God Exists

[ShivKC]

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Sri. Balasubramanian Sir, Greetings.

I don't feel you hurt me or anyone else at all. I do read your opinions. I am quiter familiar with that too. I was under the impression I hurt your feelings by surprising you when I said "I have no faith in God". Since I felt I hurt your feelings, I drew your attention to one of my messages again.

If one has faith in God one will not realise God. One has to burn that faith too. This where I disagree with most persons. Realising God is not a difficult task. That is wrapped in all sorts of illusions. We should be preapred to cut away all the trimmings and cut away all the extras attached with the God concept. Then only we realises God.



Cheers!

sh.ragy, at the outsets it appears to me you are contradicting your own view.. in one post you say, you dont have faith, and in another you say, one has to realise. and in yet another you say, faith alone will not realise god, but got to burn faith.

could you please come clear on this, and counter sh.arunshankar or join with him and debate the rest.

looks like, you wanna be a cat on the wall here!!

may be, becos, you are well aware of the past, this thread had almost 5 seasons to reach this height, but many of those debated here hot are either axed or dead... should i say, you are playing safe here?

 

[C RAVI]

But again the role of religion in the world should not be underestimated.
Most of you would have read about the Darwin’s theory of evolution
Now what do you think of evolution of religion, why is that religion has taken a great hold of humanity, if like the non-believers say religion is not of much use, then the argument is according to Darwin’s theory of evolution most of which is of no use is discarded by evolutionary forces whereas here religion has not been discarded. So there is something in religion that has forced its evolution.
It would be nice to have discussion here on these lines

Dear Mr.Arun,

As shri Zebra has rightly said, lets replace Religion with Spirituality. Religions are nothing but differentiations in spiritual practices with their unique belief, that attempts to take humans closer to God.

The part of your post above, that I have highlighted, is well analyzed by you.

The simple reason for the evolution of spirituality is nothing but due to People's self honestly for one's sake, having some experiences in their life, at certain point of time. People see things other than what appears around them as an object, as ideas, as concepts and anything with scientific backing. Sooner or later people realizes certain things which they could not negate, though they could not convince their rational brains. At the end of the day, people try to make some honest attempts for one's sake and experience the difference. Such experiences makes them accept spirituality that is nothing but accepting GOD.

A person can say that he don't believe in GOD, no matter what he realy believes in.

A person can say that, I believe in Nature and the rules of the nature BUT not in God, no matter what he/she really feels and no matter what he/she really mean by the Rules of the Nature.

A person can say that, I am agnostic, no matter he/she would do all spiritual things similar to a Theists.

A person can say that, I am a free thinker, no matter what is his/her extent of free thinking and accepting the things that is convincing to him/her, other than Science and Technology.

A person can say that, God and Spirituality does not and can never support Scientific experiments, laboratory verification, validation and logical acceptations, no matter when and how he/she would adopt Spirituality.

A person can say that, Genes natural selection process and natural growth AND genes random mutation upward or downwords with negative and positive traits of each formations are based on systematic evolutions over millions of years, no matter what a person would Really realize and accept in terms of spirituality, owing to one's personal life time experiences, as a human with a potential brain.


The point is, Humans are considered to be the most elevated species on this Earth of Evolution ONLY because Humans can stretch their brain powers beyond what is existing physically and what can be seen with naked eyes. Only because Humans can feel and experience Metaphysical aspects of this existence, tap potent energies, grasp many positive vibrations and can Indentify the ideal way of survival, realizing the absolute meaning and purpose of one's life span. All, irrespective of What physical/verified/purposeful objects a Person can see, use, experience and be benefitted.

As long as a species called "HUMANS" exist on this land of Survival, Spirituality would ever be existing and would evolve for ever. The "Selfish Human Genes" certainly cannot negate God and Spirituality having been evolved over the years along with Spiritual energies and experiences.













Spirituality

 

[Raghy]

sh.ragy, at the outsets it appears to me you are contradicting your own view.. in one post you say, you dont have faith, and in another you say, one has to realise. and in yet another you say, faith alone will not realise god, but got to burn faith.

could you please come clear on this, and counter sh.arunshankar or join with him and debate the rest.

looks like, you wanna be a cat on the wall here!!

may be, becos, you are well aware of the past, this thread had almost 5 seasons to reach this height, but many of those debated here hot are either axed or dead... should i say, you are playing safe here?

Dear Sri. Shiv, Greetings.

I have no need to 'play safe' in the cyber world or in the real world. If I compete, either I am going to succeed or I am going to lose. I can happily take a beating with grace if I asked for it. So, that wouldn't bother me.

That quoted message was posted for a person who has faith in God. Just because I have no faith in God that does not mean I should not share views with someone who has faith in God. There was a time I too was regularly conducting prayers and had faith in God. But now I have no faith in God. In fact, I and my wife were discussing this exact post last night. My wife was so happy to see the link I posted ( X-Factor) when I reiterated uninhibited bold approach.

That does not mean I am a cat on the wall. Importantly, I live for myself. I am not here means in this forum or here that means in this world to prove any point. Now I realise I am here to enjoy myself. So, when I talk to someone who has faith in God, belief in God, I can say, I can share my point of vies that would comfort them.

Kindly don't forget, I am a humanist. Other human beings are more important for me. I am the least interested if God exists or not. If God exists, it is up to God to show himself/herself/itself to others; I don't think I have to spend my energy debating with someone to prove such existence. On the other hand, if God doesn't exist, nothing changes. Still I am not compelled to prove that non-existence.

No, I don't want to hide behind a crowd either. I just like to live my life as transparent, as honest and as peaceful as I possibly can. As you can see, I did not write that last sentence with finality; I made mistakes in life, hopefully I may not make one in the future. My life is that simple and I like to keep it that way.

I have no desire to join anyone in this discussion/debate. I respect everyone's view. There is no way in the world I can say anything new in this thread that had not been said by others before. As you rightly said, this thread has seen some of the very great persons sharing their views.

I know I amjust an alley cat. I am not trying to pose as a tiger, which I am not. My learning is very limited, my life is lived the way I please. So, who am I to debate with others?

I have no reason to debate with Sri. Arun Shanker or anyone else for that matter. I am just sharing my views. That's all.

Let me conclude this with an example. Just because I give detailed information about a temple nearby to a stranger does not make me a devotee; just because I give detailed information about how to make beer does not mean I love to drink beer ( I don't); just because ... I think you get the drift. So who the hell am I? I am someone who just enjoys life. Thankfully I am beyond good deed, bad deed, being good or bad, sin etc.

This may not make anything clear. But I am more than happy to discuss my own position if yourself or anyone else like to get more clarification about that.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Yes I purposely did not take the example of God
The idea was why to negate something that is unknown
Then comes the question unknown to whom you or me
Them comes the the method of debate to switch the burden of proof by saying appealing to ignorance is a fallacy.

Again the task of definition is not on the person who wants to negate it he need not define it, why should a person who wants to negate it define it all
the task to define is on the person who does not want to negate it

If I say I have seen Northern Light, you may keep saying that is a figment of my imagination. You can negate it, just because you can not visualize it. So negating without understanding my faith. You should not negate my view of my God. Similarly it does not bother me that you do not want to believe in my God. You have your view, and you are at liberty to believe what you want.
This is not a derogatory statement, it is a statement of reality.

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

It is not exactly so difficult as you make it out to be and may not be difficult in all cases.

For example, when I know the board is "snow white" in colour, I can deny it (the board) to be of any other colour, say red even if I do not have an iota of of an idea of the colour red, because the only possibility of the board being Red is when Red is equivalent to snow white and my knowledge of snow white colour precludes it have any shade of red.

white is known so you negate anything other than white like red or any unknown say`kacha mucha `

 

[arunshanker]

There is general consensus among various schools of thought that religion grew out of the brain early in history of human evolution.
The mechanism by which this happened is explained by two different ways, some adhere to one and other to another
The two mechanisms are one is simple natural selection and the other is religion is a by-product of other evolutionary forces may be some psychological mechanisms
Something like shifts in the function of a particular trait during evolution. For example, a trait can evolve because it served one particular function, but subsequently it may come to serve another. It is called exaptations are common in both anatomy and behaviour
So here we see that there are evolutionists who suggest functional features of religion and justify saying that that it has benefits such as adaptive features that are advantageous . The other sideof it is proposal that it has minimum function and religion can be viewed as a byproduct of interfaces among nonreligious perceptive adaptations. Some even say that it has maladaptive features that were functional in the past but are disadvantageous to fitness in the present.
But again as suggested by

It would be better to rephrase the term as "spiritual/spirituality" instead of religion because the spirituality is the core of any religion.

It is not so easy here as there are difference between spirituality and religion in terms of organised structure and leadership and many more
So when we talk about evolution of religion these things such as organised structure and leadership play an important role

As long as a species called "HUMANS" exist on this land of Survival, Spirituality would ever be existing and would evolve for ever.

This is a far reaching statement and we can’t be very sure of that but again you say ‘Spirituality would ever be existing” but what about religion.

To understand why religion has evolved, almost adapting the Darwin's theory can be understood if we know (i) Whether spirituality is innate or (ii) whether it is learnt consciously or unconsciously or sub consciously from parents, friends, peers, society etc.

Talking about if it is innate there is evidence that at least morality is innate
If it is so the advantage of spirituality over morality should be discerned in terms of survival

The point is, Humans are considered to be the most elevated species on this Earth of Evolution ONLY because Humans can stretch their brain powers beyond what is existing physically and what can be seen with naked eyes.

That is not entirely correct we cannot make a claim that “Humans are considered to be the most elevated species” I think you meant “evolved” if it is “elevated” then you have to explain what you mean by that
The reason you cite is “Humans can stretch their brain powers beyond what is existing physically and what can be seen with naked eyes” the problem is we do not know what the animals know
A virus is highly evolved in as much as it uses the minimum resource to survive
Humans are good in a particular ecological niche but what about other organisms
Plants can make their own food which is very great adaptation in terms of evolution
So each species has its ecological niche. And degree of evolution is a relative and comparative statement.

The "Selfish Human Genes" certainly cannot negate God and Spirituality having been evolved over the years along with Spiritual energies and experiences.

Genes do not negate anything here, it is social, cultural and cognitive aspects here

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Spirituality and religion have no doubt plays an important part as far as we are
concerned and it can be mentioned as a right combination. If one strictly follows,
life would always be cherishable. Our religion is not for hatred or enmity and
it wants everyone to live peaceful and maintain harmonious relations with
everyone. One can notice lot of teachings in this regard in our ancient
history and also in modern time noble philosophers preachings. These are all given
to us with a specific purpose. No doubt one leads life in a learning process till certain
stage until one gets maturity and experience.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[manoharkumar]

Conversation with God:

Me: God, can I ask You a question?
God: Sure
Me: Promise You won't get mad
God: I promise
Me: Why did You let so much stuff happen to me today?
God: What do u mean?
Me: Well, I woke up late
God: Yes
Me: My car took forever to start
God: Okay
Me: at lunch they made my sandwich wrong & I had to wait
God: Huummm
Me: On the way home, my phone went DEAD, just as I picked up a call
God: All right
Me: And on top of it all off, when I got home ~I just want to soak my feet in my new
foot massager & relax. BUT it wouldn't work!!! Nothing went right today! Why did
You do that?
God: Let me see, the death angel was at your bed this morning & I had to send one
of My Angels to battle him for your life. I let you sleep through that
Me (humbled): OH
GOD: I didn't let your car start because there was a drunk driver on your route that would have hit you if you were on the road.
Me: (ashamed)
God: The first person who made your sandwich today was sick & I didn't want you to catch what they have, I knew you couldn't afford to miss work.
Me (embarrassed):Okay
God: Your phone went dead bcuz the person that was calling was going to give false witness about what you said on that call, I didn't even let you talk to them so you would be covered.
Me (softly): I see God
God: Oh and that foot massager, it had a shortage that was going to throw out all of the power in your house tonight. I didn't think you wanted to be in the dark.
Me: I'm Sorry God
God: Don't be sorry, just learn to Trust Me.... in All things , the Good & the bad.
Me: I will trust You.
God: And don't doubt that My plan for your day is Always Better than your plan.
Me: I won't God. And let me just tell you God, Thank You for Everything today.
God: You're welcome child. It was just another day being your God and I Love looking after My Children...

Cheers!!

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Manohar Kumar, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post # 2658. I really wish life is that simple like that conversation between God and "Me". My dear friend, life is not that simple. Don't worry I belive in God or not; but God is within you my friend, if you believe in God. That God sends you signals all the time to you. In 'Uththava Gita' it is said that Paramatma is just an observer when Krsna talks about the two birds. But That God within you is not just an observer; but a protector. I was protected at least four times. I protected 3 times! Well, everytime it was certain death, my friend. My friend, if you belive in God, God is more closer than you think. You have to bring that God out of you so that, that God helps others too through you.

I know, I am throwing most members out of sync by my postings. I can't help it. I just felt like delivering such a message to Sri. Manohar Kumar tonight; I did.

Cheers!

 

[arunshanker]

This was your post in response to my statement that “The idea was why to negate something that is unknown”

If I say I have seen Northern Light, you may keep saying that is a figment of my imagination. You can negate it, just because you can not visualize it. So negating without understanding my faith. You should not negate my view of my God. Similarly it does not bother me that you do not want to believe in my God. You have your view, and you are at liberty to believe what you want.
This is not a derogatory statement, it is a statement of reality.

A lot of assumptions here and the analogy is with a thing that is known (Northern Light)

If I say I have seen Northern Light, you may keep saying that is a figment of my imagination.

Northern lights is a physical phenomenon, nothing unknown here
If you are ready to show it (Northern lights) there will be no problem visualising

So negating without understanding my faith.

There is no question of faith here in this example since there is a process for empirical evidence
You trying to analogize Northern lights with God here

 

[ozone]

So, the new formula is 'Believe in God, but dont have faith in him'?

 

[Raghy]

So, the new formula is 'Believe in God, but dont have faith in him'?

Sri. Ozone, Greetings.

Kindly make it clear who you are addressing your message, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[ozone]

Sri. Ozone, Greetings.

Kindly make it clear who you are addressing your message, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

Its an open question based on my observations.

 

[arunshanker]

So, the new formula is 'Believe in God, but dont have faith in him'?

belief can have probability associated with, for example I believe it will rain today
faith is emotional
Somthing like this
you can always believe in God but you may loose faith and regain it

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

one can say god is unknown to him but cannot say god is non_exist.
if one says that then the burden of proof is on him not on the one who says god exist.

 

[Raghy]

one can say god is unknown to him but cannot say god is non_exist.
if one says that then the burden of proof is on him not on the one who says god exist.

No sir. Burden of proof lies with the person who preaches existence. The one who sticks to non-existence doesn't have to prove non-existence.

Cheers!

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

there are many unknown exist . science still searching and what is unknown today will become known tomorrow .
so logically absence of evidence doesn't prove non existence

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

there are many unknown exist . science still searching and what is unknown today will become known tomorrow .
so logically absence of evidence doesn't prove non existence

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

he who claims existence got to prove what he said or claim only. likewise he who claims non existence loaded with the burden of proof on what he claim .

 

[Raghy]

there are many unknown exist . science still searching and what is unknown today will become known tomorrow .
so logically absence of evidence doesn't prove non existence

Sir, Greetings.

You don't seem to know what you are saying. You should not say "absence of evidence" if you believe in God. There are plenty evidences if you believe in God. My friend, you should never give away the ground.

This is for you - ( if you don't understand Tamizh, too bad!) - Illaadadondrum Illai - Thiruvilayadal - T.R. Mahalingam - YouTube

Cheers!

 

[C RAVI]

1) It is not so easy here as there are difference between spirituality and religion in terms of organised structure and leadership and many more
So when we talk about evolution of religion these things such as organised structure and leadership play an important role

2) This is a far reaching statement and we can’t be very sure of that but again you say ‘Spirituality would ever be existing” but what about religion.


3) That is not entirely correct we cannot make a claim that “Humans are considered to be the most elevated species” I think you meant “evolved” if it is “elevated” then you have to explain what you mean by that
The reason you cite is “Humans can stretch their brain powers beyond what is existing physically and what can be seen with naked eyes” the problem is we do not know what the animals know
A virus is highly evolved in as much as it uses the minimum resource to survive
Humans are good in a particular ecological niche but what about other organisms
Plants can make their own food which is very great adaptation in terms of evolution
So each species has its ecological niche. And degree of evolution is a relative and comparative statement.


4) Genes do not negate anything here, it is social, cultural and cognitive aspects here

Mr.Arunshankar,

Correlate my replies with the listing above, that is been quoted from your message in your post #2656


1) The bottom line of the subject is "GOD EXISTS" and not about which Religion is more organized and the most correct. Structural organization of Religious Body may keep evolving and adopt different strategies to propagate and sustain. This is not the matter of concern here. All that required is to ponder over "Existence of a Supreme Entity/A Supernatural Consciousness/A Supreme Being/God"

All the religion has its own spiritual path. Thus, it is relevant to rephrase the term Spiritual/Spirituality instead of religion. Religious bodies with different ideologies have come into existence carrying the fundamental Spiritual concepts. As such leadership comes to play, preaching happens and in certain cases Conversions are implemented.

What ever may happen, all these are happening carrying, Spirituality as the foundation.

So let us not complicate the topic by mixing it with different organized religious body that all have come into existence as per the needs of the specific groups belonging to specific Faith Systems. All the religious groups are aimed at realizing God and be into spirituality in each of their unique ways and means.


2) YES!!! It is my strong personal opinion that, Spirituality would continue to evolve and would ever be pervading across this Globe of Human Survival. I am not concerned about if Religious body would continue to exist and if yes which religion would continue to exist and which would dissolve for ever. I don't think this is the significant analyses when the matter of debate is just all about a Supreme Being/Supreme Conscious/God. We can name it the way we like, depending on the Faith System we are attached to. There is no need to surprise IF in another 100 years or so , a new religion comes to exist with different Spiritual Concepts. All in all the discussion should just revolve around the Supreme Being/Supreme Conscious/God and not about any Organized Religious Body, IMHO.

3) YES!!! Humans are the most elevated and gifted Species. Only Humans could explore the hidden/unseen/unrealized energies of the nature and could make so much of advancements. Humans could strengthen Medical Science and there by taking the best possible care of Humans themselves as well as Animals. Could make many progress in biological, micro biological, zoological, Botanical, mathematics, physics, chemistry, Aeronautical, Quantum Physics and in many more subjects and could make the best of everything.

I don't ever believe that, A Lion or a Dog or a Donkey or a Rose or a Mango Tree or a vegetable plant etc..etc can ever make such explorations, advancements and usage as humans do.

Humans are blessed and gifted to not only to tap the natural and verifiable energies BUT also to tap the spiritual energies and vibrations that all are comprehensive of metaphysical aspects of this creation.

Unlike Animals that all just survive by feeding themselves in specific manner, Humans are doing much more other than making money, feeding themselves and live for themselves.

Human species is the most elevated species indeed and that species can alone do anything on this land of survival as it progresses in due course of evolution, both in constructive and destructive manner.

The same Human species would keep evolving spiritually and would ever continue to be in spiritual path. As long as this land of survival exists and human species exists, spirituality would never be ruled out with its meaningfulness and validity.


4) Genes are influenced by behavioral patterns of the Human Society. A spiritual human society would continue to exist and as such Human genes would continue to carry forward the inherent elements of Spiritual Energies. As such, Human species would never negate God/Spirituality as long as it continues to exist.

 

[sarang]

Spirituality is theory and religion is practicals; both are necessary and co exist. Some are good in theory and some in practicals.

A friend of mine was very good in sound/ vibration related experiments - never used tuning forks in frequency related experiments, but even a simple fourier transform problem will stump him, even though the problem was related to sound waves.

 

[manoharkumar]

Don't worry I belive in God or not; but God is within you my friend

Dear Raghy Sir, Thanks. Though u spelt my name worng since i posted the number i take is as the message for me. Yes i am searching for him inside me only. Though i have started this search late in life ( waited till i completed my most important responsibility of marrying off my daughters-two of them- and seeing my son to collge ( in his last year-)... have firm belief on the almighty and am glad iam a believer and i happy and that there is someone to whom i am answerable makes me feel at peace in my heart, and i feel content.

Though we have so many forms of divinity i am waiting for that peace at heart when i can listen to the voice distinctly guiding me. I want to love all without malice, and cry when i see the wonderful world created by the supreme force every morning, day & night... Hope your wish come true that the almighty uses me to help others!! Cheers.

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Manohar Kumar, Greetings.

Though u spelt my name worng

Sorry about that. I edited that error.

Cheers!

 

[arunshanker]

1) The bottom line of the subject is "GOD EXISTS" and not about which Religion is more organized and the most correct. Structural organization of Religious Body may keep evolving and adopt different strategies to propagate and sustain. This is not the matter of concern here. All that required is to ponder over "Existence of a Supreme Entity/A Supernatural Consciousness/A Supreme Being/God"

OK if that is the rule in this thread
I would say the discussion line of the subject is “GOD EXISTS” rather than bottom line, bottom line saying which implies that it is affirmative and beyond discussion

All the religion has its own spiritual path. Thus, it is relevant to rephrase the term Spiritual/Spirituality instead of religion. Religious bodies with different ideologies have come into existence carrying the fundamental Spiritual concepts. As such leadership comes to play, preaching happens and in certain cases Conversions are implemented.

Agreed

So let us not complicate the topic by mixing it with different organized religious body that all have come into existence as per the needs of the specific groups belonging to specific Faith Systems. All the religious groups are aimed at realizing God and be into spirituality in each of their unique ways and means.

Agreed maybe I can start a thread on that subject

2) YES!!! It is my strong personal opinion that, Spirituality would continue to evolve and would ever be pervading across this Globe of Human Survival. I am not concerned about if Religious body would continue to exist and if yes which religion would continue to exist and which would dissolve for ever. I don't think this is the significant analyses when the matter of debate is just all about a Supreme Being/Supreme Conscious/God. We can name it the way we like, depending on the Faith System we are attached to. There is no need to surprise IF in another 100 years or so , a new religion comes to exist with different Spiritual Concepts. All in all the discussion should just revolve around the Supreme Being/Supreme Conscious/God and not about any Organized Religious Body, IMHO.

Agreed

3) YES!!! Humans are the most elevated and gifted Species. Only Humans could explore the hidden/unseen/unrealized energies of the nature and could make so much of advancements. Humans could strengthen Medical Science and there by taking the best possible care of Humans themselves as well as Animals. Could make many progress in biological, micro biological, zoological, Botanical, mathematics, physics, chemistry, Aeronautical, Quantum Physics and in many more subjects and could make the best of everything.

I did say that if you meant “elevated” then what you say is correct

4) Genes are influenced by behavioral patterns of the Human Society. A spiritual human society would continue to exist and as such Human genes would continue to carry forward the inherent elements of Spiritual Energies. As such, Human species would never negate God/Spirituality as long as it continues to exist.

It is moot here
As I see it Genes are not influenced by behavioural patterns of the Human Scoiety,
Genes influence behaviour
Genes do not carry inherent elements of Spiritual Energies,
To be put in the proper perspective, we can rephrase this as genes carry information to do with spiritual behaviour

. As such, Human species would never negate God/Spirituality as long as it continues to exist.

This is generalisation