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Shame on you Mr. President Obama

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Nara

Well-known member
When the entire world is shocked and repulsed by the barbaric attitude and action of the Israeli state and its armed forces, the U.S. serves up a tepid statement to U.N. placing blame on everyone else but the perpetrator.

Israel sent a force of 1000 soldiers including their elite commando units, helicopters and fighter planes, to stop a convoy of unarmed civilians, on a humanitarian mission, in international waters, headed to a coast line that does not belong to Israel. Israel says this was a direct threat to their sovereignty and all my president could muster is "Direct delivery by sea is neither appropriate nor responsible, and certainly not effective, under the circumstances."

All Americans must hang their head in shame today.

One ashamed American ....
 
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nachi naga

Guest
When the entire world is shocked and repulsed by the barbaric attitude and action of the Israeli state and its armed forces, the U.S. serves up a tepid statement to U.N. placing blame on everyone else but the perpetrator.

Israel is surrounded by hostile neighbors.Despite that,jews are strong and unprecedented valor displayed by them.

Israel sent a force of 1000 soldiers including their elite commando units, helicopters and fighter planes, to stop a convoy of unarmed civilians, on a humanitarian mission, in international waters, headed to a coast line that does not belong to Israel. Israel says this was a direct threat to their sovereignty and all my president could muster is "Direct delivery by sea is neither appropriate nor responsible, and certainly not effective, under the circumstances."

We know partly what happened.Without full intelligence report,what else can the White House do,under the circumstances.

All Americans must hang their head in shame today.

One ashamed American ....

American's never betray friends.Israel is a staunch ally of USA.Privately a dressing down has been given,to follow restrain.It's truly unfortunate a american is ashamed,but as an Indian,i am proud of President Obama.
 

Raghy

Well-known member
Sri.Nara said:-

........All Americans must hang their head in shame today.

One ashamed American ....

Sri.Nara, Greetings. We do not know if those ships contained any arms. In the previous instances, arms had been smuggled in 'aid transportations'. 'If my neighbour is bent upon wiping me out of earth, then I would be more cautious about the goods he receives, if I can help it'. It is only self-protection. The atrocities are the perks we get with religions, I suppose!

Cheers!
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
nara,

i would go along with ragy.

first and foremost, there should have been 3rd party supervision on the ships to ensure a peaceful search so that no arms were smuggled.

also, i can believe, that there were enough folks on those ships to provoke the israeli army.

inspite of the world opinion, i think, an enquiry is needed to verify that no arms were smuggled. if it so proved, then israel can wear the dunce cap.
 

anandb

Active member
I think Israel behaves like a rogue nation. I don't know if this incident made any international headlines but a few months back Mossad agents killed a top Hamas commander in a posh hotel in Dubai. The modus operandi involving months of planning involved almost a team of 25 hit-men operating on various stolen identities of different nations. The hit men walked in full view of the CCTV cameras at the airport and the hotel and that was how their identities were established. The best part of this episode is Israeli agents used fake passports belonging to different nations based on real people and got extensive coverage in the Israeli media. Not a murmur of protest from USA, UK and some other countries whose national identities were forged. Only recently Australia in protest expelled their Israeli envoy. How on earth is Israel able to get away with acts like these?
 
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Nara

Nara

Well-known member
Hi,

now I have done it, haven't I -- I am arguing with the two people whom I could count on to be on my side :) But, I am glad to be on Anand's side which I don't get to do as often as I would like.


...
also, i can believe, that there were enough folks on those ships to provoke the israeli army.

The IDF came with helicopters, gun boats, and machine guns pointing at the unarmed civilians, in the high seas. Yet, the civilians on the ship who defended with sticks and knives -- according to Israeli sources -- are the agent provocateurs? Yes, the Israeli state says this, but they also say the west bank Palestinians boycotting goods made in the occupied territories is economic terrorism. What else can we expect from them.

Raghy, if I can extend the neighborhood metaphor a little, what if this is the neighborhood bully who has taken over part of your house and dictates to you who you can be with and when you can go out, and routinely keeps beating up on your kids. Do you think you have any rights to defend yourself?

The state of Israel is propped up mainly by the U.S. Over 3 billion in aid goes to Israel every year. Till date U.S. has given over 113 billion dollars in aid to Israel. The IDF will be nothing but for U.S. aid. Israel is armed to its teeth with nuclear weapons. It is the only military super power in West Asia. A few rockets from Hamas (I don't approve of them) can never be viewed as an existential threat to Israel, like wiping it off the earth, for it to mete out collective punishment on an entire country.

If Israel has a right to protect itself with all this weaponry, why is it unacceptable for the Palestinians to get some arms themselves? Why is that illegal? The answer here is nothing but "might is right". What if Syria declares a blockade of Israel and stops all ships from going to Israeli ports or planes from entering Israeli airspace without their approval? If they are powerful enough they could do it and justify it in whatever way they want, because the rich and powerful get to control the narrative.

It is interesting that Israel is now talking about international law and that their actions in the high seas last Monday were legal. What about the collective punishment they are meting out on the Palestinians of Gaza? Such acts are patently illegal according to the 4th Geneva conventions. What about the illegal annexation of Arab lands and settlements, they are clearly illegal. What about Rachael Corrie who was murdered in cold blood by Israeli military bulldozer demolishing the house of a Palestinian.

Israel does not care about international law, why should they, the U.S. will shield them every time. Like a spoiled brat of a rich man Israel can do whatever it wants with impunity. Even in the case of the murder of Hamas leader in a Dubai hotel that Anand cited, the British, French, and Australian governments are upset not for the grotesquely illegal act of Israel, only that their passports were used.

The entire world condemns Israeli action and wants the Gaza blockade, which is at the root of this massacre, lifted. The gaza blockade is a crime and an atrocity, says President Carter. Yet, Obama and Clinton want to condemn the "acts" that led to this incidence. Nice going, blaming the victims for provoking a bully.

Menachem Begin was once a terrorist, but a Nobel peace prize winner later on. Mandela was a terrorist to the Apartheid SA regime, who also won the Nobel peace prize later. Vanjinathan and Bhagat Sing are heroes for us, but were downright terrorists for the British. Someone does not become a terrorist just because Israel wants them to be.

I don't have to tell you the circumstances under which the state of Israel came into existence. It is one of the last colonial power plays. Wiping Israel out of the earth is with regard to the state, not the people. I am all for it as long as the means by which this is achieved is absolutely nonviolent. Both the Jews and Arabs of that land deserve to live in peace and dignity. The Arabs deserve it just as much as the Jews.

Cheers!
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
Hi,

now I have done it, haven't I -- I am arguing with the two people whom I could count on to be on my side :) But, I am glad to be on Anand's side which I don't get to do as often as I would like.



Cheers!

... you flatter yourself my friend. with friends like me, you don't need any enemies :)
 
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nachi naga

Guest
Hi,

now I have done it, haven't I -- I am arguing with the two people whom I could count on to be on my side :) But, I am glad to be on Anand's side which I don't get to do as often as I would like.

nara,you are one man army,charles bronson style :)
 
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nachi naga

Guest
... you flatter yourself my friend. with friends like me, you don't need any enemies :)

gosh,what a lethal molotove cocktails canadian tambram's are :) kunjuppu...the maple leaf never withers :)
 

anandb

Active member
Hi,

now I have done it, haven't I -- I am arguing with the two people whom I could count on to be on my side :) But, I am glad to be on Anand's side which I don't get to do as often as I would like.




The IDF came with helicopters, gun boats, and machine guns pointing at the unarmed civilians, in the high seas. Yet, the civilians on the ship who defended with sticks and knives -- according to Israeli sources -- are the agent provocateurs? Yes, the Israeli state says this, but they also say the west bank Palestinians boycotting goods made in the occupied territories is economic terrorism. What else can we expect from them.

Raghy, if I can extend the neighborhood metaphor a little, what if this is the neighborhood bully who has taken over part of your house and dictates to you who you can be with and when you can go out, and routinely keeps beating up on your kids. Do you think you have any rights to defend yourself?

The state of Israel is propped up mainly by the U.S. Over 3 billion in aid goes to Israel every year. Till date U.S. has given over 113 billion dollars in aid to Israel. The IDF will be nothing but for U.S. aid. Israel is armed to its teeth with nuclear weapons. It is the only military super power in West Asia. A few rockets from Hamas (I don't approve of them) can never be viewed as an existential threat to Israel, like wiping it off the earth, for it to mete out collective punishment on an entire country.

If Israel has a right to protect itself with all this weaponry, why is it unacceptable for the Palestinians to get some arms themselves? Why is that illegal? The answer here is nothing but "might is right". What if Syria declares a blockade of Israel and stops all ships from going to Israeli ports or planes from entering Israeli airspace without their approval? If they are powerful enough they could do it and justify it in whatever way they want, because the rich and powerful get to control the narrative.

It is interesting that Israel is now talking about international law and that their actions in the high seas last Monday were legal. What about the collective punishment they are meting out on the Palestinians of Gaza? Such acts are patently illegal according to the 4th Geneva conventions. What about the illegal annexation of Arab lands and settlements, they are clearly illegal. What about Rachael Corrie who was murdered in cold blood by Israeli military bulldozer demolishing the house of a Palestinian.

Israel does not care about international law, why should they, the U.S. will shield them every time. Like a spoiled brat of a rich man Israel can do whatever it wants with impunity. Even in the case of the murder of Hamas leader in a Dubai hotel that Anand cited, the British, French, and Australian governments are upset not for the grotesquely illegal act of Israel, only that their passports were used.

The entire world condemns Israeli action and wants the Gaza blockade, which is at the root of this massacre, lifted. The gaza blockade is a crime and an atrocity, says President Carter. Yet, Obama and Clinton want to condemn the "acts" that led to this incidence. Nice going, blaming the victims for provoking a bully.

Menachem Begin was once a terrorist, but a Nobel peace prize winner later on. Mandela was a terrorist to the Apartheid SA regime, who also won the Nobel peace prize later. Vanjinathan and Bhagat Sing are heroes for us, but were downright terrorists for the British. Someone does not become a terrorist just because Israel wants them to be.

I don't have to tell you the circumstances under which the state of Israel came into existence. It is one of the last colonial power plays. Wiping Israel out of the earth is with regard to the state, not the people. I am all for it as long as the means by which this is achieved is absolutely nonviolent. Both the Jews and Arabs of that land deserve to live in peace and dignity. The Arabs deserve it just as much as the Jews.

Cheers!

Shri. Nara,

am honored to be on your side at least on this occasion.:happy:
 

Raghy

Well-known member
Sri.Nara,

Greetings. Basically, there is one fact that I learnt about Palestine, long back; that is, it is not viable to find a permanent solution for them. Each Palestinian gets aid at the rate of 2 dollars per day; there are vested intersts who would hate to see that easy money go. Secondly, Palestinian problem is an emotional catalyst to bring one group of religious people together. This Palestinian problem is not likely to be solved. That's why after years of struggle, when the Oslo summit offered a permanent two state solution, the solution was responded with an Intifada.

People forget to mention one inportant fact - that is, Palestinians are better treated and well respected only in Israel. Palestinians have citizenship, voting riights, get all the facilities available to a Jew, and hold government offices. Palestinians are treated as scums in all the other ME countries. Infant Israel did not chase them away to refugee camps; they moved over, so that they did not want to get caught in the cross-fire when the 'arab brothers' banded together to 'wipe out the jews' in 1948. Kindly refer to history, please.

I am not inclined to believe 'pollywood' propogantas; I have seen the videos of the 'body' from a funeral 'get up and run away'. I have also seen the 'kids' stoning the soldiers for fun; also have seen the gunmen shooting in the cover of the Palestinian kids.

Hamas as an elected government refused to recognise Israel; avowed to wipe them out, attacked Israel with rockets on daily basis. 'a few rockets' amounts to about 8,000 in 3 years. When an 'elected government' resort to such tactics, I don't see any problem in Israel monitoring everything to reduce the arms reaching Gaza strip. Hamas declared war on Israel; why should it cry foul when counter-attacked?

I don't see any reason for Israel to respect world opinions. Where was the 'world opinion' when 8,000 rockets bombarded Israel? Where was the 'world opinion' when the Israeli soldiers were kidnapped for ransom?

If Palestinians lay down arms, it will be the end of a war; if Israelis lay down arms, it will be end of Israel'.

Cheers!
 
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Nara

Nara

Well-known member
Dear Raghy, you raise lots of issues all of which can be debated ad infinitum without any resolution. At the root of the latest Israeli atrocity is the Gaza blockade imposed by Israel after Hamas threw out PLA from Gaza. The stated intent was to put pressure on Hamas, not prevent weapons "smuggling". Here is what an aid to Ohmert, who was the PM at the time the blockade was imposed, said, reported in this Guardian article.
'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
Gazans have been living in a virtual prison ever since. Even then, there was relative peace. In the meantime US elections came and it was clear Obama was going to be the next president. Israelis believed in Obama's rhetoric more than Obama himself, they thought he may not be as supportive of Israel as Bush had been and wanted to take care of business before he took office.

The Israelis wanted to provoke a conflict. On November 4, 2008, they went deep into Gaza with tanks and bulldozers. This was the starting point of the present round of conflict. Hamas gave the Israelis what they wanted, rockets and mortars started raining in. No it was not 8000, it was about 3000 in total, half rockets and half mortars. In all, a grand total of 4 Israelis died as a result of these attacks. (No, I don't approve of this, every single life, Palestinian or Israeli, is precious.)

The Israeli response was as much brutal as it was comprehensive. They bombed Gaza into a concrete rubble. They fired phosphorous bombs on civilians to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. After 22 days of this barbarism, 1400 lay dead, mostly civilian including 300 children. BTW, all the military hardware used was courtesy good old USA. They even sent additional supplies during the operation. The blood of Paletinian children is on the hands of every American, including yours truly, for which I am truly ashamed -- NN take a note.

The attack was so savage that even U.S. could not prevent an inquiry. But they managed to include Hamas also in the inquiry. It was conducted by a respected jurist of Jewish descent and his report known as the Goldstone report made it clear that there was enough credible evidence of Israeli war crimes. Well, with both left and the right in the US falling over each other to support Israel it is no wonder Israel did not care one hoot about this report or any other report. The world opinion can go and #[email protected]% itself.

With the blockade still in effect, Gazans could not even begin to rebuild, guess what, cement and other construction materials are among the items banned by the blockade. If you look at the list of items banned by the blockade you wouldn't know whether to cry or laugh. You know, coriander, cumin, and ginger are banned? No jam for these Palestinians, or glucose or dried fruits or tarpaulin sheet for huts. Why, even water purification plants are not allowed, what if they attack Israel with purified water :(.

My Vice President Biden said in an interview two days ago, what is the big deal, why do they insist on going to Gaza, they can go to the port of Ahdod in Israel, they will make sure there are no weapons and get all the humanitarian stuff to Gaza. But Mr. Vice President, Israel thinks books, paper, toys, plaster, and even good old halva are weapons of mass destruction. But, more importantly, the principle of this whole operation is to break this illegal, inhumane, immoral siege of Gaza. That is the whole point Mr. Vice President.

People world over are debating this with passion. Most side with the Palestinians. Pitted against the power of the U.S. the rest of the world amount to nothing. வாய்மையே வெல்லும் is taking a beating, but I am hopeful.

Cheers!

p.s. Now, even the Obama administration thinks the blockade is untenable.
 
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nachi naga

Guest
nara,
Dear Raghy, you raise lots of issues all of which can be debated ad infinitum without any resolution. At the root of the latest Israeli atrocity is the Gaza blockade imposed by Israel after Hamas threw out PLA from Gaza. The stated intent was to put pressure on Hamas, not prevent weapons "smuggling". Here is what an aid to Ohmert, who was the PM at the time the blockade was imposed, said, reported in this Guardian article.
'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.

without USA supporting Israel,the going would be tuffbut assuming a hypothetical situation wherein USA disengages from Israel,believe me Israelis will prevail.Palestinians need a country or statehood and must be helped by other Arab nations,instead of fueling to have war with Israel.

Gazans have been living in a virtual prison ever since. Even then, there was relative peace. In the meantime US elections came and it was clear Obama was going to be the next president. Israelis believed in Obama's rhetoric more than Obama himself, they thought he may not be as supportive of Israel as Bush had been and wanted to take care of business before he took office.

obama is so smart,that clinton is doing such a awesome job.i mean,i thot colin powell was by far the best,instead she is going to nook him.israeli's need to be careful with this admin and not take it for granted as it did with bush admin.

The Israelis wanted to provoke a conflict. On November 4, 2008, they went deep into Gaza with tanks and bulldozers. This was the starting point of the present round of conflict. Hamas gave the Israelis what they wanted, rockets and mortars started raining in. No it was not 8000, it was about 3000 in total, half rockets and half mortars. In all, a grand total of 4 Israelis died as a result of these attacks. (No, I don't approve of this, every single life, Palestinian or Israeli, is precious.)

in love and war,ll is fair game.collateral damage occurs.

The Israeli response was as much brutal as it was comprehensive. They bombed Gaza into a concrete rubble. They fired phosphorous bombs on civilians to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. After 22 days of this barbarism, 1400 lay dead, mostly civilian including 300 children. BTW, all the military hardware used was courtesy good old USA. They even sent additional supplies during the operation. The blood of Paletinian children is on the hands of every American, including yours truly, for which I am truly ashamed -- NN take a note.

israel has a right to defend itself.usa is giving aid to israel.so technically,americans have killed palestinians indirectly,just as how pakistanis are killing indians thru their jihadi non-state actors,with full suppot from usa.

The attack was so savage that even U.S. could not prevent an inquiry. But they managed to include Hamas also in the inquiry. It was conducted by a respected jurist of Jewish descent and his report known as the Goldstone report made it clear that there was enough credible evidence of Israeli war crimes. Well, with both left and the right in the US falling over each other to support Israel it is no wonder Israel did not care one hoot about this report or any other report. The world opinion can go and #[email protected]% itself.

lol.ok israel knows just like pakistan,that which side of the bread is buttered.

With the blockade still in effect, Gazans could not even begin to rebuild, guess what, cement and other construction materials are among the items banned by the blockade. If you look at the list of items banned by the blockade you wouldn't know whether to cry or laugh. You know, coriander, cumin, and ginger are banned? No jam for these Palestinians, or glucose or dried fruits or tarpaulin sheet for huts. Why, even water purification plants are not allowed, what if they attack Israel with purified water :(.

this is cruel,but effective.

My Vice President Biden said in an interview two days ago, what is the big deal, why do they insist on going to Gaza, they can go to the port of Ahdod in Israel, they will make sure there are no weapons and get all the humanitarian stuff to Gaza. But Mr. Vice President, Israel thinks books, paper, toys, plaster, and even good old halva are weapons of mass destruction. But, more importantly, the principle of this whole operation is to break this illegal, inhumane, immoral siege of Gaza. That is the whole point Mr. Vice President.

actually vp was snubbed by israel.and vp is no pushover.israel is going to bomb iran suddenly,in a surprise attack sooner or later.

People world over are debating this with passion. Most side with the Palestinians. Pitted against the power of the U.S. the rest of the world amount to nothing. வாய்மையே வெல்லும் is taking a beating, but I am hopeful.

Cheers!

p.s. Now, even the Obama administration thinks the blockade is untenable.

Israel is supported by USA and by Obama admin.So,all this noise is a sideshow.
 
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Raghy

Well-known member
Sri.Nara,

Greetings to you.

The Gazablockade was not the result of PLA getting thrown out of Gaza;but, the 'elected Hamas Government's policy to refuse to recognise Israel that was formed by the UN, and the intent of Hamas to wipe out Israelis'. Hamas did not send rockets towards Israeli schools in retaliation to 'operation lead', but the operation lead was conducted in retaliation to Hamas sending rockets towards Israeli schools.

Gazans were not in any prison. Most of the employed Gazans worked in Israel, for decent wages at that. It takes time to check everyone at the crossing; the checking was imposed upon the Gazans because they went to Israel to blow the crowded buses, crowded restaurents etc. Palestinians refuse to live in peace beside Israelis; they operate with only one motto - எனக்கு இரண்டு கண்களும் போணாலும் பரவாயில்லை; அவனுக்கு ஒரு கண் போணால் சரி.

During the operation lead, Israelis warned the public before every campaign; they dropped leaflets to indicate an attack before hand; they avoided pubklic places; they targetted only the militants. On the other hand, the hamas forced the public to stay put so as to provide them shield; they attacked with the cover of women and children; they booby trapped many houses which killed Gazans too; they launched missiles from mosques, school yards and hospital primises.

You have provided the number of Gazan public killed in the operation; but, unfortunately, you have failed provide the number of Gazans killed by Hamas.

Gazans are free to enter Egypt, a brother Arab country; aren't they? Israel imposes naval blockade only in her waters. Israel has the right to stop arms reaching Gaza. With the latest ship blockade, Israel was in a situation where, if she did it she would be damned; if she didn't she would be damned.

Why do you consider poles and knives are not weapens? They are weapens, such weapens can very well kill. More over, such weapons force the oppenent away from using guns; force arm to arm combat. Unarmed indeed!

Jews were discriminated and killed all over the world for how long? about 2,000 years? Was there any country except India did not treart them badly? Didn't the Jews buy the swamps from Ottaman empire paying exhorbident prices? Didn't they turned swamps into farms? What did Arabs do? Israel has all the rights to defend herself. Period.

Cheers!
 

suraju06

Well-known member
For Israelis and the Hamas it is a question of survival. So Hamas keep firing their rockets into Israel whenever they feel there is a need for some fireworks or when they feel bored with their uneventful life. Israelis keep raiding the Gaza and the West Bank to destroy the potential of their enemies to wage a war. Occasionally they go to the extent of meticulously planning the elimination of their enemies by using fake passports a la the killing of the Hamas leader or staging a daring Mogadishu like raid on a foreign soil.

For a US citizen living in the comforts of peace and prosperity his value system is important and if it says all that the Hamas and Israelis do is wrong, he will say that and write long articles about it.

For any meeting point the Israelis should all come and live peacefully in US and the intellectuals of US should go to Israel and live there. The latter may get hit by a rocket shrapnel or if they are lucky they may come back to US to sing a different song.

cheers
 
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Nara

Nara

Well-known member
....
For a US citizen living in the comforts of peace and prosperity his value system is important and if it says all that the Hamas and Israelis do is wrong, he will say that and write long articles about it.

Dear raju, greetings!

The above is delectably vague like a seductive woman not fully covered, showing a lot but leaving a little for the imagination. But the problem is, when you leave some to the imagination of the reader people start thinking is it me he is talking about, especially when the description matches.

The only US citizen, as far as I can tell, who has written long article in this thread is, yours truly. What kind of comforts I am actually living in is impossible for you to know.

Dear Raju, if you want to participate in the discussion, please join us, all I request, and it is only a request, please avoid personal cracks.

Cheers!
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
The only US citizen, as far as I can tell, who has written long article in this thread is, yours truly. What kind of comforts I am actually living in is impossible for you to know.


Cheers!

nara,

i agree with you re personal cracks. it is an ill wind that never does any good, as you have commented elsewhere.

however, in this case, i would give raju the benefit of the doubt. this topic is a global topic, and i do not know, if raju meant you personally, when addressing the attitude of a hypothetical yank.

i heard obama's interview with larry king yesterday. true enough, i do not think, that ever in any country's history, where another country has such influence.

much as i like the jews, i think, they have used the u.s. legal system to sway u.s. policies, that sometimes may not be in the global or u.s. interests. i do not think this is going to change. there appears to be a fear of alienating the jews (!).

even prior to world war 2, when britain, to which the u.s. considers mother country, was in peril, and the u.s. was far more ango saxon than now, there were loud noices and meeting and events to oppose the war, and let germany attack anyone they wanted.

there was a significant anti u.k. and anti churchill groups active in the u.s. ofcourse, i do not think, the u.s. will send troops to defend israel, but with the proliferation of nuke weapons, it may be only a matter of time before we see that part of the world up in flames.

talking of which, south asia might not be far behind, judging from yesterday's report that pakistan has a numerical superiority of nuke arms compared to india and has a better home grown technology to deliver it. chennai, bangalore and hyderabad are within the range of pak missiles now. scary thought......s
 
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nachi naga

Guest
plain and simple,globally.christians wanting to dominate,islam is opposing domination.communits sneaking with their no god idealogy.hindus chugging in a stew pot only in india.elsewhere hindus are insignificant.but earn respect of islam,christians,judaism.

by playing judaism & islam,christians dominate,provide arms to both and enjoy the fun,with prosperity of the deal.by playing islam & hindus,christians enjoy the fun,provide arms lethal nukes technology either openly or secretly,abd prosper.

islam,waits like a patient vulture bird,untill it becomes majority,then kill all,to dominate.jews are getting killed by islam.

jews need help.lets helps judaism for a change alongwith the hindus,who need help big time.
 
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Nara

Nara

Well-known member
Dear Raghy,

It is clear that we have deep disagreement on this issue. I am not going to provide any further arguments. However, I want to correct some factual errors in your post.


...The Gazablockade was not the result of PLA getting thrown out of Gaza;but, the 'elected Hamas Government's policy to refuse to recognise Israel that was formed by the UN, and the intent of Hamas to wipe out Israelis'.

The current blockade started in June 2007, right after Hamas threw out the Palestinian Authority headed by Md. Abbas. The reason for the blockade was stated by an aid to then Israeli PM, Ohmert, that contradicts your assertion. I cited the exact quote and the reference in my last post.

Hamas did not send rockets towards Israeli schools in retaliation to 'operation lead', but the operation lead was conducted in retaliation to Hamas sending rockets towards Israeli schools.
I did not say Hamas rockets were retaliation for Operation Cast Lead (OCL). Please read what I stated carefully. The time line is well established and available in many sources online.

There was a cease fire agreement in force since about June 2008. The rocket fire came down from about 300 in May, to about 10 to 20 in July and by September 2008 it was only 5 to 10. These figures are from Israeli and UN sources, says this NYT article.

The cease fire agreement required Israel to lift the blockade they imposed in June 2007, after Hamas threw out PA, and allow shipment of goods to the normal level of 500 to 600 trucks a day. The shipments increased, but nowhere near the old levels, it went up to about 70 trucks. This can be verified from many sources including the NYT article I cited above.

Israel claims the rocket fire did not come to zero and Hamas says Israel did not live up to its obligation nowhere near the level of reduction in rocket fire.

In this environment of mutual accusations, the first major escalation came from Israel. November 4, 2008, Israel went deep into Gaza with tanks and bulldozers. This is what precipitated the issue and Hamas resumed attacks. In response, Israel conducted aerial bombardment. This continued for almost two months. Finally, Israel launched OCL by the end of December 2008.

June 2007 - Blockade starts
June 2008 Cease fire agreement - rocket fire virtually stops, shipments increase nominally
November 4, 2008 - Israel goes into Gaza and Hamas responds
All through November and December - tit-for-tat escalation from both sides
December 27, 2008 OCL starts

This is the actual time line and can be verified from a plethora of sources.


During the operation lead, Israelis warned the public before every campaign; they dropped leaflets to indicate an attack before hand; they avoided pubklic places; they targetted only the militants.
Please read Richard Goldstone's report.

Gazans are free to enter Egypt, a brother Arab country; aren't they?
No, they are not allowed to. The blockade that started in June 2007 was by both Israel and Egypt. Please do some research on this topic.


Israel imposes naval blockade only in her waters.
This is also not true. Their blockade is over Palestinian waters of Gaza and that is not Israeli waters. The Monday attack occurred in international waters by Israel's own admission.

Cheers!
 
OP
OP
Nara

Nara

Well-known member
Folks,

The act of piracy by Israel this Monday morning has riled even the rightest of right wing supporters of Israel. Here are a couple of instructive pieces.

Mossad Chief Meir Dagan, who I suspect cannot be more supportive of Israel, said on Tuesday that Israel is progressively becoming a burden on the United States. Read more about it from this Haaretz article.

Here is one by Anthony Cordesman of Center for Strategic and International studies. Cordesman was national security adviser to Sen. McCain during his presidential campaign, no left-wing loony like me. Here is what he says why US and other western powers are committed to Israel:
The fact is that the real motives behind America’s commitment to Israel are moral and ethical. They are a reaction to the horrors of the Holocaust, to the entire history of Western anti-Semitism, and to the United States’ failure to help German and European Jews during the period before it entered World War II.
It is a fact that Jews and Arabs lived side by side in Palestine before the Zionists of Europe wanted to establish their homeland there.

The Palestinians were made to pay for the white-man's shame of western-antisemitism and the Holocaust perpetrated by the Nazis. When the west gets moral guilty conscience it is some innocent who has to pay.

Cheers!
 

suraju06

Well-known member
//The above is delectably vague like a seductive woman not fully covered, showing a lot but leaving a little for the imagination. But the problem is, when you leave some to the imagination of the reader people start thinking is it me he is talking about, especially when the description matches.
The only US citizen, as far as I can tell, who has written long article in this thread is, yours truly. What kind of comforts I am actually living in is impossible for you to know.
Dear Raju, if you want to participate in the discussion, please join us, all I request, and it is only a request, please avoid personal cracks.//


My dear Nara,
I thought what I had posted was a Japanese kimono covering everything and revealing nothing to the ordinary folks while revealing everything to those who have mastered the koans of the Zen Masters. It appears it looks differently to you. No problem. I did not have anyone in particular in my mind when I mentioned about the American intellectuals. I had only the quintessential American Intellectual who was critical of the Vietnam war in the yester years(I know a few of them personally and I know in what kind of comforts they lived in US and to express their protest what kind of comforts they chose as hippies),the one who is critical of the Iraq, Afghanistan wars of today and any aggressive steps taken by Israel to safeguard its right to survive. I looked at the farce and had tried to give the entire discussion a different angle of view (Dhrishtikon). That is all. Now please read my posting once again in the light of my explanation and you will find every thing is clear. My dear friend! If I decide to join issue with you on any topic I will come straight and do that and there will be no beating around the bush. Thank you.
Cheers my friend.
 

suraju06

Well-known member
Folks,

The act of piracy by Israel this Monday morning has riled even the rightest of right wing supporters of Israel. Here are a couple of instructive pieces.

Mossad Chief Meir Dagan, who I suspect cannot be more supportive of Israel, said on Tuesday that Israel is progressively becoming a burden on the United States. Read more about it from this Haaretz article.

Here is one by Anthony Cordesman of Center for Strategic and International studies. Cordesman was national security adviser to Sen. McCain during his presidential campaign, no left-wing loony like me. Here is what he says why US and other western powers are committed to Israel:
The fact is that the real motives behind America’s commitment to Israel are moral and ethical. They are a reaction to the horrors of the Holocaust, to the entire history of Western anti-Semitism, and to the United States’ failure to help German and European Jews during the period before it entered World War II.
It is a fact that Jews and Arabs lived side by side in Palestine before the Zionists of Europe wanted to establish their homeland there.

The Palestinians were made to pay for the white-man's shame of western-antisemitism and the Holocaust perpetrated by the Nazis. When the west gets moral guilty conscience it is some innocent who has to pay.

Cheers![/QUOTE
The present generation of Americans and Europeans have already put the memories of holocaust and antisemitism behind.They remember these atrocities only as much as they remember the burnings at the stakes,Hiroshima or a My Lai. They are moving ahead with their own other nightmares. The real reason for the American support to Israelis has to be seen in the light of the realpolitic compulsions. The oil has to be kept flowing without interruption. Otherwise the American and world economy will go into a tailspin. The best way to achieve this is to keep in place the sultans and Sheikhs who will enjoy the wealth created by oil sales, sell the opiate of militant wahabism to the masses to keep them permenantly on tether and obey the master in the American Continent. To keep them disciplined and obedient there is no better way than let loose a bully in the neghbourhood and make him very powerful. Israel plays the role of a perfect bully and so it has to be supported by the master. The bully will certainly do everything possible to keep the fear alive in the minds of the sultans and sheikhs. The protesting US citizens(read intellectuals) do not matter as the amount spent on Israel is just insignificant when you look at the size of the GDP of US and in any case the farmers of the US never really bother about it as long as they get a good return on the bushels of grains they sell. Now in this sad story where is the end. It appears it is not there in sight in the near future despite the north sea/Alaskan oil reserves and the new technological breakthrough which has mastered the tecnic of extracting gas from the rocks. So the world will have to wait. And it is going to be a long wait.
 

Raghy

Well-known member
Sri Nara said:-

Dear Raghy,

It is clear that we have deep disagreement on this issue. I am not going to provide any further arguments. However, I want to correct some factual errors in your post.

Sri.Nara, Greetings. I am not interested in an argument either. I take the post #20 in this thread as the final word in this matter. Thanks for pointing out the factual errors in my post. Few factual errors are not going to convince me to change my mind. I studied this issue not from few incidents only. However, thanks very much.

Cheers!
 
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