Smartas - The Eclectic Hindus

[KRS]

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Dear Sri Prasad1 Ji,

Have you been reading the posts here at all?

If a valued member quits on the basis of my moderating on your harsh language - well, are you not the responsible one?

But, don't worry. There are reasons other than that. Thanks.

Regards,
KRS

The op or anyone else has a right to ask others to stick to the point, but at the same time the forum members have every right to express their views. Mr. KRSji you jumped in and started moderating without considering the precedent setting rules. I have every right to tell the poster, that he should not try to be the moderator.
You moderated my statement may be slightly. In the process we lost a learned member of the forum.

 

[tbs]

I will say, with my limited knowledge, that it is not only smartas who are eclectic but most hindus are eclectic. Some may be slower than others in identifying, selecting, understanding and adopting the eclectic aspects from various sects and some others may have been faster.

I know vaishnavites (Iyengars) who have left many of their olden taboos and customs and are mingling very well with the smartas, even including inter-marriages (not only with other tabras but also with NBs. But Shri raju here has been advocating a kind of extreme version of vaishnavism right from the beginning. That seems to me to be the crux of the present problem.

Religiosity breeds fanaticism, that is the moral of this story, imho!!

hi sangom sir,
nice words...i agreed with u....even though i am a smartha....i followed vainavam in our family tradition....we follow keethu naamam

as vaishnavas does....still we follow moderate vainavam....not the both extremes of iyengars....we are iyers with vainavam system....

generally iyengars fanatics known well to me...i was in thirupati for more than eight years....i know tengalai/vadagalai system very

welll......i put naamam ..still im a smartha ..im iyer too...

 

[sangom]

In the process we lost a learned member of the forum.

Dear Shri Prasad,

I write with specific reference to the one sentence above.

We lost a member who was perhaps even more learned (particularly in Vaishnava system and philosophy) because he had the courtesy to say that life experiences have made him turn into an atheist from being a very staunch srivaishnava. <edited and removed. Do not blame others for one exiting the forum. A member staying or leaving is his/her own choice. Nobody can force them to leave. Of all the members, i did not expect this from you Sangomji. Kindly refrain from posting such unnecessary provocative messages. It does not augur well for a person of your stature. - Praveen>


I know I am also not liked by this group because I say honestly that 72 years of life's experiences have changed me to be an agnostic. Somehow, I still continue here. I don't know why and how!

 

[sarang]

If supporting a point or a view is called jalra, then the atheist bb jalra group had the highest lung power, could quote from obscure sources of illegitimate origin, fill pages and pages of abuse information. And they feel that they are right in every word they say even when couched in such holy phrases imho etc.

They are cowards since their harsh words and ridicule are restricted to tambrams and hindus.

Dear Shri Prasad,

I write with specific reference to the one sentence above.

We lost a member who was perhaps even more learned (particularly in Vaishnava system and philosophy) because he had the courtesy to say that life experiences have made him turn into an atheist from being a very staunch srivaishnava. And your present "learned member" and a group of Jalras with similar outlooks virtually hunted out that atheist gentleman just because these Jalra group thought that an "atheist" had no place in this Forum.

There is yet another very learned member even now, and the above-said Jalra group has been trying its best to get that member also out, for reasons which are unclear, but it looks as though that member has a set of views not in conformity with this group's. They are systematically trying to get that member "incited" so that they can appeal to moderator/s and get a ban on that member!!

I consider therefore, that the absence of one such member from this Jalra group is nothing of a greater loss than what happened in the case of our atheist scholar or may happen, if this group ultimately succeeds, in the loss of the other member who is anathema to this group.

I know I am also not liked by this group because I say honestly that 72 years of life's experiences have changed me to be an agnostic. Somehow, I still continue here. I don't know why and how!

 

[sarang]

Suhrudam and vasanas.

I don't know why and how!

 

[tks]

Dear Shri Prasad,

I write with specific reference to the one sentence above.

We lost a member who was perhaps even more learned (particularly in Vaishnava system and philosophy) because he had the courtesy to say that life experiences have made him turn into an atheist from being a very staunch srivaishnava. And your present "learned member" and a group of Jalras with similar outlooks virtually hunted out that atheist gentleman just because these Jalra group thought that an "atheist" had no place in this Forum.

There is yet another very learned member even now, and the above-said Jalra group has been trying its best to get that member also out, for reasons which are unclear, but it looks as though that member has a set of views not in conformity with this group's. They are systematically trying to get that member "incited" so that they can appeal to moderator/s and get a ban on that member!!

I consider therefore, that the absence of one such member from this Jalra group is nothing of a greater loss than what happened in the case of our atheist scholar or may happen, if this group ultimately succeeds, in the loss of the other member who is anathema to this group.

I know I am also not liked by this group because I say honestly that 72 years of life's experiences have changed me to be an agnostic. Somehow, I still continue here. I don't know why and how!

Sri Sangom

I know the topic has deviated from the original theme so hopefully it will get back to the theme - be it about Smarthas or Vaishnavas or any other religious practices (which may or may not be aligned with Smaratha's world view)

In a forum with few rules no one or group ("jalra" or whatever they may be characterized) can throw anyone out.
That would mean the member leaving was a victim which I think is not the case.

Most people here who are very vocal can and do defend themselves well. They may not listen to the other views but that has not stopped them from saying whatever they please within what they perceive to be forum rules.

The reason they tend to leave is because they say something at the heat of the moment consistent with their belief system. Their expressions may be interpreted as not appropriate and hence called out publicly as wrong by someone playing the moderating role.

All this has to do with just a bit of a bruised ego and over time this will all be forgotten for most members who will return.

After all without any expenses on their part they get to spend some enjoyable "quadrant 4 time" here
If they stay angry and write everyone here off - there is no loss to anyone including for the member in my view.

Having said that I hope all those who have said
"ஒன்னோட டூ" to all the members here change their mind and come back and have more fun as they grow older

Regards

 

[zebra16]

"sarva deva namaskarah keshavam prati gacchati"

So, after all, it is Kesava and none else who is the Isvara. Therefore, vaishnavas seem to have won the fight!!

Or, is it the case that Kesava gets only the namaskArA: and all the rest like flowers, water, rose water, naivedyams etc., go to other gods - just like middle level politicians and officials eating away almost the entire assistance and the poor man Kesava getting only aid in paper!!

What is the source of this slokA please? Is it just a stand alone slokA or a part of sloka/stotra.

In many of the smArthA tradition sandhyA vandanA this sloka forms a concluding the part of the slokA/stotrA begining with namassavtire, jagateka chakushe etc.which is clearly addressed to Sun and the second part goes on to pay respects to Virinchi, nArayaNA and Sankara as "atman". not just to nArayaNa alone.

Why is Akashat pathitham toyam more important than the preceding stanzas?

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

I was requested by some of the members to continue the topic. The topic is about Smarthas and I have said almost every thing.

My last posts were only in response to posts of other members. Some of the Smartha members had posted about their following Vaishnava traditions.

That started the discussions about Smartha Vaishnavas. This may seem contradictory. But if you have gone through my posts about the evolution of Smartas, you will see that it is in keeping with that.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11296-smartas-eclectic-hindus.html

Now about Vishishtaadvaita and Dwaita. Even here the only problem that the Smartas have is the definition of Narayana and Vishnu as the only supreme God. Smartas are not comfortable with that. Otherwise the philosophies of Vishishtaadvaita and Dwaita are perfectly acceptable.

The followers came from all the sects. Initially we did have sub-classifications of Smarta-Saiva, Smarta-Vaishnava and Smarta-Sakthas. But this disappeared over a period of time. The best part of Smarta religion is that you could continue your sectarian worship. The Panchayathana Puja was a compromise. But here the central deity could be Shiva, Vishnu, Sakthi, Skanda or the Sun. The Smartas went to the extent of even allowing sectarian marks. That is how we have Nama Iyers for example.

Unfortunately my opening post which is the basic article on Smartha religion seems to have been hardly read by anyone. May be it was boring. It covered this aspect in detail.

I had all aspects including all the points raised by many members. As I said in my article

This post is an old one. This article was written to enable the Smarthas to understand their religion.

It is not against Sakthism, Saivism or Vaishnavism. Or against any Acharyas.

 

[prasad1]

Like Mr. TBS, my ancestors were also smarthas who followed Vaisnava Traditions. All my brothers have Vaishnava names.
But I do not consider myself to be of smartha religion. I am a Hindu, I follow Advaita philosophy.

It is very misleading to take a sect of a religion and call it as separate religion.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The term Sect is used for the groups which break away from a main religious group. That is how the sects of other religions are formed.

Hinduism is unique in that that it is formed by the amalgamation of a large number of groups, who were independent religions earlier.

So some of us are reluctant to call these as sects. They were independent religions. Saivism, Vaishnavism, Saktham, Ganapathyam and Koumaram. They merged together to become Hinduism. Earlier they merged to become Smarta religion/Hinduism.

That is why they are called Shanmadham. ஶண்மதம். The six religions.

I have used both the term Religion as well as Sect though I would prefer to use the term religion. I had used the term sect only because many people use it.

These are Religions and not Sects.

 

[sangom]

What is the source of this slokA please? Is it just a stand alone slokA or a part of sloka/stotra.

In many of the smArthA tradition sandhyA vandanA this sloka forms a concluding the part of the slokA/stotrA begining with namassavtire, jagateka chakushe etc.which is clearly addressed to Sun and the second part goes on to pay respects to Virinchi, nArayaNA and Sankara as "atman". not just to nArayaNa alone.

Why is Akashat pathitham toyam more important than the preceding stanzas?

Shri Zebra,

Though this sloka is recited at the end of sandhyavandanam, we have an equivalent "kAyEna vAcA...Sreeman nArAyaNAyEti samarppayAmi." which is recited usually at the end of almost all vaideeka karmas. This also refers to nArAyaNa. Even in sandhyAvandanam, we do the AvAhanam of vishNu only when we recite kESava, nArAyaNa, etc. Therefore, it is a fact that the smArta way of daily routine is very much slanted towards the vaishnavasampradAya and not to a Saiva sampradAya. Hence the more importance attached to nArAyaNa, rightly or wrongly.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Sangom,

This slant towards Vaishnavism was given by Sankaracharya. He wrote Bhashyam for Vishnu Sahasranama. Then he is the author of the poem "Bhaja govindam, Bhaja Govindam ..." The Smarthas recite Vishnu Sahasranama and not Siva Sahasranama. But this may be true only of the South Indian smarthas. But I have seen that most of the Smarthas who perform Panchayatana Puja with Siva in the middle and call it Siva Puja. You may be able to confirm this.

There may be historical reasons for all these. But all these only shows the acceptance of all the religions by the Smarthas.

BTW I am not able to find out how the Matams define Smarthas. Can anyone throw light on that?

 

[prasad1]

According to Wikipedia:

Smarta Sampradaya (Smarta Tradition, as it is termed in Sanskrit) is a liberal or nonsectarian denomination of the Vedic Hindu religion[citation needed] which accepts all the major Hindu deities as forms of the one Brahman, in contrast to Vaishnavism, Shaivism, and Shaktism, the other three major Hindu sects, which revere Vishnu, Shiva, and Shakti, respectively, as the Supreme Being. The term Smarta refers to adherents who follow the Vedas and Shastras. Only a section of south Indian brahmins call themselves Smartas now.

Smartas believe that the worshiper is free to choose a particular aspect of God to worship, to the extent that the worship practices do not contradict the Vedas and the Smritis. So in that sense an orthodox smarta is unlikely to view gods of non vedic religions favorably, even though he may hold the religion acceptable to its own traditional followers.

Smartas accept and worship the six manifestations of God, (Ganesha, Shiva, Shakti, Vishnu, Surya and Skanda) and the choice of the nature of God is up to the individual worshipper since different manifestations of God are held to be equivalent.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/philos...smarthas-shaivites-shaktas-2-a.html#post23435

Smarthas have free rein to choose whichever deity they wish to worship. They usually worship five deities (pancopasana) or panchadevata as personal formful manifestations of the impersonal Absolute, Brahman. Smarthas accept and worship the six manifestations of God, (Ganesha, Shiva, Shakti, Vishnu, Surya, and Skanda) and the choice of the nature of God is up to the individual worshiper since different manifestations of God are held to be equivalent. It is nonsectarian.


It is the Smarta view that dominates the view of Hinduism in the West as Smarta belief includes Advaita belief (Advaita was revived by Adi Sankara in India) and the first Hindu saint, who significantly brought Hinduism to the west was Swami Vivekananda, an adherent of Advaita. Not till much later, gurus, such as A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and others, brought a Vaishnavite perspective to the West.


In contrast with the Smarta/Advaita belief, the Vaishnavism and Shaivism beliefs teach a singular concept of God best explained as panentheistic monotheism or panentheistic monism.

 

[prasad1]

Hinduism consists of various sects.The main sections are Shaivism, Shaktism, Vaishnavism, and Smarthism.All these sects are based on different phylosophy but have many rituals,customs,traditions in common.

 

[palindrome]

In a forum with few rules..

Not sure about rules, but it is pretty obvious, things depend on the owner or moderator. Not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing. Just saying what it is.

After all without any expenses on their part they get to spend some enjoyable "quadrant 4 time" here

The expenses part is an other topic. But imo its not a good idea to think everyone is having an "enjoyable quadrant 4 time" here. It is obvious People are here for various reasons. Some think the world is reading their quotable quotes, record of activities such as outings, jokes, etc. Perhaps for such people this forum offers an "enjoyable quadrant 4 time" for free. There may be a readership which likes inane stuff as well. An other kind of readership is also here which looks for value based info pertaining to specific topics. Additionally, they may be here bcoz this place offers serious insights; which may not be got through real time interaction.

 

[sangom]

If supporting a point or a view is called jalra, then the atheist bb jalra group had the highest lung power, could quote from obscure sources of illegitimate origin, fill pages and pages of abuse information. And they feel that they are right in every word they say even when couched in such holy phrases imho etc.

They are cowards since their harsh words and ridicule are restricted to tambrams and hindus.

"They are cowards since their harsh words and ridicule are restricted to tambrams and hindus." because this forum is concerned with Tamil Brahmins; only idiotic people will talk about others in this forum! And that shows the kind of person writing such post!!

BTW, what is meant by "obscure sources of illegitimate (?) origin"? And do you feel that your above post qualifies well for the "abuse information" grade? Better if you realize, sooner than later, that no god has said in any scripture that he/she will give you any grace mark for you for showing such imbecility and posing as a religious mercenary.

 

[sangom]

Sangom,

This slant towards Vaishnavism was given by Sankaracharya. He wrote Bhashyam for Vishnu Sahasranama. Then he is the author of the poem "Bhaja govindam, Bhaja Govindam ..." The Smarthas recite Vishnu Sahasranama and not Siva Sahasranama. But this may be true only of the South Indian smarthas. But I have seen that most of the Smarthas who perform Panchayatana Puja with Siva in the middle and call it Siva Puja. You may be able to confirm this.

There may be historical reasons for all these. But all these only shows the acceptance of all the religions by the Smarthas.

BTW I am not able to find out how the Matams define Smarthas. Can anyone throw light on that?

I think Sankaracharya did not give any specific slant towards vaishnavism as such. Since he was a Namboothiri whose family was devoted more to Vishnu probably than to Siva, he must have gone by his family customs and traditions. Then, he had also the compulsion to expound his advaitham sticking strictly to the various pronouncements of the vedas and the (then existing) upanishads. Possibly that was why he gace a bhAshyam to vishnu sahasranamam, which is part of Mahabharata and omit Sivasahasranama which appears in purana only.

Smartha is a word which means "going by smritis". I have learnt from elders that this adjective came into vogue to distinguish those who refused to buy the line of Ramanuja (that only Vishnu is god, etc.) and continued to treat the various divinities in the Hindu pantheon, all with equal respect and devotion which is what the old custom had been. Hence the aptness of the word smriti (from memory - of time-honoured beliefs).

Usually the daily panchayana pooja is referred to in our side as தேவூசை (tevūśai); the Namboothiris call their daily pooja as தேவாரம் (tevāram) and so the non-brahmins refer to the daily poojas of all brahmins as tevāram. The term "sivapooja" is not at all used.

 

[Govinda]

Sangom,There may be historical reasons for all these. But all these only shows the acceptance of all the religions by the Smarthas.

This beats the Definition of Brahman and the Philosophy of our Srutis/Sanatana Dharma. Brahman is the Soul of all that exists, He hosts all cit (gods, ganas, jivas) and acit (all insentient matter). So, Brahman is the most exhaustive idea no one (any sect or religion) can ever come up with! There cannot be anyone more tolerant than the Sruti's concept of Brahman! This is reflected in the Upanishads and the BG.That being the case , and there are 33 devatas and 33 crore ganAs (Assistants), why did your smartAs leave out the 27 other devatAsThen how are they completely tolerant?

 

[Govinda]

I have learnt from elders that this adjective came into vogue to distinguish those who refused to buy the line of Ramanuja (that only Vishnu is god, etc.) and continued to treat the various divinities in the Hindu pantheon, all with equal respect and devotion which is what the old custom had been. Hence the aptness of the word smriti (from memory - of time-honoured beliefs).

Sangom Sir,You got that wrong. This is the Sri Ramanuja's definition of Brahman, "That supreme Person who is the ruler of all; whose nature is antagonistic to all evil; whose purposes come true; who possesses infinite auspicious qualities such as knowledge, bliss and so on; who is omniscient, omnipotent, supremely merciful; from whom the creation, subsistence, and re-absorption of this world — with its manifold wonderful arrangements, not to be comprehended by thought, and comprising within itself the aggregate of souls from Brahma down to blades of grass, all of which experience the fruits (of their previous deeds) in definite points of space and time — proceed is Brahman"

 

[கால பைரவன்]

because this forum is concerned with Tamil Brahmins; only idiotic people will talk about others in this forum! And that shows the kind of person writing such post!!

This forum is not just "about brahmins" but it is concerned with the welfare of tamil brahmins. When brahmins are criticized for their role in the society, which includes others, it is inevitable that such a discussion includes the roles of others.

Just because the title of this forum is tamilbrahmins.com and is open to all irrespective of caste, religion or creed, this forum cannot be construed as a free-for-all brahmin bashing forum even if the bashing is done by the so-called "well-wishers" of the community.

 

[sarang]

Query is about what atheistic and BB stalwarts write in other forums where BB is the main agenda. In the past one born vaishnavite turned evr loyalist said in so many words that his anti brahmin posts are exclusively reserved for this forum only!

With due respect, will you please give links, references to your expressed views in other cyber lands. Counters can be posted there if necessary. Cloud of illegitimacy is blown away if the origin and source is known.

"They are cowards since their harsh words and ridicule are restricted to tambrams and hindus." because this forum is concerned with Tamil Brahmins; only idiotic people will talk about others in this forum! And that shows the kind of person writing such post!!

BTW, what is meant by "obscure sources of illegitimate (?) origin"? And do you feel that your above post qualifies well for the "abuse information" grade? Better if you realize, sooner than later, that no god has said in any scripture that he/she will give you any grace mark for you for showing such imbecility and posing as a religious mercenary.

 

[tbs]

hi KB sir,

Just because the title of this forum is tamilbrahmins.com and is open to all irrespective of caste, religion or creed, this forum cannot be construed as a free-for-all brahmin bashing forum even if the bashing is done by the so-called "well-wishers" of the community.

i like these lines...SOMEBODY MAY SAY IM IN THE JALRA GROUP..... but i dont care.....im the jalra group or not...

BUT TRUTH IS TRUTH.....TRUTH MAY SOUR TOOO....

 

[zebra16]

.That being the case , and there are 33 devatas and 33 crore ganAs (Assistants), why did your smartAs leave out the 27 other devatAsThen how are they completely tolerant?

Please give me the vedic source for this assertion that there are 33 crore gaNAs, if possible the name(s) of the samhita/ brahmaNam/ AraNyakam/ UpaniSad.

 

[sangom]

This forum is not just "about brahmins" but it is concerned with the welfare of tamil brahmins. When brahmins are criticized for their role in the society, which includes others, it is inevitable that such a discussion includes the roles of others.

Just because the title of this forum is tamilbrahmins.com and is open to all irrespective of caste, religion or creed, this forum cannot be construed as a free-for-all brahmin bashing forum even if the bashing is done by the so-called "well-wishers" of the community.

Shri KB,

This forum is for "Brahmin community spread across the Globe" as per its logo; there is no mention that this forum is concerned with "the welfare of tamil brahmins"; it is not possible to imagine that the "Brahmin community spread across the Globe", which will include many types/kinds of brahmins will all be ready to work for the "the welfare of tamil brahmins" alone, ignoring their own group of brahmins.

By the same token, it is just possible that the other groups of brahmins may give suggestions and remarks which may not be palatable to a few; just because this minority dislikes, such remarks cannot be considered brahmin-bashing. I don't think you have any authority to make such convoluted interpretations and write as if you are the law giver for this forum.

 

[prasad1]

There is nothing wrong in self criticism or soul-searching. So all criticism should not be taken as bashing. There are constructive criticism aimed at overcoming our weakness. If we are defensive all the time, we will not move forward. I too have argued with Mr. Sangom, and Mr. Sarang. But trying to shut down anyone trying to help is counter productive.
BUT TRUTH IS TRUTH.....TRUTH MAY SOUR TOOO....