Real achievement of Tamil Brahmins

[sravna]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

There is a perception that the Ashkenazi Jews are the smartest. The number of nobel prizes they have bagged is considered as an evidence to their intelligence. To achieve this highest honor for intelligence, actually one also should be there at the right time and the right place. This is where I think tamil brahmins missed out. They were not in the right place which I would say is America or Europe.

Let us see some statistics. I figured out that roughly about 1-2 lakh tamil brahmins would have been in such a right place in all of recent history. We have had 2 tamil nobel laureates who settled abroad and got the honor. So for every 50,000-1 lakh tamil brahmins settled abroad we have 1 getting the nobel prize.

Now let us see the statistics for the ashkenazi jews. There would be roughly 2 crore ashkenazi jews in the corresponding period. The number of nobel prizes won by them is about 150 or approximately 1 in a lakh. I would say the difference between the two is insignificant.

One could also not argue that only the cream of tamil brahmins went to America, as there are equally intelligent ones in India. Scientific pursuit is like a home turf of the westerners and hence naturally favoring them. So, I would place a tamil brahmin slightly above an ashkenazi jew in intelligence.

 

[sravna]

There is one more way to come to the same conclusion. Brain drain has been maximum in the last 20 years. Let's say from 1900 to 1990 the brightest tamil brahmins stayed in India and the next 20 years the brightest went abroad. So 90 years produced just 1 nobel whereas the 20 years produced 2 nobel prizes.

Thus the chance of getting a nobel prize increased 9 times. So we would have got over 25 nobels and considering that ashkenazi population is 5 times more, we would get very close to the ashkenazi nobel count.

But brahmin population also produced spiritual super geniuses like sankara, ramanuja, madhva and nonpareil rishis of the yore.

All this once again supports my conclusion that the tamil brahmin population is just as good if not better than the ashkenazi jews in intelligence.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sravana Sir,

Greetings. I sincerely hope you are not too serious about the above two posts. I smell a display of superority based on birth/based on caste in the above two posts. I record my protest. I request you to kindly review your posts, please. Thanks.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Raghy,

There is no intention on my part to show brahmin superiority. I just presented facts and a logical interpretation of it given those facts. It is there for everyone to arrive at the same conclusion

It is an irony that in a world where free speech is an aspiration, only favorable ones are well received.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sravana Sir,

Greetings. Only last week I was lamenting to one of our members about some of the thinly veiled 'brahmin bashing' taking place in our forum. For all I know, I may not even be a brahmin, but I know, I grew up in a brahmin home. Since i was going through an extremely stressful situation, I did not want to compound it by taking part in a depressing debate. So, I was lamenting.

Now I see this thread.

Sir, if you are going to compare Hindus to Jews, I would have even accepted that (although by a long shot though). On the one hand you are talking about Jews, identified by a religion; on the other hand you are talking about brahmins, identified by a caste.

Given equal opportunity, a Parayan would have excelled in academic education as well as any brahmin. My village, in 1980 itself produced on 'gold medalist' in commerce post graduate studies(M. Com), belonging to Mudaliyar caste; in 1981, the same vilage produced a 'Gold medalist' in commerce post craduate studies (M.Com) belonging to Parayar community. (If you need proof, I can name the village in your PM. It is well worth a visit. Our village boasts a great Murugan temple too..amoung other temples).

Sir, I look at things as logically as possible. So, kindly talk in praise of Hindu community if like; it is nice to see...but when it is caste specific, it becomes slightly not so nice...

Cheers!

 

[wrongan]

In Brahmin houses elders chanted vedham daily as a routine.They master it by continuous process.Lot of slokas in praise of different dieties are sung by the ladies also.. These make their children to repeat them without much difficulty.By one way this increased the memory power of Brahmin siblings.That was why the brahmin children were good at education.Now in metropolitan and materialistic way of life there are on difference among all people.Now children of all people are faring well depending on their individual labour.So you need trouble yourself to show example for low caste people fairing well in life.Secondly caste difference was possible to be maintained when people of same caste was living collectively in particular locations.Now the city life changed the scenarios.Now brahmins want to preserve their tradition in their private function .Even this is not liked by neobrahmins.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Wrongan Sir,

Greetings. I do npt know about the 'neobrahmins' referred by you. Personally, I have not seen anyone disturbing any private function. Most brahmins follow their own traditions. For example, take Deepavali festival; most NBs celeberate Deepavali the day before the newmoon day, since they don't eat NV food on newmoon day; brahmins celeberate Deepavali on newmoon day....on newmoon day, NBs celeberate 'Nonbu' (நோண்பு) and make Adhirasam (அதிரசம்) on that day... Adhirasam is tasty or what!.....I haven't seen any brahmin lady prepare it that well....(So, we go for trading....boys go to collect as much athirasam as possible trading sweets made from brahmin houses....even today my wife speaks about those experiences).

Mixing all the traditions make the life pleasant for everyone.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

There is one more way to come to the same conclusion. Brain drain has been maximum in the last 20 years. Let's say from 1900 to 1990 the brightest tamil brahmins stayed in India and the next 20 years the brightest went abroad. So 90 years produced just 1 nobel whereas the 20 years produced 2 nobel prizes.

Thus the chance of getting a nobel prize increased 9 times. So we would have got over 25 nobels and considering that ashkenazi population is 5 times more, we would get very close to the ashkenazi nobel count.

But brahmin population also produced spiritual super geniuses like sankara, ramanuja, madhva and nonpareil rishis of the yore.

All this once again supports my conclusion that the tamil brahmin population is just as good if not better than the ashkenazi jews in intelligence.

sravana, two questions.

1) how and what do you feel after this analysis?

2) till about 400 years, starting from the milleniums, it was the sephardims who provided the intellectual backbone for world jewry. all the great mediaeval jewish scholars were sephardim, and it was they, who preserved, along with the muslims, the great works of the greeks, when the roman church was going crazy with its inquisition and theory of geocentric universe. do you feel that tambrams are superior or atleast equal to sephardims too?

thank you.

 

[Vivek_V]

@ Svarna - Let us not boast of anything, we should start a humble journey to actual greatness from a calamity our civilization has faced

"There is a perception that the Ashkenazi Jews are the smartest. The number of nobel prizes they have bagged is considered as an evidence to their intelligence. To achieve this highest honor for intelligence, actually one also should be there at the right time and the right place. This is where I think tamil brahmins missed out. They were not in the right place which I would say is America or Europe. "

Why didn't this "right place" itself become India? Forget comparing ourselves to Jews or any peoples who have achieved, many Indians (TBs included amongst them) have indeed made achievements, let us not compare. But these achievements are still dwarfed by the challenges we have as a civilization.

There is no point of boasting of intelligence or superiority of any sort when we are ourselves in a quagmire of issues.

I would rather that this community be used to question present biases of our society/community and analysed them, discusses psyhcological trends and put to scrutiny our past errors which has lead to where we are now - a nation of poverty struggling to come up. I don't feel we should engage in a boast or heavy present political news unless it has a psychological effect in society due to, say a party's propaganda etc.

Now the stats you bring to speak of the intelligence of so and so group should be irrelevant IMO to this community. It is good to not disregard the good part of our tradition which is the legacy of our forefathers, but nothing worth great pride has happened in or to our civilization given the challenges we have. Many fallacies have been done, and we need to focus on that instead of boasting. Why was it necessary to compare TBs with A. Jews? We shouldn't waste time to discuss or ennumerate such things. Self-praise, whether valid or invalid is certainly seen as drunkeness in pride and may very well be too.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Dear sir:

Two things I would like to point out.

1. This site is named Tamil Brahmins and hence I presume my friend talks about
us. He has not mentioned anything ill about others of TN.

2. Nobel prize alone does not determine your genius. What about Rajaji, C.P.
Ramaswamy Iyer, Subramaniya Siva ( I doubt how many have heard of this great
freedon fighter-cum- philosopher ), Bhagawan Ramana, Kanchi Paramacharya,
Poet Bharathi, Rajam Iyer, Gopalakrishna Bharathi and others. They all are men
of supreme wisdom and their stature can not be judged by prizes.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Mr.Vivek,

Yes, I see your reason. Let us march on. Thanks.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sirs,

The reply to you lies in Vivek's question: Why can't that right place be India?. Actually I am also asking the same question. Why should tamil brahmins or any Indian go to America or Europe and settle down there? Why don't Indians believe as much in India as they do in , say America?

The answer to this lies in the notion somewhat deeply embedded in the psyche of every Indian that anything Western is superior? We need to really start working on getting rid of that notion if we are to be at the forefront. Though my comparison looks a trivial exercise what it does is, trying exactly the above, that all that is western need not be superior, be it intelligence.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

There is a perception that the Ashkenazi Jews are the smartest. The number of nobel prizes they have bagged is considered as an evidence to their intelligence. To achieve this highest honor for intelligence, actually one also should be there at the right time and the right place. This is where I think tamil brahmins missed out. They were not in the right place which I would say is America or Europe.

Let us see some statistics. I figured out that roughly about 1-2 lakh tamil brahmins would have been in such a right place in all of recent history. We have had 2 tamil nobel laureates who settled abroad and got the honor. So for every 50,000-1 lakh tamil brahmins settled abroad we have 1 getting the nobel prize.

Now let us see the statistics for the ashkenazi jews. There would be roughly 2 crore ashkenazi jews in the corresponding period. The number of nobel prizes won by them is about 150 or approximately 1 in a lakh. I would say the difference between the two is insignificant.

One could also not argue that only the cream of tamil brahmins went to America, as there are equally intelligent ones in India. Scientific pursuit is like a home turf of the westerners and hence naturally favoring them. So, I would place a tamil brahmin slightly above an ashkenazi jew in intelligence.

You have left out two eminent TB mathematicians: Ramanujam and Srinivasa Varadan. (please bear in mind that there is no Nobel Prize for mathematics).
Out of the four Nobel prizes awarded for sciences to Indians/persons of Indian origin, three have gone to TBs. Insterestingly two were kindred.
Only Bengal -- though no one has got a Nobel Prize-- has come close to eminence amongst Indians.
J.C. Bose, Satyendranath Bose stand out amongst them.

In fact within India today, Bengalis display greater proclivity for pure sciences.


Rgds.,

 

[sangom]

Even though this forum is named as "tamilbrahmins.com", I think any attempt to prove that tbs were a race/class of intellectual geniuses as jews, and making Nobel Prize (NB) as the measure is evidence of a latent superiority complex, IMO. After all people know that the Nobel Prize is as much influenced by governments' likes and dislikes, currying favour with the "scientific establishment" and the proclivities of the judges themselves; in this way it is like the "padma" awards of the GOI, with the difference that there is a whole lot of money in NB.

If intelligence earning money is the yardstick, perhaps Sabeer Bhatia of hotmail fame, and some others like him should also be considered. But if we look at real genius, we should rate the persons who conceived and executed wonders such as the kutb minar, the thanjai periyagopuram, taj mahal, the shaking pillars of ahmedabad and so on. Curiously, we don't find any brahmins behind these, let alone tbs.

Incidentally, there were many completely illiterate sc/st women in kerala who could memorize a whole lot of folk songs - good enough for one or two large tomes - sung during farming operations, and perhaps the last of that generation (she was a sweeper in a church, in her old age) is now no more - does this not make these ladies head and shoulders above the tbs who grow in an atmosphere where elders chanting vedam daily and womenfolk reciting slokas was constantly there? So, my request to one and all is to forget that intelligence, IQ, scientific proclivity, capacity to memorize by rote were a special characteristic of tbs.

If at all we, as a community, have to have a place in the society of the future, it is first required to wipe out clearly any feeling of such "hidden" glory. Most of us know that all humans have similar brain and gene structures and geniuses are possible from any sample to some extent provided they are subjected to the same levels of advantages and disadvantages.

I do not know whether Shri Sravna is an old person like me, but even if he is, I would request him to forget the tendency to gloat over the so-called intellectual superiority of tbs, a notion gained probably due to the experience of superiority gained in early life from the situations in the past.

 

[wrongan]

Sri.Wrongan Sir,

Greetings. I do npt know about the 'neobrahmins' referred by you. Personally, I have not seen anyone disturbing any private function. Most brahmins follow their own traditions. For example, take Deepavali festival; most NBs celeberate Deepavali the day before the newmoon day, since they don't eat NV food on newmoon day; brahmins celeberate Deepavali on newmoon day....on newmoon day, NBs celeberate 'Nonbu' (நோண்பு) and make Adhirasam (அதிரசம்) on that day... Adhirasam is tasty or what!.....I haven't seen any brahmin lady prepare it that well....(So, we go for trading....boys go to collect as much athirasam as possible trading sweets made from brahmin houses....even today my wife speaks about those experiences).

Mixing all the traditions make the life pleasant for everyone.

Cheers!

There are brahmins who wears sacret thread (poonal) don't do sandhyavandhanam, passing circastic comments about the persons who are doing sandhyavandhanam.At religious functions not showing real interest rediculing the persons who show interest .among the association of non brahmins rediculing every act of brahmins making fun of their language.With heavy heart I mentioned them as "Neo brahmins"They call themselves Brahmins but doesn't follow the brahminical practices.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

I do understand that self praise generally is not desirable. But I think we should go by the need for balance. At this point we ceratinly have the tendency to imitate the west and not be really original in many things. This is more an effect of mindset than anything else.We need to come out of it and strike the right balance in self appraisal so that we can contribute in a much more pioneering way. I think we underestimate our abilities especially when it comes to comparing them with the west.

 

[tbs]

hi

Brahmin stands for

B – BRILLIANT
R – RELIABLE
A – ACTIVE
H – HONEST
M – MODEST
I – INTELLIGENT
N – NOBLE


coutesy....www.keralaiyers.com

regards
tbs

 

[sravna]

sravana, two questions.

1) how and what do you feel after this analysis?

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

With due respects to your age and wisdom, I would like to say that the intention of the analysis is not to derive self satisfaction. As long as these are treated as just facts, I think there is nothing wrong in presenting them. My view is, it is necessary to have exactly the right perspective, neither undue confidence nor humility. I am sure as a very balanced person yourself, you will agree with this.

2) till about 400 years, starting from the milleniums, it was the sephardims who provided the intellectual backbone for world jewry. all the great mediaeval jewish scholars were sephardim, and it was they, who preserved, along with the muslims, the great works of the greeks, when the roman church was going crazy with its inquisition and theory of geocentric universe. do you feel that tambrams are superior or atleast equal to sephardims too?

thank you.

My analysis was based on one popular yardstick of intelligence. There are alternate ones and may be even better ones. One member rightly pointed out that nobel prize is not the only measure of intelligence. In the yardstick that you mention above, sephardims may actually be ahead . Indeed nobel prizes do not measure all the crucial aspects that contribute to one's general intelligence.

 

[suraju06]

Mr. Raghy says"Given an equal opportunity a parayan would have excelled just as a brahmin"

In another forum answering a question the Kaviperarasu vaira muthu said"நான் பிராமணர்களின் பேராற்றலை கண்டு வியக்கிறேன். சந்தர்ப்பம் கிடைத்தால் ஒரு தலித்தும் அப்படி வர முடியும் கருப்பனின் மண்டைக்குள்ளும் மூளை வெளுப்பாகத்தான் இருக்கிறது"

Both these and many others in this forum have been stressing the point that the opportunities were not equal. Now the question is who creates these opportunities? Are they Godsend? If Godsend there cannot be any discrimination. If they are created by the society every one has the freedom to grab these opportunities. If they are created by the brahmins themselves, then we cannot have any complaints.Brahmins can be only as much altruistic as other communities. I think it is fashionable and rewarding to harp on denial of opportunities and promote a victimhood mindset whenever you find that someone is shining to your dislike.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

With due respects to your age and wisdom, I would like to say that the intention of the analysis is not to derive self satisfaction. As long as these are treated as just facts, I think there is nothing wrong in presenting them. My view is, it is necessary to have exactly the right perspective, neither undue confidence nor humility. I am sure as a very balanced person yourself, you will agree with this.

My analysis was based on one popular yardstick of intelligence. There are alternate ones and may be even better ones. One member rightly pointed out that nobel prize is not the only measure of intelligence. In the yardstick that you mention above, sephardims may actually be ahead . Indeed nobel prizes do not measure all the crucial aspects that contribute to one's general intelligence.

sravana,

i must object to your attributing me characterestics that i do not posses ie wisdom or balance, unless ofcourse you implied, 'absence of it', which then i will fully accept. re age, i hope i am not getting senile asking queries like this to you, as with the advancing of age, it is suspected that the level of 'foolery' too appear to go northwards.

re sephardim, it so happens, that medieval european history is among one of my hobbies. at that time the sephardim were still in a state of formation. hence my query to you re whether you have considered sephardim at all. or indeed familiar with that branch of jewry.

re my initial query: as to how you felt: it was just that! did you get a satisfaction that your pov was adequately addressed considering your extrapolation of logic in your conclusion re tambram 'achievements'. hope this explains..thanks.

 

[Vivek_V]

@ N.R. Ranganathan

"Yes, I see your reason. Let us march on. Thanks. "

Much appreciated sir.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[Vivek_V]

@ Sri Sravna - About opportunities

"The answer to this lies in the notion somewhat deeply embedded in the psyche of every Indian that anything Western is superior? "

Indians are not generally the type to give up their civilization's name in face of others, or atleast I have come across those who don't. The reason people do go to foreign countries is because there is genuinely a better scope for research, study and better life. Not saying that it doesn't exist in India at all - but on a whole to see, we have bureaucray and local mafias of land, oil etc who want to go about their own black money scams and local gang wars.

You will notice that many people who did develop India travelled the world. This is not because they felt India was inheritly inferior, we are clearly in times of poverty. A person who even has intelligence must experience the world to nurture that intelligence to develop into ideas - which is why they go to foreign countries. IMO, we shouldn't see it as a bad thing that people are going out of India, its necessary for us to develop.

But finally, those people should find it in their heart to come back and try and face the challenges in India - which people like Nehru for instance did by arriving from England. Most people don't do the last part because they feel comfortable and settled in foreign countries where people respect them too for who they are. Its from their individual choice for a personally comfortable life.

***

We shouldn't go on about ennumerating our greatenss or some great past legacy, others will speak of it if its genuine, won't they? Do we see Europeans go on about what Europeans invented? They don't need to, the very existing world is a western legacy which we (Indians, or for that matter even Chinese etc) failed to capture because of our own society structure and other drawbacks like false ideas of supremacy and greatness. Nobody becomes inheritly superior, its the life they lead that makes them better and productive.

But nothing is too gloomy either, the world is not ending soon and we are gradually coming up now. So we should keep up those efforts. We should find out how we lost out in the past and change for the better. Greatness of men or women in our past should only cross our minds for one reason and that is to give us personal inspiration. It should cross our minds or be mentioned to spread an air of ourselves being great because we were merely born in the same country or society as them. Their accomplishments are theirs, not ours.

I fell the original reason of your post was to assert to the community that TBs to encourage a negative-to-good opinion for TBs to have of themselves. That is what I felt from your post. However, certain members seem to have assumed that your reason for posting was to encourage an excess pride and feeling of superiority in brahmin. Crossing the line to excess pride, is indeed detrimental as it will cloud our perception of things. Perhaps it would be best to continue striving in our efforts to achieve greatnes and leave the world to do the talking about our accomplishments if indeed it is worthy.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[sravna]

Vivek,

It is good to hear all this sense of attachment of Indians to their country. I also believe that many Indians genuinely think that way. But the real problem is, beneath that feeling, a steady even though slow movement towards comforts and physical prosperity in general is happening. It is not yet obvious because of the strong spirituality that has been inculcated into us through centuries is holding out against it. But it will give up sooner or later under repeated onslaught of materialism. That is the danger if we are not foresightful enough.

We need to stick to what we are best at without being out of sync with the rest. The principles, values of our culture should form the core and basis of all our actions or thoughts, just like the westeners practising what they are best at. My recipe always: strike a balance in whatever you do. In this case it is a balance between practising pragmatism and being true to our values.

 

[sravna]

sravana,

i must object to your attributing me characterestics that i do not posses ie wisdom or balance, unless ofcourse you implied, 'absence of it', which then i will fully accept. re age, i hope i am not getting senile asking queries like this to you, as with the advancing of age, it is suspected that the level of 'foolery' too appear to go northwards.

re sephardim, it so happens, that medieval european history is among one of my hobbies. at that time the sephardim were still in a state of formation. hence my query to you re whether you have considered sephardim at all. or indeed familiar with that branch of jewry.

re my initial query: as to how you felt: it was just that! did you get a satisfaction that your pov was adequately addressed considering your extrapolation of logic in your conclusion re tambram 'achievements'. hope this explains..thanks.

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

I know that there is branch called sephardim but I am not all that familiar with their contributions. Thanks for letting me know. Sir, I think you shouldnt be cynical about the achievements of tambrams. With a number of them in a position conducive for success at the international level, I think you should only see a lot more of them getting the highest honors.

btw, the only thing I am not sure about among the three: your age, wisdom and balance, is your age

 

[Vivek_V]

@ Sri Sravna

"But it will give up sooner or later under repeated onslaught of materialism. That is the danger if we are not foresightful enough."

I see Indians of all shades of lifestyle to be frank. An urban setup will always become complex and quiet materialistic. We shouldn't narrow down brahmin culture into a spartan life for all - the disciplines should be by choice, not complusion. Like my sister says "it is like a military school". This is because TB parents in Mumbai) expect great things and not all can be up to deliver that. Having said that I don't see a threat of materialism for the exact reason you say that our culture doesn't incline to it with "strong spirituality". Importantly, our culture doesn't speak of self-denial either as being ideal.

So we should find a moderation in life. Excess inclination to a materialistism is indeed harmful. This can only be balanced out when people are (by themselves) inspired by physical and intellectual pursuits. Such as say studying a certain field out of interest, playing sports, reading ideas of other people, more humble interests of life that don't include gizmos and computer etc - like painting, crosswords for example. These are important to life. Such a thing would balance things out and make life beyond merely having frivilrous fun. But such things can't be forced into anyone, they individually have to discover it. I feel Indians will, no doubt so there is no fear of materialism taking over us for me.

"My recipe always: strike a balance in whatever you do. In this case it is a balance between practising pragmatism and being true to our values."

Be true to values which are pragmatic. "Our values" don't have to be our values if we don't find ourselves disagreeing with them. On the other hand we should always have the spirit to probe and question values or culture in general. If a culture continuously passes the test of doubt/question only does it establish itself truely as worthy. If it doesn't it needs to not exist, and we should re-define it.

Mainly, I feel we had at one point had (and some even do today have) a false idea of what it meant to be great. This included being of so and so lineage, or being of so and so caste by-birth. But when our civilization came to be challenged actually, it lost out because we worshipped the false idea of greatness.

This doesn't go to say that out culture is bad, its just to say that it has fallen into a time when it has degraded causing a dark era. It happens to all civilizations, and needs to be fought if we need to save our society, and our place and honour in human civilization.

Regards,
Vivek.