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Is Religious Loyalty Greater than Patriotism? ..TVK

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kk4646

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Source : Is Religious Loyalty Greater than Patriotism? | The Rediscovery of India


Note: This is a translation of Pratap Simha’s column titled, Deshapremakkinta doddade dharmaprema? which appeared in Kannada Prabha on August 18, 2012. The picture used in this piece is taken from the original.


August 8, in the Indian Parliament:


“I warn the Central Government; I warn the honourable Members over here… If proper rehabilitation [Of Bangladeshi Muslims] does not take place, you be ready for a third wave of radicalisation among Muslim youth.” The person who said this wasn’t some Mullah but the MP of Majlis Ittehadul Muslimeen, Asaduddin Owaisi.





August 11, in the Azad Maidan, Mumbai:


What happened in Mumbai’s Azad Maidan just three days after Owaisi made this anti-national and inflammatory speech in the Parliament? The Amar Jawan Jyoti Memorial erected in the sacred memory of the soldiers who perished fighting in the First War of Indian Independence in 1857 was desecrated by the crowd of Muslims who had thronged at Azad Maidan for a “protest” meeting. The Muslim youth who had gathered there beat the Memorial with sticks, kicked, and urinated on it. About 58 police personnel were injured in this incident. Whatever our grouses against them, Indians still hold the police in great respect because they are responsible for maintaining law and order and internal security. But then, a certain Salim Chaukia snatched a policeman’s rifle in Azad Maidan and threatened to shoot the cop with it.


What mindset, what alarming portents do these episodes demonstrate?


Just a few days before the Mumbai incident, an SMS emanated from various Mosques: “Where next after Burma, Assam, Gujarat and Kashmir? A rally has been organized at Azad Maidan to protest against the mistreatment of Burmese Muslims. The government and media made a big fuss over the five Sikhs who were killed in America. Is there no value to the lives of lakhs of Muslims? Make sure that this SMS reaches all the media and ministers in India before Sunday.”


What goal was sought to be achieved by sending such a message? Why should Mumbai’s Muslims get angry over clashes between the native Bodos and Bangladeshi illegal Muslim immigrants? Indeed, what was the necessity even, to hold a protest of this sort? ­Rohingya Muslims might be subject to atrocities in Burma. But why should that inflame the Muslims in India?


Indeed, this mindset hasn’t developed of late.


When we open the pages of history, we see the Khilafat movement. When the whole of India was fighting for Independence, the Indian Muslim leadership, in 1919 rallied the community to mount pressure on the British government to save the Caliph in faraway Turkey! Around the same time, in 1920, Mahatma Gandhi began the non-cooperation movement. In a bid to enlist the support of Muslims for his movement, Gandhi offered his unasked-for support to the Khilafat movement. His intentions were unquestionably noble. But then, it is incredible that he missed a crucial point of reasoning: the fact that the Khilafat movement was launched in India to save the Caliph in a country thousands of miles of away from India showed that what united them was not the love of the motherland but the love of their religion. But what happened after that? Much before the Khilafat and the non-cooperation movements ended, Congress leaders and the Muslim leadership fought with each other and parted ways. This fight also marked, and intensified the demand for a separate Pakistan. In this connection, is it possible to forget the Malabar or Moplah Rebellion?


If you are with us, we will be with you,
If you aren’t, we’ll go without you,
If you stand in our way, we’ll step over you
And win Independence


Didn’t Gandhi have the courage of V.D. Savarkar who said these lines to the Muslim community? The fact that he didn’t resulted in the Moplah Rebellion. The British government’s violent suppression of the Khilafat movement gave birth to the Moplah Rebellion. In 1921, thousands of Muslims fell upon Hindus in Kerala. About 10,000 Hindus were massacred in Kerala and more than a lakh Hindus were rendered homeless. They were raped, and forcibly converted.


Gandhi is called the Person of the Century. Equally, he was also responsible for making the Blunder of the Century. The recently-concluded poll for nominating the “Greatest Indian of the Century after Gandhi” showed Ambedkar occupying the top slot. This selfsame Ambedkar in his Thoughts on Pakistan, written years before India attained Independence says thus: “It has been proved by time that Hindus and Muslims cannot live together. If Partition becomes inevitable, we must opt for an exchange of population. In fact, the brotherhood of Muslims is not a universal brotherhood. It is restricted only to Muslims.” [Ed—not verbatim]. Neither Gandhi nor Nehru or any other Congressman understood this.


As we notice, the nation is steadily heading towards yet another round of Partition.


If America bombs Iraq and deposes Saddam Hussein, if George Bush bombs Afghanistan, if Burma perpetrates atrocities on Rohingya Muslims, why should Indian Muslims erupt in violence in India? Why should they kill Hindus in India? And in some cases, this violence erupts for no reason at all. In Sakaleshpur in Karnataka, two Muslim youths collided with a tanker and died on the spot. Immediately, a group of Muslims went on a rampage, destroying shops belonging to Hindus. In nearby Hassan, about 50 vehicles—cars and two-wheelers—belonging to Hindus were vandalized by 15 Muslim youths whom the police have arrested.


What do we call this mindset?


In a recent development, scores of Hindus have begun to flee from Pakistan seeking refuge in India. Rinkle Kumari, a Pakistani Hindu woman was abducted and converted to Islam. The Pakistan government has forcibly taken over the Gurudwaras of the Sikhs. During Eid last year, four Hindu doctors were murdered in Pakistan. These incidents certainly cause pain and anger to Hindus living in India. However, has any Hindu stoned a Mosque owing to this reason? In December 1999 when Islamic terrorists hijacked an Indian airline and took passengers hostage in Kandahar, did Hindus in India attack Muslims here? In 2000, when George Speight staged a coup and deposed the Hindu Prime Minister Mahendra Pal Chaudhuri, and threatened Fijian Hindus, did Indian Hindus attack Christians here? In 1969 Muslims attacked Hindus praying in Ahmedabad’s Jagannath temple because they heard news that the Al Aksa mosque was destroyed. Did Hindus or Buddhists in India attack Indian Muslims when the Taliban destroyed the Bamiyan Buddha statues in 2001 in Afghanistan?


Why then are Indian Muslims protesting against the atrocities on Rohingya Muslims in Burma? Why did they desecrate a national sacred monument, the Amar Jawan Jyoti? Indians accord the same respect to Ashfaq Khan and Hawaldar Hamid (who smashed Pakistani tankers) as they do to Subhash Bose, and Bhagat Singh. What does the fact that these violators kick and urinate on the hallowed memorial of our freedom fighters and soldiers show? What does it tell you where their loyalties lie? To the Indian nation, or to their religion? If their loyalty lies with their religion, what prevents them from migrating to Pakistan? How long should we bear such unpatriotic antics?


The medal-winning sportsmen in the recently-concluded Olympics visited the Amar Jawan Jyoti Memorial last Thursday and paid their respects at the shrine. What does this tell us? That every decent Indian retains this kind of worshipful respect for the soldiers who guard our nation and die for it if necessary. Those who wilfully defile such sacred national monuments are traitors, plain and simple. What would be the reaction if an RSS member or a BJP supporter did something similar to a Muslim place of worship?


Which political party or leader or media has the guts to call for the imprisonment of and strict punishment to everybody who indulged in vandalism at Mumbai? Who has the nerve to book them for treason? In fact, just the opposite has happened. The police have identified about 35-40 people who indulged in this vandalism using CCTV footage. Their response? “We will arrest them after the Eid festival is over.” Contrast this with Kanchi Shankaracharya, Jayendra Saraswati who was arrested in 2004 on the day of the Deepavali festival.


Columnist Sandeep Balakrishna has in a recent article, pointed to a noteworthy aspect. What is the record of all-Muslim nations or Muslim-majority nations in dealing with illegal Bangladeshi immigrants? In the 1990s when Myanmar was under military rule, about 250000 Rohingya Muslims fled to neighbouring Bangladesh only to be turned away. Those who stubbornly refused to do that were summarily shot and/or imprisoned. Even in the recent clashes between Rohingya Muslims and Burmese Buddhists, about 1500 Rohingyas who fled to Bangladesh were turned back. Sometime in 1995-1996, the Malaysian government realized that their nation had some 100000 illegal Bangladeshi Muslim migrant workers. In February 1997, it expelled all of them. Malaysia is a nation where Islamism has been on the ascendancy for at least two decades now. What’s even more telling is the fact that the Malaysian government entered into a treaty with Bangladesh to accept 50,000 skilled workers into the country annually. However, when large numbers of Bangladeshis entered Malaysia illegally using this treaty as an excuse, Malaysia unilaterally cancelled this treaty. Interestingly, around the same timeframe, Saudi Arabia and Qatar expelled 50,000 illegal Bangladeshis. Both Saudi Arabia and Qatar are Muslim Absolute Monarchies. Did they spare a moment’s thought before expelling their Muslim brothers and sisters from Bangladesh?


Thus, when Muslim nations themselves don’t allow Bangladeshis in, why should India get defensive about chucking out these illegal Muslim immigrants who have snatched the land and livelihood of native Assamese?


The need of the hour is for Hindus to discard the inertia they’ve grown accustomed to and face the real problem of Muslim separatism with courage.


Indeed, it is insufficient to simply parrot the hoary Sanskrit verse, dharmo rakshati rakshitah (Dharma will protect those who protect it).


Beware!




TVK







 

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Dear kk4646,

I am not sure whether you (or, for that matter, any of our respected members) will like what I write below. Still, I thought I should write my views on this point which has been raised by you.

Muslims, due to many historical and contemporary reasons/factors, do not feel happy and safe in a mixed society like what we have in India. Even the minuscule group within that community have steadily taken to hardening stand as a result of the west-engineered systematic machinations in Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, Libya, Syria and possibly Iran also very soon. India's policy has been one of "appeasement" and our wise political leaders have always thought that this is the right approach to follow for an enlightened democracy. When there has been such systematic appeasement (செல்லமாக வளர்க்கிறது), the concerned class of people have become accustomed to "asking for the moon", so to say.

The Hindu society of today is not more than a century old and most probably its origin may also be taken as post-Independence. Due to the caste system which prevailed for millennia here, the vast majority of the Hindu society have had no 'stake' in the society or nation. The feeling of 'my country' ranks in the minds of the common man after the allegiance to caste, region, language etc. Hence it will be next to impossible to find an uprising like that which happened in Egypt, to happen in India.

Our people will be induced to action only after enormous pressures have built up and much loss has been caused / is feared to befall us.

In view of all the foregoing factors, I feel there is no point in lamenting about our "inertia" and all that. Believe firmly and stoically in "Que sera sera" and, if you are one of those who believe in guru/godman (godwoman) kind of things, you may ask them how to solve this problem.
 
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Is there patriotism? What you mean by that word? I am deeply concerned with the astrological prediction of calamity.
I am not so pessimistic of India's future. I have faith that Undivided India will exist and prosper.
Muslim religion is different, but is also practiced differently in different regions of the world.
If an Indian can not accept the constitution, he/she has multiple options. To bash a section of India, not represented in the site is not brave or fruitful. All Hindus can lament the 'muslim' behavior, but can not solve the problem.
 
1. Wew must wait for a visnu avatara (can be minor) or follow krishna's advice and fight.

2. Gujarat model seems to work; worth following by other states and bt true secular politicians. When justice sachar asked modi what he has done for muslims, modi said - nothing. This conversation was corroborated by sachar.

3. West, especially, france and germany are waking up to the threat of islam; let us hope more countries realise the vicious threat and start corrective action.

4. There are always pariharams for the bad placement and dhrishti in india's horoscope.

5. It is a serious issue; any discussion without getting emotional and abusive will help us understand the gravity of the problem.
 
Is there patriotism? What you mean by that word? I am deeply concerned with the astrological prediction of calamity.
I am not so pessimistic of India's future. I have faith that Undivided India will exist and prosper.
Muslim religion is different, but is also practiced differently in different regions of the world.
If an Indian can not accept the constitution, he/she has multiple options. To bash a section of India, not represented in the site is not brave or fruitful. All Hindus can lament the 'muslim' behavior, but can not solve the problem.

"To bash a section of India, not represented in the site is not brave or fruitful"

This is not bashing of Muslim community...I have No. of friends in Muslim community who dis -own the terrorism tatics adopted by their community throught the world... and Allah never preached such a behavier.. It is the political system which is bent upon creating hatred ...be in India or anywhere else..

Truth must be accepted that it is the Hindu community which always at the receiving end and always adviced for religious tolerence..

TVK
 
Dear kk4646,

I am not sure whether you (or, for that matter, any of our respected members) will like what I write below. Still, I thought I should write my views on this point which has been raised by you.

In the Indian Independence horoscope, planet Rahu is so placed that the communal (religious, or call it the Muslim) problem will continue to haunt this country throughout its lifetime. The inherent strength of the h/s is low and the maaraka planet mars' mahadasa will commence in Sept. 2025. This dasa will last for seven years and most probably during the antardasa of Rahu (2026-27) this country will see either a very destructive revolt arising due to this problem, or there will be an external attack engineered by such elements (probably with the help of some very powerful country/ies) which will see the end of the India as we see it today.

(My own hope and desire is that even before the above-said time, if this federation - which is highly centralized in the Delhi Government - breaks up like the former USSR, it will avoid much bloodshed and suffering for the common people.)

Muslims, due to many historical and contemporary reasons/factors, do not feel happy and safe in a mixed society like what we have in India. Even the minuscule group within that community have steadily taken to hardening stand as a result of the west-engineered systematic machinations in Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, Libya, Syria and possibly Iran also very soon. India's policy has been one of "appeasement" and our wise political leaders have always thought that this is the right approach to follow for an enlightened democracy. When there has been such systematic appeasement (செல்லமாக வளர்க்கிறது), the concerned class of people have become accustomed to "asking for the moon", so to say.

The Hindu society of today is not more than a century old and most probably its origin may also be taken as post-Independence. Due to the caste system which prevailed for millennia here, the vast majority of the Hindu society have had no 'stake' in the society or nation. The feeling of 'my country' ranks in the minds of the common man after the allegiance to caste, region, language etc. Hence it will be next to impossible to find an uprising like that which happened in Egypt, to happen in India.

The position of Jupiter (Guru) owner of the 8 & 11 houses - hence a malefic for the Independence h/s - in the 6th. house which is an inimical house (Venus') shows that தெய்வானுக்ரஹம் (divine grace) is very weak for this country. Since this causes a விபரீத ராஜயோகம் of medium strength, our people will be induced to action only after enormous pressures have built up and much loss has been caused / is feared to befall us.

In view of all the foregoing factors, I feel there is no point in lamenting about our "inertia" and all that. Believe firmly and stoically in "Que sera sera" and, if you are one of those who believe in guru/godman (godwoman) kind of things, you may ask your problem to be solved by them.


Thanks for your astrological analysation..but as you said I have no knowldge about your predictions and I pray almighty that your predictions should FAIL...!!''

TVK
 
"To bash a section of India, not represented in the site is not brave or fruitful"

This is not bashing of Muslim community...I have No. of friends in Muslim community who dis -own the terrorism tatics adopted by their community throught the world... and Allah never preached such a behavier.. It is the political system which is bent upon creating hatred ...be in India or anywhere else..

Truth must be accepted that it is the Hindu community which always at the receiving end and always adviced for religious tolerence..

TVK
I do not have friends in Muslim community, and I am honest about it. I do not paint all muslims with the same broad brush. Yes there are terrorist in muslim community.
Now realistically speaking what do you mean by "political system". There are terrorists in every political system. Muslims are in every political systems of the world. There are muslim Terrorists in every political system.

You can not wish away the Muslims from the world. One of the commentator here believes that only a dead muslim is a good muslim. But that is not a practical solution. Like I said no body in Muslim world is reading your position, and you are Preaching to the choir in this site. We all can join in your condemnation of all muslim terrorists, but what is that going to achieve.
Do not get me wrong I am not a muslim terrorist sympathizer, but I want you understand the futility of your writing in this site.

To say that country disintegrating or balkanisation of India is patriotism is weird.
There is no advice from me to Hindu community, as I do not think I am qualified to give advice.
I live as a hindu in a non-hindu country. My country gives me freedom to live my life. No body tells me how I should behave. that I think is the decent way of life. Criminals should be dealt with by law enforcement.

So let us get back to your claim of friends in muslim community. Have you brought up this subject with them? May be you can enlighten us with their opinions. Friends discuss these things, and try to solve the problem, instead of sniping behind their back.
This may be revealing exercise. Please do not take it as a personal criticism, I know you through your post only.
 
Ghandiji was shot dead by his very close follower due to Gandhiji's high level diplomacy, that created havoc in the country.

American rulers at present also showcase their highest level of diplomacy BUT are smart enough to stick to their action plans in collaboration with European countries.

Many outburst in many Muslim countries like Egypt, Syria, Tunisia (mostly agitated countries) are the out come of many action plans, concealed behind high level of Diplomacy.

India's political system do have own level of diplomacy. But, that diplomacy ironically puts Hindus on receiving end in the pretext of making the minority community feel comfortable with whatever they do and what ever way they react.


The stinking Indian politics have different hidden agenda, for which Hindus are made scape goats or made to remain dumb for ever.



Diplomacy can take its any form and can be accepted as politically correct or politically incorrect presentation. But, nothing can change the truth, that Hindus living in India can identify. Probably a PIO or NRI, living a secured, just full and truly secular life outside India can not understand such truth.


Talking high has its own charm BUT talking truth has its own pains, deeply engrossed with in.

 
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Ghandiji was shot dead by his very close follower due to Gandhiji's high level diplomacy, that created havoc in the country.

American rulers at present also showcase their highest level of diplomacy BUT are smart enough to stick to their action plans in collaboration with European countries.

Many outburst in many Muslim countries like Egypt, Syria, Tunisia (mostly agitated countries) are the out come of many action plans, concealed behind high level of Diplomacy.

India's political system do have own level of diplomacy. But, that diplomacy ironically puts Hindus on receiving end in the pretext of making the minority community feel comfortable with whatever they do and what ever way they react.


The stinking Indian politics have different hidden agenda, for which Hindus are made scape goats or made to remain dumb for ever.



Diplomacy can take its any form and can be accepted as politically correct or politically incorrect presentation. But, nothing can change the truth, that Hindus living in India can identify. Probably a PIO or NRI, living a secured, just full and truly secular life outside India can not understand such truth.


Talking high has its own charm BUT talking truth has its own pains, deeply engrossed with in.


Ravi,
I am a simple person, I do not understand your term Diplomacy?
Before I came to US I did live in Northern INdia. I had been through Hindu-Muslim riots first hand. I am not impervious to the fear of innocent Hindus and muslims alike. You tell me a realistic solution, other than lamenting in this day and age. By criticizing Muslims in this site are you going to achieve any thing, I do not think so. So we all can sing songs in blue mood, oh sorry some of them will be Talat Mahmood.

Oh by the way you did not offer am astrological prediction of dissolution of India.
 
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Ravi,
1) You tell me a realistic solution, other than lamenting in this day and age. By criticizing Muslims in this site are you going to achieve any thing, I do not think so.

2) Oh by the way you did not offer am astrological prediction of dissolution of India.


Shri Prasad,


Kindly corelate with the listing above.


First Highlight 1


- In this forum we talked about Brahmin girls choosing out of the community.
- In this forum we talked and expressed our concern about child labour.
- In this same forum we talked about brahmins and brahminism and witnessed many hair splitting fight.
- In this very same forum we have expressed our deep concern over international sex traficking.
- In this forum we have exchnaged our views and have expressed our concern pertaining to Divorce situation, political goondaism, discriminations, racism etc.etc.


Honestly speaking, so far I could not find derivation of any concrete solution to all these various issues,subsequent to exchange of "n" numbers of views and ideas.


Are you scared that, this discussion about "priority to Religious Loyalty being into specific religious group OR Patriotism with sense of National integrity and peace" would lead to brewing hatred against one specific group, among/within we all of us, here in this forum?


If we could conclude that, YES!! It would lead to development of hatred against each and every individual of a group in our society, then I think, we can unanimously request Shri Praveen to close this thread, once for all.



For Highlight 2

The direction to which India is headed, there seems no need to have astrological predictions. Any one with or without knowledge of Astrology can figure out what passibly can happen to India, Indians and off course to Brahmins.

 
Frankly speaking True Religion will teach us to;

1)Honour one's own mother.

2)Honour one's own father.

3)Honour one's own perceptor.

4)Honour one's own Motherland.

5)Honour fellow human beings.


Remember the episode from Ramayana where Rama tells Lakshmana that even though Lanka is beautiful and prosperous He will still prefer Ayodhya cos thats His motherland.

So if we do not honour the country of birth/origin..there is no use even praying to God!
 
Frankly speaking True Religion will teach us to;

1)Honour one's own mother.

2)Honour one's own father.

3)Honour one's own perceptor.

4)Honour one's own Motherland.

5)Honour fellow human beings.


Remember the episode from Ramayana where Rama tells Lakshmana that even though Lanka is beautiful and prosperous He will still prefer Ayodhya cos thats His motherland.

So if we do not honour the country of birth/origin..there is no use even praying to God!

Remember the episode from Ramayana where Rama tells Lakshmana that even though Lanka is beautiful and prosperous He will still prefer Ayodhya cos thats His motherland.

hi

yadhyapi lanka swarnamayi....na me lakshmana rochate...

janani janmabhoomi ca swargath api gareeyasi.....
 
Is there patriotism? What you mean by that word? I am deeply concerned with the astrological prediction of calamity.
I am not so pessimistic of India's future. I have faith that Undivided India will exist and prosper.
Muslim religion is different, but is also practiced differently in different regions of the world.
If an Indian can not accept the constitution, he/she has multiple options. To bash a section of India, not represented in the site is not brave or fruitful. All Hindus can lament the 'muslim' behavior, but can not solve the problem.


In the light of the objections made by you and some others also, I have edited my post suitably.What now remains is the minimum which I wish to say.

I will say with all humility, that there is no "bashing" of any sort in my post and there was none before the editing also. What we write here are our views and since this is a website which can be accessed by anyone, I don't think we are theoretically shutting out any section of people from becoming members here.

"I have faith that Undivided India will exist and prosper."

India is still not out of (financial) woods. It is trying to please FDI sectors for the few dollars which will come in. As to your notion of 'undivided India', what actually happens is China has already gobbled up a large part of Arunachal Pradesh (this commenced in the late 1960's - I don't know if you were in North India then and whether you were aware of this.). If anyone of us goes to Mizoram, Nagaland or Tripura (Manipur is slightly different, I learnt, from people who were transferred in there GOI officers' position there - Manipuris don't welcome us though.) we are referred to as "Indians" :). China and Pakistan have jointly taken into their control vast and very strategic areas around Skardu and north-eastwards. India is silent on all these. Thus, the undivided India is a concept only in theory, I will say. But, yes, when someone said "The emperor is naked", there would have been be many who criticized that innocence, that Truth.
 
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கால பைரவன்;158067 said:
The problem is not with muslims, but with non-muslims. If each and every one of us were muslims, this issue would not arise. Therefore, the problem is not with muslims, but with non-muslims.


Harey..Rama..Harey Rama ..Harey ..Harey...

OOPS....Sorry....

Harey ALLAH..Harey...ALLAH..Harey..Harey...

TVK
 
கால பைரவன்;158067 said:
The problem is not with muslims, but with non-muslims. If each and every one of us were muslims, this issue would not arise. Therefore, the problem is not with muslims, but with non-muslims.
hi
better we can call from KAALABHARIRAVAN TO ALLAH BHAIRAVAN...JUST KB TO AB......hahaaaaa....
 
The answer is very simple and easy to verify:

Wait in front of a mosque on a friday and observe the emerging devotees after prayers; what they feel and what they want to do that very moment will be writ in large fonts in their eyes and faces.

All marches, riots and destruction will start after friday prayers; and instructions given in the mosque will be strictly followed.

There was no full account of the week long chennai disturbances in any media. What did happen?

Have you ever seen a charged crowd rushing out of any hindu temple to do damage?
 
Remember the episode from Ramayana where Rama tells Lakshmana that even though Lanka is beautiful and prosperous He will still prefer Ayodhya cos thats His motherland.

So if we do not honour the country of birth/origin..there is no use even praying to God!

Smt Renuka,

Nice try on Emotion ;) Ofcourse, we believe we have more freedom/authority in our homeland.

But, I would think, Rama preferred His motherland not for his parents or subjects, but for the land of Dharma and People practising the Dharma.

So, if we upheld Dharma, and try to convince or shut the mouths of Hindus/Muslims based on its tenets, we can make
up a truly secular India. Bring Philosophies, Principles and Values, People will start following the right path/way of Religion/Dharma.

Unfortunately, our gurus are for popularity/pricetag and the leaders are for vote-tags.

Oops! My opinion ;)
 
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