Reciting 'Om Namah Shivaya' while doing Vaishnava aparadha

[vs_ramki1950]

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சிவனும் விஷ்ணுவும் ஒன்று என்றால் எதற்கு தனித்தனி கோயில்கள்? எதற்க்கு தனித்தனி வழி பாடுகள் மற்றும் பூக்கள்? இரண்டும் ஒன்று என்றால் ஆதி சங்கரருக்கு தெரியுமா தெரியாதா? தெரிந்திரிந்தால் ஏன்
தனித்தனி சுலோகங்கள் ? விஷ்ணு சந்நிதியில் ஓம் நமசிவாய என்று ஜபம் பண்ணலாமா?
அய்யப்ப பக்தர்கள் எல்லா கடவுளயும் அய்யப்பன் என்பதைப்போல ஏன் விஷ்ணுவை சிவன் என்றும் சிவன்தான் முழு முதற் கடவுள் என்றும் சொல்லக்கூடாது?

 

[JR]

To Chandru1849 post#18: Yes, Sri Vishnu is very much doing his duty, which is why Lord Shiva decided to manifest as Shri Hanuman and serve Sri Rama.

Thanks.

 

[renuka]

There is also a different version about Hanuman's origin.

Several different traditions account for Hanuman's birth. One is that at the time that Anjana was worshipping Lord Shiva, elsewhere, Dasharatha, the king of Ayodhya, was performing the Putrakama Yagna in order to have children. As a result, he received some sacred pudding, payasam, to be shared by his three wives, leading to the births of Rama, Lakshmana, Bharata, and Shatrughna. By divine ordinance, a kite snatched a fragment of that pudding and dropped it while flying over the forest where Anjana was engaged in worship. Vayu, the Hindu deity of the wind, delivered the falling pudding to the outstretched hands of Anjana, who consumed it. Hanuman was born to her as a result.

Hanuman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So Hanuman too was born becos of the Payasam...does that make Him technically a brother of Lord Rama?

After all in Hanuman Chalisa there is a line where Hanuman is equated to Bharata.

Raghupati Kinhi bahut badai
Tum mam priye Bharat-hi-sam bhai

 

[JR]

Yes, Renuka, I have read the above story too. But for some reason, it is generally accepted that Sri Hanuman is Sri Shiva. There is even a temple in TamilNadu where in the Garbagriha, there is Shiva Linga, and Shri Hanuman's murti is carved on top of this Shiva Linga showing that Shri Hanuman is an emanation of Lord Shiva.

The more accepted story is that Lord Shiva and Parvathi were sporting as deer and playing in the forest when Lord Shiva's seed emerged which was carried by the wind god and deposited onto Anjana, thus making Shri Hanuman a manifestation of Lord Shiva.

 

[P.J.]

சிவனும் விஷ்ணுவும் ஒன்று என்றால் எதற்கு தனித்தனி கோயில்கள்? எதற்க்கு தனித்தனி வழி பாடுகள் மற்றும் பூக்கள்? இரண்டும் ஒன்று என்றால் ஆதி சங்கரருக்கு தெரியுமா தெரியாதா? தெரிந்திரிந்தால் ஏன்
தனித்தனி சுலோகங்கள் ? விஷ்ணு சந்நிதியில் ஓம் நமசிவாய என்று ஜபம் பண்ணலாமா?
அய்யப்ப பக்தர்கள் எல்லா கடவுளயும் அய்யப்பன் என்பதைப்போல ஏன் விஷ்ணுவை சிவன் என்றும் சிவன்தான் முழு முதற் கடவுள் என்றும் சொல்லக்கூடாது?

why all men are different ? why all men eat different food ? Why dont you eat only one variety of food all days throughout your life?

Why dont you wear only one type of dress? why men do different Jobs? If you can understand that, you found the answer for your query.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

<removed as it can be hurtful to other members. - Praveen>

Drona was killed not by the best traditions of Dharma by Krishna - Yes Krishna is honourable Dharmaputhra !

Valli again was killed not by best tradtions of Dharma by Rama - Yes Rama is honourable Dharmaputhra !

These means were followed by Krishna & Rama to end adharma and establish Dharma!! - Yes Krishna & Rama are Honourable Dharmaputhras !

Adharmic means to Dharmic ends !!

 

[JR]

Dear Janaki ji,

1. Vali was unforgiving of Sugreeva of his mistake and threatened to kill Sugreeva. Sugreeva was unable to live anywhere except a certain mountain where Vaali was not allowed to enter. Besides, Vaali had adharmically taken Sugreeva's wife (Ruma?) to be his wife.

2. Vaali had gotten a boon that provided he always wore a pendant given to him (by whom I forget), he will be invincible in all front attacks during duels.

3. Vaali had a very pompous personality whereby he had created for himself a lot of powerful enemies out of being invincible at war with all of them. These enemies, knowing Vaali was invincible in war, were ganging up amongst themselves and have Vaali killed by other deceitful means.

Owing to the above factors, Sri Rama decided to kill Vaali from behind the tree. If Rama had not killed him by this way, Vaali would have been killed by deceit by his own enemies.

 

[P.J.]

Yes, Renuka, I have read the above story too. But for some reason, it is generally accepted that Sri Hanuman is Sri Shiva. There is even a temple in TamilNadu where in the Garbagriha, there is Shiva Linga, and Shri Hanuman's murti is carved on top of this Shiva Linga showing that Shri Hanuman is an emanation of Lord Shiva.

The more accepted story is that Lord Shiva and Parvathi were sporting as deer and playing in the forest when Lord Shiva's seed emerged which was carried by the wind god and deposited onto Anjana, thus making Shri Hanuman a manifestation of Lord Shiva.

Kesari the son of Gautami Rishi and Kesari’s wife Anjana secured a grand son named Hanuman with the ‘Amsa’ (facet) of Parama Shiva and Vayu Deva too was responsible in the birth of the boy.

: kamakoti.org

 

[JR]

Does Vishnu do his job?

He has been searching the feet of Lord Shiva and His mission is not completed yet or is he sleeping in the middle of search. At least for this, let us all, irrespective of differences, join together to wake him and make him work.

I know, I already answered this. But just wanted to add that this particular episode of Sri Vishnu not finding Lord Shiva's feet is an interpolation of some purana, or that it belonged to a bogus purana. That's what the learned say.

 

[JR]

Kesari the son of Gautami Rishi and Kesari’s wife Anjana secured a grand son named Hanuman with the ‘Amsa’ (facet) of Parama Shiva and Vayu Deva too was responsible in the birth of the boy.

: kamakoti.org

Thank you for this info and link, PJ ji.

 

[P.J.]

Drona was killed not by the best traditions of Dharma by Krishna - Yes Krishna is honourable Dharmaputhra !

Valli again was killed not by best tradtions of Dharma by Rama - Yes Rama is honourable Dharmaputhra !

These means were followed by Krishna & Rama to end adharma and establish Dharma!! - Yes Krishna & Rama are Honourable Dharmaputhras !

Adharmic means to Dharmic ends !!

They were annihilated by Dharmic means only

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Post 25 By PJ

Those who are against Dharma and their followers should be wiped out by using all possible means. This is Dharma' so said Krishna.

There are Nakkerans who question the wisdom of even Gods ! Netri Kannai thiranthalum kutrum kutrame!

 

[biswa]

Moderator ji, I complain, I complain!

The rules of this sub-forum say it should not be used to denigrate religion.

Yet this thread seems to have been created only for the purpose of starting an inter-sect war. It hurts my feelings!

O moderator! Please assume an avatar and intervene!

 

[P.J.]

Moderator ji, I complain, I complain!

The rules of this sub-forum say it should not be used to denigrate religion.

Yet this thread seems to have been created only for the purpose of starting an inter-sect war. It hurts my feelings!

O moderator! Please assume an avatar and intervene!

Real crocodile Tears!!!

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

They were annihilated by Dharmic means only

This is debatable - Why then Yudhistra's chariot responded the way it did?

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Dear Janaki ji,

1. Vali was unforgiving of Sugreeva of his mistake and threatened to kill Sugreeva. Sugreeva was unable to live anywhere except a certain mountain where Vaali was not allowed to enter. Besides, Vaali had adharmically taken Sugreeva's wife (Ruma?) to be his wife.

2. Vaali had gotten a boon that provided he always wore a pendant given to him (by whom I forget), he will be invincible in all front attacks during duels.

3. Vaali had a very pompous personality whereby he had created for himself a lot of powerful enemies out of being invincible at war with all of them. These enemies, knowing Vaali was invincible in war, were ganging up amongst themselves and have Vaali killed by other deceitful means.

Owing to the above factors, Sri Rama decided to kill Vaali from behind the tree. If Rama had not killed him by this way, Vaali would have been killed by deceit by his own enemies.

Is this Rama Rajyam?

 

[JR]

Moderator ji, I complain, I complain!

The rules of this sub-forum say it should not be used to denigrate religion.

Yet this thread seems to have been created only for the purpose of starting an inter-sect war. It hurts my feelings!

O moderator! Please assume an avatar and intervene!

Why? We Vaishnavas don't even have the right to say Lord Shiva requests his followers to not disrespect Vishnu?

Proove the accusations you have raised regarding the "intent" of starting this thread, if you can. Proove wherein I have, as the OP, posted any inflammatory message against any other sect. I'm sure you will, as usual, go silent on this one, because you cannot claim any of my message as derogatory or inflammatory.

So far, it has only been a smooth exchange between all parties and you are the only person hyper-reacting. This shows "what you want" - to create an intersect war between us members here.

 

[P.J.]

Smt Janaki Ji

Mahabarata war was fought to sustain and uphold Dharma.



Sri Krishna showed abundant mercy on Karna by taking his Punya

For the soul to get liberated from the cycle of rebiths, one should not have any accumulated Papam or Punyam

Lord Krishna wanted to give moksha to Karna by voluntarily taking the punya from Karna.

Lord Krishna is like the sun in the sky illuminates His light on the noble and the vile, the sinful and the pious impartially. And as although sunlight touching the Earth is not affected by events that happen in the world similarly the Supreme Lord is not affected by the events which transpire in the life of human beings or any other being.


Svetasvatara Upanishad, 4.6, Mundakopanishad, 3.1.1:

'dva suparna sayuja sakhaya samanam vrksam pari asvajate /
tayor anyah pippalam svad vatt yanasnan nanyo abhicakasīti //'

Two birds of beautiful plumage — inseparable friends — live on the same tree. Of these two one eats the sweet fruit while the other looks on without eating.

The first bird represents the individual soul, while the second represents Brahman or God. The soul is essentially a reflection of Brahman. The tree represents the body. The soul identifies itself with the body, reaps the fruits of its actions, and undergoes rebirth. The Lord alone stands as an eternal witness, ever contented, and does not eat, for HE IS THE DIRECTOR of both the eater and the eaten.

Bhagavad-Gita: Chapter 5, Verse 15

Tree of Jiva and Atman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Dictionary meaning of 'cunning' as 'achieving one's ends by deceit or evasion'.
Is that the way Sri Krishna Acted in Mahabarata?
.

You choose the apprpriate word from the list to describe Krishnas way of dealing with Drona if cunning is uncomfortable!

deceit
dɪˈsiːt/
noun
noun: deceit; plural noun: deceits
the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth.
"a web of deceit"

synonyms:

deception, deceitfulness, duplicity, double-dealing, fraud, fraudulence, cheating, trickery, duping, hoodwinking, chicanery, underhandedness, deviousness, slyness, cunning, craftiness, craft, wiliness, artfulness, guile, dissimulation, dissembling, bluff, bluffing, lying, pretence, artifice, treachery; More

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Smt Janaki Ji

Mahabarata war was fought to sustain and uphold Dharma.



Sri Krishna showed abundant mercy on Karna by taking his Punya

For the soul to get liberated from the cycle of rebiths, one should not have any accumulated Papam or Punyam

Lord Krishna wanted to give moksha to Karna by voluntarily taking the punya from Karna.

Lord Krishna is like the sun in the sky illuminates His light on the noble and the vile, the sinful and the pious impartially. And as although sunlight touching the Earth is not affected by events that happen in the world similarly the Supreme Lord is not affected by the events which transpire in the life of human beings or any other being.


Svetasvatara Upanishad, 4.6, Mundakopanishad, 3.1.1:

'dva suparna sayuja sakhaya samanam vrksam pari asvajate /
tayor anyah pippalam svad vatt yanasnan nanyo abhicakasīti //'

Two birds of beautiful plumage — inseparable friends — live on the same tree. Of these two one eats the sweet fruit while the other looks on without eating.

The first bird represents the individual soul, while the second represents Brahman or God. The soul is essentially a reflection of Brahman. The tree represents the body. The soul identifies itself with the body, reaps the fruits of its actions, and undergoes rebirth. The Lord alone stands as an eternal witness, ever contented, and does not eat, for HE IS THE DIRECTOR of both the eater and the eaten.

Bhagavad-Gita: Chapter 5, Verse 15

Tree of Jiva and Atman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For the soul to get liberated from the cycle of rebiths, one should not have any accumulated Papam or Punyam

All along it was said Karna was killed because he was on the side of Adharma doing all Pappam Now you say had excess punniyam and hence Krishna took them from him . It should have benn easier for Karna to indulge in more papam to neutralize his account rather than give away his Puniyam to Krishna!!

Lord Krishna is like the sun in the sky

Karna is the son of the sun on the sky!!

i

 

[P.J.]

More Papam and More Puniyam more births!!

They do not get subtracted one from the other like Income from Expenses


Throughout his life Karna indeed did limitless dhana. But he had not performed them as an arpana to Lord Hari.
So he accumulated Punyam which will not release him from the cycle of rebirths, lord took his Punyam due to abundant mercy on him.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 18, Verse 11

'न हि देहभृता शक्यं तयक्तुं कर्माण्य अशेषतः
यस तु कर्मफलत्यागी स तयागीत्य अभिधीयते'

'na hi deha bhrta sakyam tyaktum karmany asesatah
yas tu karma phala tyagi sa tyagity abhidhiyate

It is indeed impossible for an embodied being to give up all activities. But he who renounces the fruits of action is called one who has truly renounced.

To give up the results of all activities is called renunciation [tyaga] by the wise. The result or the fruit of action belongs to Lord Krishna and He took it as Dhaana as the only way to get it.

 

[JR]

Dear Janaki ji,

I do believe Sri Krishna and Sri Rama at times acted in ways that are not really falling into the category of 'dharma' - such as in Sri Krishna's advice for killing Drona using the name of 'Aswatthama' and Sri Rama killing Vaali from behind. Nevertheless, we know that they are god-incarnate. In case of Krishna, he was a purnavatara and we know this from all his leelas as a child, narrated in Srimad Bhagavatam. Also from his Viswarupa Darshan. Therefore we Vaishnavas go by the understanding that god, being always just and dharmic, might have special reasons to have acted so, maybe based on yuga-dharma, desh/Kaal/patra principles, and to show to mankind possibly the fact that sometimes you have to lie and be tactful to win based on how the situation demands. For example, a learned sage once was meditating and a cow escaping a hunter ran past him and hid in his hermitage. When the hunter came looking for the cow, he asked the sage if he saw him. What do we expect the sage to do? If he lied that he did not see the cow, he is a good sage, if he reveals the cow, he is not a sage at all... So we go by the understanding, Krishna and Rama being god incarnate, must have done what they did for special reasons that we cannot humanly understand or appreciate. So this is how we Vaishnavas, or atleast me, deal with this issue. We bow to him, pray to him, to give us the knowledge and wisdom to be able to understand his leela.

 

[P.J.]

Dear Janaki ji,

I do believe Sri Krishna and Sri Rama at times acted in ways that are not really falling into the category of 'dharma' - such as in Sri Krishna's advice for killing Drona using the name of 'Aswatthama' and Sri Rama killing Vaali from behind. Nevertheless, we know that they are god-incarnate. In case of Krishna, he was a purnavatara and we know this from all his leelas as a child, narrated in Srimad Bhagavatam. Also from his Viswarupa Darshan. Therefore we Vaishnavas go by the understanding that god, being always just and dharmic, might have special reasons to have acted so, maybe based on yuga-dharma, desh/Kaal/patra principles, and to show to mankind possibly the fact that sometimes you have to lie and be tactful to win based on how the situation demands. For example, a learned sage once was meditating and a cow escaping a hunter ran past him and hid in his hermitage. When the hunter came looking for the cow, he asked the sage if he saw him. What do we expect the sage to do? If he lied that he did not see the cow, he is a good sage, if he reveals the cow, he is not a sage at all... So we go by the understanding, Krishna and Rama being god incarnate, must have done what they did for special reasons that we cannot humanly understand or appreciate. So this is how we Vaishnavas, or atleast me, deal with this issue. We bow to him, pray to him, to give us the knowledge and wisdom to be able to understand his leela.

Smt JR Ji


your statement 'Sri Krishna and Sri Rama at times acted in ways that are not really falling into the category of 'dharma' proves that as you said in the last line Krishna and Rama being god incarnate, must have done what they did for special reasons that we cannot humanly understand or appreciate.

 

[P.J.]

Drona was killed not by the best traditions of Dharma by Krishna - Yes Krishna is honourable Dharmaputhra !

Valli again was killed not by best tradtions of Dharma by Rama - Yes Rama is honourable Dharmaputhra !

These means were followed by Krishna & Rama to end adharma and establish Dharma!! - Yes Krishna & Rama are Honourable Dharmaputhras !

Adharmic means to Dharmic ends !!

In Abhimanyu killing ,Drona becomes the reason for one of the biggest war rule violation, This is actually seen as the arrival of Kaliyug on earth.

 

[P.J.]

To Quote from the transliteration of Valmiki Ramayana
by Sri A.V.Narasimhachari

In his reply to the accusation by Vaali that he (Rama)
became adharmic is hitting him, Rama quotes a Manu
sloka Which runs thus :"When sinners are punished by the
kings, their sins are destroyed and besides acquiring
punya, they reach swarga like sat-purusha. But if the
king fails to punish the sinner,he obtains the papa
(bad karma) of the sinner. "



Rama says, in the aagya of King Bhratha, he is
carrying out the punishment for the sinners even if
they are to be found in the forests - the sin that
vaali had committed - being stealing the wife of the
younger brother. (the younger brother is equated to
the son and his wife , the daughter-in-law)
Rama further says that in having meted out the
punishment, i.e. death to Vaali, vaali had now been
relieved of the effect of the sin he has committed.-

This is one dimension of God killing a person
whereby, the killed is relieved of a grave bad karma.
If this is not destined for vaali, his papa karma
would have continued to haunt him.

But here a question comes, if vaali had to be killed
by somebody else for the same sin, would he have been
relieved of the effect of his sin? (please comment)

or is it because , vaali who is otherwise a
blemishless person (!) (The first reaction from Tara
on seeing vali hit, is 'hey Arya putra!')is destined
to shed the effect of this particular sin and Rama
just happened to be there to execute it (Devotees
kindly note, there is absolutely no intention to
question but only to 'seek' the right answers)

Not only that The wailing Tara asks rama to kill her
too so that she can join him swarga. and by killing
her Rama can make 'vaali wada praayaschit' That means
any vadam, even if it be done by an avatara purusha
gets HIM a dosham?

rama doing prayaschittam after ravana vada is a point
to ponder. (On our recent visit to the divya desam
Shem pon sai koil in the Thiru nangoor area, we were
told by the archaka that rama was said to have visited
the temple to do praayaschitta for Ravana vadam.)

Another point to ponder is the very reason why rama
had to lose his wife and suffer. Vishnu's killing of
the wife of a sage who was said to have given asylum
to the asura chased by Vishnu and the subsequent
'curse' by the rishi that vishnu undergo the suffering
of loss of wife. Request to devotees;- does this have
any scritural / puranic basis?

Generally most vadams by the Lord indicated well in
advance. Either to redeem a sin to liberate from some
confinement. Viewed in this perspective, Death by the
Lord seems predetermined - just like any other vadam/
death predestined.

To quote another vadam, namely the killing of Kabandan
by Rama, it is clearly indicated in ramayana as
predetermined.Kabandan (meaning headless torso) was
cursed by a sage who was disturbed by him while doing
a research in the medicinal use of plants and herbs.

The sage cursed him to continue to have the asura
roopa which he held only as a disguise. The otherwise
beautiful Kabandan was very disturbed by this curse
and asks for release from the curse. The sage says,
'the day Rama cuts your hands and does the samskara,
will you attain your original form.'

This is once again reconfirmed by Indra with whom
Kabanda went on a war.

And it happened.

Similarly Ravana vadam. assuming that everything goes
on as predetermined then all vadams directly by the
Lord or indirectly as with every other death (it is HE
who has ordained every thing)are in accordance with
some karma.


DEATH BY LORD DICTAED BY KARMA?