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How Varna/Caste System Harmed Brahmins

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Dear HH,

Sorry, I would like to side step the first para of your reply. But, thank u for being one more person who might show a chance for the revival of the great tradition.

True, being a Brahmin in the truest sense is tough in today's world. For that matter has been tough always.

Simply because, one needs to think and live selflessly to be a true Brahmin. All other activities during a Brahmin's life - pujas, rituals, recital or teaching of vedas, even meditation - all have to be performed selflessly. Yes, it is difficult, but satisfying.
 
All other activities during a Brahmin's life - pujas, rituals, recital or teaching of vedas, even meditation - all have to be performed selflessly. Yes, it is difficult, but satisfying.

Dear SV-ji,

Yes it will surely be satisfying. There are people who say money can buy happiness. Probably true. But it does not last, nor does it cause intense happiness.

Every single emotion we feel is supposedly the byproduct or result of chemical reactions in our brain. During meditation, cortisol levels have proven to be lowered and dopamine, the delight chemical, is proven to be higher. Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11958969 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1801007 Systemic serotonin called the "fulfillment hormone" in this article is also found to be higher: http://www.biomedexperts.com/Abstra...olites_in_transcendental_meditation-technique There are many such studies extolling the benefits of meditation.

An elderly lady i know, an ardent bhagavatha, practices mediatation everyday and never found the need to marry, remains as independent-spirited as ever and shows no sense of dependence in any form. One yogi had demonstrated how the top of his head wud vibrate during the peak of meditation which is called as near-samadhi. His awareness level was so high, he could tell everything about a person (past, present and future) very casually, if he so wished (though he hardly ever did). But it was never done for any testing purposes. Thankfully, there are quite a few indian yogis today who allow themselves to be tested.

It is understood that no amount of money can push dopamine levels to the peak as it does happen during meditation. This is also one reason why ppl who meditate regularly lose interest in other forms of activity, for it is known to cause a strange kinda detachment and a strange kinda happiness dependent on nothing. However, the seers had also shown how to balance family life and spiritual life. Everyone agrees that prayer is therapeutic. It is so obvious how even simple chanting can make the air feel so charged, not to mention about homams which have their own special effect.

The prob is that people question these things, even argue with stuff like, how can any prayer or meditation help etc, and reject it without even trying to understand it.

Regards.
 
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People understand, bearing a child is hardship and bringing it up well is a bigger one...still they do it time and again. They don't say, I understand it is tough so let me fore go that experience (at least after the first one).

People do a lot of things during their lifetime that might bring them a level of unhappiness - knowingly and unknowingly. They don't really wait to understand the consequences many a time. But, they want to know before even trying in one aspect of life - meditation vis a vis spiritual activity.

The only difference I see is that - people are ready to under take hardship for pleasure, material wealth, ego boosting goals but not towards something which promises to gradually wipe out all these - spiritual activity.

All things about varna system are aimed at spiritual growth. Spiritual growth to individuals by channelizing their life activity. Eventually providing social balance, personal discipline and selfless service.

When Brahmins did not want to do this, eventually we the Brahmins intruded into jobs and roles played by others in the varna system. Where by creating competition, jealousy and even hatred. Now, when India was under the British rule, the British encouraged this to promote the divide and rule policy and of course to get the best labor force for any field they needed.

Eventually when the Brahmin continued to erode jobs in all fields even after independence, everyone else wanted to make sure their interests are protected. Thus came in the quota system. Even then we only kept excelling ourselves and still kept getting better positions. Thus the quota keeps increasing. Now, we have quotas for every varna and sub divisions in it other than for some supposedly forward castes (which include Brahmins).

Looking at it now, the varna system as Paramacharya has said, has been deeply harmed by us the Brahmins.

Even today, nature has brought back the varna system into our own country in a different way - the quota system. Can anyone think about removing the quota system? I guess not. Maybe it would change with times, but nature will find some other way to protect people who need help.

Currently the Brahmins don't need the help. Since, most of them are able to fend for themselves. The other few can still avail the opportunity to follow their varna dharma. Most of us even hear that the people who perform vedic rituals charge a lot now a days, then we really don't have to worry about them if only they keep them selves well trained/equipped for that job.

It can be called a job if they want to earn a living. Or it can be called a service through which god helps them to live - if they look at it in a more puritan way.
 
sri sridhar

>>Looking at it now, the varna system as Paramacharya has said, has been deeply harmed by us the Brahmins.<<

varna system was formed only becoz of administrative purposes of the rulers for enabling them to control masses.Otherwise the definition of brahmin aka brahmana is entirely different.One cannot inherit brahmana by birth,its purely by action & reaction,stipulated by methods,we become brahmin.I think Mahaswamigal was hauling all people who do not conform to the way of life prescribed as brahmins,but call themselves as brahmins ie jathi brahmins.Mahaswamigal was correct in rebuking all jathi brahmins.Either behave as prescribed or stop calling yourself brahmin.I think i will stop calling myself brahmin,would be a small minority of people ascribing to this viewpoint.

sb
 
Dear SB,

Here is an extract of what Paramacharya has said, "The karma-bhrasta who discards all varna dharma believes that the sages created a system not suitable to the times." You can find this in kamakoti.org...I am not specifiying the page, so you will get an opportunity to read so many other teachings while you search for this.

I have quoted this only because you have great reverence to this sage of recent times. Also, because it answers your wordsm implying "varna system was created for administrative purposes by rulers of the past" may not be all that correct.

There are very few who would accept their short comings...you have. That being a rare quality...I think u should rather work a bit to overcome this short coming.

Paramacharya says, if we can even devote just one hour a day towards vedic and/or spiritual pursuits, we could still help being on track. I'm sure you will find this one hour and I'm sure you will be happy to have taken the effort when you look back years from now.
 
re

Shri Sridhar

>>The karma-bhrasta who discards all varna dharma believes that the sages created a system not suitable to the times....<<

Here the Mahswamigal says,the sastras sages...are the mukya pramanam...to adhere to varna dharma as brahmins.But there is no specific sages name nor any specific shastra mentioned in the website.Wish they had published Mahaswamigals entire conversation un-edited.

>>This is not acceptable in the least. I am a representative and spokesman of the sastras. It is my duty to state that this (making Vedic dharma common to all castes) is not permitted by the sages who created the sastras and assigned the duties special to each caste. They (the sages) were known for their spirit of sacrifices and impartiality and they had no interest other than the happiness of mankind. <<

I am only infereing he is talking about Shankara Bhagavath Padam and his other senior gurus of the Kamakoti Sampradayam..

>>What is the foundation of varna dharma? It is one's willingness to follow the vocation and dharma that belong to one by hereditary without any consideration of one's likes and dislikes.<<

When society one lives in has changed dramatically,its almost impossible to adhere to the wise Mahaswamigal sayings...

>>Such willingness is based on the realisation that the vocation and dharma that have come to us are according to the will of Isvara, that they are manifested through the Vedas and sastras and that to practise them is to destroy our ego. <<

Sure i am un-realised,if in context with Mahaswamigals direct truths.

>>The point to noted is that if you believe in the sastras you must believe in them fully. If you are an atheist you could of course reject all of them. But to make a show of being very clever and twist the sastras as you like, accepting some parts or rejecting or changing some others, is an offence more grave than that of being an atheist. To think that Mother Veda should dance to our tune is also a great offence. Learning the Vedas in such an attitude is tantamount to ridiculing them. <<

I think its Mahaswamigals most vehement admonition,especially for me.As i do twist the sastras to my liking and then rationalise it,nonchalantly.

>>It is important to remember that neither hatred of Brahmins nor dislike of Sanskrit has ever been a part of Tamil culture and civilization. Sanskrit is the repository of Atmic and religious sastras, a storehouse of poetry and works on arts. Everyone must learn to regard it as "our own language".<<

I am with Mahaswamigal 120% on this.I love Tamizh as well as Sanskrit,Kannada .. above all English.I love brahmins.I consider entire bhu-loka as one,more like the 'whole'.Poornamidam.....

Even though in hindsight i am able to think and write,but in the presence of Mahaswamigal or H H Jayendrar Saraswathi or H H Vijayendrar Sarswathi...i have always listened to their words.When Mahaswamigal asked me to take a bath in the pond nearby in Kalavai one early morning in the late 70's,i did without even thinking or hesitating without knowing how to swim and not knowing how deep the pond is....such was my bhakthi....but now,i dread to even utter his name as i have fallen in so many ways.....same way ,during the early 80's in kurnool,when all three swamigals confluenced,i was asked to do pada namaskaram to H H Vijayendrar Saraswathi who was in his tweens,i did immdly despite knowing he was younger than me in age...in fact i believe, as i was told by personal seva dals of Mahaswamigal that, i was the first to do pada namaskaram for H H Vijayendrar Saraswathi....i better stop all my nostalgia...thanks



http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part19/chap3.htm


sb
 
>>The point to noted is that if you believe in the sastras you must believe in them fully. If you are an atheist you could of course reject all of them. But to make a show of being very clever and twist the sastras as you like, accepting some parts or rejecting or changing some others, is an offence more grave than that of being an atheist. To think that Mother Veda should dance to our tune is also a great offence. Learning the Vedas in such an attitude is tantamount to ridiculing them. <<

Not sure this would be taken as being offensive, however am curious and am therefore putting forth something, mostly based on my conversation with one teacher (who btw was born a brahmin).

Any feedback / clarification wud greatly help with the malady of doubts am afflicted with as below :

1) A son inherits his parent's qualities, but does he inherit his parent's circumstances? If he has inherited a different set of circumstances or fate, wud that then mean he has inherited different samskaras (samskara context = so-called 'memory' imprints of past births), that are responsible for creating his current fate?

His qualities may be the same of his parents' and his family atmoshphere is certainly one part of the circumstances he has inherited. His inclination maybe towards veda vidya as well. But are his circumstances as a whole the same as his father's? Does he live in the same house as his father? Does he look exactly like his father? Does he behave exactly like his father? Does he marry at the same age as his father? Does the pattern of his own life exactly follow that of his father's? If his fate is different, then has he inherited a portion of karmic tendencies that is not his father's, but his own? If he has inherited a part of karma that is his own, then suppose his tendencies or samskaras as honed over the previous births, are towards the pursuation of wealth and his interest in matters of the spirit is either very low or just as an interest (but not to live in it fully), what would then a karma-bhrasta mean?

2) There are Yogic traditions that do not belive in mantra, tantra or yantra. Some go by bijakshara (single syllable sounds), as in laya yoga, and are offered diksha by a guru to unlock the presence of the sound to harness it appropriately. Then there are yogic traditions that beleive in mantrasadhana and they too offer diksha to remove or mitigate previous negative energy of the person and unwind positive energy of the mantra. All of them pursue the shastras and all of them interepret it much the same way as do the brahmins, except for the varna by birth theory. To top it, all of them claim they are heeded for brahminhood. Would their ways then be tantamount to ridiculing the vedas ? Or did Sri Mahaperiaval refer to the atheists alone in the above saying (in quotes) ?

3) If the brahmins were to go back to varna dharma, quit as a whole lot from the mainstream workforce, and jolt other varnas into taking notice, what would be the effect then? Would a dalit who has become a judge be okay with going back to doing menial jobs? What would happen to his aspirations for himself and his children?

End note:
I wholly respect Sri Mahaperiaval. I do believe He is right in His path. But I also believe all the other paths that have come into being over ages, also have their place under the sun. However, i am really confused and lost as regards the social aspect of the whole thing.

The above are just questions. Please do not hold anything against me as a person (am esp concerned after reading a particular thread). Just because someone raises these questions, please do not see it as anti-anything. If you as a brahmin had raised these questions, how wud the others react? Please treat this the same way.
 
During a conversation on what is brahman, was told that brahmins in the past had also sought other professions. The person was of thot that if brahmins in the past had followed the path of the brahman, there wud have been many more schools and lineages as gothras established (though i was not sure i understood).

After talking to a few others, it seems that the dharmasutras and puranas were written to allow such a transition (of change in social roles) to take place. The padmapurana for example allows a brahmin to take up the jobs of a kshatriya or a vaishya..but some dharmasutras prohibit it and class the vaishyas together as shudras, while some view them as a seperate entity..then tehre is quite a conflict regarding the self-contradictory nature of some portions of some dharmasutras as well...

Moreover it is said that Indra, Mitra, Varuna, etc mentioned in the vedas are diff from the ones mentioned in puranas. Indra gets defeated (rather often) by various (tribal ?) conglomerates such as nagas and asuras. In the Mbh, Krishna also apparently defeated Indra. Strangely we have no temples for Indra, Mitra, Varuna....some say the enlightened people of the east used the word "deva" more as a title or a self-designation; so when someone says the devas fought, won or lost, it makes sense...it wud be like saying a group that uses a title meaning a king, like say in the present time, won or lost a particular tribal fight. Apparently there was more than one king / deva being named after the vedic elemental deity as Indra..

And then it also appears that the missing portions of the vedas may hold the clue to some dilemmas we face today...where goes scriptural adherence in such a situation?
 
re

>>Not sure this would be taken as being offensive, however am curious and am therefore putting forth something, mostly based on my conversation with one teacher (who btw was born a brahmin).

Any feedback / clarification wud greatly help with the malady of doubts am afflicted with as below :

1) A son inherits his parent's qualities, but does he inherit his parent's circumstances? If he has inherited a different set of circumstances or fate, wud that then mean he has inherited different samskaras (samskara context = so-called 'memory' imprints of past births), that are responsible for creating his current fate?<<

What one inherits is his karma by his action of past birth,is one way.Another way would be,one inherits the genes of parents.But for admin purpose,only fathers gothram is pradanam.Despite the fact mothers genes do come to children.From childhood,if a person is trained,in a particular field of area,then one will become accomplished in that sphere of activity.Just like in India and to some extent in USA,politicians children becoming politicians.A dynastic rule being perpetuated,as long as people are dumb to tolerate it,in a democracy(de-mock-crazy).

Definitely one never inherits parents genius or craziness,imho.Based on past birth karma,the consciousness automatically enters the fertilisation process between a sperm and an egg.And that is how,brahmins get brahmana artham.By birth all of us are equal.But by action in life,we have to prove and establish our brahmin qualities,to be called as brahmana or brahmins.I do not want to hide behind shastram,sampradayam,saints of yesteryears...as this is my opinion.

>>His qualities may be the same of his parents' and his family atmoshphere is certainly one part of the circumstances he has inherited. His inclination maybe towards veda vidya as well. But are his circumstances as a whole the same as his father's? Does he live in the same house as his father? Does he look exactly like his father? Does he behave exactly like his father? Does he marry at the same age as his father? Does the pattern of his own life exactly follow that of his father's? If his fate is different, then has he inherited a portion of karmic tendencies that is not his father's, but his own? If he has inherited a part of karma that is his own, then suppose his tendencies or samskaras as honed over the previous births, are towards the pursuation of wealth and his interest in matters of the spirit is either very low or just as an interest (but not to live in it fully), what would then a karma-bhrasta mean?<<

Vidiyayai Madhiyaal Vellalam ie Fate can be won over by mental intelligence.Only 33 1/4 % is fate from past birth action,the balance is ones free will to shape his/her destiny.More often than not,people in India,take this 33 1/4 % of karma as determining factor and rue over fate.Karma-Bhrasta,I saw a kitten in my friend's house today.It had lost its mother soon after it was born.
It never knew that it was a kitten and left alone.Without any observation or company of a cat, it does exactly what a cat does.To pass stool it dug a pit and pushed the mud back after passing stool. Now tell me who taught it to behave like a cat?Its the impression of the brain that was formed when it was in its mother's womb.The same way all of us act according to the impressions that are in our brain from the day we entered our mother's womb.This way we carry the good and bad deeds of previous birth when we enter our mother's womb.The karma cycle starts here for this birth.For the good deeds we get comfort and for the bad deeds we get discomfort and misery.Moksha is the process by which we relieve ourselves.

Mahaswamigal was right to stick to shastram,sampradayam,saints from yesteryears...etc.But,i cannot be going in bullock carts,have farmers resort to using bullocks for tilling,.....there is advancement in terms of material progression.So,i changed to circumstances,despite my maternal side gurus being the Mahaswamigal.


>>2) There are Yogic traditions that do not belive in mantra, tantra or yantra. Some go by bijakshara (single syllable sounds), as in laya yoga, and are offered diksha by a guru to unlock the presence of the sound to harness it appropriately. Then there are yogic traditions that beleive in mantrasadhana and they too offer diksha to remove or mitigate previous negative energy of the person and unwind positive energy of the mantra. All of them pursue the shastras and all of them interepret it much the same way as do the brahmins, except for the varna by birth theory. To top it, all of them claim they are heeded for brahminhood. Would their ways then be tantamount to ridiculing the vedas ? Or did Sri Mahaperiaval refer to the atheists alone in the above saying (in quotes) ?<<

Different rivers ,ultimately merge back to sea.Paths are multifold,but the goal is same,to merge back to god,who is within for some and who is outside for some...and so on...



>>3) If the brahmins were to go back to varna dharma, quit as a whole lot from the mainstream workforce, and jolt other varnas into taking notice, what would be the effect then? Would a dalit who has become a judge be okay with going back to doing menial jobs? What would happen to his aspirations for himself and his children?<<

By definition,brahmin was allocated to do a particular chore in vedic period.Since that is busted now,its really a moot point.

>>End note:
I wholly respect Sri Mahaperiaval. I do believe He is right in His path. But I also believe all the other paths that have come into being over ages, also have their place under the sun. However, i am really confused and lost as regards the social aspect of the whole thing.<<

Even today,what the Mahaswamigal said is being followed,by a different nomenclature.Brahmins are still teaching.Vaishyas are still doing biz.Kshatriyas are still fighting.Shudras are still serving.Based on each ones chosen dharma.Some choose it,some are forced to choose,therein lies the difference now!

>>The above are just questions. Please do not hold anything against me as a person (am esp concerned after reading a particular thread). Just because someone raises these questions, please do not see it as anti-anything. If you as a brahmin had raised these questions, how wud the others react? Please treat this the same way. <<

Yes,good to have a disclaimer like this at the end,as immdly a dingbat will crop up and say,this title of this thread means entirely different and the threads got hijacked...khe khe :)

sb
 
This is a community site where we look at all aspects of problems faced by the Community.

There is a village in Karnataka of Sankethi Brahmins who migrated to Karnataka from Senkottai which was at that time in Travancore. This village is well known because all the residents speak in Sanskrit. Also all of them lead a life which is what it was generations ago.

A visit to the village is like a visit to our past. Like a time machine. Then you have to speak in Sanskrit too to really feel the spirit.

How are they able to do it? The economic foundation of this village is the large extent of arecanut fields which were donated to their ancestors by the then Maharaja.

There are many of us who wish we could go back to this stage. But then what about the livelihood? So for most of the community it is a Utopia or Shangrila.

Even in that village they are facing problems in continuing with their life style.

The only way any community can live in peace is to gain the acceptance of other communities.

I am happy to see Cho's Enge Brahmanan series on Jaya TV. Cho's explanations are very good and he is trying to explode some of the propaganda about the Brahmins. Do not miss it.
 
re

>>During a conversation on what is brahman, was told that brahmins in the past had also sought other professions. The person was of thot that if brahmins in the past had followed the path of the brahman, there wud have been many more schools and lineages as gothras established (though i was not sure i understood).<<

In the past,Lord Krishna was Yadu Caste,Chandra Vamshi..he was not a Brahmin,but yet Lord Krishna is fondly worshipped as Poorna Avataram.Sage Valmiki who wrote Ramayanam was not a Brahmin caste..Sage Viswamitrar who wrote Gayatri Mantram was not a Brahmin by caste.

>>After talking to a few others, it seems that the dharmasutras and puranas were written to allow such a transition (of change in social roles) to take place. The padmapurana for example allows a brahmin to take up the jobs of a kshatriya or a vaishya..but some dharmasutras prohibit it and class the vaishyas together as shudras, while some view them as a seperate entity..then tehre is quite a conflict regarding the self-contradictory nature of some portions of some dharmasutras as well...<<

Kala Bhairavar makes the changes in Time.Becoz it was easier to segregate people thru varnas for the rulers,it was done in the past.But now,its not practical.Though we still cling on to it.

>>Moreover it is said that Indra, Mitra, Varuna, etc mentioned in the vedas are diff from the ones mentioned in puranas. Indra gets defeated (rather often) by various (tribal ?) conglomerates such as nagas and asuras. In the Mbh, Krishna also apparently defeated Indra. Strangely we have no temples for Indra, Mitra, Varuna....some say the enlightened people of the east used the word "deva" more as a title or a self-designation; so when someone says the devas fought, won or lost, it makes sense...it wud be like saying a group that uses a title meaning a king, like say in the present time, won or lost a particular tribal fight. Apparently there was more than one king / deva being named after the vedic elemental deity as Indra..<<

During Vedic times so many things got mentioned,but today so many are missing,that is how life is.Indra has got transformed to some other diety,i suppose :).Devas and asuras are still there.Devas are Indians and asuras are Pakis..khe khe..


>>And then it also appears that the missing portions of the vedas may hold the clue to some dilemmas we face today...where goes scriptural adherence in such a situation?<<

Many things were lost during 1000 years of Muslim & Christian terrorism.Muslims simply destroyed and broke things as they are doing to Bamian Buddha statues even today.Christians on the other hand are sophisticated lot,they introduce warped up theories,confuse people for generations,and hindus do catch up...like how the name hindu itself is not from vedic time...

sb
 
This is the original article posted on 09-26-2007. I will post some of the comments later.

Original Article.

The Brahmins of the early Vedic period who first thought of the Varnashrama system were great Rishis. Their idea of the system was entirely different from what it turned out to be later.

The rigid Varna system was not their idea. It is a total corruption of the original concept.

The Varna Dharma as originally envisaged classified the Brahmins as an Intellectual class. The corrupt caste system believes that you bacame a Brahmin by birth.

How was the Hindu society especially the Brahmins affected by the rigid caste system?

I am not talking about the divisions caused by it and the atrocities committed in its name. We have one too many books detailing all that. This thread is not about that.

There is no way to ensure that all the people born in the same family have 140+ IQ. When this is not true of any family it is foolish to think an entire community would consist of high IQ intellectuals. Again application varies from person to person. Even a high IQ is not suffecient.

Vedas are extremely difficult to learn and recite. There is a lot of emphasis on the pronunciation, utterance of letters, and intonation. This requires a more than average IQ and tremendous application.

There is write up about it here.

http://www.svbf.org/sringeri/journal.../chanting.html

In the early Vedic period only those who had these abilities were chosen for this job. Other than reciting the Vedas, they were expected to seek Brahman. That is why this class of people were called Brahmins or the seekers of Brahman.

They were chosen by their ability and not by birth.

Our caste system was not like the Japanese caste syatem, which placed the Samuarais (Warriors) at the top.

In later years the caste system became more rigid and only those who were Brahmins by birth were expected to recite the Vedas.

What the caste system did not take into account was that you can not group people like you group inanimate things. No two human being are the same.

This had an unintended effect on the community. Not all the children of Brahmins could recite the Vedas properly. Their mental abilities also varied. Many of them did not have the right aptitude. A life devoted to seeking the Brahman was not everybody's cup of tea.

It was easier for the Kshatriyas. You can become a king even if you are not courageous and are not a good fighter.

But learning of the Vedas is not like that. You either have the ability or you do not. There is no midway. We find a number of Purohits who do not know how to recite the Mantras properly or have knowledge about the rituals even after years of training.

In the engineering college we had to learn carpentary. In spite of my best efforts I could not master it. My teacher was from the carpenter community. One day I remarked to him that it was easy for him because he is born in the community. He told that he learnt it only by years of practice and not by birth and said that his son is not a good carpenter in spite of his best efforts to teach him carpentary.

The Brahmins who by birth did not have the mental abilities to recite the Vedas had to choose some other professsion.

But the Varna Dharma prevented that. Though some of the smiritis did speak of the professions which a Brahmin could take up when he is in distress it was not practical.

The injunction about the Brahmins not seeking riches applied only to the Veda reciting Brahmins who were very happy seeking Brahman. People respected them and gave them Dhana.

But what about the Brahmin who could not recite the Vedas? Should he idle away his time cursing the fate which has made him take birth in a Brahmin family? He was neither respected nor given Dhana.

The Brahmins started seeking ways and means of earning a living. Even 1000 years back they had sought other professions as evidenced by the drama Mricchakatika where the hero Charudatta is a merchant. The thief in the play is also a Brahmin. This play also revals a startling fact that only Male Brahmins were allowed to speak Sanskrit. Women and other castes were not allowed to even speak Sanskrit. What a horrible system?

Varna Dharma which bound people to a particular profession enslaved the Brahmins and other castes and prevented individuals from developing according to their own aptitude and ability.

Throughout history it is seen that progress has been made only by individual efforts. Individuals have changed the society. Society in general does not like changes. But individuals by their efforts have brought about a change. Hinduism more than any other religion emphasizes the individual. It always talks about the relationship between the individual and the supreme God.

If the Brahmin community had confined themselves to what was enjoined by the Varna Dharma, they would have become extinct by now. The Brahmins have survived and prospered because all of them did not follow the Varna system.

The varna system reduced the Brahmins to a class of mendicants or worse.

Again Manu Smirti expressly forbids any men of the three twice-born castes from dwelling in any other country other than Aryavarta. Arya varta did not include the Deccan peninsula.

The brahmins broke this rule in order to survive.

I remember one of our respected Brahmin administrators speaking proudly in an interview that one of the herditary profesion of the Tamil Brahmins was Culinary art. I used to make an annual trip to Chennai during the Music season. It was not only the music, but also the food served by Arusuvai Natarajan and Jnanambica mess which attracted us.

Let us dump the varna system to the dust bin of history. Let us forget the racial theory that anyone is born superior because he was born in a community.

All the great Tamil Brahmins like Ramana Maharishi, Swami Sivananda, Ramnujam, C.V. Raman and a host of others became great due to their own efforts and not because they were born Brahmins.
 
Not sure this would be taken as being offensive, however am curious and am therefore putting forth something, mostly based on my conversation with one teacher (who btw was born a brahmin).

Any feedback / clarification wud greatly help with the malady of doubts am afflicted with as below :

1) A son inherits his parent's qualities, but does he inherit his parent's circumstances? If he has inherited a different set of circumstances or fate, wud that then mean he has inherited different samskaras (samskara context = so-called 'memory' imprints of past births), that are responsible for creating his current fate?

His qualities may be the same of his parents' and his family atmoshphere is certainly one part of the circumstances he has inherited. His inclination maybe towards veda vidya as well. But are his circumstances as a whole the same as his father's? Does he live in the same house as his father? Does he look exactly like his father? Does he behave exactly like his father? Does he marry at the same age as his father? Does the pattern of his own life exactly follow that of his father's? If his fate is different, then has he inherited a portion of karmic tendencies that is not his father's, but his own? If he has inherited a part of karma that is his own, then suppose his tendencies or samskaras as honed over the previous births, are towards the pursuation of wealth and his interest in matters of the spirit is either very low or just as an interest (but not to live in it fully), what would then a karma-bhrasta mean?

2) There are Yogic traditions that do not belive in mantra, tantra or yantra. Some go by bijakshara (single syllable sounds), as in laya yoga, and are offered diksha by a guru to unlock the presence of the sound to harness it appropriately. Then there are yogic traditions that beleive in mantrasadhana and they too offer diksha to remove or mitigate previous negative energy of the person and unwind positive energy of the mantra. All of them pursue the shastras and all of them interepret it much the same way as do the brahmins, except for the varna by birth theory. To top it, all of them claim they are heeded for brahminhood. Would their ways then be tantamount to ridiculing the vedas ? Or did Sri Mahaperiaval refer to the atheists alone in the above saying (in quotes) ?

3) If the brahmins were to go back to varna dharma, quit as a whole lot from the mainstream workforce, and jolt other varnas into taking notice, what would be the effect then? Would a dalit who has become a judge be okay with going back to doing menial jobs? What would happen to his aspirations for himself and his children?

End note:
I wholly respect Sri Mahaperiaval. I do believe He is right in His path. But I also believe all the other paths that have come into being over ages, also have their place under the sun. However, i am really confused and lost as regards the social aspect of the whole thing.

The above are just questions. Please do not hold anything against me as a person (am esp concerned after reading a particular thread). Just because someone raises these questions, please do not see it as anti-anything. If you as a brahmin had raised these questions, how wud the others react? Please treat this the same way.
Read the sentences in block letters. An apology to Bullies. It is sad that this forum has come to this stage where one has to be afraid of bullies.

Quoting from a post by Brahmanyan in this thread on 12/02/2007.

Of late, we find a new disturbing trend emerging in the Forum Posts due to some enthusiastic members trying to show their erudition by asking other members as to how and what they should write or discuss in this Forum.

This reminds me of the well known verse from Subhasishtam:

"Vidya dadaati vinayam. Vinaya dadaati paatrataam.
Paatratva dhanamapnoti. Danaat dharmam tatatsukham."

Learning begets humility; Humility gives character.
From character one gets wealth; From wealth one gets
righteousness and happiness.

Being Polite or humble, does not mean submissiveness, it is a noble quality of extending courtesy to others in words and deeds.
But now outright Bullying tactics. People expecting submissiveness and who can not tolerate any other view than their own.

Bullies do not make leaders. They are cowards at heart.
 
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If Paramacharya had answers to all the problems that the Tamil Brahmins are facing today, then how come even his followers have not accepted his advice? If his writings would have solved all the community's problems why are we in such a mess today?

What happens to the majority of the Tamil Brahmins who are striving to make both ends meet and who are not rich enough to buy peace. People who do not know or care what Brahman or Advaita is. This forum was created to address the problems of these people. Giving some amount of money will not solve everyone's problem.
 
Every one who goes to a temple does not go there just out of pure Bakthi. In the same way everyone who goes to school/college does not go just because of passion for knowledge. Same way, when people meet a seer there would also be only a few exceptions who go there for spiritual upliftment only. One can only take a horse to the water.

All that Maha Periayval had earnestly asked for was....just one hour of our time every day towards meaningful spiritual/vedic/traditional learning and practice. Is that something that we cannot do? Is that something that would push anyone to poverty or keep them in poverty? Is that something that does not allow us to pursue modern education? Is that something that would push us to ride bullock carts?

Great knowledge without humility is of course un-becoming. Bullying is of course bad. But, I have seen in many places in this world without participating, that people have been provoked (diplomatically), just because some one differed in thoughts. And having been hurt by provocation some one starts to retaliate. The retaliation has sometimes been spontaneous and not taking into account that it is being more hurtful than what they actually received. Thus the retaliation becomes bullying in the eyes of all. The provoker gets support and become a hero by sympathy vote (as is always for the most injured). The so called bully is further enraged. The saga goes on...Isn't this what we see everywhere in the world now a days? There are so many social issues like this, but if we opened our opinions on this here we would be jumping topics right?
 
Dear SB,

In one of your replies to me you have said, "When society one lives in has changed dramatically,its almost impossible to adhere to the wise Mahaswamigal sayings..."

I must admit you are 100% correct...for a person who wants to lead a material life ONLY. But, if we look at it from a middle path...pursue your dreams, goals or material needs...if you can be sure you are constructive and purposeful more than just material cravings....but make sure to devote just 1 hour every day for spiritual pursuit. The greater way to live as Ramakrishna said...do your work with one hand and hold on to the lord with the other. Like a maid servant taking good care of a child at the master's house, while constantly being reminded in mind and heart about her own child at home.

There are many societies around us. Not all would accept us and not all would reject us - what ever we do in life - particularly when it is deep inside our hearts and minds, the society doesn't even know.

When I was in college many years back, I knew almost all in my batch by name. Many were friends and some were pretty close and even till date. Each was a different kind. Some of them flamboyant, multi-skilled, intelligent, playful, cheerful, high scorers, low scorers, economically backward, the rich and so on. When we had completed college and were awaiting our results, I came to know that more than one third of my batch mates meditate. It took me a while to digest this fact. How no one even mentioned it during college. How no one else like me even realized these budding youngsters meditate.

That is one simple example of how people CAN be in the middle path.
 
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Mahaswamigal was asked to take leadership of Kanchi Matham,when he was in his tweens.Only Rama Rama,is the mantra which came to his mind,when he was proceeding to Kanchi from his hometown Villupuram.I owe with gratitude for this saint savant sage nadamadaum deivam...a peek he allowed me to witness the hoary past of vedic India.Yes,brahminical ways of life is very enduring and politics of the day cunningly exploited the loopholes of our dharma.Mahaswamigal acted as a custodian of our dharma and extolled us to follow the path lead by ancient seers.

Of course he has answeres for everything.But technology which grew leaps and bounds just made people lose their dharma,to some extent.Is technology a good thing?Yes and no.From time to time,we have experianced,what had appeared as good and fun,then later comes back to bite us.So,its a relative pain or pleasure.For me,i say with confidence,i am blessed.I am full of grace,as the great Mahaswamigal was a beacon of light to every strata of society not just brahmins.

His predeccessor has been doing yeoman social service,unparelled in the history of Kanchi Math.Sure,he is very controversial.But,he leads and is compassionate.

The Kazhagams which has fostered a culture is there for all to see and witness.The Kazhagams which extol Tamil heritage,culture,deliberately tried to do vasta -haranam to Jayalalitha in the Fort,that too in this day and age!Tuff as she is,taught all these enuch tamil men,that she can administer.But she herself committed the biggest folly and sin,by implicating with false charges to achaaryaals.

TN is like a rudderless boat which is getting tossed up and down by the forces of nature.

Education Education Education...entrepreneurship....joint ventures...encourage NRI...teach tamil...not that these are not being done but the competetion is hot,so TN should gear up and meet the challenge head on...clear the stink of cooum...remove the toilets in train,which makes sh*t fall in open atmosphere....inculcate hygenie education...give police the free hand to control masses like fleecing of auto rickshaw drivers...no booze shop near the vicinity of temples,schools...MUKA has to retire immdly...JJ has to retire immdly..these two should do prayaschittam for the sins committed...

sb

sb
 
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Dear SB,

Look one posting that was made just few minutes before yours. I guess I have answered some of your thoughts from your last posting.

SV,in school or college we all mingled and did our own things.But when professional competetion sprung up,it was based on pure acheivements.Thsi religion or caste were mainly for politics.I personally never underwent discrimination on account of these two factors,but they do play their parts in Indian life.

Varna/Caste system exists in India.Whether it harms or harmed or will harm,is a relative perception which varies from time to time.Some generation are sacrificed.In that,some families are sacrificed.In that some individuals are sacrificed.Its all a learning curve for all,so that majority people can live in peace.

sb
 
This forum is for Tamil Brahmins. The question has been raised in many threads about who is a Tamil Brahmin? It has been made clear time and again that there are no prerequisites for that. Communist, Atheist or anyone is welcome as long as he/she consider themselves to be part of the Tamil Brahmin community.

This is not acceptable to some of the members. They have posted their views.

But to bulldoze a view of a minority on everyone is wrong. Members should be able to post their views without fear of being insulted/bullied personally. Happy Hindu's posting reflects her fear. That is bad.

This forum was formed to discuss the problems facing the Tamil Brahmin community. Not for propagating the views of any Guru or Acharya. There are many forums for that.

I have been attacked repeatedly because I do not believe in the caste system. I consider it a the curse of Hinduism. That does not make me a non-Brahmin. If it was that easy to give up one's Brahminhood lot of people would take that route. The attempts of a leading Tamil Actor to distance himself from the community is amusing. When it comes to brasstacks someone will point out that he is a Brahmin.

Once you are born a Tamil Brahmin you can not undo that. You can divorce your wife, not your parents. And no one can excommunicate anyone from the Tamil Brahmin community in spite of all wishful thinking.

So let us post our views without any fear of being bullied.
 
Varna/Caste

The very coinage of Tamil and Brahmin,is indicative of a paraochial ethnic nature.Tamil is a language spoken majorly in Tamil Nadu,India.Brahmin are castes,apart from Vaishyas,Kshatriyas,Shudras.Lord Krishna/Vishnu says he is the sustainer of all!Lord Siva says he is the destroyer of all.Lord Brahmaa says he is the creator of all.The very fabric of Sanathana Dharma encompasses from the personality traits of the four varnas/castes.Which is being followed by majority Indians.But in couple of generation,either Sanathana Dharma will bring back people to its original fold,or people will become Muslims,Christians,Sikhs,Buddhists,Jains,....etc which are also from Sanathana Dharma only.Technological advances and material comforts,actually enhances one to be faithful in his/her chosen dharma.

sb
 
My article was posted when we did not have many categories. The threads were categorized later.

It has been made clear in the description of the category.

Philosophy and Scriptures
This section questions our current understanding of scriptures and existing practices. If you absolutely believe that our current ways are supreme and that traditions should not be questioned in any way this is NOT the thread for you. There is another thread in the Customs and Traditions section
.
 
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My my.....again and again....diplomatic provocation and outright retaliation. I am seeing someone being coined a bully here again. This is getting more and more a personal yudh. I have seen at least couple of other threads in the last few weeks getting wasted for the same people's immature fighting. If that is the case, why don't you do it over an email or phone or even in person. Spare the forum please!!!

Remember we will all be dead years from now. But the words we leave here may be read by generations to come. Even if we coin our words diplomatically, there will be people who will see through it and understand the real meaning and provocation behind it. Some will write back, like me, even though we are not part of this. Many will keep quiet. Many will go away silently.

I guess I am going to spare myself of this forum if I don't see an improvement in the weeks to come.

Nature's law is all about action and reaction. So the action/provoker takes equal responsibility as the reactor/ so called bully.

I am moving to silent mode for the next some time.
 
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