Reservation for Brahmins

[Nara]

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With 69% reservation in TN, there is 31% open seats that the 3% Brahmins of TN can compete for, no? If Brahmins go for reservations, what if only 3% of seats are allotted to Brahmins and nothing more?

Cheers!

 

[Iyest]

rkb,

there is, i suspect, a rather naive approach, in going enmasse to one political party. under current politics, tb flocking to bjp is the kiss of death for bjp in tamil nadu.

Need not be. Remember a few years back Rajnikant came close to joining the BJP. What if something like that happens? TN politics is based on a cult following.

while we often compare ourselves to the jews, we need to learn about their political savvy in the usa. they are only 2% of the population, and yet hold political power, way out of proportion of their numbers, right across the political spectrum.

There are major differences between the USA and India. The most important being 1) The Jews were never hated in the USA by others and no party blames them for all ills. If anything there was sympathy for them after WW II. 2) There is no explicit reservation in USA, only "equal opportunity". 3) No party tries to capture power by pitting one religious group against another.

to start off, i think, we need to embrace the dravidian parties.

This is exactly what happened in the last assembly elections when ******* supported the DMK and the leader thought there would be some rewards for doing that when the DMK won. Nothing of that sort happened.

considering how rigid our caste identity re superiority of the brahmins, prevails here, i very much doubt this will happen.

Please elaborate how you came to such a conclusion. I don't see the caste identity of Brahmins to be more rigid than other castes in TN. In fact look at some other castes like Vanniyars, Thevars etc for example. See what happens when there is inter caste marriage between such groups.

the only way, i think, we have any chance of acquiring political presence in tamil nadu, is to become dravidian ourselves. which, i suspect, a majority of us, are unwilling to do so.

Nobody can "become" anything other than what they are. India is a democracy, not a middle eastern fanatic-stan that demands forcible conversion in the name of integration. By your argument, all Muslims, Sikhs etc must become Hindus which they have not done even after 400 years. Last but not least, the dravidian ideology is based on the rationalist movement that mocks the brahmin belief system. Embrace requires affection, not hatred. It is not possible. Jews could never integrate with Nazis. They still cannot integrate with Muslims in Iran.

we would rather leave than integrate.

Again,this is a natural act of self preservation that has happened throughout history.

 

[kunjuppu]

iyest,

that was funny, that you mentioned ******* supporting dmk in the last elections.

i have found ******* to be a naive, inept, inefficient and above all faction ridden organization of backward thinking brahmins. they really have no hope of influencing anyone anywhere in the modern tamilnadu political spectrum, which is too sophisticated for this kind of naivity.

to know how to play key roles and influence from within and behind, we should take a leaf or two from the christians and the muslims. we simply do not know, do not care, arrogant enough not to accept our ignorance - in the realm of political influencing.

btw, the jews were and still despised, by a sizeable section of the u.s. white community, including catholics and certain right wing evangelicals.

rajni embraced bjp and both rajni & bjp faded into political oblivion. the dravidian ideology of today, is quite different from its periyar based roots. instead of banishing all of periyar's propagation, i think, we can safely remove the rantings, and find really worthwhile points of moral and spiritual improvements for us. if you do not subscribe to this, just retrospect on some of your own values, and wonder at how it has changed, vis a vis, your parents' or grandparents'.

all for the better ofcourse. our souls are cleaner than our ancestors, i believe.

 

[pannvalan]

Reservation system in India in general and in Tamilnadu in particular works in a funny way. Apart from the quota reserved, the communities concerned can compete under open/merit quota too. The meritorious among the OBCS/MBCS/SC/ST/DNT are first accommodated under open quota, along with others. People of lesser merit or no merit belonging to these communities are then accommodated under reserved quota. So, in effect, they get a larger pie than what was intended.

Precisely this is the reason why students of FC cannot dream of securing admission in Medical colleges unless they get 199.5% cut off marks and for govt/premier colleges of engineering, this cut off marks must be not less than 196%.

The most cruel part is this reservation system continues for direct employment not only for lower grade/rank posts, but also for higher grade/rank posts. And thereafter, even for promotions, reservation system is followed. This makes a truly deserving youth getting dejected and despondent and sometimes, perverted too.

No political party or a judicial system is willing to accept any change in the present system. (They want sub-quota even under 30% reservation meant for women proposed recently).

Only silver lining is - as I repeatedly tell my close friends - with larger privatisation under economic liberalisation and globalisation, 3 evils will be destroyed all at a time.

1. Reservation based admission/employment 2. Imposition of Hindi in unwanted areas
3. Caste and Region based HR policies.

 

[nachi naga]

the only solution is breed breed breed,the population of tambrahms is stagnant as we have become evolved with limited populace,its all numbers game ie reservation

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Most of us are old. The present generation is not all too inclined. So, like the celebrities the community should campaign and plan purchases of orphaned or illegitimate children from the market and nurture them. Irandu maangais with one stone!

 

[nachi naga]

Most of us are old. The present generation is not all too inclined. So, like the celebrities the community should campaign and plan purchases of orphaned or illegitimate children from the market and nurture them. Irandu maangais with one stone!

saar,

old is gold,super solution.this is best to bust reservation.

 

[Iyest]

Reservation system in India in general and in Tamilnadu in particular works in a funny way. Apart from the quota reserved, the communities concerned can compete under open/merit quota too. The meritorious among the OBCS/MBCS/SC/ST/DNT are first accommodated under open quota, along with others. People of lesser merit or no merit belonging to these communities are then accommodated under reserved quota. So, in effect, they get a larger pie than what was intended. Precisely this is the reason why students of FC cannot dream of securing admission in Medical colleges unless they get 199.5% cut off marks

No. Reservation has always worked that way. And it is exactly as intended. It would be too obvious to say that "FC's are not admitted" and constitutionally invalid. So it has been done in this manner, making it mathematically impossible to get admitted to medical colleges.

The most cruel part is this reservation system continues for direct employment not only for lower grade/rank posts, but also for higher grade/rank posts. And thereafter, even for promotions, reservation system is followed. This makes a truly deserving youth getting dejected and despondent and sometimes, perverted too.

This has also remained the same for nearly 40 years now.

No political party or a judicial system is willing to accept any change in the present system. (They want sub-quota even under 30% reservation meant for women proposed recently).

They cannot. Political compulsions are such that they are based purely on numbers. In TN the number of people poisoned by Brahmin hatred is many times the population of Brahmins themselves. And as I said earlier, judges in India are political tools who have no sense of justice at all when it comes to caste. The SC has been sitting on the quantum of reservation case since 1993!

Only silver lining is - as I repeatedly tell my close friends - with larger privatisation under economic liberalisation and globalisation, 3 evils will be destroyed all at a time.

Again, your silver lining is going to be short lived. I will wager 5 kilos of halwa that within the next 10 years there will be some form of reservation in the private sector also. What happens then?

 

[Iyest]

With 69% reservation in TN, there is 31% open seats that the 3% Brahmins of TN can compete for, no? If Brahmins go for reservations, what if only 3% of seats are allotted to Brahmins and nothing more?

Look at it this way. Going by the figures in 2006 (as far as I can remember), there were approximately 1300 medical college seats. Out of which around 100 went to FC under the open competition category. Now this works out to about 7.5% of the seats (not 31%) but the population of those not covered by any reservation (at that time) was around 13%. Things have continued to trend in this direction and now I very much doubt whether the number of Brahmins admitted is higher than 1%. That would be roughly around 15 seats for 15 medical colleges. So roughly you have one per campus! Though it is very much possible that some campus does not have any.

Getting a reservation quota of 3 or 3.5% would be nearly a four fold increase! The point here being that more than half the seats in the open competition quota again goes to the wealthy BC.

 

[pannvalan]

My prescription is only this.

1. Implement 'creamy layer' concept with immediate effect.

2. Don't add any further castes to the existing list of BC/SC/ST.

3. On the contrary, conduct a survey every 10 years (which shall be reduced to
5 years frequency in future), based on various castes, their social and economic
status, keep on removing or upgrading the existing castes, so that only the
truly downtrodden and oppressed communities get the benefit of reservation.

Demanding reservation for Brahmins will make us defenceless and we will lose our locus standi to complain against the very same system that deprived our youth of golden opportunities in their prime age.

Hmm... when all this is going to happen?

 

[Iyest]

the only solution is breed breed breed,the population of tambrahms is stagnant as we have become evolved with limited populace,its all numbers game ie reservation

Another option is to migrate. Brahmins have been doing it for decades now and that is good. Those who migrate abroad for good have made their decision and we must respect that. But the migration pattern within India is not well planned. I have known a few who migrated to Kanpur or Lucknow but most go where the immediate opportunities are, not realizing that their children and grand children will face a situation not very different from TN when growing up. The fact is that there are few places in south india with potential for Brahmins except some districts in Kerala. The best places for some political clout would be UP, Delhi or Uttarkhand. Sadly brahmins hardly consider these things in their decisions. It is cold no doubt, but such is the reality of raw numbers and political clout.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Shri nachi naga

saar,

old is gold,super solution.this is best to bust reservation.

You are trying to stir the animal in us. Please do not disturb, we are cudding.

 

[pannvalan]

One of my Rajasthani acquaintances told that brahmins constitute 30% in Rajasthan. Is it true?

Another piece of information. After 1931, in the independent India, no caste based census has been taken for obvious reasons.

In 2011 census also, surveyors have been instructed not to include any question on caste - directly or indirectly.

 

[Iyest]

My prescription is only this.

1. Implement 'creamy layer' concept with immediate effect.

2. Don't add any further castes to the existing list of BC/SC/ST.

3. On the contrary, conduct a survey every 10 years (which shall be reduced to
5 years frequency in future), based on various castes, their social and economic
status, keep on removing or upgrading the existing castes, so that only the
truly downtrodden and oppressed communities get the benefit of reservation.

First let us shake off our stupidity and understand that nobody cares about any prescription from brahmins. Ask MLA S.V.Shekar! As far as the majority is concerned, everything is fine just the way it is and TN is a shining example of 'social justice'. We will be just another dog barking at the sun with our impotent prescriptions.

Hmm... when all this is going to happen?

Obviously, never.

 

[Iyest]

One of my Rajasthani acquaintances told that brahmins constitute 30% in Rajasthan. Is it true?

I am sure it is wrong. I think the population of FC could be high in Rajasthan though even then 30% seems high.

 

[Nara]

......... Out of which around 100 went to FC under the open competition category. Now this works out to about 7.5% of the seats (not 31%)

But the point is not how many get in, but how many seats are available for Brahmins to compete.

Anyone caught in between 50% and 69% are added to the overall pool. So, for FC at least 31% seats are available, if they can make the cut. I remember reading some years ago that more than 15 of the top ranks in the medical admissions open list were garnered by BC/MBC. The first FC was like 18 or 19.

With only about 1400 seats available the competition is stiff. Perhaps some of the best and the brightest are not that interested in MBBS and are attracted by more lucrative options elsewhere. Whatever the case may be, Brahmins are unable to garner seats in the same proportion as their population size, even though 10 times their population proportion is available for them to grab. If Brahmins are all they are cracked up to be, should it not be a cake walk for them to get at least 10% of the remaining 31% of the seats? Why are they not making the cut?

Cheers!

 

[Iyest]

But the point is not how many get in, but how many seats are available for Brahmins to compete.

That is NOT the principle being used in admissions throughout India. Then, the entire reservation policy will fall apart for all the castes. Without any reservation, everybody can compete for 100% of the seats.

Anyone caught in between 50% and 69% are added to the overall pool. So, for FC at least 31% seats are available, if they can make the cut. !

WRONG. 31% of the seats are available for ALL castes - FC, BC, MBC, SC, ST. In other words, these seats are open to all without any reservation.

I remember reading some years ago that more than 15 of the top ranks in the medical admissions open list were garnered by BC/MBC. The first FC was like 18 or 19.

Yes, that has been the trend since the mid 70's. You see, even if reservation is scrapped, and the entire 1400 seats decided on open competition, the FC's in general including the Brahmins might end up with around 10-15% of the seats. That is all. The SC/ST will be adversely affected no doubt. The BCs only slightly.

With only about 1400 seats available the competition is stiff. Perhaps some of the best and the brightest are not that interested in MBBS and are attracted by more lucrative options elsewhere.

Highly unlikely. When the cut off is 199.5 out of 200, it is almost the same as saying "FC's are not admitted here". They have no choice but to look for other alternatives.

Whatever the case may be, Brahmins are unable to garner seats in the same proportion as their population size, even though 10 times their population proportion is available for them to grab. !

Correct. This is true for all the castes in the FC classification. Which really shows that the word 'forward' actually means 'disadvantaged' or 'less capable'. The reverse is also true. There are many castes in the BC classification who get seats above and beyond their population. That is why the BC and MBC combine get around 74% of the seats even though they are just about 50% of the population. So 'backward' really means 'privileged'!

If Brahmins are all they are cracked up to be, !

By whom? Unless you refer to the hatred propoganda since Independence, what advantage did they really have? Did they rule like the Kshatriyas? Did they dominate business like the Vysyas? Whatever advantage they had in education was pretty much neutralized by 1971 when reservation was raised to 50%.

should it not be a cake walk for them to get at least 10% of the remaining 31% of the seats? Why are they not making the cut?

Because they are at a disadvantage that is getting worse day by day. The relatively creamy layer of Brahmins have left the country since the 60's in large numbers. The other castes control business, education and other fields. Most importantly political power through large numbers in voting strength. And a government by the BC for the BC. A poor Brahmin has nowhere to turn.

 

[pannvalan]

Well said, Iyest.

Brahmins have been systematically and gradually unseated from all the fields they were dominating until 1960s. Politics, Bureaucracy, Music, Dance and Drama, Literature, Education, Engineering, Medicine, Law/Judiciary, Banking, Insurance, Hospitality (Hotel/ Restaurant), Print Media and most importantly cinema, the very powerful industry have seen the regular and constant side-lining/exit/expulsion of stalwarts who happen(ed) to be brahmins. Their successors/off-springs also could not withstand the competition and onslaught from other sections of the society.

But, though brahmins' dominance have come down, the safe asylum for brahmins even today is chartered accountancy, engineering (computer engineering in particular), banking, insurance and carnatic music.

In politics, bureaucracy and judiciary, the three major wings of a democracy, brahmins have lost their vanguard place especially in south India. Similarly, in industry and trade, brahmins have the least or negligible presence. Can any one deny?

Thus, if collectively seen, brahmins have lost their voice in all the important spheres. This has also resulted in disunity, mistrust, fragmentation and betrayal amongst a vast section of brahmins themselves. This particular part brahmins should not have allowed to happen. So, I can say, the forces inimical to brahmins have succeeded in dividing brahmins, isolating them and also in dispersing them (That's why agraharams have disappeared and have become a thing of the past). Whatever concentration existed in certain pockets has been done away with. Then, is there any wonder that brahmins have no voice at all, now?

 

[NSP]

Both at corporate world and at society the Brahmins show tendency to isolate themselves. They feel superior to others and thus try to create new way of things not gelling with the rest. Though being innovative is very good, it is not efficient and thus many Brahmins do not make a cut. To make a significant cut one has to understand what is pragmatic and should systematically work for it. Innovating Brahmins indeed carve out a niche only to loose its advantage to other communities in the long run. Brahmins worked for Privatization only to loose advantage later to other community people. Same happened in higher education. Brahmins started the migration to US and H1B visa serves almost all the communities in India. Brahmins went Global first and now Globalization has no advantage for Brahmins.

Nobody hate us. In fact other communities respect and regard us. We loose our advantage easily because we have lost our roots!

 

[pannvalan]

Dear NSP,

Do you mean to say that though Brahmins were pioneers in many sensitive and important fields, they failed to retain that 'numero uno' status, which made them watch helplessly many others surpassing them?

 

[kunjuppu]

the only solution is breed breed breed,the population of tambrahms is stagnant as we have become evolved with limited populace,its all numbers game ie reservation

i agree with this, though with the current thinking of the younger generation, there appears to be a reluctance even to have a single child.

apparently, the task of child bearing/rearing appears to be too heavy a burden and expense (!).

you need more than 2 children per household to replace yourself, so i am told. soooo, the truth is we are shrinking. most of us appear not to care about it.

it is something like this for the protestants in the usa. as was oberved in yesterday'sw new york times, the u.s. supreme court till about 50 years ago, purely protestant, today has 2 jews, 6 catholics and one vacant spot. no one appears to care for the religion, as much as point of view and political slant, in the u.s.

 

[nachi naga]

You are trying to stir the animal in us. Please do not disturb, we are cudding.

hopefully 'cuddling' :tsk:

 

[nachi naga]

i agree with this, though with the current thinking of the younger generation, there appears to be a reluctance even to have a single child.

apparently, the task of child bearing/rearing appears to be too heavy a burden and expense (!).

life without children is incomplete,if not biologically yours at the very least,one can adopt within their own family first and if economically affluent then outside,would be reasonable,i think.

you need more than 2 children per household to replace yourself, so i am told. soooo, the truth is we are shrinking. most of us appear not to care about it.

it is something like this for the protestants in the usa. as was oberved in yesterday'sw new york times, the u.s. supreme court till about 50 years ago, purely protestant, today has 2 jews, 6 catholics and one vacant spot. no one appears to care for the religion, as much as point of view and political slant, in the u.s.

sir,tambrahms have shrunk,its reality.

protestants of usa,are sincere,imo.neverthless the parity is still abrahamic faith,wish hindus are also accomadated instead of being treated as second class citizens,despite a wealth of indian-americans contributing immensely for usa.hopefully canadians will follow usa as usual.

 

[pvraman]

Dear NSP,

Nobody hate us. In fact other communities respect and regard us. We loose our advantage easily because we have lost our roots!

Its apt, showing utter opportunistic (convincing themselves as progressive), loosing the value due to this, loosing the respect and character. Even 20 years before Brahmins were held as Knowledgeable, was the last straw.

To regain the respect, this kind of fighting for reservation and rate race will not help to bring back our image. Even a poor brahmin with good character and compassion still commands respect and reverence. We are getting diluted that's what we do and dreaming for the concentration. Need of the hour is the creation of bench mark in humbleness, unfortunately the current race for education and job takes out the essence of it. We have to unite to bring back the character thats how we set an example for the others, we shall be the the benchmark to stop this mad rush and materialistic suicide.

Cheers

 

[cpchandrasekaran]

Reservation is a means for our livelihood but this is not possible as We lack the votes. we are not in significant number in any constituency. Let us not waste our time in pursuing this objective. I live in Pune and know number of Maharashtrian brahmins who are enterpreneurs.They are doing well and have also not sacrificed any aspect of their culture. They should be our role models. Let us not look to Governement but to ourselves.
The second lesson comes from Kutchis- Gujarathis from Kutch. They live in a sparsely populated dry patch and have no resources. But, there are Kutch Institutions in Mumbai which support their young boys with money and guidance so that they become succesful. we have so many rich persons in our community. why don't they start a trust which will help our poor brethren?
It is for us to think and do something constructive.