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No Brahmins, No Tamil!!

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I believe that Tamil would be deprived of some of its greatest works if it had not been for the contribution of a number of great Brahmin proponents - please read my research below and let me know what you think.

Tamil is one of the oldest, richest and sweetest languages in the world. A great many people, irrespective of their religion and caste, have shed their blood and sweat to foster and preserve the language and the culture.

We salute all those great. Yet a lot of mischievous propaganda by the Dravidian political parties in Tamil Nadu has misled the public to a great extent that they really believed Brahmins were alien to Tamil culture. But anyone who goes deeper in to ancient Tamil literature known as Cankam (also called Sangam) literature would find out that without Brahmins Tamil would have died or at least become poorer two thousand years ago. The reason being Brahmins were the teachers of that language, like in other parts of India.

So much was their contribution that any deletion of references to words like Brahmins, Vedas, Yagas, Sanskrit words, Sanskrit names from those books would leave the Tamil literature like a piece of virus infected software. That is to say it would be incomplete without their contribution. Literally hundreds of references are there in the books. Ramayana, Mahabharata and Puranic references are also in abundance.

The oldest Tamil book Tolkappiyam says Tamils worshipped the Vedic gods Indra, Varuna and Vishnu (Ref. Porul Adhikaram-1.5).

Two great Tamil kings were praised for their great yagnas- Rajasuyam vetta Perunarkilli and Mudukudumi Peruvazithi. The first one was a Choza who did the great fire ceremony called the Rajasuyam. We knew from Mahabharata that Dharma (Yudhisthira) did this yaga. The second one was a Pandya king whose country was full of Yupa pillars. He was praised as if he would bow only on two occassions - when he goes around a temple or when he sees a Brahmin. He was indomitable and invincible that the entire world would bow to him (ref. Purananuru Poem 6).

Nalliakodan’s palace is open to Brahmins 24 hours a day, says Sirupantruppadai. Seraman Selvak Kadungo Vaziyathan will bow only to Brahmins, says Pathitru Pathu. In short we have so many references about kings bowing only before Gods and Brahmins.


Kapila was the giant among Cankam poets. He composed the greatest number of poems (over 230) in Cankam period. Not only he composed Tamil poems, he taught a North Indian King Brahadhathan and helped him write a poem in Tamil. When he ridiculed Tamils, Kapila taught him a real lesson. Kapila was praised by other Cankam poets as “A Brahmin of spotless character”.

A lot of Cankam poets have Sanskrit Names: Damodaran, Kesavan, Mahadevan, Vishnudasan, Kannadasan, Valmiki, Sahadevan, Gauthaman, Kausikan (Viswamitra), Kavya (written as Kappiya), Acharya (aasaan), Brahmachari.

Over twenty Tamil poets are Nagas! They may not be Tamils. There is no reference to Nagas in five fold land division of traditional Tamils: Kurinji, Mullai,Marutham,Neithal and Palai landscapes have their own set of peoples and their own Gods such as Skanda Murugan,Vishnu,Indra, Varuna and Durga. Naga race lived in different parts of India.


The word Veda was beautifully translated by the Tamil poets. One poet described Veda as ‘Ezutha Kilavi’= unwritten word. Another poet praises it as ‘Ezutha Karpu’= unwritten chastity. He means that once written it’s purity would be lost and that is why the Brahmins pass it by word of mouth. Other poets call the Vedas as Marai= secret. They understood that the Vedas are written in a secret language with enigmatic or hidden meanings. Kaduvan Ilaveyini says that God is in secret form in the Vedas (Ref. Paripatal).



Karikalan and the Vedas

Karikalan and Rig Veda: Karikal Choza was praised as a supporter of Vedic practices. When you want to see your friends off you will have to walk seven steps with them and say good bye-says Rig Veda. The Saptapadthi ceremonly in wedding is also part of it. Karikalan was praised to have walked seven steps with his guest and see them off (Ref. Line 166 in Porunar Atruppadai by Mudathama Kanniyaar)

Brahmins are always referred to as one who looks inward (Anthanan or Paarppaan), one who always think of Brahman (Brahmanan). They are called one who do six jobs – Aru Thozilor - (In Sanskrit Shad Karma sukrutha:) because they do the following: 1.Learning, 2.Teaching, 3.Performing fire ceremonies for others, 4.Performing fire ceremonies for themselves, 5. Accepting Gifts and 6.Donating gifts.


They are attributed with six virtues 1.One who seeks Brahman,2.One who takes two Births/Dwija, 3.One who worships three forms of Agni/fire, 4.One who practises four Vedas, 5. One who controls all the five senses and 6. One who does six kinds of Jobs. Anyone can notice numbers 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 are used to describe Brahmins. The play on numbers has been used by Tamil poets for two thousand years.


Brahmins acted as messengers as well during the Cankam period. The dramas of Kalidasa and Bhasa also attributed this messenger role to Brahmins.



Vedic Gods in Old Tamil Books

The following Hindu Gods and Godly persons were mentioned in Cankam literature:

Indra, Varuna, Agni, Yama, Rama, Krishna, Balarama, Shiva, Uma, Vishnu, Lakshmzi, Parasurama, Kubera, Surya, Chandra, Arundhati, Gods of City Squares, Gods of trees, Gods of Hero Stones, Goddess of the Kolli Hills, Gods in water sources etc. Reference of sacred bathing areas in Cape Comorin and Dhanuskoti is also found in Tamil books.



Tamil Queen Committed Sati
There is a reference of a Pandya queen, Bhuta Pandyan Perun Devi, committing Sati as well. There is another reference of a poet going straight to heaven after performing a particular type of Yagna (Ref. Pathitru Pathu/Tenfold Ten poems). Gowthamanar who sang about Kuttuvan Cheral was transferred to Swarga (heaven) when he completed ten yagams with the help of the king. It is mentioned in Silappathikaram as well.


List of Brahmin poets and their contribution in Cankam literature:
Agasthyar, who received Tamil language from Shiva himself.

Tolkappiyar (Thruna dumagni), who wrote grammar after Agaththiyam became obsolete.


Amur Gowthaman Sathevanar (Sahadevan)


Kadiyalur uruththiran Kannanar ( Rudra Aksha)


Kodimangalam Vathula (Gothra) Narsenthan


Sellur Kosikan (Kausika Gothra) kannanar


Madurai Teacher Nalanthuvan


Madurai Ilam kausikanar


Madurai Kanakkayanar


Nakkiran,son of Madurai Kanakkayanar


Madurai gownian (Kaundinya Gothra) daththnar


Mamulanar


Uraiyur enicheri mudamosi


Perunkundrur Perungkausikan


Kumattur kannan


Gowthaman


Valmiki


Vadamavannakkan damodaran


Vembathur kumaran



Paranar

Kapilar-Paranar, Kallada-Mamulanar are always treated as pairs. Of them Kapilar and Mamulanar are known Brahmins. But others are not classified under any caste. But my research shows Paranar is a Brahmin.
  • Chera King sent his son with him for education. Education was only conducted by Brahmins in those days.
  • He was given land (Umbarkadu as Brahmadeyam) which was also done only to Brahmins or Temples in those days.
  • Paranar is not a Tamil name. It is one of the Gothra Rishis’ names.
  • Scholars like P T Srinivasa Iyengar also consider him a Brahmin.
  • Dr R Nagaswamy, eminent historian and archaeologist of Tamil Nadu also listed Paranar as a Brahmin in his book Yavarum Kelir.
  • Paranar must be well versed in Sanskrit because he has translated and used lines from both Kalidas’s poetry and Vedic hymns.
  • The name Paranar appears as a Brahmin’s name in the Story of Vikramaditya.

If we include Paranar’s 80+ poems with Kapilar’s 230+, it forms a huge portion of the Cankam works.



Books by Brahmin poets

Tolkappiyam (Pre Cankam period)
Kurinji pattu (lines 261)
Thiru murugatruppadai (lines 317)
Pattinap palai (Lines 301)
Perumpanatrup padai (Lines 500)
Malaipadukadam (lines 583)
Nedunal vadai (lines 188)


Six out of Ten Idylls sung by Brahmins

Pathitrup pathu (all except one)
Ainkurunuru (Kapilar’s 100)
Brahmin’s contribution adds up to 10,000 lines, nearly one third of the Cankam literature. The man who went from village to village to collect all these manuscripts was Mr U V Swaminatha Iyer, a Brahmin. We would have lost most of the Tamil treasures without his hard work.


Post Cankam Brahmin Writers

Thiru Gnana Sambandhar

Sundarar


Manikka Vasagar


Andal


Periyalvar


Madura kavi alvar


Tondaradippodi alvar


Jayamkondar


Ramanujar


(Though Adi Shankara and Dandi are from the South they did wrote only in Sanskrit.)


Parimel Azkar: Though ten scholars wrote commentaries on the most famous Tamil ethics Tirukkural, Parimel Azakar’s was the best and most popular.


Nachinarkiniyar: The greatest commentator of Tamil literature. What Adi

Sankara did for Upanishads, Brahmasutra, Bagavad Gita and Vishnu Sahasranama, Nachinarkiniyar did for Tamil literature. He wrote and wrote and never stopped. Without his commentaries we wouldn’t understand the Tamil poems at all. He was a voracious reader and a prolific writer.


Senavaraiyar: He wrote commentary on Tolkappiyam

U Ve Swaminatha Iyer: He was the doyen of Tamil literature. He saved Tamil books by visiting village after village to collect the old palm leaf manuscripts. Without his collection Tamil would have lost very valuable works. The Tamil world is indebted to him forever.

Bharathiyar: This twentieth century revolutionary poet was the giant of modern Tamil. He simplified the language of the poems and made it popular. He was the first one to write on various themes like God, nature, women’s liberation, education, freedom from poverty and patriotism. He broke the shell which insulated Tamil and made it available for laymen.


Parithimar Kalaignar: He was the first one to suggest Tamil should be declared a classical language.



We don’t want class and caste divisions in the society. But if anyone says that Brahmins came from outside India via the Khyber Pass and they were alien to Tamil language and culture, these argument will be a nail in the coffin of those antagonists.
 

Visalakshi Ramani

Well-known member
Dear Sir,

Greetings!

You are a renowned scholar-but MOST of us ARE not.

We are just ordinary people with ordinary intellectual powers and limited time and energy at our disposal.

We can ingest, digest and assimilate only in small portions.

Can you please give the same info in smaller doses- so that we don't feel over powered by Titans? :fear:

I too want to know the results of your research, but I am put off by the length of the post.

I request you on behalf of all my brothers and sisters of the Forum to hand out the hard-earned- knowledge, in smaller and consumable doses for our sake.

Imagine we are all young children and feed us with knowledge as a mother does, in digestible doses!

with warm regards, :pray2:
Visalakshi Ramani.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
It is great thread. IMO I second Ms. Ramani's post.

Where did the first Brahmin (not just Tamil Brahmin) come from. The parents of the first Brahmin must have been non-brahmins. If you accept the Varna theory of Gita, there is no caste based Brahmin. I am little puzzled by the birth based caste system. Are we confusing the birth based system with Guna based system.
 
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C RAVI

Well-known member
Where did the first Brahmin (not just Tamil Brahmin) come from. The parents of the first Brahmin must have been non-brahmins. If you accept the Varna theory of Gita, there is no caste based Brahmin. I am little puzzled by the birth based caste system. Are we confusing the birth based system with Guna based system.

A very intersting contemplation!!!!

To me it appears that the caste system emerged based on Gunas and a scheme of tradition/culture/practices etc. Based on gunas and the schemes of living, the profession were choosen and practiced.

In the course of time all of us are Brahmin, Nadar, Devar, Goundar, Pillai, Vanniyar etc..etc, only by birth and following birth based / family based / place of residence based / convenience based / rational thinking based and many such basis of living styles with passed on traditional/cultural schemes.


With regard to the OP, I personally would like to give hats off to Shri Swaminathan, for sharing such a deatiled information with all of us, here.
 

Servall

New member
Mr. Swaminathan Sir:

Thank you for the informative thread.

Please keep writing so we can learn more of our rich heritage.

If you can also highlight from your research the other significant contributions of brahmins of the past, not just in literature, in other fields also, we would love to know.

Thank you
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
swami,

just because a few folks say that we came through khyber pass, does not mean, that it is correct.

brahmins have been mentioned in the sangam literature, and maybe some of them were distant ancestors to you and me :)

i think, as much important as it is to know the past, dont you think it is equally important to chart the future.

someone should have a vision for the community. how it will deal with the ever changing world, how it will reinvent itself, maintain its identity, not from a caste distinction, but for a cultural identification.

in that context, is the current trend towards intercaste marriage, a disaster for the community? or can this be turned around into an advantage, to increase our count in tamil nadu and also enable integration with the other tamil communities.

which comes to another question. do we consider ourselves tamils first or brahmins first? the crux of our vision, may depend on how a majority of us view ourselves.

let me emphasize, there are no right or wrong answers here. just discussions, as in the ultimte, each one of us will do, what is right for us, at that time and under that circumstances.

for example, someone who crows over the rooftops about the wickedness of inter caste marriage, has been known to change his mind overnight when his daughter married a muslim. this is someone fairly intimately. so, the beauty of our psyche, is that none of what we hold today as true is permanent. for this too will change.

let us carry on.. into the future.

thank you.
 

Nara

Well-known member
Indeed lot of Brahmins have contributed to the rich literary treasure of Tamil. Thanks be to the leisure from manual labor afforded to them from the toil of those kept away from intellectual pursuits by force. Be that as it may, we need to note two important points here.

1. However long the list may be, the title of the thread is completely false. This kind of empty taunting is seen for what it is by the Tamils who are not Brahmins -- empty claims of Brahmnical supremacy.

2. The credit for this list of literary contributions must go to those individuals, trying to make this into a jAti thing is very unseemly indeed.

Cheers!
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
Personally, I would like to request members to enjoy the sense of appreciation to all and every one.

I would also request members to share their appreciation of any kind, towards any humans on this Eath, belonging to any faith and profession, with all of us here. This way we can learn a lot about all and everything.
 

talwan

Well-known member
Ramanujar

(Though Adi Shankara and Dandi are from the South they did wrote only in Sanskrit.)
Dear Sir,
Ramanujar also wrote in sanskrit only.He ofcourse had Acaryans from whom He learnt about Alwars Dhivya Prapandhams.
Alwan
 

sangom

Well-known member
The contribution of brahmins to any branch of knowledge in ancient India will definitely be marvellous and unsurpassed by those of other castes, because our dharmasastras made it compulsory for the brahmin to learn the vedas and teaching of those, optional. Learning the reading and writing skills was optional for the kshatriyas and vaisyas and was prohibited for sudras.

In "puRanaanooRu" we have compositions of more than 200 or so poets and many of them belonged to NB castes; some examples are அடைநெடுங்கல்வியார், அரிசில்கிழார், அள்ளூர் நன்முல்லையார், ஆடுதுறை மாசாத்தனார், ஆலங்குடி வங்கனார், ஆலத்தூர் கிழார், ஆலியார், ஆவூர் மூலங்கிழார் and so on. When there were so many NB poets and when we haven't got much of their complete contributions (all have been lost to posterity), is it correct to list out the identifiable brahmin names and take credit?

Again, just this evening I was hearing the audios of காவடிச்சிந்து; only those composed by Annamalai Reddiar are there and a few have been written subsequently by Bharathiyar. So how can we even claim credit for this சிந்து variety? vazhinaTaiccintu is a branch of Tamil poetry which has perhaps been lost without trace and all of that must not have been by brahmin travellers.
 

Nara

Well-known member
There are some obvious errors and important misrepresentations.

...Brahmins are always referred to as one who looks inward (Anthanan or Paarppaan),
anthaNar did not always mean Brahmins.


List of Brahmin poets and their contribution in Cankam literature:

Tolkappiyar (Thruna dumagni), who wrote grammar after Agaththiyam became obsolete.

[...]

Books by Brahmin poets
Tolkappiyam (Pre Cankam period)
There is no valid evidence to claim Tolkapiyar was a Brahmin.

Post Cankam Brahmin Writers
Ramanujar
All of Ramanuja's works are in Sanskrit, not a single one is in Tamil.

Madura kavi alvar
Tondaradippodi alvar
To count these two as belonging to a Jati is an injustice to what they stood for. Mathurakavi took a Shudra for his immediate Acharya and Thondaradippodi blasted the Brahmins who think highly of their jAti.

Cheers!
 
OP
OP
L

london swaminathan

New member
Dear all
Thanks for all your comments.

In the very first paragraph I wrote that I salute every Tamil scholar irrespective of caste,creed or religion.I have emphasized two points. I am happy that none of you contradicted those two points: 1)Quantitatively Brahmins contributed more. I never said others did not contribute. But we are the highest contributors. 2)Qualitatively also we are the best. Because five poets praised Kapila, a brahmin of spot less charater-pulan azukku atra anthanaalan--So Brahmins are not aliens as the Dravidian political parties have been propagating for the past fifty years.

Thruna Dumagni story is given by the greatest commentator-not by me. If there is any contradictory information from Tamil sources, please let me know. It is a great mystery that Tolkappiyar mentions three Vedic Gods as Tamil's Gods. Why?

To my sister Vishalakshi Ramani
I see your point. I will write shorter posts. My forty five research articles are available in my blogspot swmiindology.blogspot.com and face book.

My e book in Tamil is available for those who need it via email from me at [email protected]
 

rishikesan

New member
Dear All, Mr swaminathan, is stressing the truth that, brahmins are also true tamils, and the Vidandavadam of Dravidian parties do not hold water, in their arguments. 2volumes of Books published a few years back listing about a few Hundred names of Brahmins with their contributions in various fields. The subjects are for the Society., at large. We believe in the Dictum " Sarve Janaha Sukhino Bhavanthu " I requst our Members , not to go deep into anything for analysis , because it causes ill- will for no reason. Let us restrict the same for very important matters , in the larger interest of Tamil Brahmins. I hope all agree to our Goal of helping the less fortunate Brahmin / Tamil Boys/ Girls/ Men/ women & also the ever growing number of Elderly.

A.Srinvasan ( Rishikesan)
 

biswa

New member
It is great thread. IMO I second Ms. Ramani's post.

Where did the first Brahmin (not just Tamil Brahmin) come from. The parents of the first Brahmin must have been non-brahmins. If you accept the Varna theory of Gita, there is no caste based Brahmin. I am little puzzled by the birth based caste system. Are we confusing the birth based system with Guna based system.

Good point Mr. Prasad. I have always been puzzled by this recursive equation. Suppose we ask someone: Prove that you are a Brahmin. If he says I know Gita, Upanishad, Sloka, that is not enough, as nowadays non-Brahmins may know those. If he says, I am a vegetarian, I don't lie, cheat or steal, that is not enough either as even an Australian may satisfy those criteria. That is not definitive proof.

The only defense is: I am a Brahmin because my father is/was a Brahmin. Ok, so now, prove know that your father was a real Brahmin. Well that is because my grandfather was a Brahmin. And so, on and on. So who was the first Brahmin? I think axiomatically some rishis are defined as the first brahmins (your Gothra ancestors). That puts an end to the argument. Of course as you say, their parents must have been NBs, unless they were swayamvu (ie they were their own parents).

You have hit the right bottom line: everything should be merit based rather than birth based.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Good point Mr. Prasad. I have always been puzzled by this recursive equation. Suppose we ask someone: Prove that you are a Brahmin. If he says I know Gita, Upanishad, Sloka, that is not enough, as nowadays non-Brahmins may know those. If he says, I am a vegetarian, I don't lie, cheat or steal, that is not enough either as even an Australian may satisfy those criteria. That is not definitive proof.

The only defense is: I am a Brahmin because my father is/was a Brahmin. Ok, so now, prove know that your father was a real Brahmin. Well that is because my grandfather was a Brahmin. And so, on and on. So who was the first Brahmin? I think axiomatically some rishis are defined as the first brahmins (your Gothra ancestors). That puts an end to the argument. Of course as you say, their parents must have been NBs, unless they were swayamvu (ie they were their own parents).

You have hit the right bottom line: everything should be merit based rather than birth based.

But then the basic question, why do we need the classification "brahmin". It can be a "pujari" those who know the puja vidhi and we can feed them and pay them the fee for the services rendered, or those that help devotees with archana etc and call them "purohits". Then there can be a "priest" who can explain the reson or answer philosophical questions. We can have these set up as professionals with stated qualifications and certifications.

I fully agree with you biswa, we need to change this birth based systems.
 

Nara

Well-known member
Dear All, Mr swaminathan, is stressing the truth that, brahmins are also true tamils, and the Vidandavadam of Dravidian parties do not hold water,

Dear Shri A.Srinvasan, with due respects I submit, the two opinions (i) brahmins contributed a lot to Tamil and (ii) Brahmins do not consider themselves as true Tamils, are not contradictory. The Dravidian parties take objections to the eulogizing of Sanskrit as a superior language by Brahmins in general, and that is not vidandavadam. The only Brahminical sect that venerates Tamil in equal measure to Sanskrit is Sri Vaishnavas -- Thenkalais more than Vadakalai.

The rest of the Brahmin sects put down Tamil and try to elevate Sanskrit as the fountain head of all wisdom. Putting down Tamil and at the same time making claims that but for Brahmins Tamil will not exist is what I would call vidandavadam.

BTW, let us pause for a moment and examine the motive of presenting this list, which is probably evident from the title Mr. Swaminathan chose for this thread. The intent is clear enough, namely, but for Brahmins, Tamil will not exit today -- no brahmins, no Tamil!!!

Brahmins for at least 1000 years have attempted to insert this kind of mindset into the Tamil literary landscape. Parimelazhagar urai of Thirukkural is a case in point. He tried to make Thirukkural, which probably preceded Darmashashras, into a rehash of Manu Dharmasashthra. The Dravidian scholars condemn such attempts as adding poison to pure milk, and that is not vidandavadam.

Brahmins are most probably true Tamils, I agree, but most Brahmins think they are different from rest of the Tamils, they are of Sanskrit, a superior language, superior breed. But, as for as I am concerned, they are as Tamil as anybody else, the difference is Brahmins in general don't want to admit it unless it is convenient in an argument.

We believe in the Dictum " Sarve Janaha Sukhino Bhavanthu "

Dear sir, you may believe this, and you may also believe all brahmins are like you and they also believe in this. But the reality is different. Also I would like to modify the dictum slightly into, "Sarve Janaha tulya Sukhino Bhavanthu" (Sangom sir, please correct my Sanskrit as needed). Let them all enjoy the same bliss, Brahmin or not.

I requst our Members , not to go deep into anything for analysis , because it causes ill- will for no reason.

I am sorry sir, but what are we afraid of? Deep analysis is the only way to fully understand the positives and negatives and arrive at a rational conclusion. To advocate not doing deep analysis is akin to advocating sticking our heads firmly into sand.

Let us restrict the same for very important matters , in the larger interest of Tamil Brahmins. I hope all agree to our Goal of helping the less fortunate Brahmin / Tamil Boys/ Girls/ Men/ women & also the ever growing number of Elderly.
Once again I am having to disagree, sorry!!

Let our larger interest be really large, why must it be as narrow as to include only the less fortunate "brahmin"? From what I have observed, the less fortunate Brahmins, I have a few among my relatives, are so much more well off than an average BC, MBC, or Dalit. So, I submit for your consideration sir, let us take a truly larger interest and look for ways to helping the truly forgotten and abjectly poor, irrespective of jAti.

Thank you and best regards .....
 

Yamaka

New member
My two-cents on this topic - I am not a Brahmin - am an Atheist!

I truly believe that Brahmins contributed a lot to Tamil culture and literature. Although they are only about 8% of the total population, I will estimate their contribution to be at least 20% of the total.

The OP mentions about some Dravidians not recognizing this basic fact.

My hypothesis is the Brahmin Supramacy within the souls of many Brahmins is the root cause of this feelings among Dravidians.

It is a common knowledge that Sanskrit is the language of Brahmins, and Tamil is the language of Dravidians in the South (in TN). I also believe that Tamil is as ancient as Sanskrit, Greek and Latin.

Now, for various reasons, most of the Brahmins don't know much of Sanskrit, and TBs have taken Tamil as their mother tongue and have contributed richly.

That's good, IMO.

ps. The title of this Thread "No Brahmins.. No Tamil" is patently false, reflecting some sort of bias/prejudice of the poster!
:)
 
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nannilam_balasubramanian

Well-known member
We can not strictly say like that stating TBs have taken Tamil as their mother tongue.
It is mainly because, that in some of the Schools, of non-teaching sanskrit in Schools
as one of the subjects. In yesteryears, say if I am correct upto 1960 or so, Sanskrit was
taught as second language. I studied sanskrit in the School preferring over tamil. To
be precise I am very poor in Tamil Grammar. If little importance is given to sanskrit,
all TBs will certainly learn sanskrit. Free classes are conducted in Vidhya Bhavan etc.
Those days, parents used to ask the children everyday to chant some slokas, Shabdam
etc in Sanskrit helping the children to learn. Besides in every house, at least one person
used to Adhyayanam i.e. in Veda Patasala. All that helped other children to learn
Sanskrit. Nowadays, this scope has been cut short. There are many aspects. Even
children of Sastrigals go to other profession but for compulsion in some houses.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 
My hypothesis is the Brahmin Supramacy within the souls of many Brahmins is the root cause of this feelings among Dravidians.

How does Yamaka come to this hypothesis?

Any person who harbors racial prejudice, would like to believe that he is not responsible for it, He would like to believe that he can't help it!

I suppose an atheist or rationalist is no different here!
 

Visalakshi Ramani

Well-known member
A quote by William Shakespeare

"We make guilty of our disasters the sun,
the moon and the stars; :flame:
as if we were villains by necessity,
fools by heavenly compulsion." :spy:
 

Yamaka

New member
கால பைரவன்;107823 said:
How does Yamaka come to this hypothesis?

Any person who harbors racial prejudice, would like to believe that he is not responsible for it, He would like to believe that he can't help it!

I suppose an atheist or rationalist is no different here!

1. I am a Dravidian by the color of my skin (I am a brown, not a black, not a fair or light colored).

2. As an Atheist, non-Brahmin, I have given my personal view of the contribution of Brahmins to Tamil literature.

3. From the Title of the Thread, I see some SUPREMACY in the OP, which is exactly what some Dravidians believe in some of the Brahmins.

My simple hypothesis is this SUPREMACY per se is the root cause of the opinions of some Dravidians that they have not contributed to Tamil.

Not only this. This Brahmin SUPREMACY is the root cause of Brahmin bashing/hatred in many place in Tamil Nadu, as I have opined before,

Where's the problem?
 
Nara said:
Brahmins for at least 1000 years have attempted to insert this kind of mindset into the Tamil literary landscape. Parimelazhagar urai of Thirukkural is a case in point. He tried to make Thirukkural, which probably preceded Darmashashras, into a rehash of Manu Dharmasashthra. The Dravidian scholars condemn such attempts as adding poison to pure milk, and that is not vidandavadam.

Thirukkural does have several verses upholding caste system that was prevalent in TN at that time.

The motive of "upper" caste dravidian scholars is to blame brahmins and brahmins alone for the caste system. Only then, they 1) can justify racial discrimination against TN brahmins 2) can continue to subjugate "lower' castes while pointing fingers at brahmins.

Hence, it is in the interest of these dravidian scholars to whitewash all references to caste/varna system in tamil literature!

Such arguments of dravidian scholars are not vidandavadam. They should be taken seriously as they try to distort history!
 

Yamaka

New member
We can not strictly say like that stating TBs have taken Tamil as their mother tongue.
It is mainly because, that in some of the Schools, of non-teaching sanskrit in Schools
as one of the subjects. In yesteryears, say if I am correct upto 1960 or so, Sanskrit was
taught as second language. I studied sanskrit in the School preferring over tamil. To
be precise I am very poor in Tamil Grammar. If little importance is given to sanskrit,
all TBs will certainly learn sanskrit. Free classes are conducted in Vidhya Bhavan etc.
Those days, parents used to ask the children everyday to chant some slokas, Shabdam
etc in Sanskrit helping the children to learn. Besides in every house, at least one person
used to Adhyayanam i.e. in Veda Patasala. All that helped other children to learn
Sanskrit. Nowadays, this scope has been cut short. There are many aspects. Even
children of Sastrigals go to other profession but for compulsion in some houses.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

I went to a Brahmin college - Madura College - in Madurai 1967. There Sanskrit was offered to all students.

Alas.. to my surprise, most of the Brahmin boys took Tamil as the Second Language; hardly 5% took to Sanskrit.

When I asked my friends, they replied. "Oh.. we are not going to be temple priests.. we are going for law, medicine or engineering... who needs Sanskrit there?"

:)
 
This Brahmin SUPREMACY is the root cause of Brahmin bashing/hatred in many place in Tamil Nadu, as I have opined before,

Where's the problem?

The problem is in simply transferring the guilt and blame on the person who is being bashed from the person who hates and bashes!

If the dravidians claim that they hate brahmins because of the supposed supremacist feelings of brahmins, then they should be considered as the biggest hypocrites! For they themselves harbor supremacist feelings and thats why one sees hundreds of caste divisions among them.
 
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