How Varna/Caste System Harmed Brahmins

[KRS]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) WhatsApp Email Share Link

Dear SZri N.R. Ranganathan Ji,

Thank you. From the likes of it, I am at least 10 births before yours. Hopefully we can meet somewhere in our lifetimes, I doubt it though, because of your Purva Punya, I think you will have no more cycles!

Namaskarams,
KRS

Dear Sri KRSji,
Many thanks for your message. It is all purva punya. Many Brahma Gnanis
took me under their umbrella - Bhagawan Ramana, Sathguru Gnanananda,
Kanchi MahaPeriyaval ( these three personally ) and Seshadri Swamigal
and Shirdi Baba. I am still a traveller. Many miles to go sir.....

Sir, you do not have to withdraw your statement at all. Your doubts will
be cleared soon, since, you are, according to me, a genuine seeker of TRUTH.

 

[Saab]

Dear Sri KRS,

Thank you for your detailed explanations. As the discussions expands so are the number of pages of writings! I am just going to touch on a couple of points and leave the rest for you to make up your own mind. Perhaps experience could add to our knowledge.

Lert me also say that the only other person besides you who lived like a person belonging to different religions was the first Parama Hamsa in our tradition.

I think there is a misconception. Each person lives his own life. What I said was I tried to learn Christianity for example from the mindset of a Christian. This enabled me to fully grasp that religion and to know to whom it would appeal. That does not mean that I have become a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim. Neither does it mean that I consider that all religions are equal. I have also said changing a mindset to understand others came from my Sathwa Guna which has the least raagadwesha (not completely devoid of it).

Why each person lives his/her own life? That also I have said before. You are a bhoktha first and karmi next. You have to enjoy and suffer your kharmaphala. That enjoyment and suffering becomes unique to each person according to the gunaadhisayam in him/her. There is a verse in Naaladiyaar which says that the pain of a person being carried on a pallanquin when he does not have a pillow for his back and the pain of a begger who does not have salt for his gruel are both same. In other words, you cannot say that the guy going on the pallnquin is better off than the begger! Also when Appar was subjected to being thrown in the lime kiln, the Jains thought that he was suffering from extreme pain, but Appar was singing his famous Thevaaram "Maasil Veenaiyum.." which clearly showed he was enjoying the Grace of Lord Shiva instead of pain!

The enjoyment and suffering of any one cannot be assessed objectively, there is at best a marginal empathy, because the enjoyment and sufferings are subjective - all in the mind! And that is where your Guna is!

My inclination to follow sanaathana dharma is perhaps despite my study of other religions and the study of other religions only confirmed to me that my spiritual path of Sanathana Dharma is the one best suited to me. I have also stated for the benefit of the readers the reason for my choice viz. that there is a fundamental diffierence between the western religion and sanaathana dharama and I repeat:

"There is an important thing that we have to bear in mind. We Hindus look at the world from the point of view of an eternal individual who keeps reincarnating into this world in different guises according to the endless karmas that he/she has performed. This is our 'home' and we pray for its safety in the famous benediction called 'manthra pushpam' where we repeatedly call out 'aayathanavaan bhavathi' ('aayathanam means abode, so 'aayathanavaan bhavathi' means 'let me be assured of this abode'. The western religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam whose influence pervade our thinking (this is our 'dhOsham'!), looks at the world from the eyes of the individual who is a one time visitor whose permanent abode is either heaven or hell. We, on the other hand, come back to fulfill our unfulfilled ambitions. And then we try something else in eternal pursuit! In Mahabhaaratha the story of 'Sikhandi' tells us the idea of revenge in the mind bringing her back to fight and cause the death of Bheeshma."

Thus the objectives of Eastern and Western religions are diametrically opposite.

ON VARNA:

All varnas are entitled to Self-Realization. In fact everyone is Self-Realized only that most people do not know that! (Bhagavan Ramana)

The four varnas are based on talents on the handling of (a) knowledge, (b) weapons (c) wealth and (d) labour. What drives them is the mindset in each individual which is called the Guna gained by one by his praarabhda. This Guna is either manifest or unmanifest during one's life time again due to his praarabhda. For some this Guna potential is unmanifested or marginally manifested. For others it has a full swing right from the start. For example, if you take the lives of Vaalmiki or Arunagiri or Viswamithra you would see that they showed their guna of birth until they transcended the gunas by Self-Realization.

You do want to tell me that the varna is based on division of labour as per your concept which I have termed as western. To this you have quoted Paramachaaryal as the authority. Yet you would not like to accept Paramacharyal's view that a person is born into a varna is based on karma where a varna is guna based, so I ask you: why quote Paramacharyal partially? If you happen to argue that Paramacharyal repudiated varna is based on Guna then Paramacharyal himself would have come to the same conclusion like you that the varnas are no longer valid. I do not believe Paramacharyal ever made such a declaration which would have been a death-knell to varnasrama dharma.

What drives a person is his guna which is gained as a praarabdha karma mainly to experience his karmaphala and secondarily to manifest his samskaara. What a person experiences is rarely known to others (unless you would get into his mind!) but what is performed by him is taken as the main factor and this is discussed as the basis for judging whether varna is right or not and whether there is guna in birth and so on. You are thus making a choice to keep one and discard another. So be it! Brilliance and excellence in each talent is either exhibited or unexhibited (I call it manifested or unmanifested). There can be no comparison between the exhibited talent of a Sudhra and unexhited talent of a Brahmana.

You have also said that all four varnas have to agree to the varna 'system'. No agreement was needed before and no agreement will ever be needed by anyone for you being who you are whether you are a Brahmana, kshathriya or a vaisya or a sudhra.

Individual is certain. A group is not. It does not mean there is no group only that it is not permanent as the individual. You have to learn to see the individual by himself. Hindus do that.

Just as Bhagavan Ramana were to say: Be yourself, the world will take care of itself!

So much for now.

Regards,
Saab

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Saab Ji,

Regarding your experience with other religions - I am not at all surprised that you would find Hinduism as suitable to yourself. Only a very small percentage of people in this world abandon their birth religion to others. Religion is also intertwined with one's cutural and self identity and as such one would be very comfortable with one's birth religion (my assumption, based on what you have written so far is that you are a Hindu). What the Paramahamsa was able to do however as I understand it, was to use 'siddhi' to experience the 'Truth' taught by different religions. While I understand that you tried to understand other religions from the viewpoint of the adherents, one can not fully grasp the whole meaning of living as an adherent and follower of other religions, unless one was brought up in that religion. This is where the intellectual, spiritual and the emotional all get wound up together to form one's faith.

Yes, Hinduism has all the answers that I need and require. But I can not assume the same thing for a Christian who was brought up as a devout Christian and despite having had some detailed association with Hinduism would find that ours is a better religion (Please read Professor Diana Elk's book on this very topic: A spiritual journey - From Bozeman to Benares). As I also said, our religion is not monolithic - it represents monotheism as well as some of these other religions represent. There is even a concept like one birth only (even though it is not in vogue nowadays).

When I cited Sri Maha Periaval, I knew you would make the statement you just made about me not believing in what Maha Periaval had to say about caste by birth. So, here it goes:

1. I believe that Maha Periaval believed in the caste by birth, not as an end in itself, but for a purpose. And if you pay close attention to various things He says about this subject, you would realize that His main concern is how a child who is very young (seven years old) who has to start on a rigorous path towards a punishing and detailed Vedic training can wait to start that training if the caste is not by birth. As always, Maha Periaval says what He says with logical explanation applied to present life. And so, I agree with Him on this stance.

2. To Him, following the Dharma one is assigned is the ultimate. He says that Varna is for a job (Dharma) and not the other way around. Also, a Brahmin's dharma is the most important glue that holds the society together for the betterment of the whole mankind. This involves the Brahmins going back to performing our daily rituals (Please see 'A day in the life of a Brahmin' in His 'Hindu Dharma') and others will follow suit. He is not talking about a Brahmin of today like me who is abroad and is working in a Vaisya's job. He clearly sees that the society should go back to our pre muslim, pre English days of life when each Varna did their duty. While I agree with the fact that we should all encourage this to happen, I still think that some of us TBs (or most of us), unfortunately are in a situation, such a thing can not happen in a massive way unless other Varnas also accept it.

3. While I regard Maha Periaval as my Guru, I also revere other Hindu giants. And some of them hold a very distinctively different view from our Maha Periaval on the interpretation of caste by birth. They have defined Hinduism in a more 'progressive' manner.

4. So, who is correct? As I said before, both are. Maha Periaval does not deny the fact that He is the protector of the role of Shastras and hence He is conservative, trying to see the future in terms of our society that was in the past. Others take our society today as it is and trying to figure out a new social/religious model for the future.

5. But the catch is this - if we follow Maha Periaval's words then the other view is totally false and the Brahmins have no choice but to leave their current jobs and take up our original Dharma in full force. He clearly states this, going to the extent of saying that He was not interested in the mere survival of a caste called Brahmins, if they just live without their Dharma.

6. In my mind, the solution is two fold. One, we should encourage those Brahmins who are willing to go back, financially supporting them. And if I am not willing to go back, then I should not worry about castes.

By the way, there is no where a connection made between the Varnas, Gunas and Re-incarnation in any of our Srutis that I am aware of. While it is easy to connect a Guna with a Varna at birth and talk about manifest and unmanifest and about Karma Phala, we should always remember that Ishwara is the only one who knows and hands out the manifestations. Identifying a Varna with birth is onething, but to extend it to Guna is quite something else. I wholly reject this connection. Because my observations do not fit in to this theory.

Pranams,
KRS

Thank you for your explanations. When I quoted Maha Periaval's words, I knew that you would

 

[Saab]

Thank you Sri KRS for more clarifications.

Guna causes both your 'experience' (bhOgam) as well as 'your work'(karmam). You continue to say one should only stick to the work. That is regimentation. On the other hand the Hindus exhort people to stick to their Guna which will be 'least' painful. Bhagavat Geetha clearly says that one should stick to his own guna (dharma) however much he can feel adept about those of others. This is the crux of the axiom 'Be Yourself'. So there is no question of making a Vaisya a Kshathriya for example. Actaully Geetha starts of with Sri Krishna deriding Arjuna who wanted to be sanyaasi abandoning his kshathriya dharma born of his guna. You continue to confuse what is done with what makes you do it. I am sorry to say that.

Secondly on the question of training. Training entails the process of manifestation of the unmanifested (what is already in a person). You have to recall here the example of hatching a hicken and hatching a rock that I talked about earlier.

There is this continuous confusion of equating a varna with caste. Our friend Nachinaarkiniyan also fell prey to this confusion when he thought that carpentry is innate in one and not in another. What is divine (varna) and what is human (caste) are two different things.

By the way, there is nowhere a connection made between the Varnas, Gunas and Re-incarnation in any of our Srutis that I am aware of.

You have to approach a Guru to learn these. He alone can break the raagadhwesham in a student. Otherwise you will only reinforce what you already concluded. This forum can never replace a Guru who is Suddha Chaithanyam whereas a forum is not.

Regards,
Saab

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Saab Ji,

My reply is not exactly going to be a point to point reponse to your posting. I have a Guru and He has not given me the knowledge about the secret information you talk about only a Guru can give. I have also talked to numerous enlightened Hindus about Varna, Caste, Aptitude, Genetics, Guna, etc. So, let me again summarize my views, and leave it at that. Seems to me that you have made your mind up on certain views, irrespective of what our scriptures say otherwise. But then, you have every right to do so, but at least I would like you to consider the following:

1. As much as Gita might be interpreted to say that varna is by birth, there is a very well known story about Dharmaputra stating that Varna is by Guna (and explicitly not by birth) in a story of Mahabaratha. Adding to it, various conflicting opinions by a great number of our Hindu luminaries on this question, leads me to believe that this question is not settled and is open to debate.

2. So, then, if one accepte that Varna is by birth, one is faced with the next question: Is Varna created for Dharma or is it the other way around? For this question, I can only find one answer, both from our Srutis, Smritis and our Gurus. All emphatically say that the Varna was created to fulfill a Dharma and not the other way around. What is the implicit impact of this statement? This means that a 'Brahmin' is not a 'Brahmin' unless he fulfills what is his Dharma, irrespective of his birth. Same is true for other three Varnas.

3. Then, this means that unless a 'Brahmin', who is born a 'Brahmin' can not exercise his 'talents' unless he completes all the training prescribed for him and live the life of a 'Brahmin' as prescribed by the Shastras (so that he may make himself pure to be an effective 'Brahmin', which meant that he served the interests of humanity by 'self-negation' (yes, 'self-'negation' in terms of a material world and life), and by this example given the power to keep the society united and move forward as the custodian of the civilization).

4. So, whatever Karmaphalas or Gunas that may be his by birth have no meaning. Because with our 'free will' we are expected to fulfill our Dharma, our mission so to speak, we as present day 'Brahmins', can not and do not fulfill our 'Dharma' as prescribed above. Neither can a person who is not born a Brahmin, but who wants to be fulfilled as a Brahmin.

5. Why? Because the society has changed. I am amused by the statements like 'Varna is God given, but Castes are made by people'. Hello! Maya is also a part of Prakriti! Part of Ishwara! Is it not His leela? Doesn't the 'degeneration' of the society as today foreseen by our Seers in Kaliyuga? Have they not told us that Bhakthi is the most effective path in our times?

6. Coming back to Varna and Guna. This theory that Brahmins are born predominantly 'Sattvic' does not hold water. As I grew up and reflecting on the people I have met then (both Brahmins and Non Brahmins), I can attest that as children there were no discernable differences in gunas between the castes or even religions at all. I only saw the differences in attitudes as we grew up, being taught various different trai ning material. So, this stuff about attributing a particular Gua\na to a particular Varna is bogus. But then if we insist this is not bogus, then this business about saying that Brahmins are by birth is bogus. These are two mutually exclusive things.

7. Varna may be God given. Then let Him come back and resolve this mess. We have a class of people who are called 'Brahmins', and who by rights are supposed to bring welfare and unity to a society, by their intellectual knowledge about Srutis and Smritis, which were supposed to keep the society thriving. And in turn the other three Varnas were supposed to stick to what they were doing and support the Btahmins.

8. Instead what do we find today? Please tell me how can we go back? How can we with a straight face argue that we are the Brahmins of yester age? How can we argue that we have the 'talent' latent in us to be the Brahmins, without considering what our role was defined to be? Is it not crass to claim this supiriority even when we perform our Dharma - which we do not even remotely coming close to today?

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Saab]

Dear Sri KRS,

Thanks again for your reply.

You have said:

I have a Guru and He has not given me the knowledge about the secret information you talk about only a Guru can give.

There is no secret information. Just as what is Gayathri is known to all yet the efficacy of it is when given to a sishya by a Guru, one's knowledge is not the same from self-knowledge and that learnt from a Guru.

If you have a Guru to whom you have explicitly put these questions regarding Guna and you did get answers the way you have described them to us, I have nothing else to say.

Regards,
Saab

 

[KRS]

Thank you Sri Saab Ji for your response. Seems like we agree to disagree on these matters. Hopefully this does not get in the way of our fellowship through the auspecies of this Forum.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Saab]

Dear Sri KRS,

Truth is not what is agreed upon! It is to be realized! Known as Kaivalyam it is far far from the tumult of the seeming multitude. Such realization is the Grace that cannot be obtained without being at the feet of a Guru.

Gurur Brahma, Gurur Vishno Gurur Devo maheswarha. Gurus saakshaath parabrahma, thasmai Sri Gurave namaha!

Have a great day and all the best!

Regards,
Saab

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Saab Ji,

Yes, I agree with you. But the question is what is the 'Truth'? Along with it goes the question, 'Who is a Guru?'. To me a person who does not accept the fact that each one of us in this world as human beings are not 'created' as 'equals' in their rights to maximize their potential to contribute to the current world, is not a real 'Guru'. They sow discord, propagating false theories in the name of unfounded 'Truth', preaching to the gullible, to the utter detriment of the community they are supposed to serve.

I am sorry to say this. Any so called Guru who connects 'Varna' to 'Guna' is a person who has no authority to do so by our Srutis, and who wallows in darkness and thereby pulling his adherents along with him/her to the absolute depths of human experiential nadir.

Pranams,
KRS

Dear Sri KRS,

Truth is not what is agreed upon! It is to be realized! Known as Kaivalyam it is far far from the tumult of the seeming multitude. Such realization is the Grace that cannot be obtained without being at the feet of a Guru.

Gurur Brahma, Gurur Vishno Gurur Devo maheswarha. Gurus saakshaath parabrahma, thasmai Sri Gurave namaha!

Have a great day and all the best!

Regards,
Saab

 

[Saab]

Dear Sri KRS,

But the question is what is the 'Truth'? Along with it goes the question, 'Who is a Guru?'. To me a person who does not accept the fact that each one of us in this world as human beings are not 'created' as 'equals' in their rights to maximize their potential to contribute to the current world, is not a real 'Guru'. They sow discord, propagating false theories in the name of unfounded 'Truth', preaching to the gullible, to the utter detriment of the community they are supposed to serve.

Truth is that which has no opposite. In prakrthi, everything exists as opposites. Without the opposites there is no prakrthi. That which is beyond this prakrthi is the Truth which we call as God. God and prakrthi are not parellels. There is no prakrthi without God, yet God exists absolutely unconnected with prakrthi. There is nothing apart from Him. That is why the Hindu logic of 'A is B but B is not A' is not understood by the westerners.

So when we say that the prakrthi exists because of God, it is based on the
Sruthi pramaanam: "ajaayamaano bhahuthaa vijaayathe", he became many without ever being born! Why do we say that? Because we see that everything is born and yet everything is He! Since everything is nothing but prakrthi which remains as opposites, then the conclusion is: The killer is He and the killed is He too! (Yet none is killed!!) This is in direct opposition to what the western religions believe in.

From this Sruthi pramaanam you can see that whatever you conclude both based on evidence and on inference on what is Truth - as an 'object' - would be proved to be false! The only non-negateable Truth that is left behind would be 'you' - the subject!

A jeeva is afflicted by what is called Panchaklesa. They are avidya, asmitha, raga, dwesha and abnivesha.

* Avidya is also knowledge but false knowledge. How? By knowing something as different from what it is! Knowing a rope as a snake for example.

* Asmitha is ahankara. The idea that everything is related to you. From that you would like to keep what is harmonious with you and avoid or destroy what is not. What you would consider as harmonious at one time would turn into opposite at another and this would make you like to rearrange the world ad infinitum! And pine for that which you have rejected before!

* Raga is your favourite theme!

* Dwesha is the dislike to those that are not the favourite.

* Abnivesha is the sense of rivalry.

These panchaklesa prevents a jeeva from knowing the Truth. It is utterly impossible to give up these panchaklesa on your own. Jeeva is a jeeva because of panchaklesa. You cannot be a jeeva yet give them up. Only a Guru can rob these of you! HE IS A REAL THIRUDAN!!

For example if I hurt your ego you will get angry with me and might even dispose of me as a punishment. But when your Guru tears apart your ego you will weep in ecstacy! You will know your Guru when this occurs to you. So your statement depicting who a Guru is: "To me a person who does not accept...blah, blah,... is not a real 'Guru', "is born of Panchaklesa. One cannot give birth to a Guru and own him as his Guru!"

There is no false Guru, there is only real Guru. No one can be his own Guru.Bhagavan Ramana kept telling everyone that Truth cannot be realized without a Guru. Someone asked him who his Guru was and Bhagavan turned to Arunachala and indicated who his Guru was!

uruvaay aruvaay uLathaay ilathaay,
maruvaay malaraay maNiyaay oLiyaay
karuvaay uyiraay gathiyaay viDhiyaay,
guruvaay varuvaay aruLvaay guhanE

(Kandar Anubhoothi)

Regards,
Saab

 

[malgova.mango]

Brahmasri Saba!

" aho shastram asho shastram
aho guru aho guru
aho gnanam aho gnanam
aho aanandam aho aanandam "

In one film "maya bazar" there is one quote from NTR - "puriyadhavankku sonnalum puriyadhu" at first I was puzzled by this statement - ungalluku puriyartho?

vanakkathudan
malgova.mango

 

[malgova.mango]

Some preceptions

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]My preception, which could be right or wrong ....[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It may disappear in one form only to reappear in another form – A well known principle.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The above can be extended to entire cosmic phenomena's – The Maya shakti cannot be destroyed or created. But she can manifest (shrishti),stay (stithi) and unmanifest (samhara) herself according to causes and conditions. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Day to day experience confirms this , when we wake up in the morning, our consciousness which is ever present awoke to awareness, it stays aware for a period of time and awareness get dissolved in sleep. Dream is explained as a state where the bodily awareness cease but the awareness of mind is functioning. (A good book is Swami Sivananda's “kanavugalin thathuvam” TAMIL)[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]So if creation could be understood as manifestation of an existing phenomena we could then reason many hidden realities. For example, re-birth could be understood applying the same reasoning as above. Thiruvalluvar confirms in his Kural “URNGUVATHU POL SAKKADU, EZHUVATHU POLL MARU PIRRAPU” (something to this extent)[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The manifest qualities of all that exists, vary in bewildering multitudes. “Binani ruchi loka” as the saying goes . “Variety is the spice of life.” add this one too.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As Brahmasri Saba, pointed that “jivas” affected with klesas or doshas obstructing their path to gain true knowledge of Self. Here he termed klesas in a broad sense, but klesas (papa and punyas) are also in multitudes of variety.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The role of Dharma is to make a “jiva” mature enough to take him to next stage. Here “jiva” is not only humans but all the varieties of life-forms. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The purifications for each of them also varies. This is what the views of our shastras, that is why Jati bedhams are to be respected. Only by observing one's Sva-Dharma even though that may be not to one's liking he can mature gradually to assimilate the Truth. If one belongs to 4th varna but dutifully does his sva-dharma then he is a follower of “Arya-Dharma” - Higher order. In the same vein if one by birth belongs to 1st varna but ignores is sva-dharma then he not a follower of Higher order.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]To unshackle from the “likes and dislikes” we have to obey the command of Veda shastra. No other way.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We can't get away from the shackles of our “likes and dislikes” by following our likes. Can we?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Even if we couldn't follow by the letters of Veda shastra, owing to times, we should at least have a longing in our heart to understand and appreciate.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Finally.. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]God created all equal, is too simplistic a view. An utopian view. Only can be admired but of no practical value. Many poets, like Bharatiyar ,Walt Whitman are very good at this. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And in the name of contribution only exploitation is happening now. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Again to repeat, the above are my preception which may be right or wrong.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I welcome healthy discussion over arguments and mud-slinging. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Malgova.mango[/FONT]

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

How varna/caste system harmed Brahmins

Dear sri KRSji and sri Saabji,
In my humble opinion, what sri Saabji has in mind is the gist of the
following sloka occuring in Svetasvathara upanishad :

yasya deve paraabakthir-yatha deve thatha gurau
thasyaithe kathithaahyarththaa; prakaasanthe mahaathmanaha;

This sloka is also found in Guru Gita.

I will put it in Tamil:
யஸ்ய தேவே பராபக்திர்- யதா தேவே ததா குரௌ
தஸ்யைதே கதிதாஹ்யர்த்தா; ப்ரகாசந்தே மஹாத்மந ;

If you have Iswara bhakthi , and Guru bakthi also to the same extent,
the Guru will reveal the true purport of the teachings. Here the true or
inner meaning referred to does not mean what we understand at the
intellectual level.

There are two types of Jnana. One is paroksham and the other is
aparoksham. What we read, learn and understand is paroksham; what
we experience is aparoksham. தமிழில், கேள்வி அறிவு பரோக்ஷம்;
அநுபவ அறிவு அபரோக்ஷம். The later is known as 'swanubhuthi'
or 'aparokshanubhuthi'. You can take the meaning of 'prakaasanthe'
as enlightenment.

Only a Guru can give the disciple such an enlightenment. The disciple
not only understands the true meaning but also experiences it.

 

[Saab]

Dear Friends,

Let me move away from engaging Sri KRS and contribute something from a different angle. I am giving below an email I received from a friend of mine.

"Below is an interview with lawyer K.M Vijayan, who has fought court cases against Reservations. Person interviewing him is N.Murugan who is a retired IAS officer. Though there is lot of unacceptable points given by N. Murugan, one thing that is very interesting how he holds the conduct of the Brahmins, how mature they are etc.
http://indiainteracts.com/videos/2007/04/10/Mr-KM-Vijayans-Remarks-On-Reservation-Part--2/

It shows how other Jathi(s) view Brahmins. They expect the Brahmins to have good conduct, good words etc. Even today, people expect the Brahmin to be of sterling character & be a standard & example for others.

Even if it doesn’t make change now, this might be useful for Sociological studies."

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Saab Ji, Sri N.R. Ranaganathan Ji and Sri malgova.mango Ji,

Thank you for your responses. I am quite aware of the 'awakening' that a Guru induces. That is not the issue.

My issue goes to the root of the Varna system and more specifically the connection between a Guna and the Varna connection from this life time to the next.

Please refer to the attached as the best explanation of Dharmas required of a person, that I have also been taught:

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1995/6/1995-6-12.shtml

Sva Dharma is always a requirement of those possessing a certain Sva Bhava. It is not the other way around. In other words, A Brahmin is known by what he does. A Brahmin who does not follow his Dharma is not a Brahmin. (These are provable statements, based on our Srutis as well as from the words of our Luminaries).

So, what is a Sva Bhava for a Brhamin? It is more than just a preponderance of Sattvic Guna. It is acheived by a long and rigorous training to kill the ego, and living the life of a Brahmin, on top of having a Sattvic nature. This allows a Brahmin to dedicate his life in the pursuit of knowledge and the performance of vedic rites for the sake of the society with effect. If he has not become a Brahmin by his Sva Bhave, he would not be able to do this. And his Sva Bhava is not inherited, but obtained.

So, what is the Sva Bhava of a Kshatriya? It is more than a predominance of Rajasic Guna. It is acheived through rigorous traing in war craft and state craft. As rigorous as the Brahminical class. Again, a Kshatriya is not born but made.

While from the historical perspective I agree that Varna and later Jathis became occupations by birth (there were no Universities and Colleges then, and so it became perhaps easier to pass down one's occupation to one's children).

But in today's context, what is Sva Bhava? What is Sva Dharma?

How can we get back to the old Varna system in today's context? All of you who say that Varna system is God given, please give us a clear path as to how as a democratic and secular society we can go back to the old system?

In today's context, in terms of modern systems of governance and society, we say a 'all persons are born equal'; not to dismiss the disparity of talent among them, but to acknowledge the equality of rights of each human being under the modern system to be allowed to do whatever he/she wants to accomplish in life under the set up of the modern democratic, free enterprise system.

This system, unfortunately is here to stay. This is a fairly cruel system, punishing a person's lack of understanding of his/her own talents over time, in the secular market place. There is competition, but at the same time it encourages innovation and entrepreneurship which are the backbones of today's economy and creation of wealth for all.

This is the way our world is going. This is what was predicted to happen in our Yuga.

So, please tell me. How do you propose that we get back to a pure 'Varna' system as envisioned (mostly by our Smrithis) from today's life? Please give us a glimpse of life that would be led by each Varna, and please let me also understand how you would deal with the 'fifth' Varna? What about people from other religions who form almost 20% (about 200 million) of modern India? Where will they fit in this 'Varna' system?

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Saab]

Dear Sri KRS,

Unfortunately you continue to ignore what we told you and keep harping on what you say. Even the article from Hinduism Today clearly tells you: "Each human being has an individual, personal dharma. This dharma is determined by two things: the karmas, both good and bad, from past lives; and the three dharmas of this life-universal, human and social. Svadharma, "one's own law," is molded by our background and experiences, tendencies and desires-indicated by astrology-all of which determine our personality,..". As opposed to this you claim: "So, what is a Sva Bhava for a Brhamin? It is more than just a preponderance of Sattvic Guna. It is acheived by a long and rigorous training.."

And then you continue saying:"we say 'all persons are born equal'.." In the earlier posting you have said "To me a person who does not accept the fact that each one of us in this world as human beings are not 'created' as 'equals' in their rights to maximize their potential to contribute to the current world, is not a real 'Guru'." This is completely and utterly un-Hindu concept. Hindus do not say that a jeeva was ever created, let alone 'equally' whatever that means. The word 'equal' would have any meaning only when it is equal in all respects. In other words, it must be identical. Such is not the case and the foreign religions have their face covered with mud on this issue.

Anyway you are unwilling to part with your favourite theme, ignoring the fact that its basis is in the klesa that can be removed only by the Grace of the Guru whom you have ardently denounced. All you want us to do is to agree with you. Thus we are in a vicious circle. We Hindus have a word for this terrible unwillingness to part with ignorance. It is called 'aparaadham'. In Tripura Rahasya there is a story at the end of which the author concludes that even Easwara with all his powers is incapable of changing an aparaadhi. The story of Nakkeeran also highlights this.

So my dear friend, enjoy your life the way you want! I have nothing more to say to you!

Regards,
Saab

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Dear Sri Saab Ji, Sri N.R. Ranaganathan Ji and Sri malgova.mango Ji,

Thank you for your responses. I am quite aware of the 'awakening' that a Guru induces. That is not the issue.

My issue goes to the root of the Varna system and more specifically the connection between a Guna and the Varna connection from this life time to the next.

Please refer to the attached as the best explanation of Dharmas required of a person, that I have also been taught:

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1995/6/1995-6-12.shtml

Sva Dharma is always a requirement of those possessing a certain Sva Bhava. It is not the other way around. In other words, A Brahmin is known by what he does. A Brahmin who does not follow his Dharma is not a Brahmin. (These are provable statements, based on our Srutis as well as from the words of our Luminaries).

So, what is a Sva Bhava for a Brhamin? It is more than just a preponderance of Sattvic Guna. It is acheived by a long and rigorous training to kill the ego, and living the life of a Brahmin, on top of having a Sattvic nature. This allows a Brahmin to dedicate his life in the pursuit of knowledge and the performance of vedic rites for the sake of the society with effect. If he has not become a Brahmin by his Sva Bhave, he would not be able to do this. And his Sva Bhava is not inherited, but obtained.

So, what is the Sva Bhava of a Kshatriya? It is more than a predominance of Rajasic Guna. It is acheived through rigorous traing in war craft and state craft. As rigorous as the Brahminical class. Again, a Kshatriya is not born but made.

While from the historical perspective I agree that Varna and later Jathis became occupations by birth (there were no Universities and Colleges then, and so it became perhaps easier to pass down one's occupation to one's children).

But in today's context, what is Sva Bhava? What is Sva Dharma?

How can we get back to the old Varna system in today's context? All of you who say that Varna system is God given, please give us a clear path as to how as a democratic and secular society we can go back to the old system?

In today's context, in terms of modern systems of governance and society, we say a 'all persons are born equal'; not to dismiss the disparity of talent among them, but to acknowledge the equality of rights of each human being under the modern system to be allowed to do whatever he/she wants to accomplish in life under the set up of the modern democratic, free enterprise system.

This system, unfortunately is here to stay. This is a fairly cruel system, punishing a person's lack of understanding of his/her own talents over time, in the secular market place. There is competition, but at the same time it encourages innovation and entrepreneurship which are the backbones of today's economy and creation of wealth for all.

This is the way our world is going. This is what was predicted to happen in our Yuga.

So, please tell me. How do you propose that we get back to a pure 'Varna' system as envisioned (mostly by our Smrithis) from today's life? Please give us a glimpse of life that would be led by each Varna, and please let me also understand how you would deal with the 'fifth' Varna? What about people from other religions who form almost 20% (about 200 million) of modern India? Where will they fit in this 'Varna' system?

Pranams,
KRS

I do not think we can ever go back to the atrocious and repugnant system of Varna Dharma which had ruined Hinduism and India. Dharma Sasthras are law books which were written at different periods of time. They were suited to the times they were written in. They are history now.

The questions you had raised will never be answered point by point by the proponents of the Varna system, because there are no answers.

We are living in modern times and will have to adapt ourselves to the changing times. The Tamil Brahmins has been able to adapt themselves better than any other community in India. That is why there are no rickshaw pullers and scavengers like other Brahmin communities. Those are the people who still believe in the varna system.

It is simple. Adapt or perish. Some individuals might prefer to perish. But not the Tamil Brahmin community. We broke the injunction in the Manu Smirithi which expressly forbade all Brahmins from leaving Arya Varta. The die was cast thousands of years back when we left Arya Varta to come down to south of Vindyas. We chose our own way. Of course it is another matter that we wrote another Smirti in which such an injunction was not there. We have always adapted to changing circumstances.

 

[Saab]

Dear Nachinanrkiniyan,

Please do not think you have the right to speak for all the Tamil Brahmins. Some of you have views that are born of the vortex of time and conclusions of your likings. Your idea of who a Tamil Brahmin is a sort of western 'socialogical' view. It has no sync with Hinduism. Hinduism is Sanathana Dharma - the eternal order and not a pachondhi religion.

Thanks for changing your view 'to reply only when asked' to volunteer to comment. Perhaps it was irresistible to condemn Hinduism while posing as a Hindu!

Regards,
Saab

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Dear Nachinanrkiniyan,

Please do not think you have the right to speak for all the Tamil Brahmins. Some of you have views that are born of the vortex of time and conclusions of your likings. Your idea of who a Tamil Brahmin is a sort of western 'socialogical' view. It has no sync with Hinduism. Hinduism is Sanathana Dharma - the eternal order and not a pachondhi religion.

Thanks for changing your view 'to reply only when asked' to volunteer to comment. Perhaps it was irresistible to condemn Hinduism while posing as a Hindu!

Regards,
Saab

Your definition of Hinduism is only Varna Dharma. Your definition of Sanathana Dharma is again
only Varna Dharma. According to you Varna Dhrama is the be all and end all of Hinduism. I
definitely condemn this narrow definition of Hinduism.

My Hinduism consists of the knowledge revealed in the Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas, Itihasas,
Agamas, Tantras and ever so many holy scriptures.

Popularly known as Hinduism, Sanathana Dharma is the oldest surviving and continuously
practiced religious tradition in the world.

While it is true that there have been many changes and adaptations to Sanatana Dharma over the
millennia, this is due to the very nature of Hinduism. It is a dynamic, living, growing,
developing way of life. Unlike the so-called "historical religions" (i.e., Judaism,
Christianity and Islam), this religion is not based on one person's view, or upon the beliefs
of one particular age of history that demands to be continued without change forever. The very
life-blood of Hinduism is it's tolerance, acceptance, and it's ability to adapt to the needs of
the people who follow it.

I definitely represent an overwhelming majority of Tamil Brahmins.

 

[Saab]

Dear Nachinarkinian,

The majority of those who contributed to the discussion in this thread have not agreed with you. So please don't try to isolate me. You have said: "The very life-blood of Hinduism is it's tolerance,.." Please practice this before you preach and before you condemn others and their practices.

All those good things that you have said of Hinduism has not been disowned by me! You make it look like so. Please don't do it.

Regards,
Saab

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Saab Ji,

I thought I was the one who said above that we agree to disagree and you re-started the conversation.

I had no inclination to continue but you wanted to have your last say.

It is very easy to trash other religions, even other Hindus as non-hindus, when there are no answers to specific questions! I believe that I am not the one who needs my ignorance lifted, regarding this issue.

Again, I am afraid, you will never understand the concept of 'equal chance' for everyone in the modern world to qualify for a secular job.

Pranams,
KRS

Dear Sri KRS,

Unfortunately you continue to ignore what we told you and keep harping on what you say. Even the article from Hinduism Today clearly tells you: "Each human being has an individual, personal dharma. This dharma is determined by two things: the karmas, both good and bad, from past lives; and the three dharmas of this life-universal, human and social. Svadharma, "one's own law," is molded by our background and experiences, tendencies and desires-indicated by astrology-all of which determine our personality,..". As opposed to this you claim: "So, what is a Sva Bhava for a Brhamin? It is more than just a preponderance of Sattvic Guna. It is acheived by a long and rigorous training.."

And then you continue saying:"we say 'all persons are born equal'.." In the earlier posting you have said "To me a person who does not accept the fact that each one of us in this world as human beings are not 'created' as 'equals' in their rights to maximize their potential to contribute to the current world, is not a real 'Guru'." This is completely and utterly un-Hindu concept. Hindus do not say that a jeeva was ever created, let alone 'equally' whatever that means. The word 'equal' would have any meaning only when it is equal in all respects. In other words, it must be identical. Such is not the case and the foreign religions have their face covered with mud on this issue.

Anyway you are unwilling to part with your favourite theme, ignoring the fact that its basis is in the klesa that can be removed only by the Grace of the Guru whom you have ardently denounced. All you want us to do is to agree with you. Thus we are in a vicious circle. We Hindus have a word for this terrible unwillingness to part with ignorance. It is called 'aparaadham'. In Tripura Rahasya there is a story at the end of which the author concludes that even Easwara with all his powers is incapable of changing an aparaadhi. The story of Nakkeeran also highlights this.

So my dear friend, enjoy your life the way you want! I have nothing more to say to you!

Regards,
Saab

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Saab Ji,

Unfortunately, this thread was authored by Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji and so he has every right to respond to my posting. I appreciate his thoughts.

By the way, why would you say that he is posing as a 'Hindu'? This type of condemnation, just because one is espousing what is definitely an argued and not a settled topic? This type of name calling is unfortunate.

And what is this thing about 'western' concepts? This type of hating anything western is not helpful in dealing with the modern day issues. If the 'westerners' are so close minded, we would not have all the beautiful Hindu temples we are building in the west, 'yoga' would not be a commonly understood word, let alone practiced, not would we have the current Nobel Prize winning debate over the climate change. The so called 'west' is adopting more and more of what our religion has long said. The world is slowly but surely is transforming, and it is a two way street.

Please do not personalize this issue out of anger.

Pranams,
KRS

Dear Nachinanrkiniyan,

Please do not think you have the right to speak for all the Tamil Brahmins. Some of you have views that are born of the vortex of time and conclusions of your likings. Your idea of who a Tamil Brahmin is a sort of western 'socialogical' view. It has no sync with Hinduism. Hinduism is Sanathana Dharma - the eternal order and not a pachondhi religion.

Thanks for changing your view 'to reply only when asked' to volunteer to comment. Perhaps it was irresistible to condemn Hinduism while posing as a Hindu!

Regards,
Saab

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Dear Nachinarkinian,

The majority of those who contributed to the discussion in this thread have not agreed with you. So please don't try to isolate me. You have said: "The very life-blood of Hinduism is it's tolerance,.." Please practice this before you preach and before you condemn others and their practices.

All those good things that you have said of Hinduism has not been disowned by me! You make it look like so. Please don't do it.

Regards,
Saab

This forum has been viewed more than 1000 times. So we can safely assume that at least 300 people have viewed it. The posts which have criticized my views are by 2 or 3 persons. The overwhelming silent majority have not posted. So I assume that the silent majority have not disagreed with me. That is a very encouraging response.

I have not condemned any practices. The practice of religion is a private affair. I have only condemned and will continue to condemn the evil caste system as a curse on Hinduism. Nothing personal about that.

 

[malgova.mango]

More preceptions.........

Dear KSR.

Just my preceptions, may be right or wrong.

So, what is the Sva Bhava of a Kshatriya? It is more than a predominance of Rajasic Guna. It is acheived through rigorous traing in war craft and state craft. As rigorous as the Brahminical class. Again, a Kshatriya is not born but made.

To me it is both, unmanifest qualities are waiting to be manifested, but ofcourse upon right conditions.
Both the seed and the environments are necessary for the ripening to happen. Both factors are mutually inclusive and not otherwise..

While from the historical perspective I agree that Varna and later Jathis became occupations by birth (there were no Universities and Colleges then, and so it became perhaps easier to pass down one's occupation to one's children).

Appaadi! atleast to this extent you could accept.
But the first sentence "Varna and later Jathis" how you arrive at this ? Just in a light vein.

But in today's context, what is Sva Bhava? What is Sva Dharma?

Both are interwined.

How can we get back to the old Varna system in today's context? All of you who say that Varna system is God given, please give us a clear path as to how as a democratic and secular society we can go back to the old system?

It is not completely de-railed, still jathi system is in place. There are vedic and agama schools under this system albeit in a very tight situations.
What needed is recognition of the importance of vedic propogation for world welfare.
The prayers in the Vedas are to be recited over and over by as many brahmins as possible for the welfare of the world.- just some sincere commitment to this will turn the table.
Our dharma stands on the tripod , Shruti,Puranas and Smiritis so even though we couldn't reconcile on what is stated, we don't have the authority to dismiss one or the other. (Maha preiva's -In the book "The Vedas" emphasis the holy trinity of the three scriptures.)

What is first needed is the heartware. Then all the otherwares will resolve by itself.

In today's context, in terms of modern systems of governance and society, we say a 'all persons are born equal'; not to dismiss the disparity of talent among them, but to acknowledge the equality of rights of each human being under the modern system to be allowed to do whatever he/she wants to accomplish in life under the set up of the modern democratic, free enterprise system.

One's freewill is as effective as one's maturity, his emotional order.

We don't give a child to exercise his/her freewill, there are lot of disciplines we instill, not to arrest the child, but to shape his/her and this continues until certain age he/she grows up to understand what is to be practiced and what is to be not.

So the Vedamada without showing any partiallity to her children instills discipline according to their needs. So that they find everlasting fulfillment.

Unbridled Ichha shakti is similar to "Matham konda kalliru (elephant in heat) ".

If one run life after life feeding one's desires, he will never mature.

This system, unfortunately is here to stay. This is a fairly cruel system, punishing a person's lack of understanding of his/her own talents over time, in the secular market place. There is competition, but at the same time it encourages innovation and entrepreneurship which are the backbones of today's economy and creation of wealth for all.

Creation of wealth for all? common don't joke.

This is the way our world is going. This is what was predicted to happen in our Yuga.

Is this a statement in a sense of resignment? if so don't worry, be comforted by Tennysons saying "More things are brought by prayers, than the humans dream of" (something to this extent).

So, please tell me. How do you propose that we get back to a pure 'Varna' system as envisioned (mostly by our Smrithis) from today's life? Please give us a glimpse of life that would be led by each Varna, and please let me also understand how you would deal with the 'fifth' Varna? ?

What is first needed is the heartware. Then all the otherwares will resolve by itself.

What about people from other religions who form almost 20% (about 200 million) of modern India? Where will they fit in this 'Varna' system?

Now we first put our effort to save our "Dharma", then we will worry about others.

On secularism - broad notion , I just address one point here.

If doing away with religion is secularism, then secularism has no place in our culture, for our culture sees every act is connected to God. So how one can separate state and religion? A blunder to our culture.


Just my preceptions, I may be right or wrong.

vanakkathudan
malgova.mango

 

[vanam9394]

We should rename "BRAHMINS" to "BADMINS". The most crooked people in the world are brahmins of Tamil Nadu. They have such hatred among themselves and they try to pull others legs to get ahead. There is no need for DMK people to eliminate brahmins because brahmins will destroy themselves eventually.