No Brahmins, No Tamil!!

[Visalakshi Ramani]

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All roads lead to Rome!
All topic lead to this!
Eyes down for the next round of B.B!
:ballchain:

:whip:

:boxing:

:brick:

So it is time for me to quit the thread for my own good!

 

[sangom]

The problem is in simply transferring the guilt and blame on the person who is being bashed from the person who hates and bashes!

If the dravidians claim that they hate brahmins because of the supposed supremacist feelings of brahmins, then they should be considered as the biggest hypocrites! For they themselves harbor supremacist feelings and thats why one sees hundreds of caste divisions among them.

Shri KB,

"Brahmins" as defined by the purushasooktam hymn were most probably not indigenous to the dravidian society. Though there are terms like 'anthanar' or 'paarpanar' in old Tamil literature, imo, there is no conclusive evidence to equate those with the vedic brahmins; on the contrary scholars seem to think that these terms might have referred to the native seers, sages and mendicants - may be jain or may be entirely peculiar to the dravidian culture.

The possibility of the veda-chanting brahmins having been brought to Tamizhakam by some king/s is more and when such brahmins came down south, the population as also later commentators might have used the terms anthanar, arasar, vaisikan, velanmaanthar to denote the four castes brahmin, kshatriya, vaisya and sudra respectively. The NBs of Tamil Nadu have this feeling that tabras are migrants who came and colonised and lorded over the entire people, unjustly; this is similar to what prompted Gandhi to announce "Quit India" to the veLLaikkaaran. Is it not natural then, this BB by the NBs of TN?

Hence we may be assuming some of the Sangam period poets to have been brahmins though in actuality the four-caste system of the veda might not have become commonplace here in Tamilnadu. Is this not a probability?

 

[Raji Ram]

All roads lead to Rome!............

When the same members of this forum participate and same groups give likes to one another in their own group

(Sri. Ravi is an exception, though!), how else will the discussions be? But, one great thing about the word 'Brahmin'

(be it brahmin or non brahmin) is that, if it appears in the title of the thread, it will get numerous likes and the most

coveted five start status too! Long live the WORD brahmin!! :angel:

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Some books say that Brahmins were originally priests. We cannot
just opine like that. There were people who were Scholars and
Great Teachers of Upanishads, Vedas etc. beside some have even
taken pains to conduct Gurukulams.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

When the same members of this forum participate and same groups give likes to one another in their own group (Sri. Ravi is an exception, though!), how else will the discussions be?

dear madam,
You are missing a salient point.
Some people are universal recipients
and never ever donors. :nono:

But, one great thing about the word 'Brahmin'

(be it brahmin or non brahmin) is that, if it appears in the title of the thread, it will get numerous likes and the most

coveted five start status too! Long live the WORD brahmin!!
[/QUOTE]

The five star coveted status has been given for the matter densely packed in that long opening post opcorn:
and certainly NOT for the word 'brahmin' included in the title.

Thirdly Mr. Kunjuppu who alway gives 'likes' to your posts and does not even read my posts, has given his like for post # 24. So all the "likes" are NOT mutual either! :tea:

To summarize....

According to the other B.B s
"Down down Brahmins!"

According to you,
"Long live their NAMES!"

Nobody ever blesses
"Long live Brahmins!" :tsk:
Am I correct???

 

[suraju06]

Please refer post #26:

The NBs of Tamil Nadu have this feeling that tabras are migrants who came and colonised and lorded over the entire people, unjustly;

When did the NBs of Tamilnadu appoint somebody living in Trivandrum as their mouthpiece? The maximum that can be said by looking at the literature that is available is only that the hardcore kazhagamites are the ones who have this feeling. Not all the NBs as is made out here. I have many NB friends who think that this all pure hot air let out by Kazhagam people for promoting their own agenda.

 

[prasad1]

Let our larger interest be really large, why must it be as narrow as to include only the less fortunate "brahmin"? From what I have observed, the less fortunate Brahmins, I have a few among my relatives, are so much more well off than an average BC, MBC, or Dalit. So, I submit for your consideration sir, let us take a truly larger interest and look for ways to helping the truly forgotten and abjectly poor, irrespective of jAti.

It is the most sensible suggestion I have heard. I applaud that, and second it.

 

[prasad1]

Please refer post #26:



When did the NBs of Tamilnadu appoint somebody living in Trivandrum as their mouthpiece? The maximum that can be said by looking at the literature that is available is only that the hardcore kazhagamites are the ones who have this feeling. Not all the NBs as is made out here. I have many NB friends who think that this all pure hot air let out by Kazhagam people for promoting their own agenda.

These migration theories are all suspected. There is no concrete proof as to the exact timing and sequence of events. We do not have proper research or scientific evidence. We are simply going by some western writer's imagination and corroborating with some ancient literature of unspecified dates. We know that History is always biased by the opinion of the writer and their agenda. It is frustrating that we are not able to come to a sequence of events with time periods that is acceptable to all. But then again we too have an agenda. LOL

 

[Nara]

Thirukkural does have several verses upholding caste system that was prevalent in TN at that time.

Thirukkural upholding caste system? prevalent at that time, is this the escape hatch?? Anyway, prove it that Thirukkural upholds caste system.

The motive of "upper" caste dravidian scholars is to blame brahmins and brahmins alone for the caste system. Only then, they 1) can justify racial discrimination against TN brahmins 2) can continue to subjugate "lower' castes while pointing fingers at brahmins.

Hence, it is in the interest of these dravidian scholars to whitewash all references to caste/varna system in tamil literature!

Such arguments of dravidian scholars are not vidandavadam. They should be taken seriously as they try to distort history!

Yes, the arguments of Dravidian scholars must be taken seriously and answered in a rational way. Just saying they have ulterior motives and vague accusation like "whitewashing" are complete non-sequiters.

What if they have motives you find nefarious, would that automatically make their argument invalid? If you think they are "whitewashing" prove it, simply making vague accusations is nothing more than taking cheap shots.

The charge is Thirukkural is a text that is not specific to any religion (some say secular) promoting universal moral values, into which Parimelazagar (P) inserted noxious Brahminical Dharmashasthras by way of offering interpretations. It is a fact that P claims Manu as the inspiration for many Kurals. The Dravidian scholars show why this interpretation cannot be the intent of Thiruvalluvar and argue that this is an attempt to contaminate Thirukkural with Brahminical varna ideology. I find their arguments persuasive.

Now, to rebut their arguments, whatever may be their motives, one needs to show irrefutably that Parimelazhagar's interpretations are what Thiruvalluvar intended. Do that and we can have a meaningful discussion. Simply saying they have motives, and want to whitewash amounts to nothing more than ad hominems.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

The problem is in simply transferring the guilt and blame on the person who is being bashed from the person who hates and bashes!

If the dravidians claim that they hate brahmins because of the supposed supremacist feelings of brahmins, then they should be considered as the biggest hypocrites! For they themselves harbor supremacist feelings and thats why one sees hundreds of caste divisions among them.

"For they themselves harbor supremacist feelings and thats why one sees hundreds of caste divisions among them."

Here is my analysis:

1. Not all Brahmins have Supremacist Feelings.. I estimate about 30% of total harbor that SF.

2. Not all Dravidians hate or bash Brahmins... I estimate about 30% of the total do it.

3. The Original Architects of Caste Hierarchy were Vedam writing Sanskrit speaking Vedic Brahmins. They invented this Monster... now it's impossible for anyone to slay it..

4. I also believe that Middle Castes do hate or bash the castes under them..taking the original lessons from the Brahmins.

5. Now, some of the Brahmins want to re-write the known History to change the Name of the Game!

I plead with them this: Just accept the History... move away from the SF if you still harbor.. earnestly work towards a Society of Equality, and Create Equal Opportunity for ALL...

Let's not worry about Equal Outcome... that depends on the hardwork of the individuals...

Cheers.

 

[Nara]

....coveted five start status too! Long live the WORD brahmin!!

Mrs RR, what is this coveted five star, what does it mean, why is it coveted, who gives it, how does one get it? Not that I want any stars, just curious....

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Please refer post #26:



When did the NBs of Tamilnadu appoint somebody living in Trivandrum as their mouthpiece? The maximum that can be said by looking at the literature that is available is only that the hardcore kazhagamites are the ones who have this feeling. Not all the NBs as is made out here. I have many NB friends who think that this all pure hot air let out by Kazhagam people for promoting their own agenda.

Who is claiming to be the "mouthpiece" of anyone?

No one is appointed to do anything.... it's all freewheeling views of individuals to the topic on hand.. this is after all an Open Public Forum.

Why would people take such a negative view on some of the posters here?

 

[Nara]

Who is claiming to be the "mouthpiece" of anyone?

Y, this was a comment on Sangom sir. Making gratuitous personal comments about the poster with intent to mock is an integral part of the MO for a few people here, it is so sad and a pity ....

 

[Raji Ram]

..........
Some people are universal recipients and never ever donors.

Dear Sister!

I am the only person in the above category! You could have said it....

The five star coveted status has been given for the matter densely packed in that long opening post
and certainly NOT for the word 'brahmin' included in the title.

If it is so, I am very happy indeed!

Thirdly Mr. Kunjuppu who alway gives 'likes' to your posts and does not even read my posts, has given his like for post # 24. So all the "likes" are NOT mutual either!

Not always.... You can say many times!

There is exception for everything, I suppose.

Nobody ever blesses "Long live Brahmins!" Am I correct???

Let the name at least live long... Pure brahmins are very rare to see in Kaliyuga! எங்கே பிராமணன்? :fish2:

 

[Raji Ram]

Mrs RR, what is this coveted five star, what does it mean, why is it coveted, who gives it, how does one get it? Not that I want any stars, just curious....Cheers!

Dear Prof. Sir,

This shows that you are not reading all the threads. You can see five stars appearing near the title of some threads.

I got five star status to two of my threads in the literature section and had no idea as to how I got it. After joining another

forum, I learnt that if one person rates it as excellent then the five star is given. It is coveted because some newbies write

that their aim is to get five star for the thread they have started! And, there are some people who wish to get the status

and even ask for it!

Usually the rating is like this:

Five stars: Excellent; Four stars: Good; Three stars: Average; Two stars: Bad and One star: Terrible!

Hope this clears your doubts. May be you know these already?

Regards...........

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Shri KB,

"Brahmins" as defined by the purushasooktam hymn were most probably not indigenous to the dravidian society. Though there are terms like 'anthanar' or 'paarpanar' in old Tamil literature, imo, there is no conclusive evidence to equate those with the vedic brahmins; on the contrary scholars seem to think that these terms might have referred to the native seers, sages and mendicants - may be jain or may be entirely peculiar to the dravidian culture.

The possibility of the veda-chanting brahmins having been brought to Tamizhakam by some king/s is more and when such brahmins came down south, the population as also later commentators might have used the terms anthanar, arasar, vaisikan, velanmaanthar to denote the four castes brahmin, kshatriya, vaisya and sudra respectively. The NBs of Tamil Nadu have this feeling that tabras are migrants who came and colonised and lorded over the entire people, unjustly; this is similar to what prompted Gandhi to announce "Quit India" to the veLLaikkaaran. Is it not natural then, this BB by the NBs of TN?

Hence we may be assuming some of the Sangam period poets to have been brahmins though in actuality the four-caste system of the veda might not have become commonplace here in Tamilnadu. Is this not a probability?

I agree that there are many possibilities as for as these migration stories are concerned. Can it be said with 100% certainty that the brahmins of today are descendants of ancient tamilakam's anthanars and paarppanars? Perhaps not! But this does not prove that the terms anthanars and paapanars found in tamil literature were not part of a caste/varna system.

It is not true that only the brahmins migrated. It is not true that the brahmins lorded over the rest! Just because the brahmin-bashing NBs or Sangom feel so, it does not become the truth. The irony here is that many of these very same NBs, who hate and bash the brahmins blaming them of enslaving them, also claim that they are kshatriyas and descendants of kings - the cheras, the chozas, the pandiyas, the kalabrahs, the pallavas etc etc It is these kings who lorded over the rest and not the brahmins! Therefore, it is pitiful that some members of this forum could not see this hypocrisy and call these hatemongers for what they are. Instead, these members provide intellectual support for such hatred practiced against brahmins. All in the name of AV! Sad indeed!

 

[Nara]

... May be you know these already?

Not at all Mrs. RR, my questions were genuine. Thanks for the detailed response. Yes, I have noticed some threads with stars beside them and used to wonder what that was all about. Now you made it clear, and for that I wish all your threads five stars .

Thank you ....

p.s. you have been up from so early, you must be still under jet lag!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

This is with reference to Yamaka's post #34

1. Pulling such estimates out of thin air does not behoove well for an atheist who prides on being rational! I had already written here that wholesale condemnations and generalizations are wrong. The fact that some people seem to realize this truth only when NBs are discussed points to their caste prejudice!

2. The faults of the NB casteists are their own. They cannot escape by pointing fingers at others. They and they alone are responsible for atrocities they perpetrate on "lower" castes. They also should be held responsible for the hatred they practice against brahmins.

3. As far as TN is concerned, the history written mostly by dravidianist scholars is a distorted history. The rewriting of such distorted history is inevitable. The whole edifice on which the brahmin-bashers construct their hatred is dependent on this distorted history. Therefore the resistance of brabas against finding the "whole truth" in this matter is understandable!

And for Yamaka's benefit, most of this re-writing is not being done by brahmins.

 

[Nara]

1. Pulling such estimates out of thin air does not behoove well for an atheist ....


2. The faults of the NB casteists are their own........

3. As far as TN is concerned, the history written mostly by dravidianist scholars is a distorted history.......

One more wild ad hominem without any fact to back it up.....

 

[கால பைரவன்]

One more wild ad hominem without any fact to back it up.....

When Yamaka writes that he estimates 30% of brahmins to be supremacists and 30% of non-brahmins to be brahmin-bashers, does he provide any facts to back it up? He did not. So there is nothing wrong in saying that he pulled them out of thin air!

When Yamaka writes here that "some brahmins try to rewrite history to change the name of game" is it not an ad hominem? Why does he care who is rewriting the history? If Yamaka can conveniently reject history he does not like, why cannot others do it?

 

[Nara]

When Yamaka writes that he estimates 30% of brahmins to be supremacists

So, your argument is, you are right because Y did it too??? Logically fallacy written all over it.

Y said it was his estimate. Instead of asking "him" to backup his estimates, you launch into a fact free criticism of all NBs and Dravidian scholars -- this is what I was objecting to. Hope it is clear.

Cheers!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

So, your argument is, you are right because Y did it too??? Logically fallacy written all over it.
!

No! That was not my argument! I was trying to point out the fallacy in Yamaka's argument. Yamaka likes the history that he has read. So he criticizes re-writing of the history that he likes by launching into an ad-hominem attack without realizing that most people involved in "re-writing" are not brahmins!

But I am curious why Nara is quick to question KB but has no issues with Yamaka's post especially when KB's post is a reply to that of Yamaka?

 

[Nara]

...But I am curious why Nara is quick to question KB but has no issues with Yamaka's post especially when KB's post is a reply to that of Yamaka?

KB, you are referring to yourself in the third person, are you running for office or something ?

KB, I agree with what Y is trying to say, so I don't have any compelling reason to question what he says are his estimates. On the other hand, you disagree with him and would like to question him, and that is not only your right, it is a right I would gladly encourage you to exercise. But, instead of asking him to justify his estimates you launched into a fact free diatribe against NBs in general and Dravidian scholars, this is what I am objecting to.

Cheers!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

This was Yamaka's post.

"For they themselves harbor supremacist feelings and thats why one sees hundreds of caste divisions among them."

Here is my analysis:

1. Not all Brahmins have Supremacist Feelings.. I estimate about 30% of total harbor that SF.

2. Not all Dravidians hate or bash Brahmins... I estimate about 30% of the total do it.

3. The Original Architects of Caste Hierarchy were Vedam writing Sanskrit speaking Vedic Brahmins. They invented this Monster... now it's impossible for anyone to slay it..

4. I also believe that Middle Castes do hate or bash the castes under them..taking the original lessons from the Brahmins.

5. Now, some of the Brahmins want to re-write the known History to change the Name of the Game!

I plead with them this: Just accept the History... move away from the SF if you still harbor.. earnestly work towards a Society of Equality, and Create Equal Opportunity for ALL...

Let's not worry about Equal Outcome... that depends on the hardwork of the individuals...

Cheers.

This was my response.

This is with reference to Yamaka's post #34

1. Pulling such estimates out of thin air does not behoove well for an atheist who prides on being rational! I had already written here that wholesale condemnations and generalizations are wrong. The fact that some people seem to realize this truth only when NBs are discussed points to their caste prejudice!


2. The faults of the NB casteists are their own. They cannot escape by pointing fingers at others. They and they alone are responsible for atrocities they perpetrate on "lower" castes. They also should be held responsible for the hatred they practice against brahmins.


3. As far as TN is concerned, the history written mostly by dravidianist scholars is a distorted history. The rewriting of such distorted history is inevitable. The whole edifice on which the brahmin-bashers construct their hatred is dependent on this distorted history. Therefore the resistance of brabas against finding the "whole truth" in this matter is understandable!


And for Yamaka's benefit, most of this re-writing is not being done by brahmins.

First point is a response to rationalist Yamaka's estimates. Second point is rejecting his accusation of brahmins for faults of NB's who indulge in caste discrimination. Third point is a response to his ad-hominem attacks.

That is all!

 

[Yamaka]

This is with reference to Yamaka's post #34

1. Pulling such estimates out of thin air does not behoove well for an atheist who prides on being rational! I had already written here that wholesale condemnations and generalizations are wrong. The fact that some people seem to realize this truth only when NBs are discussed points to their caste prejudice!

2. The faults of the NB casteists are their own. They cannot escape by pointing fingers at others. They and they alone are responsible for atrocities they perpetrate on "lower" castes. They also should be held responsible for the hatred they practice against brahmins.

3. As far as TN is concerned, the history written mostly by dravidianist scholars is a distorted history. The rewriting of such distorted history is inevitable. The whole edifice on which the brahmin-bashers construct their hatred is dependent on this distorted history. Therefore the resistance of brabas against finding the "whole truth" in this matter is understandable!

And for Yamaka's benefit, most of this re-writing is not being done by brahmins.

Hello KB and others:

1. You don't like my estimate. I expect you to give yours.. Granted, my estimate is from my talking to lots of people that I know here both Bs and NBs on this topic. I don't expect that this estimate to be very accurate; I am willing to consider yours, if you care to make one.

2. I stand by my comment: Yes, there are "middle caste" NBs who ill treat and mistreat the lower caste people.. I condemn it. I argue that this is what they learned from the upper most caste people in the Caste Hierarchy - the Brahmins for 30 centuries, at least.

You don't believe it... Fine with me.

3. I was talking about the Original Architects of the Caste Hierarchy in India: They were the Vedic People - the Brahmins.

How this Original Vedam writing Sanskrit speaking people are different from the present day Brahmins is for the historians/geneticists to sort it out.

I have also observed that most of the present day TBs don't know much about Sanskrit, and have inter-married with dark colored Dravidians for a long long time.

Therefore, genetically most of us are heterozygous (a Mandelian Term for mixed genes) for our skin color.

This is my argument to tell the Brahmin bashers that most of us are "mixed people or races" - in each one of us the other race is hidden. Then, what's the point of hating the Brahmins or NBs?

Clearly, I am trying to be a Bridge Builder, here. LOL.

Cheers.



ps. On estimates, please follow me elsewhere on the 2G Notional or Presumptive LOSS (in Politics Thread) by CAG: RP Singh the Field Auditor General contends that it was less than Rs. 2700 Crores, while CAG chief Roi says it is Rs. 176,000 Crores.

And the Govt says there was NO REAL loss.

This tells me that any Estimate can be considered wrong... ROFL.!