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In defence of the week-end/wannabe Brahmins.

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Dear Friends,

I have come across the term week-end/wannabe Brahmins in various threads in this forum. These are names used to indicate/identify the non-orthodox, non-reformist, middle-of-the-path Brahmins. Usually these terms are used more in a derisive, dismissive, taunting and sarcastic tone with a lot of contempt. I thought It would be useful to analyze whatever is there that makes these Brahmins the butt of such criticism.

Orthodox Brahmins are those who are fairly well versed in Vedas and shastras and follow a pious life as required by the shastras and as modified/taught by learned elders. They are steadfast in their belief and convictions and would have nothing to do with the reformists in the other end of the spectrum. They meticulously avoid reformists as they believe any contact with them would lead inevitably to bad influence/corruption/pollution. This group firmly believes with the same intensity and finality that there is God as the atheists believe there is no god. They are afraid of committing and accumulating sins. If you present a choice before them to live happily by committing a sin or to not commit it and live in miserable conditions, they would choose the latter instinctively and deliberately as well. For them the Vedas, shastras, puranas and itihasas are all guiding lights and an Acharya is held in a very venerable position. They live their life strictly as stipulated in scriptures without expecting any thing tangible in return. Even if the whole of the rest of the society criticizes them for their views and way of life, they won’t argue it out or try to prove anything to the critics. They simply leave such critics alone and move ahead to pursue what is dear to their heart. They are usually unassuming, modest, and spend most of their time in silence or in studying scriptures and are generally poor by the economic standard of the society.

In the other end of the spectrum are the reformists. These are people who have acquired western education and have also adopted western ways of living. They do not have the time or inclination to study Vedas or shastras in the traditional way as these have no value for them. If you ask them they would tell you that they have studied these Vedas and shastras and then only have come to the conclusion that there is nothing much in them. This would be true also as these people have studied Vedas and shastras with the help of English and with the help
of books authored by foreigners. They are quite at home with the thought constructions and structure of presentation by the westerners than with the rigorous, archaic presentation of ideas by our ancestors in their numerous Sutras, Bhashyas, Vrittis and Vyaakhyaanams.
These people can be easily identified in a forum from their authoritative and loud voices/views and as they are suave they can be easily noticed from their free flowing language. These are people who may be successful in their fields of specialization. Except those who belong to some political denominations, others in this group are generally economically well off. A very important quality of these people is to challenge the orthodox/wannabe brahmins at every opportunity as if they can not find fulfillment of their life’s mission without converting an orthodox/wannabe Brahmin to their way of thinking. They arrogantly rub their views on all and sundry with missionary zeal and believe passionately that they are doing it out of their concerns for others who are wallowing in ignorance. It is this group which coins the terms like wannabe Brahmin etc. Please note that ‘wannabe’ is American slang. These people, if they are living in USA or any other Western Country, would have adopted western way of life and might have even allowed their children to adopt the western value system. If you tell them that they have failed in their duty to their children or that they have chosen the easy option in bringing them up(due to their own laziness) they will be stung and would strike back viciously at you because it is a raw nerve that you would have touched. The first group (orthodox) has only contempt for these people as these are, in their view, milechchas. With their investment of time in secondary (meaning: through alien languages) sources for knowledge about Vedas etc., the reformists sincerely believe that they have understood every thing that is there in Vedas and other scriptures. Thus they live in their own ivory towers in sweet isolation and supine ignorance.

Now we have this middle-of-the-path group called the week-end/wannabe Brahmins. These are people who struggle to make a decent living.Whether it is an ordinary school teacher, a farmer in the village who knows nothing other than agriculture, an ordinary Government/bank employee, a cook, a small trader, an Engineer in State Electricity Board, a marketing manager in a multinational company, a software engineer in a MNC, or a Doctor who runs a clinic -- these are all people who spend most of their time in making their career successful. They spend most of their time and energy in a day in their office. Many of these people, because they are born to Brahmin parents and have been brought up in an environment which was conducive to pick up the values that go with a Brahmin family, have an innate natural desire to live a pious and satvic life. Being in the midst of a rat race for success they find no time to live the way they want. For sheer survival they have to live the way the majority lives, clawing, fighting and shooting their way to success. Their yearning for the other satvic, quite and pious life, pursuing knowledge about God is real and they are very passionate about it. As the time available to devote to their true passion is little they try to get near it as far as possible in their week-ends (if they are working). In the case of older people in this group they find peace and solace in the company of like minded wannabe Brahmins in Sangeetha Sabhas and Kalakshepa Ghoshtis. It is true that they may not even know how to wear a panchagachcham (one of them did not even know that it is called panchagachcham-he called it pankajagachcham!) or while chanting the Vishnu Sahasranaamam they may be using the plosive where a nasal consonant would be the proper one. But their desire to be a Brahmin (I am using the term here to mean everything good in the Brahmin way of life) is deep and sincere. If you can empathize with his handicaps and drawbacks you would also understand his struggle. But the reformists won’t accept any of this. For them the strict yardstick of ‘perfection’ becomes an AK-47 and with it they keep sniping at the hapless week-end Brahmins. Their vein seems to be “Look at me. I have given up every thing and I have the AK-47. Why don’t you do that and join us? We will make a great Taliban army and can destroy every thing”. So these week-end/wannabe Brahmins are the real heroes who are engaged in a relentless struggle for survival. They are fighting in two fronts simultaneously. If in one front it is their competitors in professional life(where you have to keep running in order to even stay where you are) in the other it is these energetic and enthusiastic maverick reformists. Their struggle to keep their identity in tact is indeed an epic in itself.

I am not claiming that whatever I have mentioned above about the three groups of Brahmins is gospel truth. I am sure there will be different views. I would be glad to know them. Cheers.
 
Dear Sri.Raju Sir, Greetings.

The opening post is almost a nice observation. There is more room for refinement, please.

About orthodox Brahmins -
Even if the whole of the rest of the society criticizes them for their views and way of life, they won’t argue it out or try to prove anything to the critics. They simply leave such critics alone and move ahead to pursue what is dear to their heart. They are usually unassuming, modest, and spend most of their time in silence or in studying scriptures and are generally poor by the economic standard of the society.

(for, any orthodox, irrespective of caste/ Religion), Often times, orthodox persons do argue without presenting any logic (need not be any proof at all; sometimes just some logic would do.. but may not be forthcoming). They may not be unassuming though; often times, I have seen some of them quite judgemental towards others. Poverty by economic standard is just a subjective term; poverty in the mind/psyche is the most important aspect. Often times, I found the orthodox types displaying chronic poverty in their minds/psyche.

About the reformists -
With their investment of time in secondary (meaning: through alien languages) sources for knowledge about Vedas etc., the reformists sincerely believe that they have understood every thing that is there in Vedas and other scriptures. Thus they live in their own ivory towers in sweet isolation and supine ignorance.

Any literature open to interpretations, can be interpreted differently by different persons based on their education level, standard of living, background and social fabric structure etc. Unless someting is written down cut and dried, no two interpretation need be the same. So, one can't dismiss a varied interpretation as 'ignorance'. However, just like orthodox persons, these 'reformists' too hold fast on to some of their views.

The week end/wannabe brahmins (or any other caste/religion) are the ones who get pushed by both orthodox at one end and the reformists on the other end!

Cheers!
 
"But the reformists won’t accept any of this. For them the strict yardstick of ‘perfection’ becomes an AK-47 and with it they keep sniping at the hapless week-end Brahmins. Their vein seems to be “Look at me. I have given up every thing and I have the AK-47. Why don’t you do that and join us? We will make a great Taliban army and can destroy every thing”. So these week-end/wannabe Brahmins are the real heroes who are engaged in a relentless struggle for survival. They are fighting in two fronts simultaneously. If in one front it is their competitors in professional life(where you have to keep running in order to even stay where you are) in the other it is these energetic and enthusiastic maverick reformists. Their struggle to keep their identity in tact is indeed an epic in itself."--Raju wrote.

Hello Raju:

Somehow I don't get your "Talibans and AK-47" imagery of the Reformists... maybe, that's your elbow on their floating ribs! lol

My take is this "mass movement" away from the Orthodoxy (which is mostly Superstitious) towards the Reformists (which I call as Enlightened) is a natural process happening among Christians, Jews, Muslims and other religious groups.

Because of scientific thinking that pervades and percolates all Societies stealthily...

Maybe, at equilibrium, there will be only two groups left: all superstitious orthodoxy will be eliminated leaving behind the Enlightened and To Be Enlightened soon.

Wait & watch.
 
suraju,

i hope i partly addressed your query in subbudu's post on hypocracy.

let me pray, move on to some other stuff.

personally, i am no preacher of reform. i consider myself a realist, and hopefully, someone in sync with the fast changing world. not all of it, but to a comfortable extent, so that i too can swing in its newfound rhythm.

i do not consider the modern world a cacophony of jarring ideas, ideals gone wrong or traditions thrown into the wastebasket.

i am blissfully ignorant of the vedas and probably all the religious scriptures, but feel at ease with them, find peace when i hear them chanted, and in no way a philosophical quarrel with the true believers. whatever their intensity level might be.

however, as you very well know, i have been the target of attacks on so many threads here.

right from the ir, ic, divorce, women's emancipation, poonal, spendthrift marriags, greedy ganapatigals and what not.

all pet topics for the conservatives and weekenders. not tolerant i would say. not 'live and let live' i would say.

would it be fair to say, that the above are the characterestics that differentiate the reformer from the rest? what do you think?
 
Dear Mr. Raghy,

Often times, orthodox persons do argue without presenting any logic (need not be any proof at all; sometimes just some logic would do.. but may not be forthcoming). They may not be unassuming though; often times, I have seen some of them quite judgemental towards others. Poverty by economic standard is just a subjective term; poverty in the mind/psyche is the most important aspect. Often times, I found the orthodox types displaying chronic poverty in their minds/psyche.

My experience and observation gives a different picture. Orthodox brahmins do make an attempt to engage others in a dialogue. But when they have difficulty in finding a common denominator, they give up the attempt. The perceptions are so diverse that they consider it perhaps a dead end. Their logical constructs usually goes beyond the cause and effect bipolar format. So we find it difficult to carry on a dialogue with them unless we are ready to unlearn all that we have in our basket. This is the reason why we feel slighted when they withdraw from the dialogue. About the poverty I made just a statement of fact as it exists today.

Any literature open to interpretations, can be interpreted differently by different persons based on their education level, standard of living, background and social fabric structure etc. Unless someting is written down cut and dried, no two interpretation need be the same. So, one can't dismiss a varied interpretation as 'ignorance'. However, just like orthodox persons, these 'reformists' too hold fast on to some of their views.

I understand what you are saying. But what I have mentioned is subtly different. I am not talking here about interpretations. I am talking about acquisition of knowledge it self. When I say "prathama prathyaksham" and finds it translated variously as primary consciousness, virgin consciousness,first impression etc i feel frustrated. But a student who laps it up is for ever misled and condemned to ignorance. I know this is a very crude example. But I think I have conveyed my point to some extent with the requirement that you will have to exert to understand it and get the subtle idea. As for holding fast to their views, I have already said we have to unlearn so that the views vanish and there is space for unbiased assessment of new ideas.

The week end/wannabe brahmins (or any other caste/religion) are the ones who get pushed by both orthodox at one end and the reformists on the other end!
I am glad that you agree with my views.

Cheers!
 
Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

let me pray, move on to some other stuff.

May I know why?

personally, i am no preacher of reform. i consider myself a realist, and hopefully, someone in sync with the fast changing world. not all of it, but to a comfortable extent, so that i too can swing in its newfound rhythm.
i do not consider the modern world a cacophony of jarring ideas, ideals gone wrong or traditions thrown into the wastebasket.i am blissfully ignorant of the vedas and probably all the religious scriptures, but feel at ease with them, find peace when i hear them chanted, and in no way a philosophical quarrel with the true believers. whatever their intensity level might be.

I agree with you fully as many members in this forum would. But why do you say all this?

however, as you very well know, i have been the target of attacks on so many threads here.right from the ir, ic, divorce, women's emancipation, poonal, spendthrift marriags, greedy ganapatigals and what not.

Argument is the stuff with which this forum is made of. Attacks-very unfortunate.

all pet topics for the conservatives and weekenders. not tolerant i would say. not 'live and let live' i would say.

I find you are connecting intolerance with week-enders. Are you sure?

would it be fair to say, that the above are the characterestics that differentiate the reformer from the rest? what do you think?

It wont be fair. Please read my first post carefully once again.

Cheers.
 
Dear Mr. Yamaka,

My take is this "mass movement" away from the Orthodoxy (which is mostly Superstitious) towards the Reformists (which I call as Enlightened) is a natural process happening among Christians, Jews, Muslims and other religious groups.

I dont see any mass movement of the sort you are talking about. On the contrary I am able to see a continuous movement in which old wisdom is retained after removing the cobwebs and new wisdom added to the basket. I do not know about the orthodoxy of the religions you are talking about. But I know this much that the so called orthodoxy of Hindu religion is harmless. Harmless because it makes enough provision for the changes brought about by that great alchemist called TIME. There are no fatwas and no one is condemned to be a Tankaiah in the Hindu religion. This is the reason why reformists here find themselves always hovering in the periphery without any say in the matters that are religious.

Maybe, at equilibrium, there will be only two groups left: all superstitious orthodoxy will be eliminated leaving behind the Enlightened and To Be Enlightened soon.

I note with dismay your prejudice which mixes up superstition with orthodoxy. To that extent your quoted sentence is flawed and is meaningless.

Cheers.
 
Many of the discussions in this forum center around the definition or description of a Brahmin.

According to the Sasthirigal/Purohidhar who makes a living out of his Brahminhood

A Brahmin is one

1. Who does not eat meat or drink alhcoholic drinks. Of course it is another matter that some of them do drink in private. A sasthirigal who drinks is still accepted by his customers though some puritans may avoid such Brahmins.

I had posted in another thread how vegetarianism is not a pre requisite to be a Brahmin.

Neither is avoidance of Alcohol. Soma pana drinking Brahmins. Tharpanam is done with Wine in some Pujas by Brahmins. But not in Tamil Nadu.

2. One who wears a pancha kaccham. What has the wearing of a dress to do with being a Brahmin? The Namboodiris just to quote an example do not wear pancha kaccham. Of course you could even extend this by saying that a Brahmin should only wear a Koupeenam/Kovanam. Some members have propounded this theory earlier in this forum.

3. One who keepas Kudumi. Or some modification of that.

4. One who does Trikala Sandyavandhanam.

Why not the daily Homa? How did the Tamil Brahmins give it up? What about the other duties of the Brahmins?

5. One who does Amavasai Tharpanam and Pitru Shraddham.

6. one who knows the Vedas. But your own definition of the Vedas.

The emphasis is never laid on the learning or recitation of the Vedas. Because many of the Sasthirigals have never attended a Veda patashala. Even when they have been through the Veda Patashala, most of them rarely if ever recite the Vedas daily. Their recitation is restricted to what is required for carrying out the Samskaras for the Yajamanas. Most of them do not know Sanskrit. They carry a Tamil version of Taittriya Mantra Kosam for reference.

The strange thing that even Acharyas do not insist on thir learning Sanskrit.

6. one who believes in total denial of the right of the women to do anything religious.

7. one who believes that Brahmins are a superior caste.

This definition has been inbred into the Tamil Brahmin for ages. Without this indoctriantion it would be difficult for the professional Brahmins to survive.

Most of the Brahmins find it extremely difficult to get over these age old prejudices/opinions.

Even when they break out they feel guilty. Even when they call themselves reformers, non-believers and what not, they are not able to shed this narrow definition of a Brahmin. This sort of conformation is what defines Brahminism to them.

Anyone who does not conform to this narrow definition is called by all sort of names. When provoked they are even called Chandalas and non-Brahmins.

I remember another religious forum with most of the members belonging to a religious cult. Their definition of Hinduism is very narrow. In that forum all other apects of Hinduism which do not conform to their definition is called Neo Hinduism. All other Gods are called demi-Gods. Even when a person rejects the cult his definition and perception of other Gods as demi Gods does not change.

There is a concerted effort to reinforce these views on the younger generation. Unfortunately some young people are taken in by this propaganda. They come to believe that a golden age for Brahmins would dawn if we revert to the Medieval age.

Many of us have been questioning these ideas and practices which are meant simply to benefit the professional Brahmins. It is a necessary because the younger generation should be able to decide on their own.

This is a community. Community of those who consider themselves as Brahmins. And also the well wishers of the Brahmins from other communities.

As has been repeatedly stated no one can question the status of any one here. None of us have to prove that he/she is a Brahmin.

talking about being a Brahmin we had once conducted a Chandi Yagna lasting for 29 days in our house. My Brahmin neighbours would not even accept that as a yagna because we (myself and my wife) did it ourselves. We were given the Adhikara by our Guru who is also a Tamil Brahmin and well known in religious circles. Of course we did not do it for acceptance.
But it shows the intolerant attitude of many of the members of our community.

After all this is a community which never fully accepted Bagavan Ramana Maharishi and Swami Sivanananda.
 
suraju,

all i meant, was that my post here was a supplement to my earlier one in subbudu's hypocracy thread. did not want to repeat myself.

my personal feeling is that i find more intolerance from weekend brahmins than even the orthodox ones.

these are guys who move in and out with NBs and others as equals. colleagues. and more than that, socialize with them.

yet when it comes to marriage or even inviting NBs for certain functions they shirk.

just to show, that there is indeed a future for this crowd - my own family, i have a healthy number of youngsters who will only socialize and marry within tambrams. in chennai. for some it is parental pressure. for most others, it is by choice.

ingredients of tambram superiority has been well and goodly drilled into their brains when they were young. unfortunate but true.
 
The scriptures prescribed an austere living for Brahmins because they were the priests of Hinduism. However, then as it is now, it was not mandatory for any person born as a Brahmin to become a priest. Today, most Brahmins indulge in non-religious occupations. Of course, even in Sangam period, there has been mention of Brahmins indulging in trade or commerce. During the time of Medieval Cholas (i. e. 9th to 13th century AD), Brahmins even served in the army and administration. This being the case, I personally feel that a strict adherence to rituals, vegetarianism and non-smoking, non-drinking in necessary only for Brahmin priests and sanyasis, not for others. Anyway, my personal view is that contributing towards social causes and helping people in need is more important than doing daily sandhyavandanam and abstainment from meat or alcohol.
 
Such discussions are divisive in nature. They generate a lot of heat. But never throw any light.

All communities have to stay united for improvement of the community members.

This is especially true of Tamil Brahmins as many of its members are facing challenges which they are not able to cope up with.

ravirustam84 is right. We have to help the Tamil Brahmins to come up in life and not waste our time and energy in discussing who is a Brahmin and the so called classes of Brahmins.
 
Such discussions are divisive in nature. They generate a lot of heat. But never throw any light.

All communities have to stay united for improvement of the community members.

This is especially true of Tamil Brahmins as many of its members are facing challenges which they are not able to cope up with.

ravirustam84 is right. We have to help the Tamil Brahmins to come up in life and not waste our time and energy in discussing who is a Brahmin and the so called classes of Brahmins.



AMEN.....AMEN.....AMEN..

I do not know how much shortlived this pious idea of bonhomie and good intention will remain..

Somewhere someone will have an itch ..and vr.r.o.o.o.ooom will come a new thread with some provocative and brahmin baiting intention....then some innocents will fall prey to this... lot of gas( or what can it be said for cyber words??) will be the result...

some more quit threats ..expulsion threats...

some mature souls will intervene.... again some semblance of rest...again some new provocation..the cycle goes on..on..

Am I a pessimist? or realist or hypocrat..
 
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hi
some are conservative....some are liberal....some are reformist...some are aetheist.....some are pessimist....some are realistic...

some are idealistic.....some are hypocrat.....some are optimistic.....some are weekend ....some are daily...some are opportunistic....

but all are BRAHMINS........

regards
tbs
 
hi
some are conservative....some are liberal....some are reformist...some are aetheist.....some are pessimist....some are realistic...

some are idealistic.....some are hypocrat.....some are optimistic.....some are weekend ....some are daily...some are opportunistic....

but all are BRAHMINS........

regards
tbs

cheer2.gif


Greetings : : suryakasyapa
 
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Dear Sri.Raju Sir, Greetings.

Thanks for your reply in post #5. The charecteristics of week-end/wannabe brahmins explained by yourself are different from the charecteristics of week-end/wannabe brahmins explained by Sri.Nara.

You are mentioning about the week-end persons who like to get religious during the week-end when they get the spare time to conduct some pujas, recite few prayers or even take part in a homam etc. Such events boost up their feelings, get an opportunity for socialising with like minded persons, gets an opportunity to explain their children about some of the customs and the religion. Sometimes these are the people who get criticised by both orthodox and by reformists. In that respect, I agree with your defending the week-end/wannabe brahmins.

The week-end/wannabe brahmins high-lighted by Sri.Nara are pure hypocrites. They just do things for show off only. I have seen some of them. They are bad news. In fact, such loud mouthed persons get bad name for the community (any community for that matter. Every community has a share of such persons).

Cheers!
 
hi
some are orthodox.....some are racist.....some are revolutuionist.....some are week day .....some are weekend....still we are all members

of this tamilbrahmins forum.......

regards
tbs
 
"some are conservative....some are liberal....some are reformist...some are atheist.....some are pessimist....some are realistic...

some are idealistic.....some are hypocrites.....some are optimistic.....some are weekenders ....some are daily...some are opportunistic...."

This not being Brahmin alone...Thats the Human Race dear TBS...

nice words anyway TBS.
 
Dear Mr. Raghy,
Your post #15 above. In all my life I have not across a single wannabe brahmin of the kind you, and according to you, Mr. Nara are talking about. i dont know whether it is my inability to spot such brahmins or their ability to hide themselves. I look at even brahmins who are loudmouthed (the variety you are talking about) as people who aspire to become something better. To understand this better let us look at this:

A child takes the shaving cream of its father applies it to its face as his father would do it, wears the shirt of his father and is caught by its father. To escape from him it runs away and falls on the ground and dirties its face and the shirt. Now the father is all smiles. I think when Alwar said:

"வெண்ணை அளைந்த குணுங்கும் விளையாடு புழுதியும் கொண்டு
திண்ணெனவிவ்விரா உன்னை தேய்த்து கிடக்க நானொட்டேன்"

and when Rabindranath Tagore said(translated from Bengali) :

"வானத்தில் கிழிந்து தொங்கும் மேகத்தினுள்ளிருந்து முழு மதி சிரித்தால் அதை எள்ளுவரோ........"

they were only hinting at our ability to laugh at ourselves. I do understand that poets are people who are extremely sensitive and so are able to forgive everything easily whereas we are not that sensitive and so we pick up holes always.
Cheers.
 
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hi
some are conservative....some are liberal....some are reformist...some are aetheist.....some are pessimist....some are realistic...

some are idealistic.....some are hypocrat.....some are optimistic.....some are weekend ....some are daily...some are opportunistic....

but all are BRAHMINS........

regards
tbs

Correctly said Sri tbs, all are still brahmins, as relevant to the subject matter of this thread.

 
Dear Sri.Raju Sir, Greetings.

I refer to your post #18. I am previleged to read such a scholarly message. Thank you sir. The explanation for the Prabandham is just excellent. Thank you!

Sir, you are knowledgable; from your numerous messages, I can see, you are not an hypocrite. Chances are, you may not tolerate hypocrites; quite possibly, your elders might not tolerate hypocrites either. It is quite possible, you did not come across week-end/wannabe brahmins described by Sri.Nara.

Incident #1 - Venue - Rayar Choultry, Kondapalayam (Foot of Sholingar Hills). I was 9 yrs.old. Morning time; I was ready to start to go up the hills (the temple opens only at 0800 Hrs). My grandmother was in the room changing into dry madi saree. In the court yard, a group of Iyengar brahmins, loudly talking in Iyengar Tamizh (I grew up in an Iyengar home too); I was eyeing a teen-ager, all by himself; I was planning to walk up the hill with him. The teen-ager was in long trousers and long sleeved shirt; did not look like a brahmin boy at all; he bought a string of flowers and seperated them by breaking it by rubbing on the floor... and getting ready to start. One of the brahmins just slapped him on his left cheek and accused him of contaminating the flowers by biting the string! (He did not). The teen-ager protested.. more blows for lying! When I tried to say that he did not do it, I was bullied away. About 4 elders ganged up on that teen-ager. (I told my grand mother about this; we found that teen-ager in the temple up the hill and grandmother comforted him).

Incident #2 - Brisbane, Australia. I saw this ultra-orthodox brahmin, very vocal, telling others what to do, directing the Gurukkal how to perform the puja. So, what was my issue? Isuue was, I knew that same person eats cooks chicken at home and have seen him drunk.

Sri.Raju sir, I have never been in a position of influence. As a teen-ager, I was asked to leave from a bhandhi (பந்தி) once just for fun. It is good to know you have not come across show-offs. I have.

Only sincere people like you earn any respect for the Brahmin community. By the way, I will be grouping Sri.Kunjuppu along with you too. Amoung the sincere, respectable week-end wannabe Brahmins, while persons like you make one end of the spectrum, possibly, Sri.Kunjuppus would make the other end. (Sri.Naras are not included in this spectrum though).

I sincerely hope, I explained myself.

Cheers!
 
Dear Mr. Raghy,
i know I do not deserve all those good words you have posted about me.Thank you. As my wife rightly says I am just "articulate".
Incident #1 - Venue - Rayar Choultry, Kondapalayam (Foot of Sholingar Hills). I was 9 yrs.old. Morning time; I was ready to start to go up the hills (the temple opens only at 0800 Hrs). My grandmother was in the room changing into dry madi saree. In the court yard, a group of Iyengar brahmins, loudly talking in Iyengar Tamizh (I grew up in an Iyengar home too); I was eyeing a teen-ager, all by himself; I was planning to walk up the hill with him. The teen-ager was in long trousers and long sleeved shirt; did not look like a brahmin boy at all; he bought a string of flowers and seperated them by breaking it by rubbing on the floor... and getting ready to start. One of the brahmins just slapped him on his left cheek and accused him of contaminating the flowers by biting the string! (He did not). The teen-ager protested.. more blows for lying! When I tried to say that he did not do it, I was bullied away. About 4 elders ganged up on that teen-ager. (I told my grand mother about this; we found that teen-ager in the temple up the hill and grandmother comforted him).

Incident #2 - Brisbane, Australia. I saw this ultra-orthodox brahmin, very vocal, telling others what to do, directing the Gurukkal how to perform the puja. So, what was my issue? Isuue was, I knew that same person eats cooks chicken at home and have seen him drunk.

My plea to you is that please forget for a moment that in both incidents the person involved is a brahmin. Then you will see my point. Brahmin or non-brahmin - people are a bundle of positive qualities and negative ones: strengths and weaknesses. While the behavior is condemnable there is no need to brand and classify. Once we attach a label, brand and classify people like 'brahmins are like this, non-brahmins are like this, dalits are like this etc etc., we tend to commit mistakes in understanding people.Life is simple and beautiful and let us not make it complicated and ugly.

Taking advantage of the boy's position such as timidity, physical weakness, being alone against a group, age(age can be quite intimidating if the boy had been brought up as a very obedient person showing respect to elders) was bad in the situation you have given. It is nothing but bullying which shows the lack of maturity of the persons involved. But to say "those brahmins did it to the boy" is stretching it a little too far. My contention is it is enough if we say " they did it to him". Similarly when I read the second example given by you, I could not but laugh. Again I look at it as human weakness not "brahmin weakness".

Sri.Raju sir, I have never been in a position of influence. As a teen-ager, I was asked to leave from a bhandhi (பந்தி) once just for fun. It is good to know you have not come across show-offs. I have.

It is in a way an occupational hazard that we all face if the occupation is "living in this society". When I had come across such behavior I had chosen the path of dealing with the culprits. Much later I learnt(from behavior science teachers) that it is called a transaction between a adult state of mind and a child state of mind. When I thought about it I understood my value system made me choose that path without any conscious effort on my part. Having a grudge and nursing a grievance indeed drains the energy.

I hope I have proved my wife is right.

Cheers.
 
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hi
some are contributors....some are silent readers.....some are new comers......some are leaving....some may leave and come back again.

some are went and came back...........i like to be silent reader...becoz silence is the best policy....no harm to others......

still we are all members of this tamilbrahmins forum.....

regards
tbs
 
Dear Sri.Raju Sir, Greetings.

I refer to your post #18. I am previleged to read such a scholarly message. Thank you sir. The explanation for the Prabandham is just excellent. Thank you!

Sir, you are knowledgable; from your numerous messages, I can see, you are not an hypocrite. Chances are, you may not tolerate hypocrites; quite possibly, your elders might not tolerate hypocrites either. It is quite possible, you did not come across week-end/wannabe brahmins described by Sri.Nara.

Incident #1 - Venue - Rayar Choultry, Kondapalayam (Foot of Sholingar Hills). I was 9 yrs.old. Morning time; I was ready to start to go up the hills (the temple opens only at 0800 Hrs). My grandmother was in the room changing into dry madi saree. In the court yard, a group of Iyengar brahmins, loudly talking in Iyengar Tamizh (I grew up in an Iyengar home too); I was eyeing a teen-ager, all by himself; I was planning to walk up the hill with him. The teen-ager was in long trousers and long sleeved shirt; did not look like a brahmin boy at all; he bought a string of flowers and seperated them by breaking it by rubbing on the floor... and getting ready to start. One of the brahmins just slapped him on his left cheek and accused him of contaminating the flowers by biting the string! (He did not). The teen-ager protested.. more blows for lying! When I tried to say that he did not do it, I was bullied away. About 4 elders ganged up on that teen-ager. (I told my grand mother about this; we found that teen-ager in the temple up the hill and grandmother comforted him).

Incident #2 - Brisbane, Australia. I saw this ultra-orthodox brahmin, very vocal, telling others what to do, directing the Gurukkal how to perform the puja. So, what was my issue? Isuue was, I knew that same person eats cooks chicken at home and have seen him drunk.

Sri.Raju sir, I have never been in a position of influence. As a teen-ager, I was asked to leave from a bhandhi (பந்தி) once just for fun. It is good to know you have not come across show-offs. I have.

Only sincere people like you earn any respect for the Brahmin community. By the way, I will be grouping Sri.Kunjuppu along with you too. Amoung the sincere, respectable week-end wannabe Brahmins, while persons like you make one end of the spectrum, possibly, Sri.Kunjuppus would make the other end. (Sri.Naras are not included in this spectrum though).

I sincerely hope, I explained myself.

Cheers!

hi raghy sir,
i agee with u 100%....brahmin bullying is very common in iyers/iyengars...i had same kind of bully experiences while veda patasala

student as junior student...i was young boy...very weak...respect for elders(its my weakness).....psychological fear...uncertainity of life.

fear of community expulsion.....parents compulsion.....it happened for brahmin boys in veda patashalas.....very bitter/sad experiences.

regards
tbs
 
Dear Mr. Yamaka,



I dont see any mass movement of the sort you are talking about. On the contrary I am able to see a continuous movement in which old wisdom is retained after removing the cobwebs and new wisdom added to the basket. I do not know about the orthodoxy of the religions you are talking about. But I know this much that the so called orthodoxy of Hindu religion is harmless. Harmless because it makes enough provision for the changes brought about by that great alchemist called TIME. There are no fatwas and no one is condemned to be a Tankaiah in the Hindu religion. This is the reason why reformists here find themselves always hovering in the periphery without any say in the matters that are religious.

I note with dismay your prejudice which mixes up superstition with orthodoxy. To that extent your quoted sentence is flawed and is meaningless.

Cheers.

Hello Raju:

I read in the recent news that one techie was strangled and burnt to death in Chennai. His crime was he married a MBBS girl of a different caste. Her father did not like this marriage between two adults and he hired goondas to kidnap and kill this young man.!

I am sure this father is superstitious because his religion taught him so - that's he must not put up with an inter-caste marriage...

This is the orthodoxy I was talking about..

Please do not tell me that fundamentalist Hinduism is harmless... please read about one Swami Aseemananda's confessions to the law enforcement... How is he different from the Talibans and AK47s you are referring to?

Most of the orthodox religious people blame God for their wretched life... the fact is they are totally responsible for the life they have earned... most of them have poor skills and poor behavior, hence they suffer at the bottom of the economic ladder.

This is the orthodoxy I was talking about... here religions have destroyed these people.
 
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Dear Yamaka,

I read in the recent news that one techie was strangled and burnt to death in Chennai. His crime was he married a MBBS girl of a different caste. Her father did not like this marriage between two adults and he hired goondas to kidnap and kill this young man.!
I am sure this father is superstitious because his religion taught him so - that's he must not put up with an inter-caste marriage...
This is the orthodoxy I was talking about..

Orthodoxy and superstition are two different concepts. Those who are orthodox need not be superstitious and those who are superstitious need not be orthodox. You are confused and hence are mixing up these two.

In the case of the Chennai murder that you refer to, the suspect is an Engineer in the Electricity Board who had the benefit of modern education. No orthodoxy tells you to murder your children if they marry against your advice. In the Chennai case it was possessiveness and casteist fervour which are the reason for the crime. Orthodoxy has nothing to do with this. Even the dictionary definition of the word orthodox is - conforming to established doctrine in religion/holding conventional belief.There is no conventional belief/established doctrine that killing is the solution for marrying outside one's caste.If the father of the girl belongs to Hindu religion, he can never claim that the religion required him to commit the crime. So it was the casteist feeling you were talking about and not the orthodoxy nor the religion.

Please do not tell me that fundamentalist Hinduism is harmless... please read about one Swami Aseemananda's confessions to the law enforcement... How is he different from the Talibans and AK47s you are referring to?

I have not read the confessions of that Ananda. But I have heard from friends that it is an unfortunate/illadvised but inevitable political response by some elements in the fringe to the relentless proselytisation pressure piling up on the religion. The AK-47 that I mentioned in my post was just to drive home a point with the help of an imagery.

Most of the orthodox religious people blame God for their wretched life... the fact is they are totally responsible for the life they have earned... most of them have poor skills and poor behavior, hence they suffer at the bottom of the economic ladder.

I am surprised that you say this. Orthodox never blame God for anything. All orthodox are not living a wretched life. Majority of them may be economically poor but are contented. Every one is reposible for what he has and what he does not have. Orthodox are no exception to this general rule. If I notice a certain amount of arrogance and contempt in your observation that most of the orthodox have poor skills, poor behavior suffering at the bottom of the economic ladder I think most of the members here would agree with me. Please keep your prejudices to yourself. Only good possessions are to be flaunted.
 
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