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How Varna/Caste System Harmed Brahmins

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saab - varna - guna


Dear Saab,

Nowhere ‘t ‘s told a Brahmin by birth is above all GUNAAS

He must make use of this birth 2 rise above all GUNAAS

“ GUNA ATHEETHAH BHAVA ARJUNA !!” - Geetha

Varna – Aashrama system helps one to become “GUNAATHEETHA”

Generally SATHVA GUNA is predominant in a Brahmin

Even now our community is tolerating all sorts of indiscrimination
& abuses

Thanks & regards,
R.DEVARAJAN

 
Dear Suresh,

What is 'guna' according to your understanding, what is guna 'based' human means and why a Brahmin IS or IS NOT 'guna' based?

Regards,
saab

Hi Saab,

Let's approach this differently, if you don't mind. The person making the claim that "Brahmin" is guna based must substantiate his claim with facts. Not the other way around. Why? Because people who say "brahmin" is birth-based, they have ALL THE FACTS on their side, not the least of which are historical.

From Satya Yuga to Kali Yuga, it's been birth based. People were just born into castes. It's not like they chose to be Brahmin or Kshatriya or whatever, according to their gunas. History establishes this very clearly.

Now comes the clincher. If you argue that Vedic Scriptures say brahmin (or caste in general) is guna-based, and hindus haven't been following it correctly, that they've corrupted the real Varnaashrama Dharma, does it mean every single soul from satya yuga to kali yuga has been bereft of vedic knowledge, considering they all practiced birth-based system? Are we so arrogant that we claim to know scriptures better than the people living in satya yuga?

Let's grant that also. When you say Lord Krishna declares caste is guna based, did you or anyone else here EVEN THINK of the background of MB? People like Arjuna, Bhishma etc. were "born" into Kshatriya castes, they did not choose it based on their guna. I can point to several instances, but the point is the same. Even during Krishna's time, or way before his time, or after thousands of years, things have been the same. So wouldn't it be unreasonable to reason that caste is guna based, and it's been corrupted to become birth based in recent times?

If in recent times, when did this alleged corruption take place? Never is the answer, because history conclusively shows that whether you consider the last 1000 years of Indian history, or 5k years or even previous yugas, birth-based caste system was practiced, there's simply no evidence of guna-based caste system.

If one says even though birth-based system was followed forever, it doesn't make it right, fine, it's tantamount to saying all our ancestors, including the rishis, sages, devas, maharajas, Lord himself, were all blindly following a twisted version of varnaashrama dharma. That being the case, 'why follow Hinduism at all?' would be the new, and perhaps, a more perturbing question.
 
In other words, when the scriptures say a Brahmin has to have satva guna, it means a person born into brahmana varna has to have satva guna. If it's guna-based, then it would be redundant to say that the Brahmin must have satva guna!
 
Dear Nachinarkineyan


Your assumptiions are mis-leading. Rishis have not developed any system. They system is revealed to them. Time and again I 've repeated this . As the saying goes “Muthal konal murrum konal” one wrong view then one's whole understanding goes wrong.


Their pursuit for knowledge is very intense and they want to see the order of things as it is.


That's why they are called “SEERS” (Mantra Dhrishta)


That's why we are called the followers of SANANTANA DHARMA (EVER PRESENT ORDER).


The intelligence prevading the universe is revealed to them WHY because they pursued it.


The very sanskrit alphabets are enough to tell that the akshara's are not from ordinary human intelligence but of Ishvara's.


The misunderstandiing that the caste system is created for convinence and brahmins benefitted is very erroneous. In fact, our forefathers took exterme austerities and avoid indulgence they clearly showed us what is important to pursue.


Many of them lived a simple life not because of circumstances but by choice, They clearly saw the pursuit of artha and kama alone should not dominate one's life. They showed us discipline (aacharam) is more important and set forth various samskaras. They also showed us upto what extent one should pursue for artha and kama . That's why we have Artha shastra and Kama sutra – isn't it?


To say women should not read sanskrit and all is not as per vedic spirit. There may be breaches but it is not the spirit.


That's why for learning we go to godesses “Sarasvathi” . The seers are not only Males but also FEMALES. There are number of (“mantra drishta” in female also) . That we put down female is very absurd. Infact Mami's have more of a say than Mama's is it not true?




The fittest will survive , why then only we strive.


But remember the intention of shastras is to set what is proper for a peaceful existence.


On heredity, “appankku pillai thappama piranthirukkiran” is the general rule. There may be exceptions. It is easy to pick up the necessary skill from a family than to go and learn something new. This is how it was for hundreds of year that is the norm. This modern education is only a new concept in practice for 50 or more years.


A fisherman son even though he goes to school he is expected to do what for his livelihood .
A buisnessman son even though he goes to school he is expected to do what for his livelihood?
What is proper here? Could you please explain.


Malgova.mango



I find that there are several unjustified claims, prejudiced and illogical statements made in this post.

I cannot imagine something being revealed to a human being in a way other than thought. The seers could have been visionaries, who discovered certain principles which they felt could be used to leverage a notion of a class system which they felt could benefit society by dividing tasks - essentially a system of division of labour. Then, as now, the brahmins were rarefied and the workers were plenty. Naturally this is to keep the integrity of the group intact, as a whole. Most of these things about the caste system are logical at some level, but have, because of other influences, "corrupted" into a system of hierarchy which breeds hatred into people.

The wisdom of one generation is never the wisdom of the next. One has to change gears, move in a different direction, when confronted with difference of opinion, when confronted with crises. The Indian caste system has merely had all levels of people impose hegemony on people of other classes, and fear, self-doubt and communal regard have created generations of people who have these influences bred into them.

It is futile to make statements like a fisherman's son should be a fisherman, when it is clear that the innate ability in every human being can be harnessed to do much more than that.

And, there is nothing that is "proper". It only seems that way because we are used to nothing else. Things are as they are, it is we who do not change quickly enough to understand things.
 
Hi Saab,

Let's approach this differently, if you don't mind. The person making the claim that "Brahmin" is guna based must substantiate his claim with facts. Not the other way around. Why? Because people who say "brahmin" is birth-based, they have ALL THE FACTS on their side, not the least of which are historical.

From Satya Yuga to Kali Yuga, it's been birth based. People were just born into castes. It's not like they chose to be Brahmin or Kshatriya or whatever, according to their gunas. History establishes this very clearly.

Now comes the clincher. If you argue that Vedic Scriptures say brahmin (or caste in general) is guna-based, and hindus haven't been following it correctly, that they've corrupted the real Varnaashrama Dharma, does it mean every single soul from satya yuga to kali yuga has been bereft of vedic knowledge, considering they all practiced birth-based system? Are we so arrogant that we claim to know scriptures better than the people living in satya yuga?

Let's grant that also. When you say Lord Krishna declares caste is guna based, did you or anyone else here EVEN THINK of the background of MB? People like Arjuna, Bhishma etc. were "born" into Kshatriya castes, they did not choose it based on their guna. I can point to several instances, but the point is the same. Even during Krishna's time, or way before his time, or after thousands of years, things have been the same. So wouldn't it be unreasonable to reason that caste is guna based, and it's been corrupted to become birth based in recent times?

If in recent times, when did this alleged corruption take place? Never is the answer, because history conclusively shows that whether you consider the last 1000 years of Indian history, or 5k years or even previous yugas, birth-based caste system was practiced, there's simply no evidence of guna-based caste system.

If one says even though birth-based system was followed forever, it doesn't make it right, fine, it's tantamount to saying all our ancestors, including the rishis, sages, devas, maharajas, Lord himself, were all blindly following a twisted version of varnaashrama dharma. That being the case, 'why follow Hinduism at all?' would be the new, and perhaps, a more perturbing question.




"History establishes this very clearly."

History in India is not merely history, it is legend. All legends have the capability to be euphemisms, metaphors or complete fabrications.

The innate ability in all humans exists to learn anything, be it fishing or farming or the scriptures. It is plausible that despite a hereditary tradition not being present, children could be taught how to learn the scriptures from a very early age, and in time, become proficient at it. Their abilities would vary from child to child, but it could be done. I see no reason why generations should be denied the Vedas because of this.

I propose that guna and heredity are related. Gunas of parents can influence both the genetic makeup and the upbringing of their offspring, and this is a necessary part of all evolution - one's environment contributes to one's nature. Take the case of the stick insect, for instance. The stick insect has evolved into its current form because generations of stick insects found it profitable to camouflages itself in between the barks of trees and on leaves. Evolution is fascinating in its ability to have environmental factors influence the characteristics. Human evolution has surely been influenced by the environmental factors we have faced over the years, and brahmins are no exception.
 
Dear tech sir,

I read your statement which I quote:
The innate ability in all humans exists to learn anything, be it fishing or farming or the scriptures. It is plausible that despite a hereditary tradition not being present, children could be taught how to learn the scriptures from a very early age, and in time, become proficient at it. Their abilities would vary from child to child, but it could be done.
This is perhaps 'ideal' than a proven statement. There is something called inclination that makes you and me and everyone else to like something and hate something else and be indifferent to many others. This perhaps is the real tendency that makes each one different if not unique.

You might want to try coaching someone some trade or art or literature or even Veda but it might so happen that those who learn them had the ability in themselves by virtue of their inclination or tendency. You should also not rule out that however much you might try, some would never learn what you teach. In Prakrthi there has to be opposites as otherwise the Prakrthi would collapse. Humans (as real Prakrthis!) are not exempt. Even in this forum we see people endlessly differ and even get angry at each other and some want to even gang up. All because of inclination. This tendency is perhaps god given and you might even want to call it 'guna'.

One of the principles of 'democracy' is the recognition that people tend to differ and the expediency is to resolve by letting the majority have it. Of course the basic factor of likes and dislikes make people to use whatever means to achieve their goal. In most cases might becomes right and not the other way round. So much so the weak could be the majority but the strong always rules. Thus the spirit of democracy is vitiated. If anyone thinks that democracy is the best should know its pitfalls.

Just crossed my mind.

saab
 
Dear tech sir,

I read your statement which I quote:
This is perhaps 'ideal' than a proven statement. There is something called inclination that makes you and me and everyone else to like something and hate something else and be indifferent to many others. This perhaps is the real tendency that makes each one different if not unique.

You might want to try coaching someone some trade or art or literature or even Veda but it might so happen that those who learn them had the ability in themselves by virtue of their inclination or tendency. You should also not rule out that however much you might try, some would never learn what you teach. In Prakrthi there has to be opposites as otherwise the Prakrthi would collapse. Humans (as real Prakrthis!) are not exempt. Even in this forum we see people endlessly differ and even get angry at each other and some want to even gang up. All because of inclination. This tendency is perhaps god given and you might even want to call it 'guna'.

One of the principles of 'democracy' is the recognition that people tend to differ and the expediency is to resolve by letting the majority have it. Of course the basic factor of likes and dislikes make people to use whatever means to achieve their goal. In most cases might becomes right and not the other way round. So much so the weak could be the majority but the strong always rules. Thus the spirit of democracy is vitiated. If anyone thinks that democracy is the best should know its pitfalls.

Just crossed my mind.

saab

How is inclination generated within oneself? Are our brains a "clean slate" on which the writing of our experiences fashions our thinking?

Assuming that our minds are not a clean slate - that is, we come with tendencies and characteristics, is a valid assumption, justified by the uniqueness of our appearance and early ability when given similar stimuli. This means that we will have people with different traits and different abilities. I agree with that. In that sense, yes, I was being idealistic.

But, I was not speaking of merely one generation of people. I was speaking of subsequent generations of people with similar coaching, training, all from an established precinct.

Often, such influences are never the "trickle down" kind of influences. They aren't driven from the top-down a great deal. Sure, there is some initial effect of someone setting up a system, but they are more the kind where a method and a way of life evolve over time, depending on the success of the people who implement it.

There were marvelous strides in the mathematics of Diophantine equations by Indian mathematicians long before the western world had even contemplated the concept of equations and when Rome was grappling with the concept of the zero. These strides in thinking came about by an organized combination of language, intellect and most of all, discipline. This discipline was not necessarily handed over from generation to generation, and such inquiry did not necessarily lead to greater scientific strides. There is something about the temper of the society one is in, which influences the success of such strides a great deal.

I say this because it is not merely innate ability and inclination, but also the very important discipline which a system imposes on people. This discipine helps organize knowledge and makes it accessible to people on a common platform. A method of enforcing discipline in learning is routine, another is poetry. Poetry has the advantage of two layers of abstraction - sound and words. One can survive because of the other. A great deal of discipline is required to learn poetry by heart, but it is not impossible, for anyone. There will be variations between different people who try it, and there will be differing levels of success to which they will capture the essence of the poem. But if a system is sufficiently well established, it is possible to teach poetry to people who haven't learnt poetry in their lives ever.

I mean that the same analogy could be applied to society, that people who were not hereditary learners, could be given the abilities which scholars have, by a well established system of education, discipline and practice.

[[ Democracy, of course, has very little to do with this discussion. In any case, if I have to contribute to that thought - note that might and majority have little to do with each other. India was ruled by the British who had a n average strength of 25,000 employees in India, for decades together. (It is in later stages of their rule that they brought more of their people to India.) Another observation I have had is that might is always right, whether or not the might is the majority's or a minority's. ]]
 
Dear Tech sir,

How is inclination generated within oneself? Are our brains a "clean slate" on which the writing of our experiences fashions our thinking?
'Brain' and 'mind' are two different entities. 'Brain' is physical whereas 'mind' is not. Brain is like a CPU in a computer and the mind is the program! This means that the brain does not 'generate' inclination!

This body is born and it is dead and the brain is part of the body and has the same fate and characteristics of the body. The mind on the other hand is the one that transmigrates! In other words, it is eternal! This is a big topic! Hopefully we can address this bit by bit!

(Thus Guna which is intrinsic in mind in terms of attitude and inclination is not acquired from parents - and thus not hereditory - but it does not deny that the parents would not have the same Guna. It is not acquired from them but brought into this incarnation as a result of poorva karma.)

But, I was not speaking of merely one generation of people. I was speaking of subsequent generations of people with similar coaching, training, all from an established precinct.
I do not understand how this can change the situation given the fact that a person has his/her own inclinations/traits would keep coming in every generation. In other words, you are dealing with people who apparently (yes, only apparently) are trainable but essentially (yes, this is the catch!) take what they want and leave what they don't!

Often, such influences are never the "trickle down" kind of influences. They aren't driven from the top-down a great deal. Sure, there is some initial effect of someone setting up a system, but they are more the kind where a method and a way of life evolve over time, depending on the success of the people who implement it.
When we talk of such concepts as Dharma, Guna etc., we have to understand that these concepts do not come under the mechanics of organization such as for example you would start a project right from the conception of the idea to building the infra-structure, manning, finance, production, sales, profit, winding up etc. etc. They are square pegs in round holes! Yet in respect of Prakrthi, Guna is the stuff with which the entire universe is made without which there is no universe. And karma is the functioning that keeps the universe ticking, otherwise it would collapse. These two functions percolate to all animate and inanimate objects that comprise the universe!

Having said this, let me address your 'influence' theory. This is simply called 'dhOsham'. Suppose I am a bad person and you happen to be my friend. Then my bad influence would be on you (called sahavaasa dhOsham) but only so long as you are associated with me. In other words, it is not permanent. In our Vedaantic parlance an example is usually cited. A crystal placed near a blue flower would acquire the blueness from the flower but remove the crystal away from the blue flower then the crystal would no more be blue. In other words, influences have temporary effect but during the temporary time it could made a differece! Association and dissociation are fruits of our prior karma.


"There were marvelous strides in the mathematics of Diophantine equations by Indian mathematicians long before the western world had even contemplated the concept of equations and when Rome was grappling with the concept of the zero. These strides in thinking came about by an organized combination of language, intellect and most of all, discipline. This discipline was not necessarily handed over from generation to generation, and such inquiry did not necessarily lead to greater scientific strides. There is something about the temper of the society one is in, which influences the success of such strides a great deal.

I say this because it is not merely innate ability and inclination, but also the very important discipline which a system imposes on people. This discipine helps organize knowledge and makes it accessible to people on a common platform. A method of enforcing discipline in learning is routine, another is poetry. Poetry has the advantage of two layers of abstraction - sound and words. One can survive because of the other. A great deal of discipline is required to learn poetry by heart, but it is not impossible, for anyone. There will be variations between different people who try it, and there will be differing levels of success to which they will capture the essence of the poem. But if a system is sufficiently well established, it is possible to teach poetry to people who haven't learnt poetry in their lives ever."
Your arguments are flawless but there is the basic fault. Attitudes do seem to appear as generated from society. That is, it appears as if the state of 'civilization' has engendered the corelation among people. This would lead to the conclusion such as the mind is a clean slate and that the state of society brings about the attitudes. But if you look closely then you would see that the individual mind gets to manifest itself under certain circumstance only in a particular way and not in as many possible ways. Yet it might as well be that this mind itself gave birth to the circumstace which enables it to manifest thoroughly! This leads us to conclude that the attitude remained in us as either unmanifestly or manifestly. We didn't acquire by chance or by accident or given to us by society or for reasons that are alien to us. In fact, we are alone responsible, as the creators, by our karma and it came to us as our fruit of karma.

So when you say: "it is not merely innate ability and inclination", you seem to concede yet you would like to revert (to your inclination perhaps!) to the idea that a certain training would bring about the desired result. At a certain temperature an egg hatches into a chicken but at no temperature would a rock hatch a chicken! The training can only manifest what is unmanifest in the person. It cannot manifest that which is not innately in that person. Anyone who would say that everything is innately in each person is merely making a bold statement! Facts of life pricks this hollow balloon.

Our Vedanta has specifically studied the humans and has cast them into four autonomous parts called varna. People who do not know how to identify a varna is losing faith in it. They would want you to identify the varnas for them or accept that there is no such thing as varna. They would say that if there were varnas in the past they were unnatural and was forced on people. Such system, they would thus conclude, as demeaning and cannot be allowed. Any one who believes in varnaasrama dharma are the devils incarnate and have to be condemned and burnt at stake etc. etc. All these arguments are based on their basic belief of the common 'clean slate' theory and their concept of equality (all are equally created, all are equally capable etc. and that all are equal). In practice this 'equality theorists' are the ones have embarked on tyranny and subjucation (refer to the communists of Russia, China, East Europe and many other shades of socialists including those now ruling India). Vedanta holds that people are different but none is any better in Prakrthi. Vedanta wants you, no matter to which varna you belong to, to transcend this Prakrthi.

Varna is based on Guna. It cannot be otherwise as such non-guna based branding of varna would not be justifiable. Some people think they can change Guna like they change their shirts. And to suit it they come up with their own pet arbitrary definition of Guna. They have thus painted themselves into a corner to say that varna is nonsensical. And the pity is that they want to hold the Brahmins responsible for the varna system!

In my opinion, today the people who defend and advocate varnaasrama dharma are those who happen to be non-Brahmins! The Brahmins, mostly, have joined the opposite camp of communists, atheists etc. Pity!





 
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Dear saab Ji,

Very interesting theories that you present above.

So, is it your position then that human beings are forever grouped in to only four varnas, based on their Karma? So, a particular combination of three gunas that is used to classify a person under four Varnas is carried over from life to life and the person, because of temporary 'doshams' never really can improve his/her lot during a given life?

What is the effect of 'free will', then? Studies have shown that a person is 'influenced' by his genes as well as the surrounding social conditions, to some extent. Are these studies wrong, then?

I believe that people are born with unique gifts and thus they are not 'equal' in the sense that they each have different capabilities. But a social system should absolutely recognize this and as the requirements are now growing in the modern world for people with all sorts of talents in multitude of professions (even the 'Kshatriya' army has requirements for all different talents), they should give 'EQUAL' cahnce to people to manifest their unmanifest talents. They should not be condemned to do the same job as their forefathers did, because the modern society will be the loser.

I think that the Varna system is passe, and was suited to a life much simpler in terms of work divisions, centuries ago. Unfortunately that division can not be applied to today's professions.

Just the fact that a well meaning Varna system degenerated in to the vile Jathi system, speaks for the impracticality of going back to such a system today! It will never happen.

My two cents.

Pranams,
KRS
 
Dear Tech Sir,

I find that there are several unjustified claims, prejudiced and illogical statements made in this post.

I cannot imagine something being revealed to a human being in a way other than thought. The seers could have been visionaries, who discovered certain principles which they felt could be used to leverage a notion of a class system which they felt could benefit society by dividing tasks - essentially a system of division of labour. Then, as now, the brahmins were rarefied and the workers were plenty. Naturally this is to keep the integrity of the group intact, as a whole. Most of these things about the caste system are logical at some level, but have, because of other influences, "corrupted" into a system of hierarchy which breeds hatred into people.

The wisdom of one generation is never the wisdom of the next. One has to change gears, move in a different direction, when confronted with difference of opinion, when confronted with crises. The Indian caste system has merely had all levels of people impose hegemony on people of other classes, and fear, self-doubt and communal regard have created generations of people who have these influences bred into them.

It is futile to make statements like a fisherman's son should be a fisherman, when it is clear that the innate ability in every human being can be harnessed to do much more than that.

And, there is nothing that is "proper". It only seems that way because we are used to nothing else. Things are as they are, it is we who do not change quickly enough to understand things.
I have been a visitor to this forum for a long time but it is for the first time I ventured into participating in discussions that seem to plunge me headlong!

To me, certain basic ideas have not been clearly understood by most participants as can be discerned from your understanding or disputation of what is a revealation. Couple of years ago on Sri Anbu has been posting under the 'Religion' segment what he called 'Musings on the Fundamentals of Hinduism' and I think he clearly enunciates the nature of Guna. I urge our fellow readers to read all his musings to gain a good understanding on the play of Guna. I reproduce below a sample entitled '
Caste and the Secularists' relevant to your posting.

There is an important thing that we have to bear in mind. We Hindus look at the world from the point of view of an eternal individual who keeps reincarnating into this world in different guises according to the endless karmas that we have performed. This is our 'home' and we pray for its safety in the famous benediction called 'manthra pushpam' where we repeatedly call out 'aayathanavaan bhavathi' ('aayathanam means abode, so
'aayathanavaan bhavathi' means 'let me be assured of this abode'. The western religions of judaism, christianity and islam whose influence pervade our thinking (this is our 'dhOsham'!), looks at the world from the eyes of the individual who is a one time visitor whose permanent abode is either heaven or hell. We come back to fulfill our unfulfilled ambitions. And then we try something else in eternal pursuit! In Mahabhaaratha the story of 'Sikhandi' tells us the idea of revenge in the mind bringing her back to fight and cause the death of Bheeshma.

If you start looking at the world from the western perspective of enterprise of the individual into this world, which in my opinion is a purely vaisya attitude, you either make a profit or loss and live with it in heaven or hell for ever! The 'free will and destiny' is cast in this regimen. There is no rhyme or reason in this chance based on skill testing question sort of thing!

We on the other hand have the freedom to do what we want and are only affected by the proportionate (not eternal) reward of enjoyment or suffering. Yet our freedom is conditioned by our innate ability, for example if you are so saathwic then you do not even think of violence to others even though it would be considered an option under the free will by westerners. Thus our freedom is real and yet the outcome (destiny) is not uncertain.

Caste and the Secularists

We are talking so much about castes perhaps without knowing what they are. The following article of mine published in SAAG forum in Jan 2005 gives my understanding. Hope this helps our readers.

"Caste is a misnomer that the Europeans applied to the social divisions that then existed when they first saw them in India. [Spanish casta, race, and Portuguese casta, race, caste, both from feminine of casto, pure, from Latin castus] Today's caste proliferation has nothing to do with Hinduism but to the secular government's policy of reservations in the field of education and employment. The imputation of this caste proliferation to the Brahmins or Hinduism per se is a motivated misinformation. The ills that you see today lie with sections benefiting from the man-made caste laws. The secular government alone is responsible for this mess of caste proliferation.

The four varnas that Hinduism talks about is based on 'Guna' or the stuff with which everything is made. The entire universe is made of this 'Guna' stuff that is three in number - called Sathvam, Rajas and Thamas. It is very difficult to explain in great detail in this blog and needless to say that without detailed explanation it is easily misunderstood. Having initiated the discussion, I do not wish to run away without saying something about this Guna. Sathvam can be compared to transparency, clarity, light, knowledge, subtleness, dispassion, love and so on. Thamas is the opposite of Sathvam in character indicating opaqueness, darkness, confusion, ignorance, grossness, passion, lust etc. Rajas can be compared to motion, work, order and disorder, anger, violence, pride, deceit, etc. You can say, for simplicity's sake, that mobility is its character. These three Gunas pervade the whole universe and the absence of even one will collapse the world.

The world can be divided into broadly two categories viz. those that are sentient and those that are inert. By sentience it is meant that it has (sense) perception and by inertness it is void of or dormant of sense perception. For example, a human being is sentient and a rock is insentient. However you also notice that there is varying degree of sharpness in their sentience among the sentient beings. Such degrees of sharpness are attributed to the intellect. So the animals though sentient are devoid of intellect. They are driven by their instinct. While animals move around, the plants which are seen to be sentient compared to a rock do not move from its fixed spot.

Now coming to humans, we see varying degrees of intellectual prowess from those of extremely imaginative ones to those quite dull-witted. The secularists who shout from the housetops about the equality of men and/or women often lose sight of this fact. Why don’t they listen to the Fabian Socialist George Bernard Shah who said that not everybody needs a microscope? We Hindus treat all living beings by our instinct of Ahimsa and not by secularists’ pretensions and professions.

A society needs both intellectuals as well as men who won’t be bothered about it. This is because they both contribute to the well-being of the society in their respective ways. Hindus understood that between these two extremes there are others who would also constitute a society. They who are between the intellectuals driven by Sathwa Guna and the dull-witted driven by Thamasa Guna are the Kshathriyas and Vaisyas driven by Rajo Guna. Since motion does not exist by itself but only with something else, for example you see motion only when something moves such as the water flowing or fire burning or wind blowing etc., so the Rajas has to cling on to either Sathwam or Thamas. So you have two categories viz. Sathwik Rajas and Rajasic Thamas. Since Rajas moves, Sathwic Rajas moves from Thamas to Sathwam and Rajasic Thamas moves in the opposite direction from Sathwam to Thamas. So intellectually you have a person who would go from ignorance to knowledge by sacrificing immediate gains for Truth and you have a person who would move abandoning reason to convenience. You see these two categories of people also and the society needs them (If they were not needed they wouldn’t be there). These are the fourfold varnas that you do see in society. Thus the all pervasive Guna constitute humans in the way described above.

A knower thus unmistakably sees the play of the Guna in people and he sees it as naturally residing in each individual as his driving force. The Guna is not inherited from the parents but attained by the ‘Aathma’ or soul (I hate to use the world ‘soul’ for it connotes a created entity whereas ‘Aathman’ is uncreated and eternal) by his poorva karma or actions in prior births. Thus a person is a Brahmana or a Vaisya for example, not by being born to Brahmin or to Vaisya parents and it does not also mean that a Vaisya is not born to a Vaisya and so on. However the Hindus do not abandon lineage as everyone has inherent pride in his heritage. Try asking M. Karunanidhi who badmouths Hindus by sheer ignorance, to abandon his family and friends. Actually many of DMK men themselves have voiced objections to making DMK a family property of Karunanidhi. We call this “Abimaanam’ or attachment. Some may say it is deceit or cheating! (People have a tendency to tell others but not to themselves and Karunanidhi is a prime example.)


(contd.)
 

This body is born and it is dead and the brain is part of the body and has the same fate and characteristics of the body. The mind on the other hand is the one that transmigrates! In other words, it is eternal! This is a big topic! Hopefully we can address this bit by bit!
You forget the most important aspect of all evolutionary theory - procreation. This is the act of converting the extant genes in the person to a new generation of people with a slightly different "hardware". As we grow older, our brain makes newer connections between its axons and when we pass our seed to our next generation, some of our genes, those responsible for brain development carry these changes in our brain to our offspring. This is how characteristics pass on from one generation to the next, and this includes the genetic and cellular changes which occur to us in childhood (since we become capable of procreation at adolescence, when nearly all the connections we would have in our adult brains would have been created).

There is nothing known that indicates that the "mind" is eternal. The mind is essentially a knowledge representation which is created by the instruments which the brain has - such as neurons and the connecting axons. Admittedly I do not have evidence to show that the mind is not eternal, but I can say that there is nothing to indicate whether the mind is eternal. It seems logical that the connections developed inside one's brain are attached to the specific neural network represented by the brain, unless there is devised a method which enables us to collect this information. Such technology is very far away yet.

(Thus Guna which is intrinsic in mind in terms of attitude and inclination is not acquired from parents - and thus not hereditory - but it does not deny that the parents would not have the same Guna. It is not acquired from them but brought into this incarnation as a result of poorva karma.)
There is an interesting casuistry about the nature of Guna - which is perhaps a result of the inherent misunderstanding which our ancestors have had about their understanding of evolution. Sometimes, combining one interesting idea with a plausible, but potentially misleading idea, is dangerous. A specific case of this is the combination of the theory of rebirth, and the theory of evolution. They have very little logic in common, except if one were to suppose that we manifest fully all our knowledge representations in our children and offspring, which is wrong. It could be correct from the myopic view of someone who believed their ancestors to be legendary, but it would be a figment of their imagination and not very authentic, at any rate.

I have, however, always been intrigued by whether the same environment can create similar personalities on similarly inclined minds, regardless of background. This of course has nothing to do with the subject of the discussion, so I will not dwell on it.

However, I disagree with the fact that our characteristics are not hereditary since this goes directly against the propositions I have made about the mind being attached to the brain and also directly against the propositions which you have made, stating that the brain is a biological organ which like all others undergoes conception, maintenance and death.

When we talk of such concepts as Dharma, Guna etc., we have to understand that these concepts do not come under the mechanics of organization such as for example you would start a project right from the conception of the idea to building the infra-structure, manning, finance, production, sales, profit, winding up etc. etc. They are square pegs in round holes! Yet in respect of Prakrthi, Guna is the stuff with which the entire universe is made without which there is no universe. And karma is the functioning that keeps the universe ticking, otherwise it would collapse. These two functions percolate to all animate and inanimate objects that comprise the universe!
I do not understand why you make a reference to square pegs and round holes in this context. This paragraph indicates very little understanding of either the physical universe or the theoretical universe as suggested by our ancients, and is not very illuminating either way.

Guna simply refers to the characteristics which objects have, not the stuff they are made of. Karma refers to the action of one object with certain characteristics, on another object, with certain characteristics. Naturally, the outcome of any interaction either creates, changes or destroys objects, which means that their characteristics change with different interactions.

Having said this, let me address your 'influence' theory. This is simply called 'dhOsham'. Suppose I am a bad person and you happen to be my friend. Then my bad influence would be on you (called sahavaasa dhOsham) but only so long as you are associated with me. In other words, it is not permanent. .... A crystal placed near a blue flower would acquire the blueness from the flower but remove the crystal away from the blue flower then the crystal would no more be blue. In other words, influences have temporary effect but during the temporary time it could made a difference! Association and dissociation are fruits of our prior karma.
Another term given to casuistry, "Dosham". To clarify, can you prove that the influence of one object on another is not permanent? When you say prior Karma, you refute this very idea.

Your arguments are flawless but there is the basic fault. Attitudes do seem to appear as generated from society. That is, it appears as if the state of 'civilization' has engendered the corelation among people. This would lead to the conclusion such as the mind is a clean slate and that the state of society brings about the attitudes. But if you look closely then you would see that the individual mind gets to manifest itself under certain circumstance only in a particular way and not in as many possible ways. Yet it might as well be that this mind itself gave birth to the circumstace which enables it to manifest thoroughly! This leads us to conclude that the attitude remained in us as either unmanifestly or manifestly. We didn't acquire by chance or by accident or given to us by society or for reasons that are alien to us. In fact, we are alone responsible, as the creators, by our karma and it came to us as our fruit of karma.
And yet, you say that our actions will be dependent on past actions.

Also, what is meant by "manifestation of the individual mind"? The term is itself not very illuminating, so I cannot claim to have correctly understood your critique of what you called my flawless argument.


Someone with your understanding of Gunas and characteristics would obviously be educated enough about how different a rock is from an egg. The astute man never underestimates the intelligence present inside a human being, and the astute man never realizes intelligence in a rock. You know this and I do, so what's the point of your argument? Very little, if anything.

Anyone who would say that everything is innately in each person is merely making a bold statement! Facts of life pricks this hollow balloon.
Anyone who says that it is not possible to bring about improvement over generations of coaching and discipline, is ignoring a possibility. Facts of history can burst this bubble.

Our Vedanta has specifically studied the humans and has cast them into four autonomous parts called varna. People who do not know how to identify a varna is losing faith in it. They would want you to identify the varnas for them or accept that there is no such thing as varna. They would say that if there were varnas in the past they were unnatural and was forced on people. ... All these arguments are based on their basic belief of the common 'clean slate' theory and their concept of equality (all are equally created, all are equally capable etc. and that all are equal). In practice this 'equality theorists' are the ones have embarked on tyranny and subjucation (refer to the communists of Russia, China, East Europe and many other shades of socialists including those now ruling India). Vedanta holds that people are different but none is any better in Prakrthi. Vedanta wants you, no matter to which varna you belong to, to transcend this Prakrthi.
These are not based on the "clean slate" theory but are the reactions of the "majority" who have felt subjugated and were awakened to the possibility that their future generations had a chance of being higher in the social ladder. The varnashrama dharma theory is unique to India and it may not be very illuminating of other societies.
Why can't Guna change? Sure, you can't just throw it away and get another type of it, but you can change yourself by educating yourself, or you can change yourself by falling into an abyss of ignorance. It is all possible. It is possible for the brain to re-learn, it is much harder to un-learn, but it is not impossible.

In my opinion, today the people who defend and advocate varnaasrama dharma are those who happen to be non-Brahmins! The Brahmins, mostly, have joined the opposite camp of communists, atheists etc. Pity!


I am surprised that you say this, because it is not true. I don't see forums created by non-brahmins where they discuss matters of our philosophy and re-instate the caste system! If anything, this only adds a poetic flavour of irony to your post, which is likeable at some level. But I dare say that this is not very illuminating or inspiring.
 
Dear Tech Sir,

I had written a long reply and posted it but the message came that it had to be approved by the administrator. Perhaps it was too long.

Anyway, you and I have a fundamental difference on what is 'mind'. You have said:
"There is nothing known that indicates that the "mind" is eternal. The mind is essentially a knowledge representation which is created by the instruments which the brain has - such as neurons and the connecting axons."
Mind is a product of brain?! It is a fantastic claim! Has anyone reproduced 'the mind'? Can anyone point out a 'mind'? Unfortunately there seems to be misunderstanding on the very basics - subject and object.

Unless you wish to meditate on what is the mind, I would take it that you wouldn't budge. That will simply end our discussion.

Regards,
saab
 
Dear Tech Sir,

I had written a long reply and posted it but the message came that it had to be approved by the administrator. Perhaps it was too long.

Anyway, you and I have a fundamental difference on what is 'mind'. You have said: Mind is a product of brain?! It is a fantastic claim! Has anyone reproduced 'the mind'? Can anyone point out a 'mind'? Unfortunately there seems to be misunderstanding on the very basics - subject and object.

Unless you wish to meditate on what is the mind, I would take it that you wouldn't budge. That will simply end our discussion.

Regards,
saab


I couldn't claim that the mind is a product of anything else other than the brain. Could you? What would you like to claim that the mind is a product of?

Have you read anything about Artificial Intelligence? I recommend you read this paper by J R Lucas, called Minds, Machines and Goedel. It is an engaging discussion about the nature of artificial intelligence.

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~jrlucas/mmg.html

Subject-Object dualism is something which is not unique to Indian philosophy. Of course, you understand that the mind and the brain are different and not one and the same. I say the same thing. But I say that the mind is a product of the brain, and its neural network. It is a different abstraction layer from the neural network itself, and is a meta layer of ideas which exist because of the existence of the neural network.

I cannot believe you think this is a fantastic claim.


Anyway, I think we have deviated very far from the original discussion, and I for one would like to relegate whatever we think to a separate discussion thread or perhaps personal messages.

Thank You,
tech_rsr
 
What would you like to claim that the mind is a product of?

Why should mind be a product at all? Why can't you conceive the mind be independent of the body and its part the brain? What deters such concept?
 
Dear Sri Ranganathan,

Namaskaram. And thank you for giving me the exerpts from Bhagavan Ramana. He is my Guru. Aum Namo Bhagavathe Sri Ramanaya! His 128th Jayanthi falls on the 25th December this year. Let us all pray for his Grace to be bestowed on us! Actually He has said that the Grace is always there and it is upto us to take it in spoon or in buckets or just plunge into it!

Now I did post something in reply to Sri Tech Sir, however the program wouldn't take it and came the message that a Moderator has to have a look at it! I do think it would be beneficial for those who are interested and so I am going to post in parts, hoping it will appear in the forum. Here I would have to mention that way back in June 2006 one Sri Anbu has written a series of Musings in this forum under the 'Religion' section on page 3 called 'Musings on the Fundamentals of Hinduism' where he has elaborately dealt with the Guna. I recommend our readers to go through these Musings to get a good grasp to follow our discussion. With this preamble let me post again that which did not appear!

Dear Tech Sir,


You have said:

I find that there are several unjustified claims, prejudiced and illogical statements made in this post.

I cannot imagine something being revealed to a human being in a way other than thought. The seers could have been visionaries, who discovered certain principles which they felt could be used to leverage a notion of a class system which they felt could benefit society by dividing tasks - essentially a system of division of labour. Then, as now, the brahmins were rarefied and the workers were plenty. Naturally this is to keep the integrity of the group intact, as a whole. Most of these things about the caste system are logical at some level, but have, because of other influences, "corrupted" into a system of hierarchy which breeds hatred into people.

The wisdom of one generation is never the wisdom of the next. One has to change gears, move in a different direction, when confronted with difference of opinion, when confronted with crises. The Indian caste system has merely had all levels of people impose hegemony on people of other classes, and fear, self-doubt and communal regard have created generations of people who have these influences bred into them.

It is futile to make statements like a fisherman's son should be a fisherman, when it is clear that the innate ability in every human being can be harnessed to do much more than that.

And, there is nothing that is "proper". It only seems that way because we are used to nothing else. Things are as they are, it is we who do not change quickly enough to understand things.
I have been a visitor to this forum for a long time but it is for the first time I ventured into participating in discussions that seem to plunge me headlong!

To me, certain basic ideas have not been clearly understood by most participants as can be discerned from your understanding or disputation of what is a revealation.

Couple of years ago on Sri Anbu has been posting under the 'Religion' segment what he called 'Musings on the Fundamentals of Hinduism' and I think he clearly enunciates the nature of Guna. I urge our fellow readers to read all his musings to gain a good understanding on the play of Guna.

There is an important thing that we have to bear in mind. We Hindus look at the world from the point of view of an eternal individual who keeps reincarnating into this world in different guises according to the endless karmas that he/she has performed. This is our 'home' and we pray for its safety in the famous benediction called 'manthra pushpam' where we repeatedly call out 'aayathanavaan bhavathi' ('aayathanam means abode, so 'aayathanavaan bhavathi' means 'let me be assured of this abode'. The western religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam whose influence pervade our thinking (this is our 'dhOsham'!), looks at the world from the eyes of the individual who is a one time visitor whose permanent abode is either heaven or hell. We, on the other hand, come back to fulfill our unfulfilled ambitions. And then we try something else in eternal pursuit! In Mahabhaaratha the story of 'Sikhandi' tells us the idea of revenge in the mind bringing her back to fight and cause the death of Bheeshma.

If you start looking at the world from the western perspective of enterprise of the individual into this world, which in my opinion is a purely vaisya attitude, you either make a profit or loss and live with it in heaven or hell for ever! The 'free will and destiny' is cast in this regimen. There is no rhyme or reason in this chance based on skill testing question sort of thing!

We on the other hand have the freedom to do what we want and are only affected by the proportionate (not eternal) reward of enjoyment or suffering. Yet our freedom is conditioned by our innate ability, for example if you are so saathwic then you do not even think of violence to others even though it would be considered an option under the free will by westerners. Thus our freedom is real and yet the outcome (destiny) is not uncertain.

As the karmaphala caused the individual to come back, his main purpose of the incarnation is therefore the 'bhOgam' or the enjoyment (or suffering) of his fruit. Then he also has the samskaara (taste) that he has brought with him into this incarnation which impels him into action. Thus he is primarily a bhOktha and secondarily a kartha. What he would specifically enjoy and suffer and perform are enabled by the Guna or inclination with which he is cast into this birth. That is Easwara Sankalpam by virtue of His power to dispense the fruits of karma. Thus it could be easlily inferred that the Guna with which a person is born into this birth is solely for this incarnation only and is not necessarily carried forward into a future birth. It could change depending on the Easwara Sankalpam again. Such Easwara Sankalpam is not arbitrary but directly related to one's karma. So the man is his own author. I hope Sri KRS gets his answer if he would open up the vista of his vision to more than a specific time period in a person's life. Devoid of this background one keeps arguing that a person can make his destiny within this birth. Such concept would vitiate karma theory of 'as you sow so you reap' and would be illogical.

Regards,
Saab

 
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How varna/caste system harmed Brahmins

Dear sri Saabji,

Thanks for your response.

I do not think anyone else other than sage Vasista has dealt with the
subject of 'Mind' in depth. Please see his magnum opus 'Yoga Vasista ',
perhaps the best literature on Vedanta.

Bhagawan Ramana used to say -' the world exists only in your mind'. I
spent my childhood days in sri Ramanashram when the Bhagawan was
alive.

with kind regards,
 
Dear Sri N.R.Ranganathan Ji,

I, under very strange coincidences and circumstances became the follower of Sri Bhagawan since 1999.

My namaskarams to you, as I just learnt of your darshan.

I said before that there are some differences of opinions between us. I withdraw that statement. You are definitely blessed.

Pranams,
KRS
 
Dear Sri Saab Ji,

Thank you for mentioning my inquiry, embedded in your response to Sr N.R. Ranganathan Ji.

My questions about Guna is quite amply answered by your posting above; except for one crucial point.

If I am born as as a Sudhra, but if I am Sattivic by nature (my Gunas), then am I a Sudhra?

This is THE QUESTION. Because, no one knows except my Ishwara how my accumulated Karma is going to play out in this life, as well as the new Karma I am accumulating in my present life that may play out in my current life.

I did read Sri Anbu Ji's postings about Varnas, and to tell you the truth, at that time I thought that this Forum stood the chance of being exposed to certain legal troubles! This was before I was told that Sri Anbu Ji was a Sanyasin! Of course, I am baffled by all that ego, but then, what do I know?

My understanding of Varnas is quite simple:

1. Varnas started out as a division of labour in old times.
2. They have degenerated in to Jathis which do not good to anyone in the modern society.
3. There is no way we can go back to the original Varna concept, as the requirements of today's society can not support this view.
4. But, there is value in observing the role played by the Brahmins of those times - that essentially involved self negation for the benefit of the society.
5. Not all Brahmins, who are born Brahmins today can fulfill this requirement - so as a community we should help those who want to carry this burden.
6. As a community, we are not treated well in the secular world in T.N. We should understand why, and do everything in our power to improve our conditions.
7. For this, we need to be united. This means that we agree to disagree on a number of debateable points of view. For eaxample, some people view the Varnas as hereditery. Some do not. There are citations to support either view by our revered Gurus. So, let us agree to disagree but move forward, united.
8. Any recent advances based on Hinduism (Swamy Vivekananda, Gandhi Ji, New Age, etc.) should be viewed as parts of Hinduism, and as such should not be viewed as contrary to the teachings of our great religion. Because, otherwise, will mean that we will have less people to our cause to unite and identify with Hinduism. Because, our religion is fundamentally not fundamental.
9. The only way people should differentiate between what is Hinduism and not Hinduism is by the authority of out Srutis. If people want to challenge one's interpretation of Hinduism, they better do it through the authority of Srutis and not necessarily through Smritis.

There you go. I am more than willing to learn, if you can present a convincing argument based on logic.

Pranams,
KRS
 
Dear Sri Ranganathan, Sri KRS, and Sri Tech_rsr and everyone,

My salutations to you all. I am so happy to be in the satsangh of the one who was blessed to be in the company of Bhagavan Sri Ramana. It looks like we are a bunch of devotees OF Bhagavan joined together celeberating His Jayanthi!

Yes, I have gone through Yoga Vasishta and it tore open the barriers that the mind puts! I would not have understood it if it were not for the Grace of Bhagavan. This mind which is variously called the intellect, buddhi or hridhayam is truly the abode of the universe, from where the universe springs and into which it finds its layam. Maayini "Hirthkamala vaasini viswamaatha:" is the operator! People like Tech Sir who are struggling to find out what we Hindus understand of the mind would definitely help themselves by boldly putting the questions like Sri KRS is doing. Those of us who have come to know will not hestitate to share our views.

One important thing we should keep in mind. Dr.Radhakrishnan has said, and I found it cent per cent true, that in order to know something we have to become that! For example, when I was trying to know of the western religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, I turned myself into a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim and that enabled me to break the resistance! I understood them better than most others who would claim to be a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim! It also confirmed my conviction that it is my sathwa guna that enabled it when I considered that many people considered it difficult to divorce their concept of who they are. We Brahmins should do well to manifest this Guna to learn!

This reaffirmed my conviction of the Hindus that the object is in the subject and not divorced from it. Any such estrangement is only an appearance but not a reality. Our innate Gnanaagni is such that you are never trapped into what you have come to know. Therefore I ask everyone not to get bogged down by our learning of the stream of time either both of now and of the distant past, consciously or unconsciously. In our discussions which is basically on Hindu concepts we would be using or relying on nothing western exept for the English language. This does not mean that we do not consider anything western. On the contrary we would discern and dissect them in the light of the knowledge of our great ancestors.

Dear Sri KRS, I will try to answer your questions and hopefully Sri Ranganathan can also help us. It is news to me that Sri Anbu is a Sanyasi. No wonder he has such great in depth knowledge of Hinduism. My salutations to him. You have made a reference to the ego which confounds me. However I have to ask you to apply what Bhagavan has taught us: "To whom does the ego belong?". The natural answer would be "me". And then you should follow it with the question: "Who am I?"

1. Varnas started out as a division of labour in old times.
'Division of labour' is a western concept. Everybody labours. What is more appropriate is the division of talent. If you begin to look from this point of view, you would understand that such concept as primitive communist society, slavery, feudalism, capitalism, socialism and communism are but Maya. The definition of Maya is its contradiction: "It appears true but not really!"


2. They have degenerated in to Jathis which do not good to anyone in the modern society.
Degeneration and regeneration are parts of nature. Rivers and tributeries seem parellel at one point but they join into one later and they may yet divide too. Varna is the underlying factor and the multiplication of castes baffle us. If you get caught in the vortex then you have a problem. There are solutions and there are damages. Yet in the long run the regeneration overtakes the damage. Look at Hinduism. How many attacks it had had in the written history alone! When we talk of written history, given to wester education, we tend to ignore the puranas which is a written history too and it encompasses time beyond imagination and the western history is no match to it!
3. There is no way we can go back to the original Varna concept, as the requirements of today's society can not support this view.
This is again based on the western view of division of labour. To them, societies such as primitive communist society, slavery, feudalism, capitalism, socialism and communism etc changes in one direction. They say that these changes are developmental and and cannot reverse. That is a capitalist society is better than feudal society or primitive communist society and cannot revert to a slave society or a primitive communist society. These are just idealist prattles. We all know what happened to the communist blocs. The socialist countries have reverted to capitalism. While the socialists ruled under Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot they conducted genocide. How better is it than the so called slave society? The capitalism that goes by the name of 'democracy' is even worse. The democrats of Britain whose magna carta is extolled as the greatest document, exploited India and suppressed its people and inflicted untold sufferings on them and retarded the development of this great country for centuries. The American democrats dropped atom bombs and have conducted pograms in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and displaced millions out of those countries and continue to steal the resources. Please do not be carried away by their benign concepts of glory. We have to have our own mindset.

Again we should not look at the varna as a concept and with the western view. This will continue to drive you away from grasping it. India had glorious past and was most industrialised than all other countries. It was called the Industiral workshop of the world! This is admitted by the westerners. Yet there is nothing to suggest that those empires had to throw away the varna 'system' as you call it. In fact people flourished during that time, as late as in the Vijayanagara Empire' and people were able to attain their purushaartha.

4. But, there is value in observing the role played by the Brahmins of those times - that essentially involved self negation for the benefit of the society.
5. Not all Brahmins, who are born Brahmins today can fulfill this requirement - so as a community we should help those who want to carry this burden.
Again such 'branding' of Brahmins as self-negators etc. are western concepts. The concept that a Brahmin is one who does 'purohitham' and nothing else is an idea born of ill will. Bhagavan Ramana's father was a government pleader. Does that mean he was no more a Brahmin and that Bhagavan was not a 'Brahmana Sanyaasi' as he was once known? It is not correct to say that a Brahmana is not a Brahmana because he does something or the other. People find their purushaartha. When you talk of a group, it expands or contracts at a given circumstance. Brahmins as a group like any others, are subject to this vagary of nature. The constituent Guna of a Brahmin gets manifest or remain unmanifest in him due his praarabda. Having said that I would like to agree with you that those who can should help a fellow Brahmana in need, whether he goes to Vedic school or non-vedic school for following an avocation. I know of a lot of non-Brahmins who contribute to Vedic Schools.

6. As a community, we are not treated well in the secular world in T.N. We should understand why, and do everything in our power to improve our conditions.
This is because those asuric forces benefit by dividing the people by pitting one section against another. Many Brahmins have embarked on changing physical appearance to ward off this evil. They do not have tuft any more, they sport mustaches, speak non-Brahmin language, etc. etc. and still try to carry the traditions at home in some small way. The asuras would not be permanently ruling the world as our puranas have said time and again. Under better condition the Brahmins would revert to more open practices. These are cyclical.
7. For this, we need to be united. This means that we agree to disagree on a number of debateable points of view. For eaxample, some people view the Varnas as hereditery. Some do not. There are citations to support either view by our revered Gurus. So, let us agree to disagree but move forward, united.
Dear Sri KRS, no one can stop you from having a contra view. Brahmin is a Brahmin by birth and so are others and if it is not a fact there is no reason for us to come to this forum. Unity is based on common interest and not on disagreement!

(contd.)
 
8. Any recent advances based on Hinduism (Swamy Vivekananda, Gandhi Ji, New Age, etc.) should be viewed as parts of Hinduism, and as such should not be viewed as contrary to the teachings of our great religion. Because, otherwise, will mean that we will have less people to our cause to unite and identify with Hinduism. Because, our religion is fundamentally not fundamental.
"Because, our religion is fundamentally not fundamental"?! I have no idea what it means. Anyway, people like Swamy Vivekananda have been zealous about Hinduism and had said something that glorified it. Their followers have gone away from the mainstream and there is no scope for them to come back to the rituals connected with Hinduism. Perhaps they talk of only Gnana. Vast majority of the Hindus have no idea of Gnana and would need that karma kaanda for their survival. If you are with the vast majority you would stick with the core values. I have no problem if you want to follow RK mission.

9. The only way people should differentiate between what is Hinduism and not Hinduism is by the authority of out Srutis. If people want to challenge one's interpretation of Hinduism, they better do it through the authority of Srutis and not necessarily through Smritis.
Let's leave this part to the Achaaryaals because they have greater knowledge and also it is their job. We have lot more to worry about other things.

Regards,
Saab
 
How varna /caste system......

Dear Sri KRSji,
Many thanks for your message. It is all purva punya. Many Brahma Gnanis
took me under their umbrella - Bhagawan Ramana, Sathguru Gnanananda,
Kanchi MahaPeriyaval ( these three personally ) and Seshadri Swamigal
and Shirdi Baba. I am still a traveller. Many miles to go sir.....

Sir, you do not have to withdraw your statement at all. Your doubts will
be cleared soon, since, you are, according to me, a genuine seeker of TRUTH.
 
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Dear Sri Saab Ji,

Thank you for the detailed response to my posting. I was away, traveling and as such could not respond in a timely fashion - I apologize for that.

By the way, what you have said about the Bhagawan is true. He is still a uniting force, irrespective of the sects, traditions, religions we may come from. He was a 'Suddha Advaitin' as Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji put it elsewhere. He saw the humanity as well as the animals and the inanimate objects as His family (even the theives and the scoundrels got His grace).

Lert me also say that the only other person besides you who lived like a person belonging to different religions was the first Parama Hamsa in our tradition. He was rediculed by some, when He said that other religions follow the same path as ours.

I am in a way very fortunate in my life. I had very close friends who were both Christians and Muslims when I grew up (they were my neighbours) and I was married to a person of Jewish faith for a very long time and still have very close relatives who follow Christianity. So, I know a bit about these religions as well, and I find no difference in their devotion to their Gods compared to our devotions to our Gods.

By the way, the idea of 'Division of Labor' was not invented by me. I was repeating Maha Perival's exact words from a topic exactly titled from His book Hindu harma :http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap1.htm

While I do not agree with certain later interpretations of the Varna system, I certainly agree with the concept of the Varnas were created for the division of labour and non-competition among different folks in the society for the same jobs, assuring the smooth functioning of the society, long ago. But this can only work, if ALL the different Varnas fulfill their assigned duties and accept their roles in such a society. As we know today, this condition does not exist.

Having said this, I will address each one of the points you have addressed responding to my original posting. It may take a few postings, and so I beg your patience.

You said:
'Division of labour' is a western concept. Everybody labours. What is more appropriate is the division of talent. If you begin to look from this point of view, you would understand that such concept as primitive communist society, slavery, feudalism, capitalism, socialism and communism are but Maya. The definition of Maya is its contradiction: "It appears true but not really!"

Dear Sri Saab ji, I would never accept the birth as the determinator of talent. If this is so, I can never explain the brillinace exhibited by our servant's son, nor exhibited by others I have come across my life. Unfortunately, people who think the way you do tend to connect the predominance of Gunas to one's birth (like all the Brahmins Are Sattvic) etc. But in my life, I have not found this to be true.

By the way, ALL the systems you have mentioned above as 'western' have existed in India at one time or another! Just because the western civilization which lagged ours came up with these concepts long after we have undergone them, does not mean that these concepts are alien to us.

And, just to set the records straight, Capitalism is not truly a Politico-Socio-Economic system. It is just an Economic system, waiting for a political-social system to control it, unlike it's perceived opposite, the 'Communism'.

You have said:

Degeneration and regeneration are parts of nature. Rivers and tributeries seem parellel at one point but they join into one later and they may yet divide too. Varna is the underlying factor and the multiplication of castes baffle us. If you get caught in the vortex then you have a problem. There are solutions and there are damages. Yet in the long run the regeneration overtakes the damage. Look at Hinduism. How many attacks it had had in the written history alone! When we talk of written history, given to wester education, we tend to ignore the puranas which is a written history too and it encompasses time beyond imagination and the western history is no match to it!

This is a basic problem in your argument: The Four Varnas, from your argument were the correct division of talents (I am paraphrasing, and please correct me if I am wrong). Then the Jathis do not make any sense. Jathis came about because of divisions of labour within Varnas (A Chozhia Brahmin did a different job than a Smartha Brahmin). The reason Hinduism survived all the attacks was indeed because of the netrenched Jathi system - but that does not mean that the Jathi system spoke for the fundamental truth that Hinduism represented.

Puranas are Great! But this constant comparisons to western culture is not useful. Let us rejoice in our accomplishments without tearing down others'.

Continued in my next posting.

Pranams,
KRS
 
Response to Sri Saab Ji, Continued

Dear Saab Ji,

I think you are really mistaking several concepts. India never had anyone who conquered as widely as Gengis Khan, Alexander or the more modern British Empire. I do not think, this was because our Hindu kings did not desire to conquer the world (we know that King Ashoka did somewhat).

India as we know it today was not ruled by one Hindu King because of the constant internicine battles and shifting of loyalties. India could never have been conquered by the outsiders if the Hindu kings united.

We also look at the development of world ethics as time progresses. When the conquerers conquered and slaughtered untold innocent folks. that was the culture then. How many Hindu kings conquered their hapless neighbours and slaghtered the innocents? What about the slaughter of Buddhists by a Hindu king? Are these wrong?

Yes, they are wrong, viewed from today's ethos and ethics. But how can anyone judge the bygone eras by today's standards?

You have said:

Again we should not look at the varna as a concept and with the western view. This will continue to drive you away from grasping it. India had glorious past and was most industrialised than all other countries. It was called the Industiral workshop of the world! This is admitted by the westerners. Yet there is nothing to suggest that those empires had to throw away the varna 'system' as you call it. In fact people flourished during that time, as late as in the Vijayanagara Empire' and people were able to attain their purushaartha.

Dear Sri Saab ji,

The Purushaartha has been long dead, since the advent of the so called 'untouchables'. Brahmins were not the cause for it (probably), but one has to remember for the society to function well, ALL four Varnas have to accept each other's role. When did the concept of 'Untouchables' come about? And, why? If Brahmins, by their prescribed Dharma were minding the store, could this have ever happened?

You said;
Again such 'branding' of Brahmins as self-negators etc. are western concepts. The concept that a Brahmin is one who does 'purohitham' and nothing else is an idea born of ill will. Bhagavan Ramana's father was a government pleader. Does that mean he was no more a Brahmin and that Bhagavan was not a 'Brahmana Sanyaasi' as he was once known? It is not correct to say that a Brahmana is not a Brahmana because he does something or the other. People find their purushaartha. When you talk of a group, it expands or contracts at a given circumstance. Brahmins as a group like any others, are subject to this vagary of nature. The constituent Guna of a Brahmin gets manifest or remain unmanifest in him due his praarabda. Having said that I would like to agree with you that those who can should help a fellow Brahmana in need, whether he goes to Vedic school or non-vedic school for following an avocation. I know of a lot of non-Brahmins who contribute to Vedic Schools.

Dear Saab Ji,

A Sanyasin is beyond Varna and Caste. This is exactly why the Bhagawan, though born a Brahmin attracted others of all different religious faiths.

Purushartha has no meaning unless ALL four Varnas agree to the system. A king can not crown himself unless his wards accept him as a king. A brhamin is not a brahmin in the original brahminical definition, unless he performs the original brahminical duties (dharma). Please read 'A day in a Brahmin's life' in the Hidu Dharma by the Maha Periaval.

There is no western concepts here. Please go and read the role of Brahmins among the four Varnas, expounded By Maha Periaval as well as our other Hindu Luminaries such as Swamy Vivekananda Ji, Swami Sivananda Ji, etc.

Pranams,
KRS
 
Response to Sri Saab ji Continued:

Dear Sri Saab ji,

You said:

This is because those asuric forces benefit by dividing the people by pitting one section against another. Many Brahmins have embarked on changing physical appearance to ward off this evil. They do not have tuft any more, they sport mustaches, speak non-Brahmin language, etc. etc. and still try to carry the traditions at home in some small way. The asuras would not be permanently ruling the world as our puranas have said time and again. Under better condition the Brahmins would revert to more open practices. These are cyclical.

Dear Sri Saab Ji,

I am very sorry. I agree with you that a true Brahmin should follow the traditions. This means, in addition to having a tuft, learning the Vedas and the Shastras for almost twenty five years starting from a young age. This means, he lives for the well fare of the society at large. Are we doing it as a community? May be a very small percentage is doing it.

Asuras can not do their handywork if the Devas follow their Dharma!

You have said:

Dear Sri KRS, no one can stop you from having a contra view. Brahmin is a Brahmin by birth and so are others and if it is not a fact there is no reason for us to come to this forum. Unity is based on common interest and not on disagreement!

But, Dear Saab Ji,

Of couse some people do! They define a Brahmin by all sorts of things! But, I am glad at least that you recognize, irrespective of our views, we are born Brahmins!

You have said:

"Because, our religion is fundamentally not fundamental"?! I have no idea what it means. Anyway, people like Swamy Vivekananda have been zealous about Hinduism and had said something that glorified it. Their followers have gone away from the mainstream and there is no scope for them to come back to the rituals connected with Hinduism. Perhaps they talk of only Gnana. Vast majority of the Hindus have no idea of Gnana and would need that karma kaanda for their survival. If you are with the vast majority you would stick with the core values. I have no problem if you want to follow RK mission.

Dear Saab ji,

Please read Sri ArchanaVenkatramayar Ji's posting under 'Are Atheists T.N. Brahmins?'.

You exhibit a strain of thought that tells me that you think that the 'mainstream' of Hinduism is about following the rituals. Can you cite me any references that you have to come to this conclusion? I thought that there are four distinct paths to attain salvation as prescribed in Gita. Who is the majority, and who follow the 'core values'?

Your response will be appreciated, because, there in lies the crux of the problems that contribute to the disunity of Hindus.

You said:

Let's leave this part to the Achaaryaals because they have greater knowledge and also it is their job. We have lot more to worry about other things.


But who are the 'Acharyalas?' in Hinduism? Who do they represent? I have to tell you that one of the most revered Acharyals recently questioned about the efficacy of the Bhagawan's teachings on Advaitha. Who is correct? Is Maha Perival 100 percent correct, in His words to Brahmins? I know a few Sringeri Matham Zealots who do not agree. Who is right?

Sri Saab ji, please answer.

Pranams,
KRS
 
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