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Of what does a Brahmin make?

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I will take a dis-favorable Varna if it must be but I will not be denied :) Could you even imagine if we denied other our work? The sins that would incur I dare never imagine. If I must I shall shake this tree until the proper fruit falls but I will never stop watering it in order to make all the fruit fall to my feet.

Dear Boston,

Society cant survive if any profession denies their work to the world.
Thats why one is advocated to preform his/her work and dharma and worry not about the fruits of it.
 
Dear Sri BostonSankara Ji,

You sir, in my opinion have no Varna.

You seem to bring the same black or white coloring from your past sir.

You can be any Varna and at the same time no Varna.

Hinduism is not just Purva Mimamsa. There is also, unconveniently, a branch called Uttara Mimamsa or Vedanta.

Please read there the story of one Satyakama Jabala.

It is good you identify yourself with Purva Mimamsa as a path. Then, you need to conform to those requirements that the followers of this tradition require. You are not going to get initiation just by any logical argument, on today's cultural norms. No amount of ranting will get you there.

So, what is it going to be? Wanting a community to accept you in to a Varna based on your profession, when the descendants of this system do not even know what the differences between a Varna and a Jathi is?

I also notice that you view Christianity as Asat. Sir, this is not the Hindu view.

Sorry, I think you have very militant views to be viewed as a Hindu, even though you profess to be one!

Regards,
KRS
 
Oh my! I am being misunderstood. Christianity is right for those who feel it is right. The argument that ALL IS RIGHT so follow what you came from because ALL IS RIGHT is incorrect. What is Asat for me is Asat for reasons you may never understand. I am not saying Christianity is right but it is NOT right for me. vedanta is beautiful and I am not obsessed with Purva Mimamsa. I study all paths. To tell me to settle with what I was presented with as a child is to tell me to shut up essentially. I turned my back on a Christianity that held many hypocritical beliefs. I am not condemning Jesus' teaching as untruth. Do not tell me I am not something when you have no idea what you are saying. Militant? Let me tell you this good sir. In the Christian theology you (assuming you are Hindu) will suffer IN ETERNITY for your heresy. You will have NO CHANCE to redeem yourself and you WILL NOT reincarnate. You sir are DOOMED. No christian will EVER say otherwise though they will offer you an "olive branch" of peace. . . accept JESUS CHRIST as your ONLY lord and SAVIOR and you will be REDEEMED. How dare you give such black and white logic credence while calling MY VIEWS black and white. This universalist view is not Hinduism. Hinuism is accepting of the vedas, reincarnation, and pluralism, but NEVER exclusionist as such. I am growing VERY TIRED of Vedantins trying to gain acceptance by saying "all is truth" when if such things are believed all of our scriptures lose all credence. How can you accept a faith that damns you yourself as TRUTH?
 
Dear Boston,

I am going to make a light hearted statement here...Ok here goes,if Varna system had started now..I would think you should be Kshatriya.
I see a "fighter" spirit here.You remind me of a young valiant prince.
 
:) I come from a lineage of politicians. You aren't far off.

Truly and sincerely I do thank you all for your input. It really does mean a lot to me. I may be a silly kid (at 35 no less :\ ) but I do thank you all for your time and energy :)
 
Dear Renuka,
NO ONE in their right mind EVER wants to be associated with Brahminism.
May be you want to speak for yourself and your associates who you know of that are aligned to this thinking.
Making a categoric remark such as this needs authentication.
In the US many Brahmins would NEVER identify as such as such as they are WELL AWARE that anyone who has studied recent Indian history considers elitists.
How much is many for you Sir? Numbers, Percentage? I know of people in the same US who do not feel the same way.
Not meaning any slander here but all TamBrahms should know that there IS NO PRIDE in the word Brahmin.
Please take time to read some of the introductory messages in the very same forum.

I feel you are here with a pre conceived notion or message.
 
:) I come from a lineage of politicians. You aren't far off.

Truly and sincerely I do thank you all for your input. It really does mean a lot to me. I may be a silly kid (at 35 no less :\ ) but I do thank you all for your time and energy :)

No problems Dude!!! We are a cool bunch here.
 
Ozone you are correct and that post is terribly worded. Please allow me to clarify.

In the US the main thing that any detractor to Hinduism brings up is (of course ... Varna) many Indians that I know (and this is a personal statement) will not acknowledge their caste regardless of what it is but ofte ESPECIALLY if they are of Brahmin decent as it is often associated with negative things here. That said many indian also lie and claim a Brahmin heritage for whatever their reasons may be. Renuka has asked in several diferent threads why people "WANT TO BECOME BRAHMINS" My post was a rebuttal to that query. it was mean to convey that no one wants the nomeclature only the acknowledgment of the community to study vedas and perform Yajna etc. The NAME "Brahmin" is not what is longed for nor is the classification. I do not want to be a Brahmin I desire acknowledgement in other ways. That quoted post (while harshly worded) was meant to convey that and to convey that whatever she thought that word meant was NOT what we attain to. That is all.

The title has a lot of baggage. This is truth. I try to educate my fellows regarding this ill understood aspect of the faith however it is very true that even the word "Brahmin" is associated with the very system they stand at the top of and in most (uneducated) eyes they are blamed for it.
 
Ozone, there three letters Indian says in my world (academics) to gain instant respect and they are NOT religious. They are I I T. and of course the next words out of their mouth are "of course I am from Andhra!" then I ask about Tirupati and they say "Yeah that's more my parent's thing."


c'est la vie!
 
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Dear Sri BostonSankara Ji,

Please don't get worked up. I am not questioning your choice of Hinduism as your religion.

You see, in Hinduism we look at all paths that lead to Him as valid. What you are describing as Christianity as a theology is perhaps correct. But I am not talking about theology. I am talking about the underlying concepts of a religion - the rest are made up by humans, including Hinduism.

I said what I said, beased on various things you have said.

I was astonished that you said 'Sat Chit Ananda' is easy to obtain. Do you know this is one of what we call as 'Maha Vakya' of our religion? Do you know what you are saying when you say that this is 'easily attained'?

Please sir, before trying to tell those of us who are Hindus what our religion is, you may want to have some humility about our religion.

Just learning Sanskrit, Tamil or even our Scriptures can not impart you that Knowledge. So, please do not get mad at us. I am just trying to help you. But of course, if you think you know better, what can I say? My best wishes to you.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear KRS,

My statement of "easily attained" is based on my experience of ChitAananda through heavy Dhyaana and intense pranayama and yoga which I practice for (collectively) nearly 3 hours daily. I feel that through yama (restriction) and tapas these are relatively attainable by anyone and the Siddhanta Shravana states this as well. I do not mean to throw around heady (and heavy) words but do mean to separate them from an end goal as such. This schism may come from the Siddhanta teachings because the Upanishads do state this is what is to be aimed for. in that there is a schism and I admit that. I guess I feel that Moksha via Samadhi is what we aim for and that SatChitAananda is a graceful gift we all may taste without samadhi. it is our succor and life blood in a way. I have read upanishads and see what you are saying though.

Please note when mentioning "my experience" I left out "Sat" I know no more truth than the ignorance I come here to correct.
 
Sri Shankar,

In my understanding your quest is branching off in various directions. These are a few of the terms you used:

1. Sri Lalitha Tripurasundari
2. Shiva/Shaiva siddhantha
3. Atman
4. Sat-chit-Ananda
5. Nitya karmas
6. Purva-meemamsa

Please note that of the six items above, only item no. 6 has relevance to varNa.

The path to Sri Lalitha Tripurasundari is through "Shakthism", to Shiva it is through Shaiva Siddhantha or thrugh Kashmir Shaivism, the path to "Atman" is through upaniSads, sat-chit-ananda is pertaining to the same "Atman" (advaita approach), nitya karmas are for ritualists depending upon the path they follow. All these do not require any yagnOpavitam.

So I am really unable to understand what your quest is.
 
Nothing restricts me from 1-4 My understanding is that 5 and 6 require the thread as Sandhyavandhanam and chanting of gayatri mantram and performance of homam (5,6) require initiation through the samskara. Please correct me if I am incorrect.
 
Good day All

Some very interesting comments. Not to sound over philosophical. The one thing living in South Africa has taught me, above everything else, including caste, is to be human. Being human is having good feelings, good thoughts, and practicing kindness. Caste similar to apartheid strived to keep people segregated, and created an unbalanced society. Caste was brought to South Africa, but it was not as important as having found unity in our struggle for freedom. Since 1860 we have come a long way, where above all we look for the human in the person rather than caste. I am by no means upset about questioning my birthright or the “Naidoo” surname. My son will continue the Naidoo name, for my daughter it will depend on who she marries. The one thing that I have instilled in them since childhood is good Sanatan dharama. That’s all the legacy we can leave. It does not matter the wealth you accumulate or the career you have, you only leave behind what you have practiced.
History: Coming back to Mr. Kunjuppu’s history on South Africa. Many of us have been brought from India as indentured labourers (better word for a slave), to work on the cane fields. We were still bonded to the masters. After a period of indenture, you could return to India or extend your contract, and be rewarded with a piece of land to cultivate. The people who opted to stay, their priorities were, family, religion and education. The first thing they did was to erect temples, some of which still remain today. On the temple grounds where the first schools started. Our forefathers new at that time, the only way to get of this wheel of oppression and poverty was through education. Our parents have made huge sacrifices to bring us where we are today. There were two classes of Indians that came to South Africa, the merchant class and the indentured labourer. Everybody worked together to get us where we are today. Indians have worked closely with other races to break the chains of apartheid, and we continue to have a big influence in society. That is in a nutshell.
Dear Kunjupu, you are welcome to Durban, we have beautiful temples in Durban, most of them steeped in History. I am a member of the Shree Ambalavaanar and Shree Draupadi Amman Alayam. I am proud to be associated with a temple that is one of the first to be built on African soil. We now have many beautiful temples around the country and one of my favourite temples being the Shree Ayyappa kshetram, in Pretoria, which is the replica of Sabarimala.
I apologise for this long reply, and hope that I satisfied some of your questions.
Have a great day and weekend ahead.
Kind regards Marvin
 
Nothing restricts me from 1-4 My understanding is that 5 and 6 require the thread as Sandhyavandhanam and chanting of gayatri mantram and performance of homam (5,6) require initiation through the samskara. Please correct me if I am incorrect.

Item no. 5 may or may not require thread. What is important for nitya karma for Shaivism or Shakthism is "deeksha" or initiation. In fact about 500 years or so ago, brahmins were NOT involved in tantras.

If you talk about "Shakthism", their sandhya-vandana and gayatri is "tantric" and it has nothing to do with vedic gayatri. As I understand, if there is a need for thread, the guru or the initiator takes care of doing the needful. Same is the case with kashmir shaivism, I think. I am not much acquainted with that branch.

Performance of homams are basically of two types - one vedic and the other tantrik. The tantrik variety I have alredy explained above.

As regards the vedic variety, which are called "yajnas or ishtis or yaagas", here only the performing priests or "Srautins" need to be a brahmin. The "yajamana" or the beneficiary of the "Yajna" need not be so. There are plenty of examples for that. For ready reference, the "aSvamedha yaaga" was performed by kings or emperors, they were hardly brahmins or priests.

Hope I am clear.
 
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Another question zebra16 Sir...

I do not have the text in front of me but when we pray the Chamakam do we not ask for Shrauta to be granted to us in anuvaka 1 and by extension is it considered OK to chant rudram / chamakam for those who arent bestowed with the thread? Is it not Yajur Veda and therefore not to be practiced by those without?

PS Sri Rudraprashnaha is my favorite prayer and I will chant it till death regardless. :)
 
One point I would like to emphasize. In the quest for brahmin bashing that has taken place in the past 500-1000 years and that continues to take place even now, everyone forgets that it was the brahmins who have kept the scriptures alive, mostly by memory alone, for over 3000 years, even as other varNas were very busy in earning secular livelihood and had sort of abandoned the vedas etc.
 
Another question zebra16 Sir...

I do not have the text in front of me but when we pray the Chamakam do we not ask for Shrauta to be granted to us in anuvaka 1 and by extension is it considered OK to chant rudram / chamakam for those who arent bestowed with the thread? Is it not Yajur Veda and therefore not to be practiced by those without?

PS Sri Rudraprashnaha is my favorite prayer and I will chant it till death regardless. :)

I do not think so. If you are referring to the phrase, "Srutischa me SrAvascha me", it means the facility to "sing or chant the praises" and ability to "hear" such chanting.

When rudram and chamakam is chanted in temples or on occasions like Siva rAtri etc. there are 1000s of devotees present of all types and calibres, is it not? Where is the question that a brahmin alone should hear it?
 
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Exactly what I was referring to! Thanks! It really isn't the easiest language to grasp no matter how much effort I put in! Sadly (or fortuitously) it seems Chemistry and Calculus love me far more than Sanskrit!!!!
 
Exactly what I was referring to! Thanks! It really isn't the easiest language to grasp no matter how much effort I put in! Sadly (or fortuitously) it seems Chemistry and Calculus love me far more than Sanskrit!!!!

It is in fact said to be an easily learn-able language, very nicely structured. If you learn the "dhAtu-paTha" or the roots of the words and word formation you can make progress faster than expected. I think it is very close to German language of the europeans.
 
This is a post meant for fun, loving, spiritual, and cultural debate. Nothing more and nothing less is meant by it.

What makes a Brahmin? Here are 3 questions please answer all and feel free to elucidate upon your own answers. I would prefer if no one commented upon anyone's answers directly and simply put forth their opinion. This website seems too full of rebuttal and sadly lacking in original opinion and this is an attempt to remedy that. Let us not devolve into argument. . .

What makes person a Brahmin? Is it Nature or Nurture? Here are three unique scenarios. . .

Scenario #1) An erudite Brahmin couple are walking through the woods and come upon a beautiful (but clearly Caucasian child) they take it in and save it's life rearing it in the deepest of Vedic tradition. At age 10 the child is ready for pathasala . . . Is it Brahmin? It certainly wasn't by birth but most certainly was by environment. . .

Scenario #2) A scientist simple clones the genetic code of an active Brahmin priest. The child is raised in a wholesome way yet devoid of religion. The child becomes an adult and decides to follow science as a lifestyle disregarding religion completely. It is a complete and total copy of the Brahmin priest in every way except for it's embracing of Sanatana Dharma. Does this child have a birthright?

Scenario #3) A Brahmin couple living separate from religion adopts a child the child is Brahmin yet it's own parents so devoid of culture gave it up. Does it have a birthright even though it's own active Brahmin parents laugh at their own culture and press for things like attendance in IIT in Andhra moreso that religiosity?

I can't wait to hear your input!
-
Shankar


Hello Shankar Sir,

It is so rare to come across one who wants to have "upanayana"; Good wishes!!

A BRAHMIN means one having the complete knowledge of BRAHMAM; i.e GOD or Almighty whichever name you wish to give.

We have two examples of Conversion to Brahminism; Sage Vishwamitra who a Kshatriya by birth became a "BRahma Gnani" by Tapas and realised the ultimate.
Conversion as a Brahmin, by doing "Upanayana" was done by Mahakavi Bharathiar. He wanted to uplift all the people and did a conversion to a dalit boy Kanakadasa and pronounced him as a Brahmin. Nowadays, I doubt may be VHP is conducting conversions to Hinduism and not specific cults. Arya samaj was also doing conversions but they may not agree with your ritualistic point of view.

The first point in your question is the crux of the novel "Gora" written by Rabindranath Tagore. If you have time and interest, try reading it. It deals with Hinduism in pre-independence times,the Arya samaj and their view to abolish rituals and all that in a complete and debating outlook.

Is Brahminism only rituals or something else?

Rituals are part of the community; at the sametime they are a process;they are part of the journey and not the destination, IMHO. The essence of the rituals is to instil the mental, physical and spiritual discipline needed to attain the goal of spiritual knowledge. If you have crossed the road of rituals and attained the next stage of meditation, you may not worry about this one.

One who has the realisation of Brahman is the true BRAHMIN and nowadays we are more by birth only.

My Father was a Devi Upasaka and he gave initiation to even NB's who are devout and spiritually inclined. One of them has a Lingam (Rasa linga made by my Father) for worship and worships it daily. He never felt the need for upanayana nor my father felt it was necessary or mandatory.

To have Deeksha or Initiation, Upanayana is not a pre-requisite. Hinduism has several pathways as you would have known.

Being a Brahmin is akin to living nearby a temple; by birth you are endowed with a status - as colour, genes, in-built traits like that. If you wish to go to a temple,say Srirangam, if you live there itself it is easy; if you don't it is also ok. The desire to go to a temple and worship should happen in one's heart. At the same time, even people who live far and wide from Srirangam are also welcome to the temple; but they have to put some extra effort. That's all!

Pls let us know when you succeed in your effort!

Regards
anamika
 
Hello Shankar Sir,

It is so rare to come across one who wants to have "upanayana"; Good wishes!!
Dear Anamika,
Coming from some one residing in Boston, you may want to read through other stuff of the author to confirm if you really feel so.
 
dear renus,

i need to, now, give you some background as to south african tamils.

in the early 1900s, many many from tamil nadu/andhra went to africa, to work in the fields, build the railroads. this was not just the union of south africa, but also the then north south rhodesia kenya uganda tanganika and zanzibar.

the east african railroad was built, manned by south indians, who eventually when all these countries gained independence in the 1960s joined their brethren in south africa or (thanks to opting for british passport) moved to england.

the south african tamils, thanks to apartheid, introduced by the national party of the dutch boers, 1948 i think, was cut off from india culturally and otherwise. this was not the period of internet and so cut off means cut off.

for close to 40 years 4 generations grew up, as second class citizens in apartheid africa, the sons and daughters of the erstwhile labourers, now professionals as lawyers, teachers doctors and built their own living colonies.

the caste names are just surnames, as you will find naidoo, chetty moodli padayachee pillay and such tamil/telugu castes except iyers.

these have their own tamil temples, mostly in durban, without the benefit of brahmin priests till apartheid ended, and i do not know the situation now. i have south african tamil hindu friends, whose grand father or grand mother, officated as priest or priestess in these temples, and they have maintained their faith inspite of so many difficult circumstances, that each time, i see a SA tamil hindu, i am overwhelmed with emotion.

post apartheid, there has been resumed communication to india. the indian government sensing the interest in india, introduced hindi classes in their consulates. the idiots did not know acknowledge understand that a sizeable number of indian origins there are tamils. i do not know if tamil classes have been sponsored by the delhi wallahs. to me it is the grossest display of cultural arrogance, in the name of bharat, ie not acknowledging the cultures that make up to form india.


please do not cast caste aspiration on marvin naidoo's name. it is just a name. over there naidoos marry chettys who marry padayachees and so on. those hindus have thrown off the albatross of caste from their shoulders.

btw these are a pretty fun loving lot. i used to go to their annual diwali and pongal parties...lots of music, dancing..et al :)

ok?


i can go on..but i will stop here.

Dear K sir,

SA Hindus are some of the most hardy and spirited group of people with a lot of odds stacked against them. My parents have visited Durban and if these people had to endure aprtheid, post aprtheid is even worse, i believe. Today with black affirmative action (btw SA govt looked to Malaysia for this!) the ethnic Indians find it very hard to find their place in the SA sun but they do persevere and hence the migration to Canada/Britain in droves. Not very different from the tb story in TN it seems.
 
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