Reasons for the deep-rooted hatred

[murali]

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gurumurthy ji,
your "vision" sounds more like a desperate plan.Akin to what the british had for muslims and dravidians.And they had to pack their bags.

The vision that our sages have held out is one of unity.Which is to by achieved by an aspiring jiva.I am not denying the communal dimension.The vedantic vision is built on the veda.

What makes you think that the dalits will toe our line?Have you not heard of tirumavalavan?I thought that the vanniyars,thevars and gounders will be on our side for liberating them from the clutches of Justice party.It has not happened.The DMK has co-opted them.

Sri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal openly showed his concern for dalits.He was hated for that.

Are you not aware of traditions of 'marabu kavithai','nerisai venba',akathinai and aatrupadai poetry.These predate the bhakthi age of the pallavas.This secular poetry defines the tamil heritage.tholkappiyam-tamil grammar,silapathikaram-the epic which spans chera,chola,pandya kingdoms and thirukural-the tamil ethical masterpiece define tamil culture.dravidians dont care much for the vedas.

 

[aditya]

gurumurthy ij
3. What about the harijans of tamil nadu who are still being ill-treated by the tamilians. Can we now call the tamils as non-harijans like they call us as non-brahmins?

4. Can we now take up the cause of harijans and work with them to remove their sufferings at the hands of non-harijans.

The myth propagated by various political parties in TN and some dalit organizations is that the upper-castes, specifically brahmins, are behind the atrocities committed against the dalits, whereas the reality is that brahmins in TN constitute only about 2% of the population, with negligible percent living in rural areas, where all the atrocities against the dalits typically happen. The atrocities tend to be committed by the OBCs and SCs, who make up the bulk of the rural populations and not by Brahmins, as is the common assertion.

It is ideologically more convenient to lay the blame on a group that is basically a non-entity and is politically and socially powerless, than to target the politically and numerically most powerful groups - the OBC and SC communities. In fact, the community that MK hails from is likely to be one of the biggest abuser of dalits. But with the most powerful man in TN hailing from the abuser community, do you think that the dalits would dare to point the finger at the OBCs?

The bridge to close the gap between brahmins and dalits is not going happen too soon, or very easily, for the simple reason - the dalit movement is very politically driven with major support for this movement coming from christianity. The leaders spearheading the dalit movement, especially its representatives in western countries, are all converted christians, and they receive tremendous financial backing from various christian organizations abroad, particular from Europe – the Netherlands, UK, Germany. To meet their objective, which is basically conversion of all hindus and the division of hindu society to facilitate the christianization of India, these leaders are going to make reconciliation between the dalit community, and the brahmins and hindu community in general, very difficult. They are fully aware that close association between hindus and dalits, and unity among hindus, will be an obstacle to their conversion agenda.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Pappan, Hari & Aditya,
Very solid arguments. Though I still have differences, please accept my adulations on your well written thought processes. I am sure if this type of high quality discussion continues, a solution or consensus can be found out soon. And that will lead the way out of the present quagmire!

The good thing is that world still has large number of sane people who know how to value worthy people, worthy literature, films, music etc. May be if some brahmin with lateral talents in the fields of literature, films etc. can bring the reality out, the negative tarnishing of brahmins could be arrested.

 

[vanam9394]

Hello all
Brahmins need to uphold their brahminical principles like performance of religious duties, learning the vedas and leading a simple pious life. On the contrary, modern day brahmins lead a life like anyother caste making money and watching movies eating meat etc. Naturally, they will not be respected for their faulty behaviour.

 

[mrifan]

Very true

Hello all
Brahmins need to uphold their brahminical principles like performance of religious duties, learning the vedas and leading a simple pious life. On the contrary, modern day brahmins lead a life like anyother caste making money and watching movies eating meat etc. Naturally, they will not be respected for their faulty behaviour.

I think many Brahmanas have fallen prey to the same "marketing" messages that have led to a decline in morals and degradation in culture throughout TN and also in India. In TN, especially Chennai, the decline is precipitous mainly because of the close nexus between the film industry and the political class. This decline started after the "rationalist communists" came to power, mostly led by people like MGR, Karunanidhi etc who cannot be accused of being highly educated or philosophical thinkers. Their "pagutharivu" involves thinking with their genitals, openly having mistresses and bastard children, accumulating disproportionate assets through extortion, bribery and other means, destruction of public property, sponsoring riots and other "pagutharivu" deeds. One can just imagine the mental vacuity of the wretched people who hold these people in high regard. If one remembers, the AIDS epidemic began in Madras in the 80's. There is also rampant speculation about the cause of death of a very famous "rationalist" politician who was sick for some time with a "mysterious" illness. He was flown to the US for treatment but did not make it. I had recently seen some pictures of Madras taken in the 1950's, and it looked unnervingly clean, green and pollution-free. My parents also tell me crime was very low. Now we have especially twisted crimes like school children kidnapping a 12 yr old boy after seeing some movies.

I recently even saw a poster advertising an "Abstinence Club" in front of SIET college in Nandanam in Chennai. And there are "drug rehabilitation" centers coming up in Chennai. To me Chennai now feels just like the Harlem ghetto in New York, only thing missing are the crack dealers on the street corners.

Communists believe in equality of rewards, and unfortunately they seem to be proliferating like mosquitoes all over India. If someone works hard, stays unmarried to concentrate on a venture, and tries to come up in life, get married, have children married into a good family; the communists will be there to ensure their twisted version of equality results in that person being taxed heavily, his money distributed to toddy drinkers who cannot keep their underwear on and have 5 kids out on the streets before 25 years of age, even though they cannot take care of any of them, get Brahmana daughters handed over to trash collectors like some kind of piece of trash and just a tremendously degrading view of everything in general. If Professors exercise their mental faculties at a college to publish research papers, teach students well, and make the college famous, the reward is to dump hooligans in their classes who get in through quotas without studying, because of course anything else would be "unequal".

It is for this reason alone that I strongly feel, well I *know*, TN will remain undeveloped compared to other places in the world for many decades to come. It will of course be a good source of cheap labor to the rest of the world, at least there is something redeeming. If however, Brahmanas were to form a separate UT and keep strict domicile regulations in place, that UT would rival Singapore in a couple of decades. The differences would be stark. Until then, I am afraid Brahmanas have no choice but to migrate to escape the clutches of the communists who will want to equally distribute their misery and poverty and film inspired "values" among everyone until even Africa also overtakes in all respects.

 

[navy-eswaran]

dear friends,
a survey conducted by meritrac services ha s rated chennai b school graduates as most unemployable.why the decline can any one introspect honestly?
our students are made to cram the course from content page to index page as the valuation is done by ayahs and clerks.(is it a fact) even students of engineering prepare themselves based on 10 yr questio!!
god help us all
regards
eswaran

 

[murali]

mrifan sir,
the reality is more like this.
1)there is a group of brahmanas whom we can call "iit material".either they are born talented or they are very focussed.
2)there is another group which we can "anna university" material.There are many among non-brahmins who have comparible ability.
3)there are many other groups among brahmanas in various other groups like vivekananda college,some of whom might make the first two grades.
4)the culture of the particular family has a role in determining to which group the brahmana, though it is not the only factor.
5)it is the first group which distinguishes our community from others.even those who do not belong to it,respect this group.we have aspirations to belong to this group some day,some janma.Or more practically in my case,if and when i have a child,i would like him/her to belong to the first group.
6)there are similar categories among non-brahmins,but what distinguishes karu and his ilk,is they want to eliminate the first group or gate crash into it without any qualification.
7)Most in the first group do not want a separate UT.

 

[murali]

Regarding yesterdays post on Dravidian literary heritage.

1)Tamils take great pride in tolkappiyam(tamil grammar),Silapathikaram(tamil epic),thirukural(collection of ethical maxims).It defines tamil culture.

2)we too respect them.But it is not canonical for us.For us,the vedas are the fountainh ead of our culture.Until recent times,it was so for even tamil scholars.But after the Aryan-dravidan divide,the tamils want to cling to an exclusive dravidian heritage.

3)tholkappiar was a brahmana,silapathikaram has glowing references to brahmanas who are considered as exemplars of ethical conduct.They are part and parcel of tamil society.silapathikaram is set in hidu-jain ethos.even the thirukural has the highest respect for the brahminical way of life,though the author was a vellala or jain.

4)Is there anything mutually hostile between the vedic and tamil literary tradition.There is none.This thought was not even entertained until recently.I think it is only because of reservations differences are being invented.(I am not denying linguistic differences,but even today there is little in common between semitic religions and tamil mores.

5)one must have some sympathy for the intellectual prediliction of a non-brahmin.He cannot have empathy for vedas,which he cannot understand nor does he have anushtanams mandated,as it is for us.we can understand the need for sandhya upasana,chitta shuddhi.

6)As for bhakti,we can understand the grandeur of Purusha Suktham,Sri Suktham,Thaitriya Upanishads,Gita,Vishnu Sahasranamam,Sri Rudram,Chamakam,Lakshmi Ashtottaram,Valmiki Ramayanam,Bhagavatham,Vishnu Puranam and the unity therein.

7)a tamil has to peruse alwars and thirumoolar for bhakti and advaita resptvly.Each is great in their own way,but tamil bhakti came at a later age and divided tamil people(as saivas and vaishnavas).It does not give them a composite vision,like the way vedic literature gives us.

8)Only in bharatiyaar,one sees this yearning.perhaps in vaali and kannadasan.

9)Reservation might seem far away from this issue.The hatred from their side and contempt from our side will not go away,until atleast the creamy layer is removed.

10)True,brahmanas migrated from north india.The earliest migrated more than 2500 years back.naidus,muslims,saurashtras migrated in the last 400 years.They say even mudaliars(dravidians)migrated from mesopotamia.Only thevars and pallars are the natives then.

11)Historically,perhaps a movement like this was a necessity perhaps to bring in to focus ancient tamil literature.To keep alive diversity(it was never in danger).not divisiveness.our vakkutharivadis pasaangu thookathilirunthu ezhunthukalainaa,real ulagam might let them stay asleep.ippo aval(pappanoda
baashai) kaila power irrukkunu ularindrikalaam,nalaiku delhikaran tamizhnatta vilaiku vanga poraan,micha meethi christian,muslimta po poradu.appuram sadharana tamizhan nakka vazhikalam.

 

[NARAS]

I think many Brahmanas have fallen prey to the same "marketing" messages that have led to a decline in morals and degradation in culture throughout TN and also in India. In TN, especially Chennai, the decline is precipitous mainly because of the close nexus between the film industry and the political class. This decline started after the "rationalist communists" came to power, mostly led by people like MGR, Karunanidhi etc who cannot be accused of being highly educated or philosophical thinkers. Their "pagutharivu" involves thinking with their genitals, openly having mistresses and bastard children, accumulating disproportionate assets through extortion, bribery and other means, destruction of public property, sponsoring riots and other "pagutharivu" deeds. One can just imagine the mental vacuity of the wretched people who hold these people in high regard. If one remembers, the AIDS epidemic began in Madras in the 80's. There is also rampant speculation about the cause of death of a very famous "rationalist" politician who was sick for some time with a "mysterious" illness. He was flown to the US for treatment but did not make it. I had recently seen some pictures of Madras taken in the 1950's, and it looked unnervingly clean, green and pollution-free. My parents also tell me crime was very low. Now we have especially twisted crimes like school children kidnapping a 12 yr old boy after seeing some movies.

I recently even saw a poster advertising an "Abstinence Club" in front of SIET college in Nandanam in Chennai. And there are "drug rehabilitation" centers coming up in Chennai. To me Chennai now feels just like the Harlem ghetto in New York, only thing missing are the crack dealers on the street corners.

Communists believe in equality of rewards, and unfortunately they seem to be proliferating like mosquitoes all over India. If someone works hard, stays unmarried to concentrate on a venture, and tries to come up in life, get married, have children married into a good family; the communists will be there to ensure their twisted version of equality results in that person being taxed heavily, his money distributed to toddy drinkers who cannot keep their underwear on and have 5 kids out on the streets before 25 years of age, even though they cannot take care of any of them, get Brahmana daughters handed over to trash collectors like some kind of piece of trash and just a tremendously degrading view of everything in general. If Professors exercise their mental faculties at a college to publish research papers, teach students well, and make the college famous, the reward is to dump hooligans in their classes who get in through quotas without studying, because of course anything else would be "unequal".

It is for this reason alone that I strongly feel, well I *know*, TN will remain undeveloped compared to other places in the world for many decades to come. It will of course be a good source of cheap labor to the rest of the world, at least there is something redeeming. If however, Brahmanas were to form a separate UT and keep strict domicile regulations in place, that UT would rival Singapore in a couple of decades. The differences would be stark. Until then, I am afraid Brahmanas have no choice but to migrate to escape the clutches of the communists who will want to equally distribute their misery and poverty and film inspired "values" among everyone until even Africa also overtakes in all respects.

sir - YES. in fact it was during justice party rule before independence in south india, and dmk rule in 1970 in t.nadu, that alcohol which was banned till then, was thrown open to public for consumption through govt. shops!!! all other evils like cabaret, night clubs etc., followed suit. for the 'dravida iyakkam' anything except brahminism - drinking, smoking , cabaret , night clubs etc., are all 'rational' it seems!!!!!!!!

 

[hariharan1972]

Thanks.

Edit reason : To make it easy for hari

Thanks for considering & implementing my request.

I dunno about others but for me well spaced out paras are easy to read.

If all members of our community can give respect to others' views & implement where possible, i feel a lot of synergy can be achieved.

In my humble view, giving spaces between paras also aid in thought flow as the space represents a minor pause - gives time for the mind to digest the thought. Also giving space while writing, in my view, also reflects/help develop giving space to one another. (puriyudhu - aarambichittanya aarambichittan !!!!!)

 

[gurumurthyji]

Reasons for deep rooted hatred - Reply thread

Pappan ji,


Yes !! the larger vision even now is unity in diversity and definitely not divisiveness. [vakkutharivadis pasaangu thookathilirunthu ezhunthukalainaa,real ulagam might let them stay asleep.ippo aval (pappanoda baashai) kaila power irrukkunu ularindrikalaam, nalaiku delhi karan tamizhnatta vilaiku vanga poraan, micha meethi christian,muslimta po poradu. appuram sadharana tamizhan nakka vazhikalam.] We are now in a BIG BROTHER SERIEL.
The play democracy is a number game and so Muslims and Christians are in to it that by any means. Situation is now as you say desperate and I do not want to be ejected out. British packed their bags and had to leave; but I can not go any where and therefore be assured that I will never go and ever remain here. “Oru kulandhai ulla varai phoor kodi paranthidum’’

Let me now come to our sundhra tamizh. Sir, you could have included our Thirumoolar’s Thirumandiram also just to remind our pasanghu tamils to wake up from the sudo- slumber.
Dalits will toe our line because I believe this manthra ‘ Manitha nee Mahathanavan – Param porulin vadivanavan’ Mayirai Katti Malayai ezhu – Vandhal Malai. ….. But I will continue to work….work……work. Even Shri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal was hated for openly showing his concern. So the hate situation is already there and nothing new is there to show!!

I also realize that we have to win over vanniyars, thevars and gounders and that requires enormous will power, intelligence and a high degree of unity among us.

 

[parunach]

I think that both Brahmins and non-Brahmins are overdoing the sense of being part of a group (I cannot call this a race) and being oppressed. We must agree that the afro-americans in the US have gone through far worse. However, when Morgan Freeman was asked by another person what he thought of Black History month, he said that the whole concept was ridiculous. He wanted to be thought of as an american, nothing else. Granted that not many people are that open in their thought. However, in TN, we have the Dravidians saying that they have been oppressed and getting their revenge against the Brahmins, the Brahmins feeling that they are oppressed and feeling down. The Dravidians have been in charge for 40 years, how many years do they want before feeling that they are average citizens. The Brahmins are not having it good due to reservation, however, a majority of them do get good opportunities in most areas. The real reason is that they come from families that are better educated, statistically, they would be ahead in their education too. I understand that there are some people of both kind that do not have it good, but that would always happen. It is about time that both kind stop clamoring against evils and start treating everyone the way that they would want to be treated.

 

[kudumi]

Excellent post

I think many Brahmanas have fallen prey to the same "marketing" messages that have led to a decline in morals and degradation in culture throughout TN and also in India. In TN, especially Chennai, the decline is precipitous mainly because of the close nexus between the film industry and the political class. This decline started after the "rationalist communists" came to power, mostly led by people like MGR, Karunanidhi etc who cannot be accused of being highly educated or philosophical thinkers. Their "pagutharivu" involves thinking with their genitals, openly having mistresses and bastard children, accumulating disproportionate assets through extortion, bribery and other means, destruction of public property, sponsoring riots and other "pagutharivu" deeds. One can just imagine the mental vacuity of the wretched people who hold these people in high regard. If one remembers, the AIDS epidemic began in Madras in the 80's. There is also rampant speculation about the cause of death of a very famous "rationalist" politician who was sick for some time with a "mysterious" illness. He was flown to the US for treatment but did not make it. I had recently seen some pictures of Madras taken in the 1950's, and it looked unnervingly clean, green and pollution-free. My parents also tell me crime was very low. Now we have especially twisted crimes like school children kidnapping a 12 yr old boy after seeing some movies.

I recently even saw a poster advertising an "Abstinence Club" in front of SIET college in Nandanam in Chennai. And there are "drug rehabilitation" centers coming up in Chennai. To me Chennai now feels just like the Harlem ghetto in New York, only thing missing are the crack dealers on the street corners.

Communists believe in equality of rewards, and unfortunately they seem to be proliferating like mosquitoes all over India. If someone works hard, stays unmarried to concentrate on a venture, and tries to come up in life, get married, have children married into a good family; the communists will be there to ensure their twisted version of equality results in that person being taxed heavily, his money distributed to toddy drinkers who cannot keep their underwear on and have 5 kids out on the streets before 25 years of age, even though they cannot take care of any of them, get Brahmana daughters handed over to trash collectors like some kind of piece of trash and just a tremendously degrading view of everything in general. If Professors exercise their mental faculties at a college to publish research papers, teach students well, and make the college famous, the reward is to dump hooligans in their classes who get in through quotas without studying, because of course anything else would be "unequal".

It is for this reason alone that I strongly feel, well I *know*, TN will remain undeveloped compared to other places in the world for many decades to come. It will of course be a good source of cheap labor to the rest of the world, at least there is something redeeming. If however, Brahmanas were to form a separate UT and keep strict domicile regulations in place, that UT would rival Singapore in a couple of decades. The differences would be stark. Until then, I am afraid Brahmanas have no choice but to migrate to escape the clutches of the communists who will want to equally distribute their misery and poverty and film inspired "values" among everyone until even Africa also overtakes in all respects.

I heard about thinking with the stomach joke, and thinking with the kidney joke . But this is the first time, I am hearing thinking with genitals...may be our guys have thought "TOO MUCH" and our population has exploded beyond control?

I remember the AIDS epidemic incidents also...It was in the 90s and I was in Vivekananda. Ganesan was the principal ( viveka guys might know him)).
The student unions president came to his room...( I was there to get his sign to collect a prize from the matam). He said "Sir...we need to celebrate AIDs awareness day in the college.
G: Aids eppadi varuthu theriyuma?
SP: Theriyum.
G: Therinja appuram ethukku pannanum? Therinje panna thappu thana? AIDs varama irukkanumna, ellathayum surittikittu padippula mattum concentrate pannanum. Onnoda celebrationa ellam engayavathu park pakkathula vachikko...college pakkam pathein tholaichiduvein.

Then he said something like....he is willing to pardon mistakes...but not ignorance and stupidity stuff like that.

While I agree that people get Aids by blood transfusion for no fault of theirs, the kinda epidemic spread is because of multiple partners.

Commies talk about equality of rewards...but not about equality of effort, responsibilites, value addition.

TN will continue to grow as long as TN Brahmins want to go back to maambalam or mylapore and buy a flat and settle down at the earliest available opportunites. This issue was highlighted when Gates visited Bangalore in 2000, and he skipped madras. There was an article in the TOI bangalore edition..called "Why doesn't chennai need gates" that elaborates this problem. It was about tamils in general, but mostly it applies to brahmins.

 

[hariharan1972]

Salutes

Commies talk about equality of rewards...but not about equality of effort, responsibilites, value addition.

10^12 Salutes for this line.:thumb:

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

For lotus-quartz ...

From your posts it appears that you have never lived in Chennai/TN - and are that you are unfamiliar with ground-realities.

I would like to make two points:

(i) My great-grandfather's era saw the demise of the Maharajas, the Naickers, and the petty kings. The advent of Independence (1947) heralded the transition to a "planned economy". India was shifting from agriculture to industrialization. In this scenario, reservation quotas for college admissions and jobs posed serious impediments to a community which was readjusting to a changing economy.
The 1950s saw dramatic land-reforms in Tamil Nadu. The Brahmin community could no longer sustain themselves through agriculture, and SO the pursuit of a Western education, and non-traditional occupations assumed paramount importance. The pursuit of non-traditional occupations led to the Brahmin exodus: to Delhi (seat of government), to Bombay (the center of commerce), and to Calcutta (for employment, and a transit point to the steel-cities of Jamshedpur, Bhilai, Rourkela, Durgapur, and Asansol) -"Paapi paet ka savaal tha!"
Furthermore, in 1947 India became a democratic republic. In a democracy, numbers matter. In TN the ratio of "forward castes" to "backward castes" was low. The Brahmin exodus simply dwindled their numbers and exacerbated
a bad situation.
Here I refer you to an important book:
"Caste, Class and Power: Changing Patterns of Stratification in a Tanjore Village" - Andre Beteille
Note that Andre Beteille (a sociologist) resigned from the President's Knowledge Commission in the wake of the recent reservation debate.
(ii) "Secularism" - which has acquired all manner political connotations:
Secularism is not a British virtue, we benighted Brahmins had to learn !!!
Ours has always been a "Sanathan Dharma".
Secularism arose in the context of Jewish emancipation in British society, and it gained currency in Europe because of the religious persecution of various Christian denominations.
The same Macaulay who wrote that "the goal of an English education was to produce Indians who would be Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect" - was a strident advocate
of Jewish civil emancipation. When you read Christopher Marlowe's "The Jew of Malta", Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" and George Eliot's "Daniel Deronda" - then you begin to appreciate the plight of the Jew in English society.
The advocacy of Jewish emancipation was based on the understanding that it would facilitate Christian conversion - since their absorption as English citizens would diminish their alienation. Alienation lends itself to group-cohesion and community consolidation (Alienation is why we Tamil Brahmins are visiting this site !!!).
Macaulay's goal was to expand the imperial and commercial power of Britain by evolving a doctrine of political liberalism - and so he advocated secularism.
For an extensive account see: "Outside the Fold" by Gauri Viswanathan (an academic, NOT a politician!).

 

[lotus_quartz]

Quite informative.

Dear born_again_aiyer_maami,
Your well researched reposte belies your screen name which suggests ..well, an orthodox madisar sporting maami ! I am extremely impressed with your breadth and depth of knowledge spanning the advent of british rule, macculay's education policy, independance struggle era and post independance period. Where were you all along ? I joined this forum some time in early Jan. 2007 and have not seen any of your posts before. Now the discussion in this forum is assuming highly intellectual dimensions with high calibre people opening up. Wonderful! I too did some research on my own on jewish history, british administrative policy for colonies and in general, study of Indian society by western socialogists, who bring, at least a neutral analysis of facts without getting their views colored by any social group or by the baggage of historical traditions.

Right now, I agree broadly with your assertions. But I reserve the right to dissent! Welcome !!

From your posts it appears that you have never lived in Chennai/TN - and are that you are unfamiliar with ground-realities.

I would like to make two points:

(i) My great-grandfather's era saw the demise of the Maharajas, the Naickers, and the petty kings. The advent of Independence (1947) heralded the transition to a "planned economy". India was shifting from agriculture to industrialization. In this scenario, reservation quotas for college admissions and jobs posed serious impediments to a community which was readjusting to a changing economy.
The 1950s saw dramatic land-reforms in Tamil Nadu. The Brahmin community could no longer sustain themselves through agriculture, and SO the pursuit of a Western education, and non-traditional occupations assumed paramount importance. The pursuit of non-traditional occupations led to the Brahmin exodus: to Delhi (seat of government), to Bombay (the center of commerce), and to Calcutta (for employment, and a transit point to the steel-cities of Jamshedpur, Bhilai, Rourkela, Durgapur, and Asansol) -"Paapi paet ka savaal tha!"
Furthermore, in 1947 India became a democratic republic. In a democracy, numbers matter. In TN the ratio of "forward castes" to "backward castes" was low. The Brahmin exodus simply dwindled their numbers and exacerbated
a bad situation.
Here I refer you to an important book:
"Caste, Class and Power: Changing Patterns of Stratification in a Tanjore Village" - Andre Beteille
Note that Andre Beteille (a sociologist) resigned from the President's Knowledge Commission in the wake of the recent reservation debate.
(ii) "Secularism" - which has acquired all manner political connotations:
Secularism is not a British virtue, we benighted Brahmins had to learn !!!
Ours has always been a "Sanathan Dharma".
Secularism arose in the context of Jewish emancipation in British society, and it gained currency in Europe because of the religious persecution of various Christian denominations.
The same Macaulay who wrote that "the goal of an English education was to produce Indians who would be Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect" - was a strident advocate
of Jewish civil emancipation. When you read Christopher Marlowe's "The Jew of Malta", Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" and George Eliot's "Daniel Deronda" - then you begin to appreciate the plight of the Jew in English society.
The advocacy of Jewish emancipation was based on the understanding that it would facilitate Christian conversion - since their absorption as English citizens would diminish their alienation. Alienation lends itself to group-cohesion and community consolidation (Alienation is why we Tamil Brahmins are visiting this site !!!).
Macaulay's goal was to expand the imperial and commercial power of Britain by evolving a doctrine of political liberalism - and so he advocated secularism.
For an extensive account see: "Outside the Fold" by Gauri Viswanathan (an academic, NOT a politician!).

 

[silverfox]

Dear born_again_aiyer_maami:

What a delightful, refreshing and original name you have, in addition to your scholastic observations! Thank you!

p.s. Correct me, lotus_quartz, if I am wrong; but lotus_quartz was born and brought up in the North

 

[lotus_quartz]

Elementary, Watson!

That's what Holmes would have said ! You have guessed quite rightly. Becoming deft in drawing inferences from available circumstantial evidence , Dr. ?

Dear born_again_aiyer_maami:

What a delightful, refreshing and original name you have, in addition to your scholastic observations! Thank you!

p.s. Correct me, lotus_quartz, if I am wrong; but lotus_quartz was born and brought up in the North

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

Mr. Holmes and Dr. Watson

Thank you for your kind words.
I generally refrain from making posts for the simple reason, that I am then faced with statements like:
"I too did some research on my own on jewish history, british administrative policy for colonies and in general, study of Indian society by WESTERN SOCIALOGISTS, who bring, at least a NEUTRAL ANALYSIS of facts ..."

Unfortunately, I did not realize that one needed to be "WESTERN" in order to be "NEUTRAL". Have they recently discovered some genetic marker that is known to confer "NEUTRALITY" upon the "WESTERN" races ? I must be behind on my reading ...

My Advaitic beginnings taught me that ALL knowledge is SUBJECTIVE !

 

[lotus_quartz]

The idea of referreing to socialogical studies by western people was not because they are superior in their intellect but because they were neutral commentators - without an axe to grind.

When we see the analysis of facts by Indians, we find people at two extremes - those who support and defend brahminical hinduism with unsurpassed zeal and at the other end we have people who condemn hinduism with vitriolic passion and are keen to topple the existing social order overnight without any plans for introducing any other stable order.

Hinduism is too vast a religion to be condemned or put on ivory castle by few zealots. You are most welcome to add your own thoughts and enlighten everyone with clearer understanding of the issues and remedies.

Thank you for your kind words.
I generally refrain from making posts for the simple reason, that I am then faced with statements like:
"I too did some research on my own on jewish history, british administrative policy for colonies and in general, study of Indian society by WESTERN SOCIALOGISTS, who bring, at least a NEUTRAL ANALYSIS of facts ..."

Unfortunately, I did not realize that one needed to be "WESTERN" in order to be "NEUTRAL". Have they recently discovered some genetic marker that is known to confer "NEUTRALITY" upon the "WESTERN" races ? I must be behind on my reading ...

My Advaitic beginnings taught me that ALL knowledge is SUBJECTIVE !

 

[silverfox]

touche' lotus_quartz!

Alright! maami!!

touché lotus_quartz!

Thank you for your kind words.
I generally refrain from making posts for the simple reason, that I am then faced with statements like:
"I too did some research on my own on jewish history, british administrative policy for colonies and in general, study of Indian society by WESTERN SOCIALOGISTS, who bring, at least a NEUTRAL ANALYSIS of facts ..."

Unfortunately, I did not realize that one needed to be "WESTERN" in order to be "NEUTRAL". Have they recently discovered some genetic marker that is known to confer "NEUTRALITY" upon the "WESTERN" races ? I must be behind on my reading ...

My Advaitic beginnings taught me that ALL knowledge is SUBJECTIVE !

 

[aditya]

lotus_quartz;4423]study of Indian society by western socialogists, who bring, at least a neutral analysis of facts without getting their views colored by any social group or by the baggage of historical traditions.

I am puzzled by your remark about western sociologists providing an impartial perspective on Indian society, particularly hindu society.

If one reads Indian history and sociology, and that of any other non-western culture, you will understand that much of the distortions in the non-white history was the work of western 'scholars.' In the case of India, you have the main example of the Aryan Invasion Theory, which later gave away to the equally implausible theory of Aryan Migration Theory, invented by the European missionaries first and later elaborated by European cultural anthropologists, sociologists and historians. Other domains that the western 'scholars' have entered and distorted generously to suit their sociopolitical objectives have been issues on dowry, caste system, north-south language, sati, status of Indian women, dalit movement, etc. There is not a single field relating to Indian society where the westerners have not 'examined' and infused in some way or the other their biased and prejudiced views and conclusions.

Granted there are a handful that have tried remain objective, but the overwhelming of western sociologists, historians and cultural anthropolgists have been far from objective.

 

[murali]

lotus quartz,psarunach,

As`far as i can understand,the real differences stem from two things.In open competition brahmanas will 'corner' perhaps 20-30% of the seats in educational institutions.Also a significant percentage of the top positions will be taken by the brahmanas,by sheer merit.

This is unacceptable to the dravidians.They have a point.This figure was 65-90% in the 50's.but education has produced two generations of mudaliars,naidus who can compete with brahmanas and hold their ground.

But now vanniyars,thevars,nadars and gounders have entered the fray.They want reservation to continue.they have compartmentalised reservation.(ie for MBCS).so mudaliars and naidus will not give up their share.

The other important thing is identity.But generally a tamil brahmana gets along fairly well with others.

for instance,'maami' used a hindi phrase indicating her comfort with the language.My mother,when we were in north india,stuck with only tamilians.even i was not comfotable with hindi,because i had spent most of my youth in madras.but it was ok at school,there is a shared culture.i studied in KV.

generally,those who were born in north india have no problems with hindi.

In contrast a non brahmin is more acutely conscious of his/her heritage.i recently came across a website in which a lady from coimbatore is so assertive of her tamil heritage in delhi.

my athimber who was in the first batch of IAS,a brilliant man,made this remark.He was fluent in english,tamil,hindi,regional language(read,write,speak)."north indiala nummala south indian cholluva,namba oorula velliyalenthu vanthavan cholluva,nanna pattichathan pozhaika mudiyum"

A tamil teacher remarked to me that we are not sufficiently proud of our language.l

Tamils accuse us of having greater love for english and sanskrit.There is an element of truth in the accusation.Given our history as scholastics,we take pride in our vedic heritage.Also the english language opens us locked doors and new vistas.We are able to see ourselves in the light of renaissance and the scientific revolution.

Of course it is also a fact that tamils are also eager to lap up this treasure trove.Many brahmanas have contributed to the growth of tamil.

But increasingly,the tamils who also learn english,are abusing us in tamil web sites.accusing us of being anti-tamil.even we are using english.

This is a real difference.But one cant do anything about it.we have to teach our kids tamil.

In that article,periyaar was abusing tamil.He correctly pointed out that tamil was fossilised(classical tamil was rigid and was mainly the preserve of the vellalas,the highest tamil caste.I also theorise that vellalas modelled classical tamil on the lines of classical sanskrit.Otherwise why should classical tamil be so incomprehensible to ordinary tamils.Because classical tamil had a narrow social base,tamil nationalism did not take off then.) and it was incapable of nourishing tamils.The article was written in the early part of the previous century.

He has contempt for tamil scholars who cant think beyond themselves.He rubbishes the comparison of tamil with mother's milk by pointing out that when the mother herself is famished, she has to additional intake which might be critical.

Remember,periyaar is a balija naicka,whose mother tongue is not tamil,so he has no emotional attachment to it.

On the other hand vellalas,thevars,gounders have an emotional attachment to tamil culture,including its language.

Nowadays,many telugus,like arcot veerasamy,vaiko,subbalakshmi jagadeesan,KN Nehru,Napolean (all DMK politicians) proclaim loudly their tamil credentials.It is no doubt due to pragmatism but also due to the desire to assimilate.

Vanniyars,gounders,thevars are cynical about such attempts.

On the other hand,so long as we are brahmanas,we cannot give up our vedic heritage.

 

[murali]

It tells us something about periyaar.he was blunt and crude.He could grasp reality,but lacked larger sympathy,vision,historical sense.Essentially he was self centred and rootless.

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

Thank you, Aditya ...

Thank you, Aditya. Quite precisely the point I wish to make.
Regrettably, I am quick on the draw, and my impatience gets in the way ...

I am puzzled by your remark about western sociologists providing an impartial perspective on Indian society, particularly hindu society.

If one reads Indian history and sociology, and that of any other non-western culture, you will understand that much of the distortions in the non-white history was the work of western 'scholars.' In the case of India, you have the main example of the Aryan Invasion Theory, which later gave away to the equally implausible theory of Aryan Migration Theory, invented by the European missionaries first and later elaborated by European cultural anthropologists, sociologists and historians. Other domains that the western 'scholars' have entered and distorted generously to suit their sociopolitical objectives have been issues on dowry, caste system, north-south language, sati, status of Indian women, dalit movement, etc. There is not a single field relating to Indian society where the westerners have not 'examined' and infused in some way or the other their biased and prejudiced views and conclusions.

Granted there are a handful that have tried remain objective, but the overwhelming of western sociologists, historians and cultural anthropolgists have been far from objective.