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Hinduism's Conquest of the West

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American Swamijis or The Western Yogis

Sister Nivedita

The first Western Hindu who became very well known in India was sister Nivedita. She was a disciple of Swami Vivekananda. All of us know about her. But what is noteworthy is that she was the first Westerner to approve and take to Image worship. Read her book "Kali the Mother".

Sister Nivedita was officially invited to deliver a lecture on “Kali-worship” at the famous Kalighat Temple in Calcutta in 1899. It was a time when not everyone was allowed even to enter the temple. Nivedita was perhaps not the first European to declare herself in Public to be a Hindu at the beginning of the last century, but she was definitely one of the most prominent one.

Though this is not directly related to the topic, you may find these reminiscences of Swami Vivekananda by Sister Nivedita interesting.

http://www.vivekananda.net/PDFBooks/Reminiscences/Nivedita.html

Sir John Woodroffe (Arthur Avalon)

He was a Justice of the High court. Alongside his judicial duties he studied Sanskrit and Hindu philosophy and was especially interested in the Tantric Shakti system. He translated some twenty original Sanskrit texts under his pseudonym Arthur Avalon. He published and lectured prolifically on Indian philosophy and a wide range of Yoga and Tantra topics. His work helped to unleash in the West a deep and wide interest in Tantra, Hindu philosophy and Yogic practices.

Most of us would have read at least one of his books.

Swami Sivananda Radha (Swami Sivananda Radha Saraswati)

She was the first western woman to be initiated into the order of the Dasanami monks. Sister Nivedita did not formally become a Sannyasin. Even today the Ramakrishna order does not initiate women into formal Sannyasa. Swami Sivananda Radha was a disciple of Swami Sivananda. Shortly after the initiation Swami Sivananda sent her back to the West to "update the Teachings for the Western mind."

Upon her return to Canada, she worked unceasingly to fulfill the promise she had made to Sivananda. Her approach to the Hinduism was straightforward, accessible and intensely practical. Her goal was to help people discover the purpose of their lives and to guide them in achieving spiritual and emotional independence.

She thought that her dancing would be given up as part of her renunciation. However, Swami Sivananda had other ideas. He encouraged her to find the sacred in the dance, showing her that the body could be a spiritual tool. Prayer dance became part of her teachings helping students learn how to transform their emotions into devotion through the beautiful gestures of Indian dance.

The science of yoga is the heart of Swami Radha's teaching. Her writings include, Kundalini: Yoga for the West, Mantras: Words of Power, and Hatha Yoga the Hidden Language. These books are popular and distinctive because they clarify the sometimes enigmatic Hindu teachings in a way that can be understood and and applied in western daily life.

Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

Was born in Oakland, California and adopted Saivism as a young man. He travelled to India and Sri Lanka where he received initiation from Sage Yogaswami of Jaffna in 1949. In the 1970s he established a Hindu monastery in Kauai, Hawaii and founded the magazine "Hinduism Today". The author of many books on Hinduism and metaphysics, Subramuniyaswami was one of the most prominent faces of Hinduism during the last two decades of the 20th century.

He was a pioneer and also of great interest to Tamil Brahmins because he was a Shaiva and his teachings are based on Saiva Siddhanta.

Professor Klaus Klostermaier, one of the world's leading specialists on Hindu studies, said in his A Survey of Hinduism:

"Sivaya Subramuniyaswami ... did much to propagate a kind of reformed Saivism through his books. As founder-editor of Hinduism Today, an illustrated monthly, he became the single-most advocate of Hinduism outside India. His Himalayan Academy trains Indian and Western Hindu monks and his Hindu Heritage Endowment provides a source of income especially for priests belonging to the Saiva Siddhanta sampradaya worldwide. Subramuniya was honored and recognized by Hindu leaders in India and broad."
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In another aspect he is different from all other teachers. He believed in conversion to Hinduism and his book "How to Become a (Better) Hindu" is a must read for every Hindu.

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/

The entire book is on line free. All his books are available on line free.

He was acclaimed by both Indians and westerners. He was totally accepted by the Indians. If you look at his photograph the only word which comes to your mind "Shivap Pazham".

1986 - New Delhi's World Religious Parliament named him one of five modern-day Jagadacharyas, world teachers, for his international efforts in promoting and chronicling a Hindu renaissance.

1993 - Chicago: at the centenary Parliament of the World's Religions, he was elected one of three presidents, along with Swami Chidananda Saraswati of the Divine Life Society and Mata Amritanandamayi, to represent Hinduism at the Presidents' assembly, a core group of 25 men and women voicing the needs of world faiths.

1995 - Delhi, the World Religious Parliament bestowed on him the title Dharmachakra for his remarkable publications.

1998 - The Vishva Hindu Parishad of Kerala sent an envoy to Kauai to honor and recognize him as the "Hindu Voice of the Century."

You can read the magazine "Hinduism today" here. The subscription is free.

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/

Sri Daya Mata

The current president and Sanghamata (Mother of the Society) of the Self-Realization Fellowship (SRF Inc.) Los Angeles and the Yogoda Satsanga (YSS Inc.) Society in India.

She written three books: Only Love': Living the Spiritual Life in a Changing World, Finding the Joy Within You: Personal Counsel for God Centered Living, and Enter the Quiet Heart: Creating a Loving Relationship with God.

Swami Agehananda Bharati

Originally from Vienna - Professor of Anthropology at Syracuse University for over 30 years. He was a respected academic Sanskritist, a prolific writer on religious subjects, and a monk in the Dasanami Sannyasi order.

His book "The Tantric tradition" is considered a classic on Tantra.

Swami Satyananda Saraswati

Author of Chandi Path, Kali Puja and many other books on Hinduism. A Dasanami Monk. He has an ashram in California. Unlike the other teachers he emphasizes ritualistic Hinduism especially Yagnas.

Most of his books are not available in India. Meant exclusively for American Hindus.

Ma Jaya Sati Bhagavati - Kashi Ashram

The first American Hindu Godwoman. She teaches from profound personal revelation, in the tradition of her teacher, Swami Nityananda of Ganeshpuri, and her Guru, Neem Karoli Baba.

Babaji Bob Kindler

Spiritual director of the Sarada Ramakrishna Vivekananda Association (SRV) of Oregon, San Francisco, and Hawaii. He is also the founder and Artistic director of Jai Ma Music which offers Sacred Arts events in U.S and other countries.

In addition to composing over 25 albums of devotional and instrumental music, Babaji is an author of many spiritual books. His published titles are:

None of them available in India. Meant exclusively for American Hindus.

Scholars who have helped spread Hinduism

Elizabeth Usha Harding - Author of "Kali, the Black Goddess of Dakshineswar". She has erected a Kali temple in Laguna Beach, California. Dakshineswari Kali.

Please see the virtual temple on the Internet.

http://www.kalimandir.org/Application/Homepage.aspx

Devadutta Kali - Author of "In Praise of the Goddess: The Devimahatmya and Its Meaning".

This is by no means a complete list.
 
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God Men/Women and teachers from India.

I am giving below a list of God Men/Women and teachers from India who have played a big role in Popularizing Hindu thoughts in the West.

Most of them are well known in India. The list is far from complete.

God Men/Women

Lord Swaminarayan. Though he passed away long back, his followers are very active especially in U.K.

Sathya Sai Baba

Sri Mataji Nirmala Devi ( Sahaja Yoga)

Neem Karoli Baba

Sri Shivabala Yogi Maharaj

Mata Amritanandamayi

Sree Maa of Khamakya (California)

Amma Karunamayi

Mother Meera ( Germany)

Teachers

Sri Chinmoy

Swami Muktananda (Siddha Yoga)

Sant Sri Asaramji Bapu

Sri Sri Ravishankar

Swami Ganapati Sachchidananda

Two of the organizations who have also been very active are

Arya Samaj

Brahmakumaris.

Two very important Western teachers were left out in my earlier post.

David Frawley ( Pundit Vamadeva Sastri)

Dedicated to the Vedas. Author of many books on Vedas, Yoga and Ayurveda. Founder and director of the American Institute for Vedic Studies.

Mike Magee ( Loknath Maharaj)

Guru of the Adinatha Sampradhya. Has translated a number of original Sanskrit manuscripts to English. Well known for his web site Tantrik Home Page. This web site, one of the oldest about Tantras offers a number of books on Tantra and innumerable articles on the various deities and their worship. An invaluable source. Based in Scotland.
 
Maa Kali --The Goddess of the Internet

If you goggle the names of the popular Gods/Goddesses of the Hindu pantheon, you will notice something strange and striking in the number of hits.

Kali ------- 74,200,000

Krishna -- 18,300,000

Shiva ----- 12,000,000

Durga ------- 3,090,000

Lalita -------- 1,130,000

Lalitha --------- 671,000

There are certain factors which do account for the large number of hits under the name Kali. There is Java Kali, game called Kali and a martial art form called Kali. However none of these are very popular. Again the names of other Gods/Goddesses are much more popular as personal names than Kali. The only personal names with Kali are Kali, Kaliappan and Kali Prasad. Even if you discount the hits by 50% because of these ( a very high figure), still you are left 37,100,000 hits. That is more than all the other Gods/Goddesses put together.

How come?

Kali in India

Contrary to the general perception of Kali worship being an exclusive Bengali phenomena, Kali is worshiped throughout India from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. Tamil Nadu has more Kali temples (some of them very old) than any other state. To name a few-- Thillai Kali in Chidambaram. Mathura Kaliamman in Thiruvacchur, Vekkaliamman, Urayur, Trichy, Vakra Kali Amman, Thiruvakkarai. In Kerala Bhadrakali is the most popular form of Devi worshipped.

Kali and the Under-privileged

Kali worship in India has been totally free of caste restrictions. She is the favorite deity of the poor and depressed classes. Many Tantras emphasize that there are no caste restrictions regarding her worship. Again many Tantras even say that there are no rules for Kali worship, and she can be approached by anyone. These have made Kali a Deity of the masses and the exclusivity which is generally present in Hinduism does not apply to her worship.

This view point is one of the reasons for her popularity in the West.

Kali in the West

Kali is the best known Hindu deity in the West. Because of her form and what she represents, she has generated a lot of interest.

Sri Ramakrishna Movement and Kali

The popularity of Kali started with the monks of the Sri Ramakrishna order. Sister Nivedita propounded worship of Kali and wrote a book"Kali my mother". Swami Vivekananda wrote poems on Kali. In all Vedanta books of the original disciples and also the earlier monks, you will find the Ishta Devata concept propounded and Kali identified with it. It is because Sri Ramakrishna was a Kali Bhakta. He repeatedly said "Kali is Brahman". The Ramakrishna maths celebrate Kali Puja every year on Diwali day. No one who is influenced by the Sri Ramakrishna Movement can ignore Kali.

The interest in Kali has led to interest in Shyama Sangeeth, a genre of Bengali folk music with devotional poems on Kali. The best known Shaktha poet was Ramprased Sen. This has led to the publication of many books like

Devoted to the Goddess : The Life and Work of Ramprasad, by Malcolm Mclean

Singing to the Goddess: Poems to Kali and Uma from Bengal, Ramprasad Sen, Translated by Rachel Fell McDermott

Grace and Mercy in Her Wild Hair : Selected Poems to the Mother Goddess, Ramprasad Sen.

Most of these books are by the devotees of Sri Ramakrishna and are meant for the western audience.

Tantras and Kali.

Kali is by far the most popular deity of the Tantras. People who were fascinated by the Tantras also came to know about Kali and her worship.

Feminism and Kali

Kali is often represented as the wild one whom no-one could control and also totally independent. This imagery has a fascination for feminists according to whom Kali is the ultimate feminist. Sakthism is the only religion which propagates the idea of a female Principle being the Ultimate Reality. Kali being the most prominent Deity in Sakthism became the favorite of the feminists.

This phenomena has been investigated by Rachel Fell McDermott, Professor of Hinduism at Barnard College. The interview with her ( Link to the interview given at the end of the post) explains this.

Kali and Wicca religion

The Wiccan religion considers Kali as one of their major deities. This is the only case where another religion has accepted a Hindu deity. The largest number of followers of the Wiccan religion are in U.S. Their conception of the Mother Goddess is almost the same as that of the Sakthas in India.

This is best illustrated by a poem from a Wiccan web site. I have given only the last few lines.

I am the fire that kisses the shackles away. I am the cauldron in which all opposites grow to know each other in Truth. I am the web which connects all things.

I am the Healer of all wounds, the Warrior who rights all wrongs in their Time.

I make the weak strong. I make the arrogant humble. I raise up the oppressed and empower the disenfranchised. I am Justice tempered with Mercy.

Most importantly, child, I am you. I am part of you, and I am within you. Seek me within and without, and you will be strong. Know me. Venture into the dark so that you may awaken to Balance, Illumination, and Wholeness. Take my Love with you everywhere and find the Power within to be who you wish.
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The source of the poem is not known. Some people have claimed that it is from an old Sanskrit poem.

Wicca is about Witchcraft viz. magic. and Kali is Magic.

In 1996 there was a conference on "Encountering Kali: Cultural Understanding at the Extremes" at Barnard College,Columbia University, New York. The papers presented at this conference have been brought out as a book "Encountering Kali, in the Margins, at the Center,in the West". This an extremely interesting book. In this book there is a paper on Kali's New Frontiers: A Hindu Goddess on the Internet By Rachel Fell McDermott.

Here is an interview with Rachel Fell McDermott about the book. This gives you an idea about the image of Kali in the west and some of the reasons for her popularity..

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2003/09/The-Two-Faces-Of-Kali.aspx?p=1

The vision of Kali in India particularly Bengal and the west are different. This is also true of Hinduism in general. In my next post We will see how Hinduism and also Kali are perceived in India and the west and the consequences of these different perceptions. This is mentioned by Rachel Fell McDermott in her interview.
 
Perception of Hinduism in the West and its Fallacies. - I

Most books on Hinduism start with the categorization of Hinduism into sects. Division into groups or denominations is the basis of Islam, Buddhism and Jainism. Shia, Sunni, Mahayana, Hinayana, Vajrayana, Swetambar, Digambar. Christianity has hundreds of denominations. So people tend to assume that Hinduism is also divided into sects. This is text book theory which is often supported in books written by Indians also.

But does it exist? The basic principle of the one God sects is that there is only one supreme Deity. That is the the deity of the sect. This is the basic principle of Vaishnavism, Veera Saivism. O. K. We have Vaishnavism. But what about Saivas, Sakthas, Kaumaras, Souryas and Ganapatyas. The last three have disappeared. Please do not claim that all worshippers of Murugan are Kaumaras. Do they not worship Shiva, Ganapathy and Devi? The only two Saiva sects which still exist in India are the Saiva Siddhanta and Veera Saivas. Saiva Siddhanta is restricted to Tamil Nadu and Veera Saivism to Karnataka. Tamil Brahmins, the smart people that they are, talk about Smarta religion. This is an exclusive religion of the south Indian particularly Tamil Brahmins. Take the Bengalis. They can be divided into Vaishnavites and non Vaishnavites. The non-Vaishnavites form the overwhelming majority. They worship Devi. But not exclusively. They are not Sakthas. They worship Siva and Krishna also. Take for example Sri Ramakrishna. His family deity was Raguveer(Krishna). He worshipped Kali, Krishna and Shiva. Most of the Indians today fall in this eclectic, non sectarian category. But you will read in books about Bengal being a Saktha country.

Again the vast majority of Krishna worshippers are not Vaishnavites. Almost all the people in Kerala worship Guruvayurappan (Krishna). But there are very few Vaishnavites in Kerala. The temples in Guruvayur, Pandharpur, Puri and Bhadrinath are not Vaishnavite temples.

Even many Indians believe in this sectarian theory.

Adding to the confusion is the propaganda of the Hare Krishna organization who propagate sectarianism. Their view of Hinduism is one which is divided into water tight compartments like Saivism, Sakthism etc.

This concept of sectarian Hinduism also suited many of the Indian Gurus. By becoming a follower of the Guru and sticking to the practice laid down by the Guru you became a member of the particular sect.

This view and other factors made many Hindus adapt the name of Sanathana Dharma. We will see how this word evolved and how it is interpreted by different groups in the West and India.

I am sure many of our members will have a particular view point based on their knowledge and experience.
 
This concept of sectarian Hinduism also suited many of the Indian Gurus. By becoming a follower of the Guru and sticking to the practice laid down by the Guru you became a member of the particular sect.
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This seems to be more the case...

Maybe the one reason could be that each had a vision of the true path... also individual charisma matters...

It seems to be a kind of evolution; when we look at all the various schools from a macro level, then more or less, they all seem to worship one or more from within the conglomerate set of deities... which are inter-connected to each other either through a Purana, Ithihasa or the Vedas and Upanishads... Again there are sub-deities (like the ellai deivam or kaval deivam) which are also seen as manifestations at a local level...

The abrahamic religions differ in that they seem to have no connection with our set of deities...

But within this complex network, they all aim for one goal - liberation... and that is what makes it an eternal truth and probably the name sanathana dharma.

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?...tana&country_ID=&trans=Translate&direction=AU

The translation of this literal infers "eternal" or "forever"...

And hence sanatana dharma could mean the religion which upholds the eternal truth...
 
I have not come to Sanathana Dharma which will be my next post. It is quite interesting to see the different interpretations. We are concerned only with what it means in practical life in the West and not the spiritual meaning.
 
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The main divisions of Hinduism today are Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Smartism and Shaktism. The vast majority of present day Hindus can be categorized under one of these four groups, although there are many other, partly overlapping, allegiances and denominations.

The vast majority of present day Hindus can be categorized under one of these four groups, although there are many other, partly overlapping, allegiances and denominations. McDaniel (2007) distinguishes six more generic "types" of Hinduism, in an attempt to accommodate a variety of views on a rather complex object:


Quote from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism

The tendency of the scholars to categorize everything is shown above. Can anyone categorize Hindus like that. Again very few western scholars are aware of many facts like that historically the Bhakti Movement started with the Saiva Nayanmars.

If you take the Tamil Brahmins, they can not be strictly classified as Vedantic since they also follow the Purva Mimansa rituals. They can be included in all the categories. Hinduism is an eclectic religion. But here even Smartas are not called eclectic.

Again the so called Folk Hinduism does not take into account the fact that many Hindu deities are of tribal origin. The folk deities need not be pre-historic. An example is Ayyappan. The evolution of this God from the Kaval Dhaivams of Tamil Nadu is not documented.

What do you think? This what I wanted the viewers to understand and comment about.
We know and read a lot about the different interpretations of scriptures, discussion about nature of Brahman etc. But how many of us know about the Hinduism as it exists today. Hinduism that is being followed by the common man?
 
This is basically a historical thread with a new perspective. In fact when we get into the use of the terms Sanatana Dharna, Vedism etc. by different groups it will get more complicated. Explanation of these terms in detail and discussions about these belong to Religious discussions and not history. I will be talking later about how historically.the terms evolved
 
Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji,

I have caught up with all the postings in this thread. What a tour de force!

I also thank Srimathi HH Ji and Sri MM Ji for their thoughtful contributions.

As Toqueville's writings on the USA has been studied and examined over a long time by the Americans to understand who they are, so do we need to listen to the new comers to our religion to understand who we are.

Please keep the posting coming.

Regards,
KRS
 
Vedanta, Yoga, Meditation Et. al

In the last 150 years Hindus have tried to define and redefine their religion. This is especially true of the teachers who went to West to preach the ideas of Hinduism. Since Hinduism is very vast, the teachers only preached those ideas with which they were familiar.This is true of any Guru who teaches only the path through which he/she has attained realization.

Swami Vivekananda was the first Indian to bring the Hindu ideas to the West. He formed the Ramakrishna Mission and it became a movement. But right from the inception The Ramakrishna Mission has been talking about the spread of Vedanta. Their missions are often called Vedanta centers. But their Vedanta did include the concept of Ishta Devata and worship of MAA Kali in particular because Sri Ramakrishna was a devotee of Maa Kali. So the Vedanta advocated (at least initially) by the Ramakrishna Mission included Bhakti and also certain aspects of Tantra.

Swami Vivekananda himself set the trend when he went to Amarnath as a pure Saivite Monk and again when he did Kanya Puja to a Muslim girl in Kashmir. He defended Idol worship. The Ramakrishna centers even now conduct Kali Puja on Dipavali day. Kanya Puja is done on Durgashtami day during the Navaratri celebrations at Belur math.

The definition of Vedanta by the Ramakrishna Mission had unintended consequences. It was called Advaita Vedanta. Most people in the West started associating Vedanta with only Advaita. This is not true. Vedanta means the knowledge of the Upanishads and all Upanishads do not preach Advaita. Even sectarian Upanishads like the Saktha Upanishads do exist.

Paramahamsa Yogananda preached Yoga. He called it Kriya Yoga. Later Gurus and teachers followed his example. Now most of the Gurus claim to be teaching Yoga and meditation.

Ramana Maharishi's followers preach pure Advaita.Some of Punjaji's followers even talk about non-Hindu Advaita Vedanta.

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi became famous for Transcendal Meditation. Though it is nothing but a well known form of Hindu meditation, he presented it as a non- Hindu Meditation exclusively for self-improvement. Later on he started propagating Ayur Veda, Vasthu (Maharishi Sthapatya Veda) and astrology.

Then there are God-men/women like Sathya Sai Baba who do not mention any religion though they are considered Hindus.

But none of the above say they are preaching Hindu religion. Why?

You have to understand the reasons for this. This would also enable us to understand why there were very few formal conversions to Hindu religion. And also why there are many Indians in the West and India who are not very happy about this phenomena.

You can follow the ideas of Vedanta, Yoga and T.M without getting converted to Hinduism. This allows Christians to continue to remain in their religion while practicing Hindu ideas and practices. This finds easier acceptance than the formal conversion where you have to break with your original religion.

The only people who insist on a break with the existing religion are The Saiva Siddhanta church of Sivaya Subramuniyaswami and the Hare Krishna movement. Both these are sectarian. Saiva Siddhanta and Vaishnavism.

Some of the detractors of the Indian Gurus have called them chameleon Swamijis. They are not Hindus in U.S but change to Hindus in India.

The Indians who migrated to the U.S also brought in their own ideas of Hinduism. Their ideas were restricted by their regional, language, and caste affiliations.

These different terms being used to denote Hinduism led to some intellectuals to try to find out a common name. We will see about the evolution of these names and how the very same term is being interpreted differently by different groups.

What I have stated above is bare facts. There could be a discussion about whether these are correct interpretations are not. But that is not part of this historical narrative.

Please post if there are some factual errors.
 
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I just post.... no need to reply...

Nacchinarkiniyan said:
In the last 150 years Hindus have tried to define and redefine their religion. This is especially true of the teachers who went to West to preach the ideas of Hinduism. Since Hinduism is very vast, the teachers only preached those ideas with which they were familiar.

till this point is a good observation.

This is true of any Guru who teaches only the path through which he/she has attained realization.

well - this is subject to some clarifications. For Realization there is only one way. Whoever forms cults , they were at the best trying to keep the attention of the deep quest of the seeker afloat.

QED - Other cults haven't reached the ashore, but they strive for that.

Swami Vivekananda was the first Indian to bring the Hindu ideas to the West. He formed the Ramakrishna Mission and it became a movement. But right from the inception The Ramakrishna Mission has been talking about the spread of Vedanta. Their missions are often called Vedanta centers. But their Vedanta did include the concept of Ishta Devata and worship of MAA Kali in particular because Sri Ramakrishna was a devotee of Maa Kali. So the Vedanta advocated (at least initially) by the Ramakrishna Mission included Bhakti and also certain aspects of Tantra.

hats off to swamiji...

Swami Vivekananda himself set the trend when he went to Amarnath as a pure Saivite Monk and again when he did Kanya Puja to a Muslim girl in Kashmir. He defended Idol worship. The Ramakrishna centers even now conduct Kali Puja on Dipavali day. Kanya Puja is done on Durgashtami day during the Navaratri celebrations at Belur math.

for a vedanti , prayer in any form is acceptable....

The definition of Vedanta by the Ramakrishna Mission had unintended consequences. It was called Advaita Vedanta. Most people in the West started associating Vedanta with only Advaita. This is not true. Vedanta means the knowledge of the Upanishads and all Upanishads do not preach Advaita. Even sectarian Upanishads like the Saktha Upanishads do exist.

This went off tangently...All Upanishads teach only Advaita. If one analyze the term UPANISHAD - it will be apparent.

Ofcourse there are different interpretation, But Swamiji's interpretation is the only correct derivation. Others wrongly interpret.

See by effort - you won't get Gnana , only Bhoga is possible.

Meditation of a deity is a Kriya Sadhana - meaning a manasika kriya, which will give some siddhis for the practitioner, but not Gnana.

Sage Naradha, mastered all arts and tantras but is still devoid of Gnana - so Sananth Kumaras taught Sage Naradha the Gnana - this is told in one Upanishad - I couldn't recollect now.

Paramahamsa Yogananda preached Yoga. He called it Kriya Yoga. Later Gurus and teachers followed his example. Now most of the Gurus claim to be teaching Yoga and meditation.

Ramana Maharishi's followers preach pure Advaita.Some of Punjaji's followers even talk about non-Hindu Advaita Vedanta.

Once the student understood the Advaita - he doesn't need any path , be it Hindu or any other - For him he has reached the destiny. the path is not at all relevant to him.

The path is needed only for un-enlightened beings. The path needs to be time-tested and not out of someone's fancy. That's why the importance of PATH is highlighted by various Aacharyals. In particular BP mention the importance of the path in his Bhashyams.


Maharishi Mahesh Yogi became famous for Transcendal Meditation. Though it is nothing but a well known form of Hindu meditation, he presented it as a non- Hindu Meditation exclusively for self-improvement. Later on he started propagating Ayur Veda, Vasthu (Maharishi Sthapatya Veda) and astrology.

Then there are God-men/women like Sathya Sai Baba who do not mention any religion though they are considered Hindus.

But none of the above say they are preaching Hindu religion. Why?

cause - vedanta can be understood by any rational being, meditation being a manasika kriya is also universal. Yoga - the physical posture is also universal.

it is like technology - computer is universal,

so no need followers or sectarianism . that's why the name is sanatana dharma.

You have to understand the reasons for this. This would also enable us to understand why there were very few formal conversions to Hindu religion. And also why there are many Indians in the West and India who are not very happy about this phenomena.

that means they don't understand.

You can follow the ideas of Vedanta, Yoga and T.M without getting converted to Hinduism. This allows Christians to continue to remain in their religion while practicing Hindu ideas and practices. This finds easier acceptance than the formal conversion where you have to break with your original religion.

the coinage "HINDU" is a invented one by one group. the term native is more appropriate.

The only people who insist on a break with the existing religion are The Saiva Siddhanta church of Sivaya Subramuniyaswami and the Hare Krishna movement. Both these are sectarian. Saiva Siddhanta and Vaishnavism.

because they teach tantra - there goal is "kailasam"/Vaikundam. the manasika kriya should be reinforced with kayika for the effectiveness.

Some of the detractors of the Indian Gurus have called them chameleon Swamijis. They are not Hindus in U.S but change to Hindus in India.

they don't fully understand

The Indians who migrated to the U.S also brought in their own ideas of Hinduism. Their ideas were restricted by their regional, language, and caste affiliations.

These different terms being used to denote Hinduism led to some intellectuals to try to find out a common name. We will see about the evolution of these names and how the very same term is being interpreted differently by different groups.

What I have stated above is bare facts. There could be a discussion about whether these are correct interpretations are not. But that is not part of this historical narrative.

Please post if there are some factual errors.
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Hope Sri N-ji will reply to the above.

i have just one Q on advaita for you:

Does the atman on moksha become one with the supreme one and have the power to run the universe?

(btw, am coming from the same angle as Sri Adi Shankara's brahma-sutra and doing this the "theory" way).
 
there is no becoming , aatma is already aatma.

power is maya - so of no real use to a gnani.

happy is not so happy about me - i thought
 
the context of power or becoming here was not meant to be maya. i thot that was understood. it was meant to be karma and its way the universe is run.

question) if aatma is already aatma, what is the atma upon death when it is without a body? [asked in the context of nature(lessness) of atma or any context that may occur to you].

there is no necessity for anyone to be happy or unhappy with anyone, esp if they do not know them personally. this is a nice playground. we play out our diff selves. at the end of the day, we go back home to our true selves.
 
happyhindu said:
Hope Sri N-ji will reply to the above.

i have just one Q on advaita for you:

Does the atman on moksha become one with the supreme one and have the power to run the universe?

(btw, am coming from the same angle as Sri Adi Shankara's brahma-sutra and doing this the "theory" way).
Click to expand...
hi happy hindu
i think you are rite...in brahmasutra...tatvasamanvayaad sutra deals with
above theory..

regards
tbs
 
after death or before death - aatma is aatma - without attributes - always present.

this is the subject matter of Brahma Sutra - Why you ask me?
 
This is history. These are not my views, but the views of the different groups. These views of different groups by themselves can form a matter of religious discussion. I have discussed this in many forums on the net and outside. It is not the question of who is right or who is wrong. But to understand the consequences of these different opinions, we have to know the different view points.

For a detailed discussion on the various aspects of Hinduism Audarya Fellowship forum is good. They have copied many of my postings on the net ( under various pseudonyms). Sometimes out of context also.

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/
 
I am going to say here something that may hurt some peoples' sentiments. But so be it. I want the young folks to understand what I am saying.

What Sri mm ji posted above interpersing on what Sri Nacchinarkinyan Ji has said is the absolute truth. Yes, you have heard it. It is the absolute truth if you agree with his PHILOSOPHY.

His unequivocal stance on Hinduism, with Advaitha as the Ratna at the apex is understandable, but alas, it can not be defended. There are at least four other major philosophies (Vishistadwaitha, Dwaitha, Jainism and Budhism) that sprang out of the source of the same Vedas and Upanishads. While Advaitha is attractive, because of it's over encompassing philosophy, one would naturally think that this is the truth. Of course there are giants in Hinduism who have re-inforced such an idea.

But let me cite two instances in our scriptures where such an absolute belief as the truth are refuted:

1. The Lord says in Gita that if a person claims to know who the God is, he doesn't know Him. The corollary of this is that no one really knows about the nature of Him. When we say Saguna and Nirguna, we obviously are seperating our knowledge through our minds versus what is beyond our minds.

2. A stanza in Rg Veda casts doubt about whether anyone fully knows about the nature of Paramatman, in the section of the formation of the universe.

So, based on the above, as a Hindu, it tells me one single truth.
No one knows Him by mind.

Given this as the axiom, then it behooves us to believe what our souls wish to believe. But then we need to give equal respect to other beliefs too.

I believe that all beliefs and cultures have the source of the divine - I do not believe that any aspect of life on earth is not an aspect of the divine - and so I do not think that one sect of people are the exclusive knowers of this truth.

This is exactly why I do not believe in the application of Varna Dharma as birth based. As someone said, one would spurn even Shiva if he said that your left arm is actually your right arm. Such an assertion would go against what is natural.

I think that Sri mm ji, if I may say so without insulting him, unfortunately thinks that his particular sectarian Hindu philosophy is the only path towards salvation. He may be correct. But then because of the existence of so many other philosophies in the world today that are not monoistic, I would bet that there is a good chance he is wrong.

Therein lies our problem.

Regards,
KRS
 
i understand people apprehension , what will happen to me after death.

will i become nothing?

will i become something better that what i'm now?

how to ensure my life after death also to be safe and better off than what I'm today?

My IHA,PARA sowkiyam is depended on whom or what?

all this apprehension need to be correctly addressed , one needs a right PATH .

.............................................................................................
 
KRS-ji,

thankyou sir.

i now realize the futility of doing this.

TBS-ji,

Yes was trying to use the samanvayaad sutra and go the other way too. But when the mind is fixated, nothing changes it. So its futile really.

MM-ji,

No offence meant. Was just trying to show how vishisthadwaitha is present in Sri Adi Shankara's bhasyam on brahmasutra as well. But i will cease here. Theoretically there is only that much that can be discussed anyways. So no point.

Regards to all of you.
 
it is not a question of MY philosophy.

it is a question about what is the ultimate essence as said in our scriptures.

what is talked about is not "ultimate beilief " but "ultimate truth"

if one approach our scriptures without proper vinaya and guide , one can be easily bewildered and get confused.

simply because there are many contr-brands available in the market doesn't mean one shouldn't strive for Original Brands.

VA,Dvaita are all valid at certain level , but it is not the pinnacle.

I'm not at all bothered about adherents at different levels. In knowledge you have to reach the summit. there shouldn't be comprimise in that.
 
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