• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

How can India be a Superpower by 2025

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dear Sir,

You have quoted like this
"You may kindly remember that even in Valmiki Ramayana, there is a story about a rishi (
brahmin) so poor that he and his wife had no clothes to wear; the wife asks him to go to Ramapattabhisheka (originally planned by Dasaratha) and beg for some food and clothes on that occasion. So, Valmiki himself tries to tell us that not everything was so hunky dory as you imagine. The interpretation of sudra being "condemned to cry out throughout life because of his/her past karmas for which he/she was born in that low caste.", is also from the Braahmana texts which are coeval with the Upanishads. "

--First of all these are all not Brahmana texts since Valmiki is Rishi not Brahmin, Vishamitra also. Rama is also. Therefore there is no question brahmins creating these.

Shri Vignesh,

You are completely free to hold any kind of opinion on points such as the above. This forum is neither a school, nor a Paatashaalaa and so no one needs to change his/her views on any matter. But this is a forum for exchange of views and ideas; if some line of thought appears plausible and if it makes someone more ready to accept views which are contradictory to their own, then that is a good purpose served by this Forum. For example if someone tells you that there are flowers in this world which are many times the height of a man, you may not believe it if you had not seen such flowers or their pictures (photos). But once you are a little more open in your views, perhaps it will be easier to allow for things, logically possible, but of which we have no idea.

Coming to brass tacks here, you feel Ramayana, written by one Valmiki - a Nishaada or hunter -, Viswamitra - once a king who became a Rishi later on, were not brahmins and so Ramayana could not be a creation of brahmins. The story of Rama was a common lore among the people in the vedic times and we do not have any provable date of origin. But it (Ramayana) or at least the core story thereof existed in people's minds even before or during the lifetime of Gautama, the Buddha, seems accurate because we have a Dasaratha Jathaka, a story reportedly told by the Buddha in Jetavana for consoling a land owner who was greatly grieving his father's death. In this Buddhist version Rama Pandita, Sita and Lakkhana (Lakshmana) Pandita were siblings, children of King Dasaratha of Varanasi (and not Ayodhya). So, it appears that either the Valmiki Ramayana as we have it today, was composed after the Buddha's time, or, there were more than one version of the Rama story even during Buddha's lifetime. Hence there is no known historicity to the whole Rama episode; it could be folklore even based on memories of the very, very ancient past of humans in this sub-continent.

From all the available literary and epigraphic evidences there is no indication of an untouchable person (like a Nishaada) becoming a scholar, let alone a Rishi in those times till Buddha. If such a thing had really happened in those times, it would have been a great event and should have found a mention in at least some other literary piece, or some royal epigraphs. Since no such evidence is found, and since all the smriti texts, which are found to have been composed before or during Buddha's times, very strongly advocate the rigid caste system and untouchability, it is highly possible that there was no real hunter-turned Valmiki, but someone assumed the pen-name Valmiki, created the hunter-turned Rishi origin for the pen-name and composed the already prevalent Rama story into a long poem. We may argue, for the sake of argument, that a Nishada or hunter back in those old days could very well have composed (writing had most probably not been invented in those times) and taught some people, of whom the brahmins preserved the whole of the 23,000 slokas in memory, passed it on by rote until ultimately the whole thing could be written down on Palmyra leaves (palm-leaf writing started in India after the Christian Era). Why I say brahmins did the preservation and passing on, is because we have absolutely no shred of evidence about any other caste people having the knowledge, fluency in Sanskrit, and a line of successors who were occupied with the learning, recital, etc., of the Ramayana except the brahmins. If you say, "Valmiki is Rishi not Brahmin, Vishamitra also. Rama is also. Therefore there is no question brahmins creating these.", then the question that arises is, "If so, how do you think this long poem got transmitted till the time it could be committed to writing by someone?". I hope you will have a satisfactory answer.

Another point is british and muslims wants to divide and rule us. Therefore they implanated seeds of divisions through our scriptures by putting things that were not earlier told...This will become very debatable because right now only source i feel is the Veda which is not written can be taken as the proof. Otherwise all texts are distorted to make a divide among Indians for the foreign rulers to establish themselves in India. (This is my point of view but I don't think you are going to agree for this). Whatever had been written in my view is distorted by the people who came later according to their own thinking and commentaries.Some new, new stories are written and added.
Even some say Bhagavad Gita is an added one into Maha Bharatha because how come in a war, a person can give Upadesam?(They say there will not be any time before war)...Therefore this argument will go and go on without end with these type of sources. It is the psyche of every Indian and I'm also part of it only.


You write "british and muslims". Historically it was the muslims who started invading India first (Al Muhallab ibn Abi Suffrah was the first Muslim invader of the peninsula; it was around 664 C.E. in Multan, Punjab); after Muhallab,, the incursions by the Umayyad Caliphate continued for a century or so, till A.D.715 the date of death of Muhammad bin Qasim. Later the Ghaznavis came and conquered various parts. Then the Afghan conqueror Muhammad Ghori came and plundered and so on. But all these invaders, as far as historical evidence suggests, had no idea about the sub-continental population or its rigid caste system.

The later Muslim conquerors like the Delhi Sultanate, and then the Mughals also were invincible for any hindu king; they followed the route of compulsory conversion to Islam or death as their uniform policy. Conversions to Islam did take place from all strata of the society, but more from the lower castes converted to Islam because they stood to gain, not only their lives but many other benefits. Since they had no role in hinduism and were living as the exploited class, they had nothing to lose by becoming Muslims. In such a scenario, trying to sell the idea that the Muslim invaders wanted to "divide us" in order to "rule us"
can only be a figment of the hindutva group's imagination.

. . . . . to be continued







 
hindutva group's imagination.--- This is not Hindutva group of imagination. In fact I'm not a supporter of them or hater of anybody.But even vivekananda whom ever told about the distortion of the hindu history by foreign rulers can't be ruled out. This happened in every place where majority or the people who hold the might did that. How can you be so sure that this can't happen as though buddhist texts are the only original versions or all others are distorted. whatever written can be distorted at any time. Even if there is no mention of Jesus in Roman History, that does not mean that Jesus didn't exist. History and Historians, Archeology are subjects to variation from time to time. Therefore nothing can be taken as a very concrete proof or solid proof that this is the only thing happened. Instead of carrying these endless debates, we can concentrate on what is to be done now rather than discussing about past all the time.
 
hindutva group's imagination.--- This is not Hindutva group of imagination. In fact I'm not a supporter of them or hater of anybody.But even vivekananda whom ever told about the distortion of the hindu history by foreign rulers can't be ruled out. This happened in every place where majority or the people who hold the might did that. How can you be so sure that this can't happen as though buddhist texts are the only original versions or all others are distorted. whatever written can be distorted at any time. Even if there is no mention of Jesus in Roman History, that does not mean that Jesus didn't exist. History and Historians, Archeology are subjects to variation from time to time. Therefore nothing can be taken as a very concrete proof or solid proof that this is the only thing happened.


If "Therefore nothing can be taken as a very concrete proof or solid proof that this is the only thing happened." is correct, then even what Vivekananda said need not be accepted, is it not? What is your view? In that case we have nothing to boast about any "glorious past".

Instead of carrying these endless debates, we can concentrate on what is to be done now rather than discussing about past all the time.

I fully agree. I cited the Valmiki Ramayana episode only to show that even under RamRajya, not everything was hunky dory.
 
You are a very clever defence counsel I agree. Why I quoted vivekananda is a widely accepted figure even by the outside world and english educated youth. As far as varnashrama is concerned, it did not debar anybody from becoming a sanyasi or rishi. Therefore it is not correct that before buddha , a person from the fourth varna didn't become a rishi. The varna ashrama dharma and varna system are not rigid rules like caste. even the root word varna is vru which is according to one's own desire and efforts. Therefore it is up to you to take my point of view and reconsider your views. To frankly speak, I'm not well versed in reading all puranas,ithikasa but heard from several people and read in my younger years as stories. (Not like you quoting with verses and telling with canto's all these things). Still I feel, If you go through some impartial texts (not only Buddhist literatures), you can get a better view and a broaden view about our society's prevailed structures in ancient India. Just for logic sake, If the rishis who were herbivores lived in the forest, their needs could have been fulfilled in their place itself because a tree can give all their needs. Therefore there is no need for them to suppress other people to wield their influence over others or above the society. Rishi's lineage only became brahmins.Even According to Shri Chandrasekerandra swamigal, (Both the 4th varna as well as brahmins previously only lived in huts...Ref Deivathin Kural 5-6 Kindly go through)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest ads

Back
Top