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India-Shining? IT boom, 55 billionaires, 50% more farmer-suicides?

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tks

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As Indian billionaires hoarded more and more money, the vast majority of the country sank deeper and deeper into poverty.

Many are fleeing India or many that live in India turn a deaf ear to issues of poor people.

Elites are disconnecting from what is going on.

I know this is not a TB specific issues but it is an issue that affect all of us.

I wonder what any of us 'elites' can do?


At a minimum I hope you will listen to the entire podcast below

Nation Conversations: P. Sainath on the Tarnished Truth Behind 'India Shining' | The Nation
 
Very good article Shri tks. Exposing the ground reality of the great Nation - "INDIA".

Indian billionaires hoarding more and more money for himself and his family, his future generation etc are all no wrong. IMO, the underlying issue is the very foundation of Indian Politics and politicians. Most of the strategies and policies to eradicate poverty to a reasonable level are not up to the mark. And if at all there are one or two good policies/projects, right from their implementations till its been served to the end users, it is all full of corruption. There is misappropriation of funds in any aspects of Government investments.

The Indian population is huge and elite and middle/upper middle class community is finding satisfactory improvements among each other in urban areas. Folks in villages and very remote areas are still deprived of the basic needs of the life and the local administrators/politicians are very much busy with their hard work to accomplish their material/financial fulfillment from outside territory, out of their private business, many of which are immoral and illegitimate and by way of swallowing the Govt. fund that are allocated for development projects (because they know that, its already been reduced in real against the figures in record by way of sharing, among the dispersing high-ups).

In all the Administrative/Political levels in the hierarchy, the tug-of-war is about who is able to take the Lion's Share.

 
This is a known story with no solution in sight. Disparity is widening.

The man who sells keerai in a hand-cart has a mobile, but does not have enough
to live in a decent house and to eat a full meal.

 
As Indian billionaires hoarded more and more money, the vast majority of the country sank deeper and deeper into poverty.

Many are fleeing India or many that live in India turn a deaf ear to issues of poor people.

Elites are disconnecting from what is going on.

I know this is not a TB specific issues but it is an issue that affect all of us.

I wonder what any of us 'elites' can do?


At a minimum I hope you will listen to the entire podcast below

Nation Conversations: P. Sainath on the Tarnished Truth Behind 'India Shining' | The Nation

I am not convinced that when some people get rich by genuine efforts (as in IT industry) it affects the poor (farmers).

What I feel is, it is the criminals in finance industry (and government) who are responsible for the class warfare. For example, we were all awe struck at the magnitude of 2G scam. And less than three months after the Coal scam is FIFTEEN TIMES worse and nobody is even investigating it. The mega looters of the nation are those who polish the hands of politicians and get sweet contracts. The coal per ton market price is near Rs.2000. The deal was given to contractors at less than Rs.100 per ton. That is a 20-fold robbery of the nation costing over 25 lakh crores (compare to 2G of 1.75 lakh crores). With only 2 such scams the entire nation's sovereign debt could be repaid! So, who is waging class warfare on poor people? It is the politicians.
 
This is a known story with no solution in sight. Disparity is widening.

The man who sells keerai in a hand-cart has a mobile, but does not have enough
to live in a decent house and to eat a full meal.


the problem here is, even after 60 years, we indian's are yet to come out of their mind set aspiring to be a 'western man', but he is also in to cherry picking.

he wants his children to speak with the right western accent, but still wants to maintain the indian tag, when it comes to hygiene, and cleanliness .. indian public toilets are filthy, but its ticketing agent is happy, he can handle a western tourist pretty well, with his manageable spoken english,

ford car is an aspiration for the average, but the driver would not stop to help a high way accident victim, fearing that police may ask his testimony in the court.. value for human life is very very less.

farmers suicide: we dont care, did i tell him to attempt suicide?
 
The farmers' suicides stories are fishy. We are not Japanese to commit hara-kiri. I think the money is swindled by unscrupulous people. and some ordinary people's ordinary death is reported as suicides. India has shot through heavens in corruption and nothing can be accepted at face value or whatever value. It is totally un-Indian to die like that.
 
IT industry is still a bubble inspite of high revenue earning. Today's crach has hit the industry. Thanks to liberalization and globalization nobody can control prices, not even of vegetables which are merchandises at Malls. Again India cannot claim to have resilient economy any more. There is no direction for the world economy, much less to India's. We have but to await the coming.
 
I am not convinced that when some people get rich by genuine efforts (as in IT industry) it affects the poor (farmers).

What I feel is, it is the criminals in finance industry (and government) who are responsible for the class warfare. For example, we were all awe struck at the magnitude of 2G scam. And less than three months after the Coal scam is FIFTEEN TIMES worse and nobody is even investigating it. The mega looters of the nation are those who polish the hands of politicians and get sweet contracts. The coal per ton market price is near Rs.2000. The deal was given to contractors at less than Rs.100 per ton. That is a 20-fold robbery of the nation costing over 25 lakh crores (compare to 2G of 1.75 lakh crores). With only 2 such scams the entire nation's sovereign debt could be repaid! So, who is waging class warfare on poor people? It is the politicians.

Indeed, criminals in the finance industry and politicians (a euphemism for Criminals for most part) are killing the nation. However there are other things happening also.

Bribing is a way of life and accepted as a way of life. I used to think that 'Hinduism and Sanathana Dharma' is a way of life.

Recently, I was talking to a Principal of a prestigious and up & coming school in the greater Chennai area. She is sort of related to me and I asked her if she can run her operations without paying into bribes. She told me that this is impossible as they continuing to expand facilities, get certification for safety etc. and hates her role having to deal with securing basic needs and being forced into paying bribes.

If one considers how black money has become a way of life for common person, how there is apathy to fight bribes in the system, how there is craziness to copy and mimic the western way of life and spend enormous money at any cost furthering inflation (India does not need Pizza hut and Subway etc in my view which charge enormous price in India), and how there has been steady loss of pride and identity in one's heritage and culture - who among the 'elites' have time to address the needs of extremely poor who are longing for a respectable life style


I think there are many that do get rich by genuine efforts. But the spending habits of a few could cause prices to rise though I have no data to support this guess.

Similarly NRI and others who by doing ordinary work elsewhere earn money many times more than they could earn in India and tend to enjoy throwing money around while visiting the homeland. Once there is willingness to pay then price of those items go up affecting everyone.

Many farmers working on a few acres of land depend on loan sharks and therefore tend to be totally risk averse. If money could be invested elsewhere for better returns the loan terms to farmers do get affected. Farmers are at the whim of nature and if things do not work out they lose their livelihood as well as their honor. A few class mates of mine who worked as IAS officers did tell me that the loan sharks do use Goondas and other pressure tactics to extract money or force prostitution. The suicides rates go up not because of utter poverty but sheer injustice of their wives and daughters forced into prostitution if the loans cannot be paid back.

In other words if one sector of population becomes very rich compared to others there is impact across the board.

I am beginning to have some thoughts as to how advances in IT and software systems can be used to create a successful business (not non-profit, I am against non-profit initiatives since they can become bogus over time) to improve the conditions for an ordinary person in the unorganized sector of India. ...
 
Indeed, criminals in the finance industry and politicians (a euphemism for Criminals for most part) are killing the nation. However there are other things happening also.

Bribing is a way of life and accepted as a way of life. I used to think that 'Hinduism and Sanathana Dharma' is a way of life.

Recently, I was talking to a Principal of a prestigious and up & coming school in the greater Chennai area. She is sort of related to me and I asked her if she can run her operations without paying into bribes. She told me that this is impossible as they continuing to expand facilities, get certification for safety etc. and hates her role having to deal with securing basic needs and being forced into paying bribes.

If one considers how black money has become a way of life for common person, how there is apathy to fight bribes in the system, how there is craziness to copy and mimic the western way of life and spend enormous money at any cost furthering inflation (India does not need Pizza hut and Subway etc in my view which charge enormous price in India), and how there has been steady loss of pride and identity in one's heritage and culture - who among the 'elites' have time to address the needs of extremely poor who are longing for a respectable life style


I think there are many that do get rich by genuine efforts. But the spending habits of a few could cause prices to rise though I have no data to support this guess.

Similarly NRI and others who by doing ordinary work elsewhere earn money many times more than they could earn in India and tend to enjoy throwing money around while visiting the homeland. Once there is willingness to pay then price of those items go up affecting everyone.

Many farmers working on a few acres of land depend on loan sharks and therefore tend to be totally risk averse. If money could be invested elsewhere for better returns the loan terms to farmers do get affected. Farmers are at the whim of nature and if things do not work out they lose their livelihood as well as their honor. A few class mates of mine who worked as IAS officers did tell me that the loan sharks do use Goondas and other pressure tactics to extract money or force prostitution. The suicides rates go up not because of utter poverty but sheer injustice of their wives and daughters forced into prostitution if the loans cannot be paid back.

In other words if one sector of population becomes very rich compared to others there is impact across the board.

I am beginning to have some thoughts as to how advances in IT and software systems can be used to create a successful business (not non-profit, I am against non-profit initiatives since they can become bogus over time) to improve the conditions for an ordinary person in the unorganized sector of India. ...

tks,

please discard whatever your version of brahministic sanatana dharma is.

the principal that you speak of, is yet another tool, in that chain of corruption, of body and soul, willing or unwilling, but unable to break the chain. do not be a party to the principal's bleats, for i think, you are far nobler and can do more for the country than being a paid latchkey of the corrupt ruling cliques.

if you truly love india, join the maoists. weep for azad who was killed. these are the only ones in india, now, who care for the disenfranchised, whether they be tribals, or poor starving brahmin priests of telengana.

quit this forum, go to the grey areas of india, and with your survival skills, and education, and intelligence, be another beacon of their emancipation.

do not stay here in the forum, chennai or wherever you are, any more.

seek the true india, that needs people like you.

jai hind.
 
Last edited:
Sir,

I want India to shine in real terms. But what is happening ?

Mr.TKS is right. Even if you are hundred percent perfect and law-abiding, you are
forced to bribe the Govt. officers, be it excise, incometax, salestax, boiler inspector,pollution control, factories inspector and other dozen govt. officers
connected with your industry. Then you have municipal corns/gram panchayat,
local dadas, trade union leaders, local MLAs and others who all need to be paid
hafta. Otherwise they will harrass you. Those who run the industry know
this well. They openly tell you - if you are making a profit of 5 cr , why not
you give 2% to us. In order to give this, you will have to resort to some
unethical ways of accounting.

Frankly, there is no answer to this problem. What the bribe-takers say is that
he gets a small share only and the amount is shared upto minister level.
 
Farmers should not be given loans. Debt is a trap. It has always been a trap from which they have never been able to recover. The theory that short term loan can help them is unfounded and if any, history shows the opposite. Four years ago the central government came up and bailed out the farmers from Rs.70,000 crore indebtedness. (Ok, it was a bailout for the banks that are unable to recover their loans from the farmers, but nevertheless, some of the farming community did breathe easy with that package; that is also how congress managed to win parliament elections).

What farmers need is proper education. Not the routine college style one. A basic common sense awareness. I proposed a farmers hotline in TN and it has already been introduced. I have recently proposed a similar farmers hotline in Karnataka and it is under consideration. Farmers can call this hotline anytime for any type of help. This is a way of social networking without internet. If they are away from home and lost a purse in a bus-stand where will they go? They call the hotline which will look into their contact database in the same town or native place, link them up. Farmers also get to know what is the actual market price for an agricultural produce and able to get a fair price, instead of getting fleeced by middlemen. Thus, information sharing is one powerful way how farmers can benefit.

People paying bribes are as guilty as those who accept. This does not mean there are some desperate circumstances. I am not including those who are distressed and get fleeced. That situation is equivalent to robbery. But those who can refuse to pay and yet pay a bribe because they want to accomplish something through shortcut are guilty. There are organizations that can help people who are put into "pay bribe or else we won't approve" harassment. Seek help from them. If necessary go all the way into recording the event like Tehelka did. Or, if you know who took your money, record his name, come to internet and report. I think there is a site called " i paid bribe .com" or some such nice site where people can report.

I used to have a driving license in India. Then in US. Now I am back in India but I am not going for the DL since there is a demand for bribes. I will live without DL until the day it becomes known that RTO is clean.

What India need are hidden cameras, live webcast of bribe scenarios, and instant busting of these criminals.
 
tks,

please discard whatever your version of brahministic sanatana dharma is.

the principal that you speak of, is yet another tool, in that chain of corruption, of body and soul, willing or unwilling, but unable to break the chain. do not be a party to the principal's bleats, for i think, you are far nobler and can do more for the country than being a paid latchkey of the corrupt ruling cliques.

if you truly love india, join the maoists. weep for azad who was killed. these are the only ones in india, now, who care for the disenfranchised, whether they be tribals, or poor starving brahmin priests of telengana.

quit this forum, go to the grey areas of india, and with your survival skills, and education, and intelligence, be another beacon of their emancipation.

do not stay here in the forum, chennai or wherever you are, any more.

seek the true india, that needs people like you.

jai hind.

Sri K -

During my IIT-Kanpur days we had large number students learning about the communist manifesto, Mao etc. I was exposed to the teachings of all known communists and even believed like all my friends that there is a solution. A few students ended up coming to North America and continued their sincere attempts to be the intellectuals for a 'support struggle'. There was a Ghadar Party in Canada and another one called Indian People's Association of North America (IPANA) and both had detailed plans for India in which many of my class mates were involved.

These two groups like typical Indian organizations in North America clashed at Vancouver and got arrested (not sure if it was 1976 or 1977)!
Without getting into details let me say that I had first hand experience about such topics and I am convinced that the Maosts methods are ineffective, wrong and will not work. If some of us saw a way for this to work we would have dropped everything and gone to India - at least we were dreaming then as young kids in graduate schools here.

Today's bribe oriented culture that permeates all walks of life involves people who are ready to do anything to gain power and money. They exploit government, religion and any structure in the society. Many priests in temples tend to be corrupt.

I have never come across someone that truly understood Sanathana Dharma to knowing do wrong, exhibit humility and courage at the same time. This forum itself has few such members in my view :)

Violence will not work to throw out the Goondas based governance soaked in bribery. Non-violence strategy preached by Gandhi will not work either.
Only information as power can level the playing field over time.

Thanks for your words, but just going to a place in India without a plan will not work.

Again thanks for sharing your comments
 
Farmers should not be given loans. Debt is a trap. It has always been a trap from which they have never been able to recover. The theory that short term loan can help them is unfounded and if any, history shows the opposite. Four years ago the central government came up and bailed out the farmers from Rs.70,000 crore indebtedness. (Ok, it was a bailout for the banks that are unable to recover their loans from the farmers, but nevertheless, some of the farming community did breathe easy with that package; that is also how congress managed to win parliament elections).

What farmers need is proper education. Not the routine college style one. A basic common sense awareness. I proposed a farmers hotline in TN and it has already been introduced. I have recently proposed a similar farmers hotline in Karnataka and it is under consideration. Farmers can call this hotline anytime for any type of help. This is a way of social networking without internet. If they are away from home and lost a purse in a bus-stand where will they go? They call the hotline which will look into their contact database in the same town or native place, link them up. Farmers also get to know what is the actual market price for an agricultural produce and able to get a fair price, instead of getting fleeced by middlemen. Thus, information sharing is one powerful way how farmers can benefit.

People paying bribes are as guilty as those who accept. This does not mean there are some desperate circumstances. I am not including those who are distressed and get fleeced. That situation is equivalent to robbery. But those who can refuse to pay and yet pay a bribe because they want to accomplish something through shortcut are guilty. There are organizations that can help people who are put into "pay bribe or else we won't approve" harassment. Seek help from them. If necessary go all the way into recording the event like Tehelka did. Or, if you know who took your money, record his name, come to internet and report. I think there is a site called " i paid bribe .com" or some such nice site where people can report.

I used to have a driving license in India. Then in US. Now I am back in India but I am not going for the DL since there is a demand for bribes. I will live without DL until the day it becomes known that RTO is clean.

What India need are hidden cameras, live webcast of bribe scenarios, and instant busting of these criminals.

DrBarani -

May be I should brainstorm with you as to how you can make additional Rs 10 Crores while solving some of these problems..

Though I left Physics as a profession long time ago in order to have a better living, I still can sense anyone that thinks like a Physicists even if they are engineers :) .. My children think that is elitist thinking
icon7.png


I have a feeling you are a Physicist based on your posts even if your degrees were in another field
icon7.png


Regards
 
Dear Dr.Barani,

Sir, you are too simple a person. You do not know how a bribe is extracted.
Please come and run an industry and you will know first hand how these
things are being done.
If you pay someone and report about it, the entire department is up against
you and will harass you with all sort of questions - no comma here, this should
have been a capital letter etc. The worst thing is they will raise one objection
at one time. After you clarify it, the next one will crop up. And so on....
They say ' look you got my friend into difficulty, I will show what we can do
for you '. You are put into lot of mental agony, waste of time and money.
Then you reconcile and pay up and save money and time.

Again, think for a while to whom you are complaining ? His boss is more
corrupt and will call his junior and tell him - don't be cheap, demand more '

This starts at the lowest level. The gram panchayat level. The clerk
demands Rs100 more to give you a form of Rs.1000 for water connection.He says this is shared.
 
Dear Dr.Barani,

Sir, you are too simple a person. You do not know how a bribe is extracted.
Please come and run an industry and you will know first hand how these
things are being done.
If you pay someone and report about it, the entire department is up against
you and will harass you with all sort of questions - no comma here, this should
have been a capital letter etc. The worst thing is they will raise one objection
at one time. After you clarify it, the next one will crop up. And so on....
They say ' look you got my friend into difficulty, I will show what we can do
for you '. You are put into lot of mental agony, waste of time and money.
Then you reconcile and pay up and save money and time.

Again, think for a while to whom you are complaining ? His boss is more
corrupt and will call his junior and tell him - don't be cheap, demand more '

This starts at the lowest level. The gram panchayat level. The clerk
demands Rs100 more to give you a form of Rs.1000 for water connection.He says this is shared.

All those bribe seekers have one fatal weakness. They are cowards. They are too damn afraid of their name becoming public, lot more than any police case against them. Therefore, that weakness can be attacked, by bringing out their names to internet. Lets not concede defeat saying that "the whole department will come after us". Truth is on our side. Lets fear nothing under the bluesky.
 
Indeed, criminals in the finance industry and politicians (a euphemism for Criminals for most part) are killing the nation. However there are other things happening also.

Bribing is a way of life and accepted as a way of life. I used to think that 'Hinduism and Sanathana Dharma' is a way of life.

Recently, I was talking to a Principal of a prestigious and up & coming school in the greater Chennai area. She is sort of related to me and I asked her if she can run her operations without paying into bribes. She told me that this is impossible as they continuing to expand facilities, get certification for safety etc. and hates her role having to deal with securing basic needs and being forced into paying bribes.

If one considers how black money has become a way of life for common person, how there is apathy to fight bribes in the system, how there is craziness to copy and mimic the western way of life and spend enormous money at any cost furthering inflation (India does not need Pizza hut and Subway etc in my view which charge enormous price in India), and how there has been steady loss of pride and identity in one's heritage and culture - who among the 'elites' have time to address the needs of extremely poor who are longing for a respectable life style


I think there are many that do get rich by genuine efforts. But the spending habits of a few could cause prices to rise though I have no data to support this guess.

Similarly NRI and others who by doing ordinary work elsewhere earn money many times more than they could earn in India and tend to enjoy throwing money around while visiting the homeland. Once there is willingness to pay then price of those items go up affecting everyone.

Many farmers working on a few acres of land depend on loan sharks and therefore tend to be totally risk averse. If money could be invested elsewhere for better returns the loan terms to farmers do get affected. Farmers are at the whim of nature and if things do not work out they lose their livelihood as well as their honor. A few class mates of mine who worked as IAS officers did tell me that the loan sharks do use Goondas and other pressure tactics to extract money or force prostitution. The suicides rates go up not because of utter poverty but sheer injustice of their wives and daughters forced into prostitution if the loans cannot be paid back.

In other words if one sector of population becomes very rich compared to others there is impact across the board.

I am beginning to have some thoughts as to how advances in IT and software systems can be used to create a successful business (not non-profit, I am against non-profit initiatives since they can become bogus over time) to improve the conditions for an ordinary person in the unorganized sector of India. ...

Shri tks,

Also to include is, the offer of Rice at Rs.1/kg through PDS by DMK Govt. was a great agony to farmers. Now, the offer of 20kgs of Rice totally free of cost by AIADMK, is causing a great concern. Farmers are considered zilch, who stuggle a lot in farms and comes to so called fair marktet - "Uzhavar Sandhai" to sell at a good cost without middle men. But, ironically, they suffer loss due meager price fixed up by Govt. agencies.

If Govt. can offer Rice at Rs.1/kg or free of cost, why is it at the cost of farmers? Why farmers are betrayed? Are they elite groups who can shed their blood for other poor communities?

 
DR Barani in # 11-India Shining:

Farmers should not be given loans. Debt is a trap. It has always been a trap from which they have never been able to recover. The theory that short term loan can help them is unfounded and if any, history shows the opposite.

Asset value wise rich. But earnings(cash flow) wise highly unpredictable and erratic. This in short is the story of agriculturists in India. I am talking about small and medium size land-holdings in the rural India. The large/rich farmers and estates are a different ball game altogether. I am not talking about them. They are more than capable of solving their problems. I have witnessed from close quarters how my father used to pledge ornaments and spend the money for the annually twice agricultural operations and then go borrowing from left and right for meeting social(attending marriages, upanayanams, deaths etc.,) and personal(like medicines, hospitalisation etc.,) needs. Later came the cooperative societies which used to lend for short term on reasonable rate of interest that too against the security of personal guarantees alone. This brought about a remarkable change in his life. He was no more at the mercy of the money-lender and his greed. So giving loans to farmers is a need and if it is addressed by the Government it is good. Even if the Govt. does not address this problem there are usurious mondylenders who will address this need and make money. The theory that Short term loan helps is indeed well founded. Please explain as to the reasons for your saying the opposite.


Four years ago the central government came up and bailed out the farmers from Rs.70,000 crore indebtedness. (Ok, it was a bailout for the banks that are unable to recover their loans from the farmers, but nevertheless, some of the farming community did breathe easy with that package; that is also how congress managed to win parliament elections).

It was a hundred percent bailout for the banks and 50% bail out of farmers.

What farmers need is proper education. Not the routine college style one. A basic common sense awareness. Farmers also get to know what is the actual market price for an agricultural produce and able to get a fair price, instead of getting fleeced by middlemen. Thus, information sharing is one powerful way how farmers can benefit.

Information at the right time in the right hands is money. But then just information alone without cash will not be of much use. Our small and medium farmers need cash for inputs and consumption and that is not available adequately. This at times results in such funny situations like the farmer cooking and eating away all the hybrid seeds given at a subsidy for sowing and cultivating.

People paying bribes are as guilty as those who accept. This does not mean there are some desperate circumstances. I am not ……………..or some such nice site where people can report.

In agricultural operations bribe is not such a burning issue and we are able to workaround the corrupt and manage. The farmers credit card is an innovation which helps in this(you don’t have to pay a bribe for every instalment of loan given to you).
 
DR Barani in # 11-India Shining:



Asset value wise rich. But earnings(cash flow) wise highly unpredictable and erratic. This in short is the story of agriculturists in India. I am talking about small and medium size land-holdings in the rural India. The large/rich farmers and estates are a different ball game altogether. I am not talking about them. They are more than capable of solving their problems. I have witnessed from close quarters how my father used to pledge ornaments and spend the money for the annually twice agricultural operations and then go borrowing from left and right for meeting social(attending marriages, upanayanams, deaths etc.,) and personal(like medicines, hospitalisation etc.,) needs. Later came the cooperative societies which used to lend for short term on reasonable rate of interest that too against the security of personal guarantees alone. This brought about a remarkable change in his life. He was no more at the mercy of the money-lender and his greed. So giving loans to farmers is a need and if it is addressed by the Government it is good. Even if the Govt. does not address this problem there are usurious mondylenders who will address this need and make money. The theory that Short term loan helps is indeed well founded. Please explain as to the reasons for your saying the opposite.




It was a hundred percent bailout for the banks and 50% bail out of farmers.



Information at the right time in the right hands is money. But then just information alone without cash will not be of much use. Our small and medium farmers need cash for inputs and consumption and that is not available adequately. This at times results in such funny situations like the farmer cooking and eating away all the hybrid seeds given at a subsidy for sowing and cultivating.



In agricultural operations bribe is not such a burning issue and we are able to workaround the corrupt and manage. The farmers credit card is an innovation which helps in this(you don’t have to pay a bribe for every instalment of loan given to you).

Lending to farmers has been happening from time immemorial, but the farming community has remained poor. Poor, illiterate, living on uncertainty, living under the duress of lenders, living under the mercy of middlemen and government. Why didn't the lending to farmers convert them into a rich class? Because, lending, by its design is not investment. It is a scheme to rob the small margin of the farmer of his produce. And if the rains fail even once, if the water supply goes missing due to politics, if the inflation hits their bottomline with rocketing labour costs and sizzling fertilizer prices, no amount of bank loan will help them recover. It is an uncertain industry. This is why banks never lend to farmers on their own, and only under orders from government they lend. And Government is only looking for short term political gains but no interest on improving the comfort levels of the farmers.

Debt has been a trap not only for farmers. Even US government has ended up in unchartered financial territories.

The money itself is a fraud when it is represented by a fiat currency.

1. The money is already borrowed when it gets created. That is how Federal Reserve Bank is involved in the game. It "Creates" a dollar when there is a demand and lends it to the Banks. The banks borrow from Fed at a very low rate (Libor) and forward it to the borrower. The money creation is done by "expanding the balance sheet" of Federal Reserve Bank. When the money is repaid by the borrower to his bank it returns back to Fed which is supposed to "shrink the balance sheet" and "destroys the dollar". Thus the creation of money is already tied to a lending scheme. It is called M1 (money supply 1).

2. Now as the created money is revolving around the capital markets there are times it is temporarily at rest (deposited in a bank). This deposited money is once again loaned to another borrower (to keep it moving instead of resting). This is the Second Level Lending of the dollar. This is called M2 (Money Supply 2). The same dollar is now under multiple obligations. That is not an economically viable model. When Mr.X borrows 1 dollar at 1% and lends it to Mr.Y at 2% it becomes a lending Pyramid Scheme and eventually becomes unsustainable. The cost of that pyramid scheme ends up as a entropy factor and a loss to the net worth of the dollar.

Hence the fundamental assumption that creation of money must be tied to a lending scheme is flawed when money is easily created at one end. No matter how much effort is taken to justify "value creation" from the borrowed money still doesn't eliminate the entropy factor.

Borrowed economy with fiat currency is at best a Zero Sum game and at worst it is a loss making game. It is close to Zero Sum game if Gold is used as a currency. The only beneficiaries of the lending pyramid schemes are those sitting at the top - the banks. This is why the banking sector ended up owning over 64% of all the liquid wealth. No other industrial sector comes anywhere close to that.

Hence, in the overall scheme, debt is BAD for everyone and farmers with all their weaknesses are most vulnerable.

First of all, people must shed their belief that the only way farmers can survive would be by borrowing in short term. That is an invalid claim. There are better methods and unfortunately both time and resources (as well as intellectual property rights) do not permit me to delve into those methods.
 
Dr.Bharani,
You are right that debt is a trap. This is applicable to all , not only to farmers.

There are farmers with small-holdings and it is they who suffer. Big landlords
are quite rich, powerful and influential.

The smaller people live in the hope of good monsoon. If we have good rains,he
is able to reap a good harvest. If it is playing truant or if it is heavy, he suffers in
either case.

Co-operative and Land mortgage banks receive instructions from the Govt.s to
lend to such farmers. Hereagain, there is malpractice. If the loan is , say, Rs.2000
he is given Rs 1000 and the balance is shared between the politicians and the
bank officers.

With this small amount, the farmer could do nothing and so he spends it as
consumption loan. He is unable to come out of it. Some keep paying interest
and hope that there will be general waiver. Some forget the entire thing with
some clout. The local panchayat leaders tell them - why do you worry, you
need not repay it.

Subsequently, even if there is a reasonably good monsoon, the farmer has no
capital and agricultural production is stagnant.
 
Dear Dr.Bharani,
From the tone of your posts, I gather you are advising some Govts. on
agricultural and monetary reforms, and I thought it would be helpful
if you know the ground realities of the rural economy, political mischiefs
etc. It is not my intention to counter whatever you say.

Unless the leaders are reformed and dedicate themselves to improve
our country, these sorts of things will continue.
 
Dear Dr.Bharani,
From the tone of your posts, I gather you are advising some Govts. on
agricultural and monetary reforms, and I thought it would be helpful
if you know the ground realities of the rural economy, political mischiefs
etc. It is not my intention to counter whatever you say.

Unless the leaders are reformed and dedicate themselves to improve
our country, these sorts of things will continue.

Exposing bribes via websites and other means is possible.
When all one does is provide nuisance to the cowards who take bribes nothing will happen.

However if one becomes serious the cowards employ Goondas and other crooks to threaten or harm one's family.

I have a few class mates who are very high in Government jobs (IAS , IAAS, Bank etc) - these people have not made much money because they are straight and do not live a luxury life like some of their other colleagues. One of my friend, some years ago in his roles as a senior customs commissioner caught a Tamil Nadu Minister doing relatively small time smuggling across the border. He ordered that fellow to jail which was possible just for a night!
Since that time my friend had to face threats and he was moved from his post to a less desirable location. In other words these people do retaliate.

I like DrBarani's determination. I hope there is a way he can run his business without yielding. I have a few friends who have their own companie and have managed to stay clean and not yield to the pressure to pay into bribes. At least that is what they tell me
 
Dear DrBarani,

Dr Barani in #18.

Lending to farmers has been happening from time immemorial, but the farming community has remained poor. Poor, illiterate, living on uncertainty, living under the duress of lenders, living under the mercy of middlemen and government. Why didn't the lending to farmers convert them into a rich class? Because, lending, by its design is not investment. It is a scheme to rob the small margin of the farmer of his produce. And if the rains fail even once, if the water supply goes missing due to politics, if the inflation hits their bottomline with rocketing labour costs and sizzling fertilizer prices, no amount of bank loan will help them recover. It is an uncertain industry. This is why banks never lend to farmers on their own, and only under orders from government they lend. And Government is only looking for short term political gains but no interest on improving the comfort levels of the farmers.


The poverty of farmers in India is well understood and documented.The farmers have remained poor if their holdings are just bare minimum (due to fragmentation). Below a critical size of the land holding, farming as an "industry" is not viable. But small and marginal farmers in our country hold on to their non-viable holdings because they have nothing else to do other than farming and they have no surpluses to acquire additional land area and increase the size of their holdings. It is these small and marginal farmers who form the majority of the farmers' population of the country. This is the reason why we keep hearing stories of suicide due to debt burden. The illiteracy adds to the woes because it denies them the knowledge of other avenues for making a living. There are only two ways to deal with this poverty. One is to organize these farmers in communes and make their holdings viable. This is possible only in communist countries. The other solution is to lend small input and consumption loans to farmers so that their dependence on money lenders is minimised. Still the farmer will default in his loans if there is a crop failure and that can be covered by a crop insurance. This is the approach the Indian Govt. has adopted. The Govt.’s failure is on another front. We have neglected water management completely. The command areas served by large irrigation schemes have less of a problem. But that land mass which depends on rain filled and partly river filled tank irrigation has suffered in a big way and we have not done much in this area. If all the irrigation tanks of Tamilnadu are repaired (the silt removal, sluices repair, channel clearance/relaying etc.,) it will substantially improve water utilisation and will result in better yield. Whatever little that has been done is also a bad job done in a hurry and has helped only the politicians and their benami contractors. By carrying out these repairs you can straighaway increase the yield and thus the income in the hands of the farmer. Banks will get their loans repaid, Insurance cos will not have to pay out on failed crops etc. But I do not know why this is not done. In the absence of this kind of a long term solution denying credit to farmers ( at least a short term solution) will be cruel and that too in a country in which an industrialist can mismanage his industrial unit, make it “sick” and then have all his working capital over-dues( interest included!) funded again as a term loan with a long pay back period and what more, he can also get fresh working capital limits to draw down. And again he can default and the story goes on like that.


Debt has been a trap not only for farmers. Even US government has ended up in unchartered financial territories


A small farmers circumstances are quite different from that of the US Government. My understanding is that unrestrained social security spending, liberal corporate tax cuts and holidays and the quagmire of its war efforts have landed US in its present miseries. The rising unemployment has tied its hands from effecting any cuts in the social security front. Corporates can not be touched for obvious reasons and war efforts are such that you can not pull out quickly when you want. Poor Obama. He is in a real soup. They can either print currencies or borrow from lenders-public, China, Japan, India etc., They do not want to print currencies as it will set in motion a train of other unmanageable nightmares. They would prefer to wait and allow the time and GDP to take care of the deficits instead. The other source of borrowed funds –China and other countries investing in sovereign debt treasury notes is the easy option which they have taken. I think my understanding is correct. If not you may correct me.


1. The money is already borrowed when it gets created. That is how Federal Reserve Bank is involved in the game. It "Creates" a dollar when there is a demand and lends it to the Banks. The banks borrow from Fed at a very low rate (Libor) and forward it to the borrower. The money creation is done by "expanding the balance sheet" of Federal Reserve Bank. When the money is repaid by the borrower to his bank it returns back to Fed which is supposed to "shrink the balance sheet" and "destroys the dollar". Thus the creation of money is already tied to a lending scheme. It is called M1 (money supply 1)

.2. Now as the created money is revolving around the capital markets there are times it is temporarily at rest (deposited in a bank). This deposited money is once again loaned to another borrower (to keep it moving instead of resting). This is the Second Level Lending of the dollar. This is called M2 (Money Supply 2)
The same dollar is now under multiple obligations. That is not an economically viable model. When Mr.X borrows 1 dollar at 1% and lends it to Mr.Y at 2% it becomes alending Pyramid Scheme and eventually becomes unsustainable. The cost of that pyramid scheme ends up as a entropy factor and a loss to the net worth of the dollar.
Hence the fundamental assumption that creation of money must be tied to a lending scheme is flawed when money is easily created at one end. No matter how much effort is taken to justify "value creation" from the borrowed money still doesn't eliminate the entropy factor.

This is quite a lot of monetary theory. But I have just two questions. (1) Is there an alternative to money? I am sure you are not recommending barter system again because we are not living in self sufficient villages and economy of scale is the bible by which we all swear now. Or would you suggest Gold? (2) Is GDP not a factor? On what basis does the Fed(RBI) create money? Is there not an underlying formula? I do not find you have discussed these things here yet.


Hence, in the overall scheme, debt is BAD for everyone and farmers with all their weaknesses are most vulnerable.


Now from the borrower’s angle: When I borrow I too take a risk.My expectation to make sufficient money out of that borrowed money to pay back the principal and interest and retain a profit is based on sound homework. If there are no lenders I will have to postpone indefinitely my venture as I will have to wait for capital accretion which is tortuous and economies do not grow that way. So debt per se is not bad.


First of all, people must shed their belief that the only way farmers can survive would be by borrowing in short term. That is an invalid claim. There are better methods and unfortunately both time and resources (as well as intellectual property rights) do not permit me to delve into those methods.


When you get time, I would like to know this from you.

Cheers.​
Last edited by suraju06; Today at 01:29 PM.​
raju
 
Last edited:
In the olden days farming was different. The crops were not of short-term
nature like the present. There is nothing in the grains grown now. You
must look into or rather feel the quality of the paddy crop grown in the
old days. They were very firm and solid . Natural manure was used.
Now we are using the pesticides and other fertilisers which affects the
quality of the grains. We do not know what we eat.

Today agriculture is a neglected sector, and we do not get adequate
workers. Wages in the bricks-making sector is higher than what they
get in food grains and the labour has moved there. The villagers have now
moved into towns and cities and there is dearth of agricultural labour.
It is the small landowners who suffer because of non-viability.

We have a commodity market in every town for price-fixation. I do not
know the modus-operandi, but I always see quite a rush there. Are the
farmers, small ones, getting a fair-price ?

As said earlier, agriculture depends upon the monsoon; excess of it or
deficit affects the total output, putting the farmers into financial problems.
They look to the Govt. for loan or grants.

Many of the agricultural lands and also small lakes are converted into
flats and shopping complexes resulting in the shrinkage of agriculatural
land and also water-supply. In Madras, all the lake areas like West
Mambalam, Valluvar kottam, Velachery have vanished.
 
CCTV/Cams

Dr Bharani ref. post # 11 : In India who do you think will control the CCTV/Cams. Who will have access to them. How do you suppose these things, CCTV/Cams, will work here. Corruption is almost made as the 5th Veda and I doubt even Kalki Avatar will be able to sweep this aside.
 
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