Secularism...No Religion please...

[KRS]

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Dear Narayanee Ji,

Please see this: Communalism Watch: State subsidy for pilgrimages not against secularism

Looks like The Govt. of India subsidizes Yatras for Hindus to Manasarovar and Sikhs to Pakistani Sikh shrines as they are in foreign lands.

Also the Indian Govt. spends quite a bit of money for Hindu festivals like Kumbh Mela etc. on infratsructure and facilities.

I have looked in to the Govt. subsidy for Haj. The Haj pilgrim gets his travel 'subsidized' only on Air India. He pays almost half of what a commercial airplane ticket would cost and this subsidy is available only on Air India. And since Air India packs them in on these charted flights, I bet the Indian Govt. overall makes money. These also generate goodwill. There is nothing wrong with that for a country with the second most muslim population in India.

By the way, do you know that muslims by and large do not like the subsidy as they are supposed to pay for the Haj by themselves. But since this is helping a huge number of poor muslims, they are remaining silent.

This lament about Haj has been there for a long time with the Hindutva folks, but when BJP was in power, they did not stop it, for obvious reasons.

I think this issue is used to create unnecessary communal hatred.

Regards,
KRS

 

[RVR]

Our politicians are playing vote bank politics using religion and caste. Tamilnadu government introduced reservations for both muslims and christians. But christians forced the government to withdraw reservation since they felt they get better percentage under BC quota instead of a small percentage in the Christian Quota.

Even if everybody wants to give up religion and caste, our politicians will not allow us to do so. It is very easy and convenient for them to play caste, religion and language politics rather than development agenda.

 

[v.lalithakumar]

well said shri r.venkataramani sir.politicians are playind the divide and riule policy in case of cast,creed annd religion for the vote bank purposes.god alone can save.with namaskars.v.lalithakumar

 

[vijisesh]

A Few ideas that could help .........

COMMON MINIMUM PROGRAM -

1) ERADICATE POVERTY

2) PROVIDE EDUCATION TO ALL IRRESPECTIVE OF HIS SOCIAL STATUS

3) REMOVE RESERVATION

4) PROVIDE EMPLOYMENT TO ATLEAST ONE BREAD OWNER OF A FAMILY

5) HAVE TRANSPARENCY IN POLICIES AND PROCEDURES

6) ENSURE JUSTICE IS EQUAL FOR A LAYMAN AND A WEALTHY PERSON.

7) CHECK AND ELIMINATE ILLEGAL ELEMENTS FROM SOCIETY

8) BRING FAITH BACK IN THE PEOPLE THAT THE GOVT MEANS WHAT THEY SAY

9) PROVIDE HEALTH CARE FOR THE POOR

10) LET THE YOUTH OF INDIA HAVE A CHANCE TO VOICE THEIR OPINION !!!

 

[Singleliner]

8) BRING FAITH BACK IN THE PEOPLE THAT THE GOVT MEANS WHAT THEY SAY

!!!

If not now, when before, people had a good faith in Govt?

Nehru or British or Moguls Chanakya or vedic times?

 

[kunjuppu]

A Few ideas that could help .........

COMMON MINIMUM PROGRAM -

1) ERADICATE POVERTY

2) PROVIDE EDUCATION TO ALL IRRESPECTIVE OF HIS SOCIAL STATUS

3) REMOVE RESERVATION

4) PROVIDE EMPLOYMENT TO ATLEAST ONE BREAD OWNER OF A FAMILY

5) HAVE TRANSPARENCY IN POLICIES AND PROCEDURES

6) ENSURE JUSTICE IS EQUAL FOR A LAYMAN AND A WEALTHY PERSON.

7) CHECK AND ELIMINATE ILLEGAL ELEMENTS FROM SOCIETY

8) BRING FAITH BACK IN THE PEOPLE THAT THE GOVT MEANS WHAT THEY SAY

9) PROVIDE HEALTH CARE FOR THE POOR

10) LET THE YOUTH OF INDIA HAVE A CHANCE TO VOICE THEIR OPINION !!!

viji,

this sounds like a political manifesto, though from which part of the spectrum, i cannot fathom!

if life were only so easy.

a couple of years ago, there was a plan by the tamil nadu government to conscript all medical college students, to serve in the rural areas for 2 years after graduation.

if i remember right, in the face of a growing protest, the government backpeddled.

such is the state of even a minute progressive action in our democracy. or in any democracy for that matter.

all your suggestions could be implemented in china, at the swipe of a wand from the head commissar. but who wants to live in china?

maybe we can start with few small steps?

how about picking up our own litter in the street and avoid spitting on the roads with a mouth full of vethlapaakku for starters?

 

[narayanee]

நன்றி..கே.ஆர்.எஸ்ஜி.

உங்களுடைய இணைப்பைப் பார்த்தேன்.அதில் மத்திய அரசு எந்த அளவிற்கு ஹஜ் விஷயத்தில் சப்பைக்கட்டு கட்டுகிறது என்பது நன்கு தெரியும்.அதாவது, அரேபிய நாடுகளுடன் உறவைப் பலப்படுத்துவதற்காக என்று சொல்லப்படுவதை என்னால் ஒத்துக் கொள்ள முடியாது.அரேபிய நாடுகள் பாகிஸ்தான் பக்கம் தான் இருப்பார்களே தவிர, நம் பக்கம் இருக்கவே மாட்டார்கள்.

ஹஜ் யாத்திரைக்கு தலைக்கு ரூபாய் 20000 செலவழிக்கப்படுகிறது, சுமார் 1 லட்சம் பயணிகளுக்கு.ஆனால், மானசசரோவர் செல்லும் 1000க்கும் குறைவான யாத்ரீகர்களுக்கு, சுமார் 3250 மட்டும் தான் செலவழிக்கப்படுகிறது.ஒரு வேளை அதனால் தான், என் மனதில் இது பதியவில்லையோ என்று தெரியவில்லை.

http://newstodaynet.com/printer.php?id=15306

அது மட்டுமல்ல,மானசசரோவருக்கு ஒவ்வொரு ஆண்டும், உயர்நீதி மன்றத்தின் அனுமதி பெற வேண்டும்.ஹஜ்ஜுக்கு அப்படியல்ல.கிட்டத்தட்ட 50 ஆண்டுகளாக இருந்து வரும் நடைமுறை.

சமீபத்தில் ஜெருசலேம் விஷயத்தில், ஹைதராபாத் உயர்நீதி மன்றம், மானசசரோவருக்கும் சேர்த்துத் தடை விதித்துள்ளது.
http://www.hindu.com/2009/07/23/stories/2009072358590100.htm

Thanks KRSji.

I saw your link also. I could sense how the centre tries to backstop the Haj subsidy issue before the courts, by saying that it would foster the relationship with arab world when the reality is just opposite.

Considering the grant of susbsidy that is given to muslims, what hindus going to Manasasarovar, getting is just a peanut.Probably that is why, manasasarovar susbsidy did not impress me.

Regarding Kumb mela, it is the duty of the government, where its people is converging at a point in such a large number, like police bandobust to ramjan procession .

 

[RVR]

Dear Ms.Narayanee ji,

The Governments both at the centre and states play only vote bank politics. Hindus as community doesn't vote as a block. Whereas minorities vote as a block. This is happening because illeteracy among Muslims is one of the highest. Governments both at Centre and State doesn't want literacy to develop among Muslims because once they get educated, they will start reading news papers, analyse things and may be able to identify the true colours of our politicians.

Subsidy for haj pilgrims etc are peanuts to grab just votes. Real development of poor and downtrodden among muslims will empower them which the Governments are not willing to do for obvious reasons.

I feel we should pity poor and downtrodden people of all the communities for the indifferent attidude of the Governments

 

[Singleliner]

நாராயணீ ஜி , ஹஜ்ஜை குறித்து சிறிது தேடல் செய்தேன். 150 கோடி சர்க்கார் செலவு செய்கிறதாம் .

சில விஷயங்கள் எனக்கு மனசிலகாவில்லை. சரியான குழப்பம் . என்னை கேட்டால், எல்லா மத சார்பான சந்மனியாங்களை நிறுத்தவேண்டும், .. தசரா , காளி பூஜை ,ஓணம் எல்லாம் சர்க்கார் செலவுதான்.

. திருப்பதிக்கு போஹும் தூர எக்ஸ்பிரஸ் பயண ரயில் , அனேகமாக மானிய மலிவு டிக்கெட்டில் பஸ்ஸெந்செர் வண்டியாக செல்கிறது ... இது நம்மில் பலர் அறியாத விஷயம் .

அதுதான் ஜீவனுள்ள மதசார்பின்மை என்பது

Naryanee, Haj is a pea nut money of Rs.150Cr when compared to our GDP or govt. spending, and its not good to break our heads and create animonsity.

Im still not clarified with my idea of True Secularism. Govt. spends money on every religion. Dusserah, Oonam, Kali Puja's are all done in a grand way with Govt. money. Most of the long distance trains to Tirupathi are categorised as 'Passenger Train' which runs of low fare tickets.. An indirect support which govt gives us, which many of us doesnt know.I feel, the govt should stop all the religious spendings.

 

[RVR]

Dravidian parties conferences are conducted regularly and those who are attending it are not even buy tickets for the travel. Atleast people who visit religious places buy tickets.

 

[Singleliner]

Dravidian parties conferences are conducted regularly and those who are attending it are not even buy tickets for the travel. Atleast people who visit religious places buy tickets.

Before blaming DK's for all the ill fall , could you please name a few parties, which had never used govt machinery?

 

[RVR]

Before blaming DK's for all the ill fall , could you please name a few parties, which had never used govt machinery?

Communist parties don't use the government machinery

 

[Singleliner]

Communist parties don't use the government machinery

In good spirits with my daily child hood habit of reading Hindu and filter coffee, I give up!!. Thank you.

 

[silverfox]

I wonder if this subsidy to Haj to muslims has ever been challenged in a court of law; if so, what was the verdict? Why does the Indian government, contrary to the Constitution, favor only the muslim community in subsidies?
Is there such a thing called "separation of Church and State" in India?
Thank you.

 

[Singleliner]

Is there such a thing called "separation of Church and State" in India?
Thank you.

Even, in a country, which claims the 'Church and State are separate, still, they print their currency notes say "In God We Trust' and Christmas is the longest holiday session. Yet another country of the same has a national anthem starting with a prayer 'God Save The Queen' and Germany still taxes the citizens and officially pass the funds the catholic schools. George Bush, a baptist, breaks his protocol and goes in to the Andrew airport to receive Benedict,which no American president has done so far.

I think I am right in saying, true secularism doest exist.

 

[silverfox]

Mr. Singleliner:
I wasn't talking about 'church and state' in a literal sense; I was asking if the Indian Constitution has that provision. (I used C&S for want of a better word, ). We all know that there is no such thing as 'true secularism'.

Since you volunteered to answer the second part my question, how about the first one? Indian govt., giving subsidy to muslims for Haj but not to Hindus/Christians/Sikhs/Buddhists .... (include any other religion here!). The question I posed was: has anyone challenged this? Or, maybe this has been written into the Indian Constitution?

 

[Singleliner]

Since you volunteered to answer the second part my question, how about the first one? Indian govt., giving subsidy to muslims for Haj but not to Hindus/Christians/Sikhs/Buddhists .... (include any other religion here!). The question I posed was: has anyone challenged this? Or, maybe this has been written into the Indian Constitution?

Post number 26 by KRS throws some light on this. I think every religion in India enjoys some kind of govt patronage, which should be taken off

 

[silverfox]

Thank you, singleliner!

Now will someone post how to go about applying for this subsidy so that some of my Hindu friends can go to Manasarovar!:lol:

 

[[email protected]]

To All If any body wanted to know about secularisam pl travel in Tamilnadu Bus and read the Pob stickers one can understand secularisam ( Words by MK) s.r.k.

 

[RVR]

Thank you, singleliner!

Now will someone post how to go about applying for this subsidy so that some of my Hindu friends can go to Manasarovar!:lol:

Please visit the following site where details of subsidies provided by various state governments are given


Outlooktraveller.com

 

[narayanee]

Dear Ms.Narayanee ji,

The Governments both at the centre and states play only vote bank politics. Hindus as community doesn't vote as a block. Whereas minorities vote as a block. This is happening because illeteracy among Muslims is one of the highest. Governments both at Centre and State doesn't want literacy to develop among Muslims because once they get educated, they will start reading news papers, analyse things and may be able to identify the true colours of our politicians.

Subsidy for haj pilgrims etc are peanuts to grab just votes. Real development of poor and downtrodden among muslims will empower them which the Governments are not willing to do for obvious reasons.

I feel we should pity poor and downtrodden people of all the communities for the indifferent attidude of the Governments

உங்கள் வாதத்தை ஒத்துக் கொள்ள இயலாமைக்கு வருந்துகிறேன், வெங்கட்ரமணிஜி.இந்தியாவில் சிறுபான்மையினருக்கு நல்ல மரியாதை.நாம் ஒரு குஜராத்தை வைத்தோ அல்லது ஒரு காந்தமாலை வைத்தோ பார்க்க முடியாது.அவைகள் கூட ஏன் நடந்தன?

இதில் பிரச்சனை என்னவென்றால், முஸ்லிம்களில் படிப்பவர்கள் ஆர்வம் குறைவு.அதற்காக அங்கே படிப்பவர்கள் இல்லை என்று சொல்லி விட முடியாது தான்.ஆனால், அவர்களின் கவனம் வேறு எங்கேயோ இருக்கிறது.இன்னும் சொல்லப் போனால், மதராசாவிற்கு மத்திய, மாநில அரசுகள் தரும் மரியாதை, சமஸ்கிருதக் கல்லூரிக்கு தருவதில்லை.

I regret to inform you that I disagree with you , Shree venkatramaniji.I feel minority communities do enjoy considerable clout of respect than the majority hindus.We can not see their treatment through the prism called Gujarat or Kandhamal?why they happened, first of all?

The problem with muslim in general is, they don't generate enough interest in education. Their concentration is elsewhere.Infact, the respect that is bestowed on Madarasa is gaining momentum than the one that is shown on Sanskrit colleges.( I think, in nutshell, the problem is not with Government, central or state..but with the mindset of that community who is wedded to their religion and nothing else.)

 

[RVR]

Ms.Narayanee ji,

You can disagree with me. I fully appreciate your feelings.

My argument is Governments both at Centre and States after independence have knowingly or deliberately ignored education particularly at School Level. Kerala has achieved 90% literacy(Considered as 100% as per Govt norms) where Muslims constitute approx 25% of the population. It means literacy levels among Muslims in Kerala also at higher levels.

The moment people are able to read and write, they will improve their knowledge. Politicians don't want that. They want to offer some freebies and manage to get votes at the appropriate time. Still election symbol is not abolished because illeteracy continues.

After more than four decades of rule, Dravidian parties in Tamilnadu have managed to keep 27% of the population illeterate. It means they have an hidden agenda not to educate people for obvious reasons.

35% of the people at all India level cannot read and write. Why this is happening?

 

[narayanee]

Ms.Narayanee ji,

You can disagree with me. I fully appreciate your feelings.

My argument is Governments both at Centre and States after independence have knowingly or deliberately ignored education particularly at School Level. Kerala has achieved 90% literacy(Considered as 100% as per Govt norms) where Muslims constitute approx 25% of the population. It means literacy levels among Muslims in Kerala also at higher levels.

The moment people are able to read and write, they will improve their knowledge. Politicians don't want that. They want to offer some freebies and manage to get votes at the appropriate time. Still election symbol is not abolished because illeteracy continues.

After more than four decades of rule, Dravidian parties in Tamilnadu have managed to keep 27% of the population illeterate. It means they have an hidden agenda not to educate people for obvious reasons.

35% of the people at all India level cannot read and write. Why this is happening?

இதனையும் நான் ஒத்துக் கொள்ள முடியாது
வெங்கட்ராமன் ஜி.காரணம், எந்த அரசியல்வாதியும் இப்போதெல்லாம் படிக்க விரும்புபவர்களைத் தடுப்பதில்லை.மாறாக ஊக்குவிக்கிறான்.அதனால் தான்,ஸ்ரீபெரும்புதூரைச் சுற்றி,பொறியியல் கல்லூரிகள் முளைத்து விட்டன;அது போல்,மகாபலிபுரம் போகும் வழியெல்லாம்.

அவனுக்கு பணம் பண்ண இது ஒரு சாதனம்.

ஆரம்பக் கல்வி என்று எடுத்துக் கொண்டால், தட்டுத் தடுமாறி படிக்கிறார்கள்..ஆனால், அவர்களின் பொருளாதாரம் வேலைக்கு செல்ல கட்டாயப்படுத்துகிறது.

அதனால் தான் சிறுவர்களைக் கட்டாயமாகப் பள்ளியில் சேர்க்க வேண்டும் என்ற சட்டத்தை இன்றைக்கு கபில்சிபில் கொண்டு வந்திருக்கிறார்.

ஆனால், முஸ்லிம் மதத்தில் அவர்கள் மதம் குறுக்கிட்டு, அவர்கள் பெண்களை ஓரளவிற்கு மேல் படிக்க விடுவதில்லை.இருந்தாலும்,ஓரளவிற்கு இந்தியாவில் அவர்களும் படித்துக் கொண்டு தான் இருக்கிறார்கள்.

இன்னும் சொல்லப் போனால், தமிழகத்திலேயே சமச்சீர் கல்வித் திட்டம் நடைமுறைப் படுத்தப்பட உள்ளது.

நீங்கள் கொடுத்துள்ள கேரள புள்ளிவிவரத்தில் 25 விழுக்காடு முஸ்லிம்களும் படிக்காமல் இருந்திருக்க மாட்டார்கள்.
இந்தியா,உயர் கல்வித் தரத்தில் சற்று பின் தங்கியிருந்தாலும், அங்கே எக்கச்சக்க புத்திசாலிகள், எல்லா மதத்திலும் இருக்கத் தான் செய்கிறார்கள்.

இது எப்பசாத்தியம்?இந்தியா முன்பு போல் இல்லை.
மாறி வருகிறது.தினமும்.

I disagree with you again, venkatramaniji. Nowadays, lot of enginnering colleges sprout around Sriperumpudur in Chennai and en route to Mahabalipuram etc., How it is possible?Politicians are behind them. For them, it is money spinning device.Hence,nowadays, that is not the issue. Of course in primary school , everybody attempts to enrol their wards..but the ground reality force them to drop out. That is why, current union Human resource minister, Kabil Sibal has introduced a law making it to "right to education ".India may be lagging behind the quality of education, comparing to the west; but there is no dearth of intellegent people there.How it is possible?
(In fact Obama used to compare Indians and Chinese with American students, regularly praising the former)

U gave statistics on Kerala Muslims. I don't think entire 25 %will be illeterates.

India is not, what it was before!It is changing and daily.

 

[RVR]

I fully agree with your view that education is highly commercialised in Tamilnadu at all levels including schools and colleges. Politicians both at ruling and opposition control directly or indirectly these educational institutions. They exploit innocent public with high capitation fee and exorbitant tuition fee.

My point is 27% of the people in Tamilnadu are still unable to read and write. Dravidian parties after more than four decades of rule are keeping more than one fourth of the population without even school education. Why are they keeping like that? Is there any hidden agenda to keep that like that? or is it vote bank politics?

I studied under free education during schooling under congress rule. Kamaraj made school education free. Today government schools doesn't have teachers. Every village has got a liquor shop with full fledged staff and works round the clock. But village schools doesn't have teachers.

Literacy alone will help in controlling exploitation

Cinema and Liquor are the two eyes of Dravidian parties. Not education.
சினிமாவும் சாராயமும் திராவிட இயக்கத்தின் இரண்டு கண்கள்
கல்வி அறிவு புகட்டுவது அல்ல

 

[silverfox]

Dear Ms. Narayanee:
Referring to your comment about President Obama comparing Indian students with American students: Not so fast, Ms. Narayanee! He is only comparing the Indian students who were born/raised here in the USA; I don't believe he is talking about the Indian students in India!! Of course, the Indian/Chinese students do extremely well against the American (white) students; Indian/Chinese are the most affluent group in the USA; added to this, education is imbibed into both Asian (In the US, Asian means only Chinese/Japanese/Korean) and Indian minds.
Here in the US, people always talk about 'smart' Indians! But the average American meets only the
'cream of the crop' and naturally he/she thinks ALL Indians are smart!! Of course, there are people like me who somehow fell thru the crack of this 'crème de la crème'!!
I wish I could type this in Tamil also!

[quote: Narayanee: India may be lagging behind the quality of education, comparing to the west; but there is no dearth of intelligent people there.How it is possible?
(In fact Obama used to compare Indians and Chinese with American students, regularly praising the former)]