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Neither Dravida nor Arya denote a race.

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S

Saab

Guest
Dear fellow Tamil Brahmins,

* Neither Dravida nor Arya denote any race.

* Dravida is a Sanskrit word meaning south indicating the the southern peninsula of india.

* Arya is a Sanskrit word meaning noble.

* Injecting racism on the basis of colour among the people of Bharath was started by the British. The word 'Dravida' that indicated a territory became indicative of people of 'dark' skin. It was Robert Caldwell who made this switch that brought the vilest consequence in his book 'A Comparative Grammar of the Dravidian or South Indian Family of Languages (1856)'. Stemming from that it was the british and german Indologists who gave a new theory about a fair skinned aryan race invading India and vanquishing dark skinned race called Dravidians.

* Modern genetics has proved that there is no genetic difference in the markers between to so called 'Aryans' and 'Dravidians' as can be found between Nordic and Slavic races. Minor differences and similiarities exist among Brahmins, Naidus, Chettiars, Gounders, Mudaliars etc... but not a valid difference to differentiate the 'races' of Aryans and Dravidians.

* India and especially S.India is very rich in literature. Of the Dravidian languages, Tamil has the greatest geographical extension and the richest and most ancient literature, which is paralleled in India only by that of Sanskrit. The Tamil Literature widely refers and illustrates History. In these literature THERE IS NOT A SINGLE MENTION of aryan-dravidian divide or invasion or any kind of struggle. Our Vedas and Puranas also do not mention of any invasion of any people from beyond Bharatham to constitute the so called Aryans as was claimed by the Aryan Invasion Theory.

* The Aryan Invasion Theory became the tool for divide and rule by the British. That was taken advantage of by people who wanted to divide India on the basis of language, territory, color and caste of the people. The secularist rulers of India who are apologists and successors to the British colonialists never fought the the fissiparous tendencies but perpetuated the myth of racism of Aryans and Dravidians and embarked on dividing the country on the basis of language and territory and the latest demand is that of Telengana. It all started with the British dividing Bengal in the beginning of the 20th century and and patriots under the Great Bala Gangadhar Tilak opposed it. He was arrested and sent to Andaman by the British where he died. Even though he was a Maharashtrian, it was Bengalis who mourned his death by performing the obsequeis in every home in Bengal! Such was the love for patriotism those days. The secularists in their zest and zeal to divide the country have killed this spirit.

* Tamil Brahmins are the victims of this conspiracy of divisive politics of the secularists of India. Every Tamil Brahmin should learn this fact and educate their fellow Tamilians irrespective of the castes and creed. There is no vimochanam to this country otherwise.

Saab
 

KRS

Well-known member
Swamy Vivekananda Ji has stated that there are no Aryans or Dravidians but only Indians. I believe him.

But I do not understand these words:

"The secularist rulers of India who are apologists and successors to the British colonialists never fought the the fissiparous tendencies but perpetuated the myth of racism of Aryans and Dravidians and embarked on dividing the country on the basis of language and territory and the latest demand is that of Telengana."

Who are these secularists? Nehru did not want the states to be divided among linguistic lines. He only gave in reluctantly. So, who demanded such a division? "Secularists?" If so, let us name names.

Telengana seperation grew out of the same mold as Tamil nation as well as other seperatist movements. How is 'secularism' the cause of such divisions?

One should back up one's statements if one is ready to accuse a whole principle as a cause for such seperate states based on language!

Pranams,
KRS
 

Kamakshi

Member
Sri KRS,

Nehru did not want the states to be divided among linguistic lines. He only gave in reluctantly. So, who demanded such a division?
Why don't you tell us who these people who are demanding the division of the country on parochial basis? Who encourages them? What law enables them to practice this atrocity?

"Madhrasis" were hounded by Sivasena, Brahmins by the DK and the DMK and now Raj Thakrey hounds north Indians. There are many more like this.
Do Californians say 'No' to Texans or New Yorkers? Can a political party agitate in real secular countries and get away with it without being banned and punished? The IRA in the UK and Basque separatists in Spain were banned in the respective countries. Nehru and his system of governance could have done this instead of being 'reluctant'.

Nehru and his ilks represent this 'unique' and undefined secularism of India that has given rise to the fissiparous tendencies.

In Tamilnadu the LTTE outfits that killed a Prime Minister of this country is being supported and encouraged even though on paper such things are illegal. Since I am not allowed to name names I can say that the ruling party in Tamilnadu is courted by the President of the Congress Party who is a catholic and a foreign born woman. The world knows that the LTTE assasinated her husband who was the prime minister of this country. As a Hindu woman I am asking you: Which Hindu woman would court the support of the killers of her husband even if heaven be the reward? Which Hindu woman will go and shake hands with the murderer who killed her father?

We are being told that this is a humane act and is glorified by the vested secular press. Do we need this kind of culture?

When will this apism end?

This is the Indian secularism that is unethical and unHindu that we oppose. This country can well do away with it and follow practices that are ethical and humane that were the dhaarmic followed by our ancesstors.

I agree with the contention that the Indian secularists court the minority vote bank, divide the Hindus on caste basis and perpetuate the division, systematically loot Hindu temples in the name of administration, unnecessarily interfere in their religious practices and constantly question and put them down on whimsical concepts of their 'secular' principles while letting the muslims practice polygamy and the Christians to denigrate Hinduism and convert the Hindus. We are sick and tired of this secularism. Down with it!
 

KRS

Well-known member
Sowbhagyavathi Kamakshi Ji,

My response is in blue, below.

Sri KRS,

Why don't you tell us who these people who are demanding the division of the country on parochial basis? Who encourages them? What law enables them to practice this atrocity?

Kamakshi Ji, I asked first! The people who encourage these divisions are the same people who wanted the division of the country on parochial basis from the begining, who are encouraged by local politicians with vested interests. No connection to Secularism here.

"Madhrasis" were hounded by Sivasena, Brahmins by the DK and the DMK and now Raj Thakrey hounds north Indians. There are many more like this.
Do Californians say 'No' to Texans or New Yorkers? Can a political party agitate in real secular countries and get away with it without being banned and punished? The IRA in the UK and Basque separatists in Spain were banned in the respective countries. Nehru and his system of governance could have done this instead of being 'reluctant'.

Nehru's administration has been long gone. There have been other administrations in the interim. If such a law of banishment exists why was it not implemented? If it does not exist, why has it not been formulated? While Congress solely and in coalition has governed the most of these years, there were other governments from the opposition which got the chance to govern. So to put all these parochialisms under a long bygone administration is not logical.

Nehru and his ilks represent this 'unique' and undefined secularism of India that has given rise to the fissiparous tendencies.

Okay, but please tell me what 'unique' and 'undefined' secularism of Nehru and his ilk has given rise to the 'fissiparous' tendencies? Do you know that Sri Vallabhai Patel was the Chairman of the Minorities Sub-Committee of the Constituent Assembly. The liberal provisions which our Constitution contains for the protection of linguistic and cultural rights of the minorities are his ideas. He was the one who selected Dr. Ambedkar to head up the drawing of the Constitution.

In Tamilnadu the LTTE outfits that killed a Prime Minister of this country is being supported and encouraged even though on paper such things are illegal. Since I am not allowed to name names I can say that the ruling party in Tamilnadu is courted by the President of the Congress Party who is a catholic and a foreign born woman. The world knows that the LTTE assasinated her husband who was the prime minister of this country. As a Hindu woman I am asking you: Which Hindu woman would court the support of the killers of her husband even if heaven be the reward? Which Hindu woman will go and shake hands with the murderer who killed her father?

Kamakshi Ji, meeting with one's husband's or one's father's killer are personal matters. Why should we get riled up about this? They are entitled to believe whatever they believe, as long as that does not affect what the State does. How does such a meeting affect the State justice and functioning? Regarding LTTE activities in TN, I don't understand the politics of it. But, again, whoever gives comfort to terrorists must be tried.

We are being told that this is a humane act and is glorified by the vested secular press. Do we need this kind of culture?

If we do not want this 'culture' it is easy enough to throw the rascals out of office. How come, a large portion of the majority community still keep on voting to power such 'alien cultured' parties?

When will this apism end?

When the majority unites and find a common middle ground. It will not come on the basis of extreme political thought.

This is the Indian secularism that is unethical and unHindu that we oppose. This country can well do away with it and follow practices that are ethical and humane that were the dhaarmic followed by our ancesstors.

Okay, fine. But India is a democracy. A large portion of Hindus are moderate and they do not want to go back to yesterday's national life. What was 'dharmic' yesterday is not seen as dharmic today (Constitution has done away with Varnas for example). So, unless a modern dharmic standard is agreed by all, I do not personally think that anything will change.

I agree with the contention that the Indian secularists court the minority vote bank, divide the Hindus on caste basis and perpetuate the division, systematically loot Hindu temples in the name of administration, unnecessarily interfere in their religious practices and constantly question and put them down on whimsical concepts of their 'secular' principles while letting the muslims practice polygamy and the Christians to denigrate Hinduism and convert the Hindus. We are sick and tired of this secularism. Down with it!

Again, there are a lot of misstatements here. Secularism is firmly against a government to interfere in religious matters of any religion. Anything that violates this is not secularism.

There is a voluntary secular personal civic code for all communities to subscribe to. Do you know that only a fraction of the Hindu community has embraced it, instead opting for Hindu personal law? Same for Muslims. So, when that code is accepted universally by all sections of the society, then we will see true secularism.

Again, no one can foribly convert anyone in to any other religion in India. There is a criminal law against such an activity. If they can not find a soul to 'harvest' they will close up shop and leave.

Pranams,
KRS
 
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Saab

Guest
The virulent anti-Brahmin movement in Tamilnadu was set off by E.V.R.

A gentleman by name M.Venkatesh wrote a a remarkable book in Tamil on Periyar titled ‘E.V.Ramaswamy Naickerin Marupakkam’.

Here are some excerpts:

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Saab

Guest
Dear Happyhindu,

There is truth in what we focus yet what we focus is not the whole truth. EVR's philosophy of hatred is alive and well in so many forms. There are atleast two reasons for the same.

One is that there is scope for advancing this because there exist a lot of bigotry by not observing Dharma. Dharma is easily flouted by one and all.

Secondly they have encouragement from the State and by the power that be who are adharmic (in my parlance 'secularism and secularists'). If I have to borrow a Christian depiction, they are 'satanic' by their enticing, divide and rule, hoodwinking and plain spread of misinformation.

So if you decide NOT to oppose EVRism because you feel nobody is interested (and people like me are making a mountain out of a molehill) that is your choice.

If you on the contrary think that this menace have to be squarely faced and the root cause is to be eliminated for the good of the posterity then you are welcome to join me.

Regards,
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
Dear Saab,

I never said I am NOT opposed to EVRism. Nobody i know seems to agree with it. Everyone i know has gone abt opposing EVRism in their own ways.

But I have met many tamilians who are staunch suporters of EVR. Having spoken to them, i feel this issue is best addressed as a social issue not as a political one. EVR seems to have been the 'break point' for them since they already had the undercurrents that their culture was copied and stolen by invaders. This sentiment was likely not shared by other dravidian linguistic groups and EVR did not find support from them.
 
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Saab

Guest
Dear Happyhindu,

You are part of us and so please do not think we would ever think of you as different. You are our brother! In a family all brothers are not same because each have their own unique mind yet in times of need the bond among them will assert. That will be the case with you!

Having said that, let me tell you that in varna system no one is superior or inferior. Because of the unique nature of the Brahmins with their active intellect they do not band together easily. Most of them assert their soverignty! This is a disadvantage and knowing this the varna system exhorts other varnas to take care of the Brahmins. People did take care of the Brahmins and held them in high esteem. Take all the ancient Tamil literatures and everyone of them pay homage to Brahmins. When I chant Thevaaram I sometimes feel it was written in praise of Brahmins! Even recently that is about 600 years ago Arunagirinaathar in his famous Thiruppugazh speaks very high of the Brahmins. He says the Brahmins educate the entire community of the greatness of Siva for example "ஓமத்தீ வழுவார் கூர் சிவ லோகத்தே தரு மங்கை பாலா". (ஓமத்தீ வழுவார் refers to the Brahmins who raise the Homaagni with their oblations). All these 'internal evidence' show that people lived amiably among themselves and held the Brahmins in high esteem. There had never been a war of attrition among the Hindus as could be found in other religions. There has never been a movement or campaign against the Brahmins until the beneficieries of the British colonial oppressors inherited the throne. Their constitution enables special privileges to the Muslims and Christians and offer division and destruction to the Hindus.

The caste system was introduced by the British and is followed and furthered by the secular government even though their apologists might claim otherwise. The caste system is atleast 250 years old which by itself is old and yet recent past. So this blurs the divide between the varna system followed before and the caste system that is followed now. The fact that the name Brahmin is the same in caste as in varna makes it difficult to differentiate especially knowing that the Brahmins have the continuity while others have a disconnect and dissipation. (By the way the varna system is not dead. It is weak and feeble. Just as good heath and bad health follow each other, the strength and weakness are cyclical).

Do you know that there is no such thing as untouchable in the varna system? The earliest introduction is traced to the Buddhists as they are avaidic (non-vedic). The water's purity was held so sacred by the Hindus that the ancient Brahmins always consecrated the water before they drank. "Om aapaha, jyothi rasaha amritham Brahma" where aapaha denotes water. Jyothi rasaha means that the water is the essence of fire. Yes, it is true that water comes from fire! The rest needs no explanation.

The water is given to the Devas in the 'argyam'. The water is given to the forefathers as an oblation for their return. In this world all the waters are held sacred as 'theertha' by all Hindus and their offshoots such as Sikhs, Jains and Buddists. There is vedic prohibition on Brahmins from drinking unconsecrated water. This was not a problem in those old days when the Brahmins lived secluded. Today the two tumbler system is followed not by the Brahmins but by non-Brahmins.

The Brahmins did not compete with other varnas in any sphere until the British arrived on the scene and broke the varnasrama dharma. This broken dharma is causing the sense of apprehension among the non-Brahmins who are now finding that the Brahmins are invading into their domain. That is where the mistrust (iyarai namba vendaam!) comes from. When Varnasrama Dharma regains its vitality which it truly will (of course to the great consternation of the secularists!)and this sense of alienation among Hindus will vanish.

I wud love to support you provided am told ways in which you propose to address these situations. If the idea is to sponsor a social NGO to address these issues and gather support from the public first by clearing misconceptions, am all for it. But if the idea is to turn this into another political issue straightway, am not for it.
The Brahmins by their nature are inclined in better pursuit than artha (wealth). When the situation is conducive such as freedom from persecution and oppression and guaranteed support and protection then the situation of conflict among Hindus will cease. That situation is nothing but the restoration of Dharma which of course can come only by the defeat of the secularist hoards who are the curse of Bharat. Short of that the conflict will keep raising in newer forms just as in Uthapuram where the conflict is between two non-Brahmin communities. Now that the Brahmins have ceased to tell what is Dharma to them the secularists and Christians and Muslims are trying to fill the gap that raises more conflict.
 

KRS

Well-known member
Every culture in the world that does not keep up with the advancement of civilization is doomed to extinction. We need to look at what it IS rather than what it WAS.

We can have endless debates about who caused the Varna Dharma to disintegrate. We can point fingers at the Moguls, English, Christians, Muslims and the 'Secularists' for it to have degenerated to the present Jathi system.

But, unfortunately, Varna was a SOCIAL concept that fit in to the years of yesterday's way of life. The four varnas neatly fit in to a society ruled by Kings, kept prosperous by the merchants, served by the manual labors of the least intellectually gifted and of course guided by an intellectual class which neither wanted power nor wealth.

But what do we have today? As Swamy Vivekananda Ji lamented, 'Where are the Kshatriyas?'

Irrespective of who was responsible, why is there a fifth Varna?

More importantly, why there is no broad support for the Brahmins from the other three varnas today?

Just assigning blame on others for this problem that our religion and society has to bear is not correct. Why is there a large population of Hindus today who support the 'Secularists?'

It is all because, our religion has a section of folks who can not and would not accept the fact that a 'way of life' must adapt to changing conditions. After all, a religion is for the benefit of the people who adhere. Not the other way around. If a new dharma that is fitting to address the modern day life, where people of all Jathis and religions work side by side, not found, then our religion will lose its relevance in the modern world.

This is unfortunately the reality.

Pranams,
KRS
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Elders seem to approach solutions by provoking others into thinking and look more like (??) putting forward the solution of going for changes / reviving things from within their brahmanical traditions to keep up with the changing times (??). Their experience in having understood life from diff dimensions reflects in their words.

Youngsters too seem to have understood several roads to this multidimensional reality we live in but prefer to hold on to some roads only, as it appears to them as the best paths.

No wrongs here..which of the two rights will prevail only time will tell.....
 
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pannvalan

Well-known member
1. I agree with 'Saab' that the words 'Dravida' and 'Arya' never meant to divide people
nor they represented any races.
2. The word 'Dravida' represented the land south of 'Vindhyas' or 'Narmada' and the
people living there.
3. Thirugnanasambandhar was referred to as 'Dravida Sisu' and 'Nalaayira Divya
Prabandham' was called 'Dravida Vedham'.
4. Even ancient and reputed dictionaries in Tamil tell that the word 'arya' stands for
anything virtuous, noble or exemplary. Thus, the word arya was more an adjective
to describe persons or the subjects under review.
5. That the EVR's outburst against Tamil language and its people are well known. Apart
from the book referred herein, his writings in 'Viduthalai', 'Kudiyarasu' etc. are part of
history now and cannot be erased or just kept aside. (They are preserved even
today at the house in Erode, where he lived).
6. Please also read 'Viduthalai Poril Thamizhagam' (Three Volumes), written by
M. P. Sivagnanam (Ma. Po. Si.) regarding the events of 1940s and 1950s.
7. I wish to supplement what EVR said about the increase in price of cloth/fabric.

One of my friends who was not a brahmin, said in 1960s, that the prices of egg,
mutton and chicken were soaring only because of the reason that brahmins started
eating all these.

I just countered him 'it is as wrong as saying the prices of rice, milk and oil
increased only from the time that the downtroddens who were eating only kambu
and kelvaragu switched over to eating rice etc.'

The point I wish to make is with the advancement of civilisation and the
improvement in one's standards of living, the choices and preferences for one are
very wide and they cannot be dictated nor decided by others.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
happy,

i am very happy to read your last posting. :)

only one error. i am not an elder. i may be 57+ years old, but realize that i am still a student tending to foolishness many a times. after all, there is no fool like an old fool, isn't there? :)

otherwise, i agree with you re the youth. they face different challenges from that of their parents, whether be it in tamil nadu or outside of it. each is an individual situation, and my personal attitude towards life is, 'do what works for you'.

thank you sir!
 
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Saab

Guest
Dear HH,

What can I say, everyone is entitled to his/her own view and to advocate the same. Some are very passionate about it and some are interested in its being reasonable. It boils down to one and only thing. If you like it you 'buy' it!

What happens after you buy it? It is like a marriage. Some people enjoy the company of their spouses all thru their lives. For some the positives of the union wanes away and the negatives surface. Some people endure the burden. Some break it up.

If you think we are peddling ideas, you may not be far off the mark!

All that are seen reasonable are unreal. It does not mean that I am advocating things that are unreasonable are only real. For all those who advocate one's own experience, what I am saying is, that only our desire and it passion are real!!

We all argue on what we like to argue. The anger appears when the passion is hurt.


காமக்ரோத உலோப பூத விகாரத்தே அழிகின்ற மாயா
காயத்தே பசு பாசத்தே சிலர் காமுற்றேகுதல் என்கொலோதான்!

How many would share this அங்கலாய்ப்பு of Arunagirinaathar?
 
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Ramaa

Guest
Dear happyhindu,

All Hindus have two choices.

One is to know Dharma and resolve to adhere to it whether someone else does it or not. This enables one to cross the ocean of samsaara.

The other is to say that everyone is flouting Dharma and getting away with it. The say: "Why not me?"

What makes us opt for a choice is the 'kaama' that I have talked about in another thread.

I am sure Arunargiri is talking of the same thing. Thank you Saabji for quoting it.

We are all still Hindus only even in remote case where we might be tempted to deny being a Hindu!

What we do right brings us punya. Our wantonness brings us paapa.

We have Gurus (they are still there for those who seek) who guide us. Blessed are those who seek them and cross the ocean of samsaara. Yet there are asuras who denigrate and evaluate the Gurus and hold one against another and so on. They will for ever be returning to this miserable world to wage their wars on Dharma. (The 'angalaaippu' is that these asuras find delight in their wantonness in this world of misery!)

To them is the verse of Arunagiri applies.
 
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Kamakshi

Member
Sorry I have time constraints to visit the forum as often. We Hindu women have important dhaarmic duties to perform!

I suppose my last post needs some clarification.

I was pointing out that the State as it exists in India has a brand name 'secularist' that was founded by the Congress Party as the beneficiary of the succession to the British colonialists. This party held sway and formulated the constitution that depicts the character of the state. This state aids and abets the fissiparous tendencies by its character. The fact that some hodge-podge coalitions that cropped up in the last few years also tend to suggest to the character of the state to allow the fissiparous tendencies and murderous politicians to seize the 'throne' in coalition to divide and rob the people. The state and its constitution and their political offsprings are corrupt, period!

The person who happens to be the 'de facto' PM and her family cannot be considered doing some personal choice when she and her family hobknobs with the murderers of her husband who was also the Prime Minster of the country. I am saying that such demonic charater of hobnobbing with the murderers of one's husband and one's father are not of our culture. No Hindu woman worth her salt would ever do that. Perhaps persons who have forsaken our culture might find it commendable!

Is it just as easy to throw out the demonic forces who have captured our land and the government by vile and force because we have democracy? The Muslim hoards of murderers of Hindus and the destroyers and plunderers of our temples in thousands ruled for over 700 years though the Hindu kings rose again and again and waged wars against them. The English colonialists who came in with their divide and rule trick drained our coutry's wealth for over 250 years. Their secularist successors have compromised the national integrity to inimical forces inside and outside the country. All we can do is to gather all the Hindus and throw these rascals out. It takes time in organization and action but I do believe it is taking place. It is truly a thousand year war! People who think we can throw the hoards of enemies out in election and since we didn't do so in the election should shut up and put up are naive and stupid because they are crowing at Hindus. Shame on them.

It is normal though shameful for people to advocate surrender to the enemy in the middle of the battle. Even Arjuna did it! We hold our Holy Book of Bhagavat Geetha against these detractors.

Jai Hind!
 

malgova.mango

Active member
Dear Folks!

Advancement of Civilization? do you call these...

1) Consuming the earth's resources at the cost of irrevocable ecological disaster.

2) Polluting the earth with all the wastes which could not be effectively recylced of the consumption.

3) Bringing disaster to the native tribal cultures - I saw a documentry where the Indonesian government tries to educate the tribal children, they are wonderfuly living in the forest adapting to the nature, but are forced to change the culture to suit the so-called civilized world- Very pathetic.
Please extend this to the peoples of Andaman - Nicobar Islands and tribals of india and africa.

4) Where even the Maternal instincts takes second place adapting to the force of market culture .

5)Where the pursuit is restricted to "Artha" and "Kama" only.

6)Where the word "Yagam" has no relevance


Please reflect on this metaphor - "The churning of the ocean by "Asuric " forces on one hand and "Sattvic" forces .

Please read the list of "DEVASURA SAMPATHU" as told in the 16th Chapter of Srimad Bhagavat Geeta.

If properly treated , this body is the abode of all the good things AND if not it is the chain that will bond us in the deep ocean of Samsara and is the cause of all Sukha dhukkha.

My preceptions...

All these so-called advancement are not entirely new things, There are various types of "Vimana" that are talked about. In Ramayana, the picture of Lanka is depicted as landscape with buildings so tall that clouds will hit them.

From various scriptures, it is hinted of the technological advancement of the days of yore. It is not that our sages didn't envisage the current scientific and technological advancement, that they didn't talk about . Rather, they might have thought all these related to external developments will only distract human kind. It is never going to give him complete ful-fillment.

Just like YO-YO he may jump with some new items and after a while he will be addicted to that and after that he will waste his time to keep for the rest of life. (like a car, or handphone) . Finally it comes to a point where, he has no time to reflect and meditate or even to think. Nowadays there is no time left for many to enjoy a good carnatic music, or to read a good book (just forget about Sandhayavandanams and other rituals)

No time for mothers to nurse the kid, and for the sons/daughters to look-after their age-old parents. The poor humans have to fight the inflation which exhaust them completely.

Why I'm posting all these ? I'm trying to find the meaning for the word "Advancement of Civilization" - Where or what is Advancement here?

Regards
 
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kunjuppu

Well-known member
malgova,

would it help, if we substitute 'advancement' with 'march'. because, advancement may have built in connotations of progress and such good stuff?

march of civilization? this could be ok.

after all, we are moving at a breakneck speed in some direction, not sure which, but which brings definitely benefits and ease of life, expansion of our knowledge, along with all the dreadful stuff that you mentioned.

don't know where it will end. or how. or when.
 
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Ramaa

Guest
Kunjuppu,

Just out of curiousity, if I ask you to say what you might find critical of these 'advancements', 'civilizations', 'march' etc. would you have anything to say?
 

pannvalan

Well-known member
1. I agree with most of the observations made by Kamakshi. A person in public life,
that too occupying very high position nationally and globally can not have personal
choices especially when substantial questions of public order, peace and justice are
involved, can she?
2. Even after 60 years of independence, we Indians are yet to come to terms with
what a true democracy is.
3. The dynastic rule and the primogeniture concept seem to be still catchy to us.
4. The so called meeting at Vellore jail was arranged by a religious cult figure, it is
learnt.
5. The wheels of justice grind slowly against influential figures or persons involved in
high flying crimes.

Think why?
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
ramaa,

i am not much of a critique, mainly i do not know much. also, i have had so many beliefs passionately held in my life, and felt right to discard them, as time progressed.

today, i live in a grey area. i am unable to consider anything as right or wrong completely - except perhaps our civilization's treatment of dalits.

all other issues, there are many viewpoints, many valid viewpoints, and it only becomes a matter of one's choice. this choice of mine, in many instance, is driven by my own experiences.

i consider myself fairly open to hearing out things and i may be deluding myself here too.

i imagine myself to expressing myself without being hurtful, but i have erred on the last, and will probably do so in the future, because we are humans, and when we interact with someone, there is always the unknown triggers of which we are unaware.

i have more doubts than answers. so most of my posts are bland observations, bland enough to maybe sound critical, but never intended that way.

so in answer to your query - no i cannot be critical of civilizations. they are. they happen to be. they rise. they fall. they decline. that is the historical process. all i see myself doing is to view them within my limited framework, assess where our current civilization in its all encompassing form is, and how to manage my affairs within it, harmoniously and without undue stress to myself or my family.

whatever works for one, need not necessarily work for another. but stress is a big killer, and should be avoided at all costs.

advancement and march are two terms to gauge the passing of the civilization, i think. they are terms to denote a point in time or a timespan.

ramaa, i hope this explains somewhat your curiosity. i look forward to your response.

thank you sir.
 

malgova.mango

Active member
Dear Sri Kunjuppu!

I won't call it as March, it's more like "blind leading another blind" - what will happen? either they trample on others or they bump and get hurt. This is what is happening.

When it will end? if we stop following a blind it will stop.

The politics and policies are mighty structural issues, which needs enlightened guidance. - Do you agree with this?



Regards




malgova,

would it help, if we substitute 'advancement' with 'march'. because, advancement may have built in connotations of progress and such good stuff?

march of civilization? this could be ok.

after all, we are moving at a breakneck speed in some direction, not sure which, but which brings definitely benefits and ease of life, expansion of our knowledge, along with all the dreadful stuff that you mentioned.

don't know where it will end. or how. or when.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
malgova,

the term march has no connotation behind it - religious, of value, of sense of direction, anything. i used it as a neutral term because march sounded better than progress, which somehow, to me meant, something positive.

maybe change would be a better word? inevitable change?

i think all of us are pushed in some unknown direction. i do not as a person feel i have control. all i can realize is that changes are constantly happening, and with even more frequency. if i am aware of the changes, keep up with its nature, i feel i am at less in conflict with it.

conflict causes tension. tension kills. i would like to avoid tension. so i have to manage my conflicts accordingly. the key word, i think to all aspects of life, is the word, manage.

re enlightened divine guidance. i sure hope so. in fact, there never seem to be a dearth of claims of prophets claiming divine guidance. and they all appear to be at loggerheads with each other, as to the direction of the divine path.

to me, my divine guidance, comes from reciting hanuman praises, a stanza of 4 lines, several times a day, at random, and visiting the local temple when there is no crowd, so that i can feel the ambience and a sense of peace. so far, i have felt contended and fulfilled with this. also i light the lamp daily at sandhi. that is the sum of my understanding of divine guidance.
 

Kamakshi

Member
Thank you Pannvalan. Here is a news item for your info.

www.organiser.org ...

...Meanwhile, despite a friendly media agreeing to clamp down on the controversy over Smt Priyanka Vadra’s meeting with Nalini Murugan, convicted in the assassination of former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi, there is need for deeper investigation into the facts of the visit. Following an RTI filed by lawyer D. Raj Kumar, two things happened. First, Smt. Vadra admitted that the March 19, 2008 meeting took place, through a statement read out by a Congress spokesman, and the Vellore Jail Superintendent denied such a meeting had taken place!

This has various possible implications, and the nation has a right to know what did transpire. As previously argued, the meeting could not have taken place without the explicit consent and logistical backing of the Central and State Governments. Smt Vadra and Nalini’s lawyer S. Doraisamy have admitted that the meeting did take place.

This leaves us with the questions of the venue where it occurred , and the motive. The Superintendent of Special Prison for Women, B. Rajasoundari, has filed a written reply that nobody met Nalini Murugan on March 14 and March 19. The veracity of this claim can easily be checked with other prison inmates, guards, and the interrogation of Smt Vadra, her state-provided security, and Nalini. If the meeting took place in the jail, the Superintendent must be asked to explain why it was not recorded, and why Smt. Vadra was not made to sign the visitor’s register. Prison security is never lax unless it is “arranged” to be so. If smt Vadra’s visit was not recorded, it could only have been at the behest of the Centre or State Government, and the authorities concerned should speak up, rather than leave the officer to take the rap. This raises questions about the motives of the meeting.

The second possibility is that the meeting took place somewhere else, possibly the famous ‘golden temple’ Smt. Vadra admitted visiting that day. If so, we need to know if Nalini’s exit from the Vellore Jail was recorded by the authorities; who authorised her departure; who handled her security outside the jail in view of a known threat to her life; and what were the motives behind such grand liberties with the legal system. Since the government does not exist to indulge in the childish pranks of Smt Vadra, there has to be a political answer to these questions. The search for personal closure is a nice story, but there is no reason why it could not wait a few years till Nalini became a free person. She could then have been invited to 10 Janpath and given employment under NREGA! ...
 

malgova.mango

Active member
Sri Kunjuppu!

My replies in blue....


malgova,


the term march has no connotation behind it - religious, of value, of sense of direction, anything. i used it as a neutral term because march sounded better than progress, which somehow, to me meant, something positive.



maybe change would be a better word? inevitable change?

"Change is inevitable, but continuity is important" - so says an idiom. It is our responsiblility to maintain the continiuity - Do you agree?

i think all of us are pushed in some unknown direction. i do not as a person feel i have control. all i can realize is that changes are constantly happening, and with even more frequency. if i am aware of the changes, keep up with its nature, i feel i am at less in conflict with it.

Not that handi-capped we are, we still can exercise self-discpline and be religious to the extent possible. Ofcoure external factors do chain us to an extent, but still "manam irunthal margam undu".

conflict causes tension. tension kills. i would like to avoid tension. so i have to manage my conflicts accordingly. the key word, i think to all aspects of life, is the word, manage.

Good, me too have a Kind of attittude like you.

re enlightened divine guidance. i sure hope so.

Yes ?? right


in fact, there never seem to be a dearth of claims of prophets claiming divine guidance. and they all appear to be at loggerheads with each other, as to the direction of the divine path.

You seem to refer neo religions and our siddha purushas . We have no prophets in our native culture.

to me, my divine guidance, comes from reciting hanuman praises, a stanza of 4 lines, several times a day, at random, and visiting the local temple when there is no crowd, so that i can feel the ambience and a sense of peace. so far, i have felt contended and fulfilled with this. also i light the lamp daily at sandhi. that is the sum of my understanding of divine guidance.

Good, you have devotion to Lord Hanuman - famous for his "Pandithyam in our own Veda-Shastras"
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
thank you malgova.

i am not sure if there was any imbedded query in your reply. but i feel compelled to extrapolate my outlook on look, to put things in perspective with respect to your feedback. i hope you don't mind.

re changes. they are inevitable and happening at a faster rate. they impact everyone of us. i feel that one should recognize and embrace the change, evaluate it, and adapt or discard to suit myself. i call this managing the change. the key word is manage, and i cannot manage it, unless i keep an open mind to what is happening around me.

every change is connected in some way or the other. let me give you a simple example. when i grew up, we did not have refrigerators. the concept was unknown. i had only one rich relation who had one and it was a source of wonderment. also, we had practised the concept of 'vethu'. the food that was not consumed the day it was cooked, was discarded or given away. some years later, we got a fridge at home. initially it was meant for cold water, pickles and cold thayir. then gradually, the concept of saving left overs became a habit. now it is a norm, to cook a little more than the current needs, so that the left overs can be used against a future meal. i ask myself this question - what happened to vethu concept in vogue for apparently centuries which we gave up in one shot? are we becoming lazy by cooking more so that we can reuse the food another time and saving us the effort? are we becoming more conscious of the value of food that we save it for another day? what about the raapitchai guy who is now deprived of the food due to our changed habit? one fridge - an old mechanical innovation - change in social more, attitude, charity, concept of left over and many more. this is what i mean by all changes are interconnected. it is just that we are not aware.

i am probably the first generation of children of planned families (i am 57). did my parents' generation ever think of the catastrophic situation we have in terms of finding mates for our youth today when they bought the concept of small families? the list is endless and overwhelming. what i feel is important for me, is to separate the fact from the emotion, come to terms and move on. tension is the biggest killer of humans. tension mixed with anxiety devastates. tension mixed with anxiety and fear is catastrophic. from tension which is me, to anxiety which impacts my family, to fear which impacts the community.

which is why i use the word discipline very sparingly. it is a term fraught with danger, because each of us has our own concept of discipline. if discipline, as you believe it, gives you a structure in life, and helps you deal with its issues well, practise it. if you find it confining to a strait jacket, find an alternate discipline.

almost all changes are beyond my control. many are frightening at the first sight. in another thread, i can under ramaa's angst about the future of our community. i too have had the same or similar angst, for after all we share a common background. but my way of coping could be different from another person. i can say it for people to see that there are alternate ways of dealing with the same issue. there is no right or wrong, it is just 'what works for you'.

re hanuman chant. to me, the chant is a comfort, just like my faith. instead of hanuman, it could be gajananam or kumasudham or raamaaya. this is a comfort to me at all times along with a chant for siva. i cannot reconcile myself to asking favours of God; in the same context, when ill things happen to me, i cannot blame God for it. both of these, i accept, and hope with my faith, i can get through, without being overwhelmed. keep my sanity and good sense without swinging to the extremes.

there are many things that the hinduism of today practices that i do not wish to be part of, be identified. i have indicated so always right at the front, and to discuss that here, would be in bad taste and pointless. but there are many things where i have common, and i wish to stress the commonality. but in those commonness, we find comfort, kinship and trust. one can have all of this and not necessarily share the same views.

thank you malgova.
 
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