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marriage in same gothra

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S

Swamiramjee

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Dear Friends,

You may be aware of the origin of Gothra concept and there is a strong view that marriage within same gothra is not permissible and if it becomes absolutely unavoidable then either girl or boy can be given in sweekaram etc. I have gone through many sastra books I could not find any authentic information and also I do not find any stipulation that marriage should not be conducted for boys and girls belonging to same gothra.

Can any one throw some light on this matter. I am not convinced with replies like it is being in vouge etc. To cite an Example take "Bharatwaja gothram and Garga gothram. These are two different gothrams. So there is no objection for marriage between these gothrams. RIGHT who is Garga rishi ? He is son of BHARATWAJA & SUSEELA. So Garga did not belong to his Father's gothram.

Therefore linking gothra concept for marriage matching needs deep study.
Kindly let me ave your views
 
Same and sagothra marriages

Swamiramjee said:
Dear Friends,

You may be aware of the origin of Gothra concept and there is a strong view that marriage within same gothra is not permissible and if it becomes absolutely unavoidable then either girl or boy can be given in sweekaram etc. I have gone through many sastra books I could not find any authentic information and also I do not find any stipulation that marriage should not be conducted for boys and girls belonging to same gothra.

Can any one throw some light on this matter. I am not convinced with replies like it is being in vouge etc. To cite an Example take "Bharatwaja gothram and Garga gothram. These are two different gothrams. So there is no objection for marriage between these gothrams. RIGHT who is Garga rishi ? He is son of BHARATWAJA & SUSEELA. So Garga did not belong to his Father's gothram.

Therefore linking gothra concept for marriage matching needs deep study.
Kindly let me ave your views
Click to expand...


Smirithis clearly prohibit that.Reference may be had to Vaidyanatha deekshiteeyam.The issue born out of same or sagothra marriage is deemed a chandala from a shastraic point of view.

Also there was a training camp conducted by Kanchi Mutt for brahmins to impart knowledge/ training on such intricate issues where myself and my wife were asked to participate by H.H. in May 2008.
There it was mentioned that such marriages result in physical disability of the progeny which would manifest on exhaustion of purva punya either in this birth or future.These are all matters of faith
 
When there are several gothras to choose, I don't know why people are again and again propagating same gothra marriage.

Hindu system of marriages has the lowest divorce in the entire world. All of us should be proud of this achievement.

Brahmin system probably is much more refined with gothra etc. Let us follow the time tested systems without any questioning. Let us not experiment anything new.

All the best
 
i think there are atleast two older threads, that deal with this subject.

the issue of same gothra marriage crops up, when a boy & girl, apparently to not related bloodwise, and cannot trace any relationship,wish to get married.

otherwise, it is a mere academic discussion, and i think, in this increasingly interacting global village, not given much attention, except those immediately involved.
 
Swamiramjee,

This might help: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/36669-post60.html

No worries, if you get a good match within same gothra, don't worry too much about it. One can pray, seek blessings and marry. God does not punish over such things.

Best wishes.

Sorry did not read your post fully before. If its for academic interest, then you can read thru books on this issue. I liked the book "Hindu Samskaras" by Rajbali Pandey bcoz he traces the origin of some customs in it. He says early smrithis did not prohibit swagothra weddings. Only the later ones did.

This book "The position of women in hindu civilization" by Anant Sadashiv Altekar is also interesting. He mentions in pages 73-74 about the prohibition of swagothra marriages being unknown even in the puranas. It first apepared in grihasutras and was enforced by later smrithis.

You may find this interesting: http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/practices2.html Also the law does not prohibit such things: http://www.zeenews.com/news449934.html

Hindu India has been invaded several times. Temples being ransacked was not uncommon. Women being violated was not uncommon either. Some vijaynagar accounts are shocking. No one knows what 'lineage" each carries in the present times.

So if its for someone wishing to marry someone within the same gothra, maybe you can just tell them to pray and go ahead. These things really don't matter in the present times. No need to make a young couple feel guilty.

Regards.
 
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Marriage in same gothra

Dear Friends,

Thanks every one for their response.
Happyhindu sir I am obliged for the information. My intention is that now a days the inter caste marriage is increasing particularly in tamil brahmin community. Among many factors, the parental contribution to this cause is very elaborate horoscope matching that to by applying some thumb rules instead of consulting a qualified astrologer. By this I do not mean to dipense with astro matching but I would like to insist on the fact let us follow scriptures and sastras and not hearsays.
Dear RVR sir, we are concerned with Tamil brahmins and not Hindus in general. You will agree that after I T explosion the worst affected community is tamil brahmins. The number of inter caste marriage and divorce are increasing. It is really painful and our population is minimum. So it is high time that we do something to retain our identity


suvarchas sir, I beg to differ .There is no specific prohibition in smiritis or in Vaidyanatha dikshiteeyam. I have also associated with the Sankaramutt's classes for imparting our tradation. What is said there is that taking a boy or a girl with in seven genaration of same
family. It is not yet emphatically clear whether the gothras are by generation or by school ie gurukula students of rishis.

What I have read may not be enough, I would request others also
to enligten me
 
Swamiramjee said:
Dear Friends,

Thanks every one for their response.
Happyhindu sir I am obliged for the information. My intention is that now a days the inter caste marriage is increasing particularly in tamil brahmin community. Among many factors, the parental contribution to this cause is very elaborate horoscope matching that to by applying some thumb rules instead of consulting a qualified astrologer. By this I do not mean to dipense with astro matching but I would like to insist on the fact let us follow scriptures and sastras and not hearsays.
Dear RVR sir, we are concerned with Tamil brahmins and not Hindus in general. You will agree that after I T explosion the worst affected community is tamil brahmins. The number of inter caste marriage and divorce are increasing. It is really painful and our population is minimum. So it is high time that we do something to retain our identity


suvarchas sir, I beg to differ .There is no specific prohibition in smiritis or in Vaidyanatha dikshiteeyam. I have also associated with the Sankaramutt's classes for imparting our tradation. What is said there is that taking a boy or a girl with in seven genaration of same
family. It is not yet emphatically clear whether the gothras are by generation or by school ie gurukula students of rishis.
What I have read may not be enough, I would request others also
to enligten me
Click to expand...

Swamiramjee,

If you are interested, you could read the following books:

1) The early Brahmanical system of gotra and pravara: a translation of the Gotra-pravara-mañjarī - by Purushottama Pandita and John Brough.

2) Ancient Indian Education: Brahmanical and Buddhist - by Radhakumud Mookerji.

3) Buddhist incluvism - by Kristin Beise Kiblinger.

4) Hindu Samskaras by Rajbali Pandey.

5) The position of women in Hindu civilization - by Anant Sadashiv Altekar.

From the above books, am able to understand the following sequence:

--The concept of gotra, as spiritual lineage or blood relationship, was unknown in the vedic age.

--After the vedic age, during the time of Panini (around 4th century BC), Gothra signified an academic institution of membership based on physical descent, rather than spiritual potential. This came to be determined from the smrithis, grihyasutras, dharmashastras.

[Please also note that Panini belonged to the Pani tribe, who were considered demons (asuras ?) in the rigveda. It is noteworthy that the connotation of asura in both, the vedas and in the zend avesta, is common - the term has a positive meaning in both texts. Only from the puranic period the assurs started being painted as demonic].

--However, the influence of Buddism also prevailed. Buddhism consided gotra as an indicator of one's spritual potential. And therefore gotra could be changed depending on upward mobility or downward mobility. It came to be considered spiritual lineage and one cud take the gotra of his guru / teacher.

--Much later, after the beginning of the christian era (AD times), the later smrithis codified gothras as fixed descent.

By the time of the later-day smrithis, probably the concept of gothras had changed and a mixed scenario had already been created (that is, a combination of buddhist and hindu concepts). And that probably is the reason why a bharadwaja of bengal does not cluster with a bharadwaja of tamilnadu. Meaning, genetic evidence of a common biological descent, between people professing the same gothra in various regions, is lacking.

Any inputs from others are welcome.

Regards.
 
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Swagotra marriages

A good exchange. Whatever we have inherited as Vedas, Shastras and customs too have come to us thro "karna Parampara". One well informed Shastrigal a few decades ago opined that one's lineage is traced to the "trayarsheya pravaranvidha". If the "gotras" were only schools what is wrong in marrying a boy of the same school who might be of a different lineage. I do not know how many people are aware of another thought that a couple of different gotras cannot marry if two of the three rishis are common to both. It is better to follow the system until it is conclusively proved wrong. Otherwise, all these things have no meaning. I mean no offence. If we cannot convince, let us not confuse. We can concur in the name those great souls. Regards.
 
Few months back I attended a telugu smartha marriage at Hyderabad. Gothra of both boy and girl were pronounced to the entire audience in the hall, as usual three times on each side. It is probably to announce the audience that both the boy and girl doesn't belong to same gothra and the audience approve of the marriage.

I wish the same practice is adopted in Tamilnadu also

All the best
 
Marriage in same gothra

Dear Friends,

Again and again what we say is that practices are tradational or it is being announced in public forum etc. Why I raised this issue is that marriages in our community has become a painful affair due many reasons and inter- caste marriages have become order of the day. While we want to safeguard the culture, we also contribute to give room for younger generation to flout the same by insisting on systems which are doubtful and debatable. My request is let us make the procedure of marriage as simple as told in Vedhas so that the culture is preserved
 
sadasivam.sridharan said:
Would be grateful if any one could give the literal translation of the mangalya dharana mantram " Mangalyam danthuna nena ..........."
Click to expand...
hi sadasivam .sridharan sir,
the mangalya dharana mantram...is not really mantra from vedas..
its like a sloka...its not vedic part...its a custom part....but
we generally accepted as a part of mantra...it follows...

MAANGLYAM THANTHUNA ENA MAMA JIVANA HETUNA
KANTE BANDNAMI SUBHAGESMIN SANCHEEVA SARATHA SATHAM....

meaning like this....i tie this mangalya sutra(thread) made by
strings which is the reason for my life on this auspicious day...
you live for hundred sarad ritu.....means 100 years....
there are a lot of spiritual/philosophical meanings...just now
i explained only literal word meanings....

regards
tbs
 
There is only sapthapathi mentioned in sastras. The tieing of mangalyam is from "purnaic customs" only. I heard that the first instance of this was observed only in LS "Kamesa bhaddha MANGALYA sutrasophithagandhara"...

Pranams
 
Swamiramjee said:
Dear Friends,

You may be aware of the origin of Gothra concept and there is a strong view that marriage within same gothra is not permissible and if it becomes absolutely unavoidable then either girl or boy can be given in sweekaram etc. I have gone through many sastra books I could not find any authentic information and also I do not find any stipulation that marriage should not be conducted for boys and girls belonging to same gothra.

Can any one throw some light on this matter. I am not convinced with replies like it is being in vouge etc. To cite an Example take "Bharatwaja gothram and Garga gothram. These are two different gothrams. So there is no objection for marriage between these gothrams. RIGHT who is Garga rishi ? He is son of BHARATWAJA & SUSEELA. So Garga did not belong to his Father's gothram.

Therefore linking gothra concept for marriage matching needs deep study.
Kindly let me ave your views
Click to expand...

In ancient period people lived together under many maharishis otherwise they followed the Upathesams of Vedas and puranas taught by the supreme maharishis. So they are not their children.
 
DURGADASAN said:
There is only sapthapathi mentioned in sastras. The tieing of mangalyam is from "purnaic customs" only. I heard that the first instance of this was observed only in LS "Kamesa bhaddha MANGALYA sutrasophithagandhara"...

Pranams
Click to expand...

I am made to understand that "Paanigrahanam" is the main part.

In a discourse the upanyaasakaar said that that is why girls and boys should not shake hands ,but say namasthe.

I like to be enlightened.


Greetings
 
SuryaKasyapa said:
I am made to understand that "Paanigrahanam" is the main part.

In a discourse the upanyaasakaar said that that is why girls and boys should not shake hands ,but say namasthe.

I like to be enlightened.


Greetings
Click to expand...

You are right. I also heard the same from the Vathiayar during my brothers marriage..
 
shaking hands intertwines the aura of one body with another to forge friendship or union of thoughts and deeds.since we do not know each and every aura a person has,namaskaram or vannakkam with folded hands is a safe of way of ascertaining friendship or union of hearts.
 
Namasthe,
Getting married in a same gothram subject to have the alliance from the different and distance place of the boy or girl for eg. the groom from tamilnadu and the bride belongs to some other place india may be coming under the same gothram and not blood related will not affect the couple.
chandrasekaran.s.
 
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S.Chandrasekaran said:
Namasthe,
Getting married in a same gothram subject to have the alliance from the different and distance place of the boy or girl for eg. the groom from tamilnadu and the bride belongs to some other place india may be coming under the same gothram and not blood related will not affect the couple.
chandrasekaran.s.
Click to expand...

Dear chandrasekaran ji,

GOthra is not only related to Blood relationship. It is something more than that. Same gothra people have some similarity in there DNA Map which its fusion may create any unwanted effects. Hence it is advised not to marry same gothra people.

Sorry if you have a different viewpoint
This thing i have heard in a upanyasam..

I am a firm beleiver that what ever said in smritis and vedas will never be wrong.
 
In the book by Maxmullar on Bhodhayana and Sathyashada Rishis and their GRIHYASUTHRAMS(Cannimara librari Chennai)He traces this point.He says when Brahmins had to migrate from their ancestral settlemets they wanted to have an identity.So they identified themselves with their Guru or say Rishis in latter period.
So every group had a name and almost and every group had patternal relations.Even after generations these people consider themselves as decendents of that particular Rishi's family.so their contension is they are of same blood.Regarding Garga And Bharadwaja,Each gothra has One TWO three four five and seven pravaras to defferenciate between followers of same Rishi.
 
Marriage in same gothra

Dear Friend

At the outset I would like to point out that Mr.Maxmullar is not an authority about our tradition. On the contrary he was a tool to destroy the vedic belief so that religious conversion would be easier for the christian missionaries His theory of migration of Aryan and/or Brahmins is only a fiction

To the best of my knowledge the gothras represents only schools of various Rishis whose students are identified by gothra names and the hypothesis that those belonging to same gothra are brothers or sisters has no vedic proof. Like many other misconstrued notions this belief is also there. So far it was only hindrance to marriage but now it has reached a stage people have taken law in their hand and go to the level of murder. It is high time vedic scholars raise their voice against such mis- interpretation of Gothras .
 
The real problem right now is shortage of girls among TB community. I don't think it can be solved by just giving up `gothra' restriction.

I think this thread is totally irrelevant and is just to creating confusion in the minds of boy's parents that if `gothra' restriction is removed, the boy will get married.

Please suggest solutions to overcome the shortage of girls. None of us who are organising swayamvaram functions from this forum are capable of creating brahmin girls out of thin air.

We are discussing seriously in another thread `inter brahmin marriages' involving brahmin girls speaking different languages and the same seems to be an immediate possibility.

Let us use our energies in productive discussions in solving the present problems of our eligible boys.

All the best
 
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