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Evolution of Soul..

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The Nirguna Brahman (what I called at Atma/ParmAtma) is the part of the Supreme consciousness that is behind all this evolution, which we may know or may not know or only partly know through our knowledge (which is what Nasadiya suktam says).

This is not a speculation. This is from my understanding of vedic studies, which I have been blogging in http://vedabhasya.blogspot.com. This is a work-in-progress..

-TBT

-TBT

The very fact that you have written we may know or may not know or only partly know through our knowledge would only reinforce the fact that what ever we decipher or even choose to call our understanding is merely a speculation.
 
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Are not the concepts like individual Atmas and a Paramaatma trying unendingly to realize itself (it must be a really dullest-witted thing in the universe!), etc., man's own imagination trying to project his ego or ahamkaara on to everything else in his so-called pseudo-philosophy?


I actually wonder if we humans have been "misled" to think that there is something blocking our understanding and that needs to come crumbling down or removed in order for us to "realize" Reality.

But what if that is the biggest delusion of all?

Why doesn't anyone talk about Now..being in the present..we do exist and that itself is the only Reality we need to know.

After all aren't we Reality itself?
 
There is Saguna Brahman (which is what I called Brahman), the evolutionary part of the Supreme consciousness, with attributes like Vishnu (Inertia), mAya/shakti (rest-mass), Brahma (Gravity), Shiva (Dark Energy) and Purusha (Dark Matter). In the process of 'Self-realization' of the Supreme consciousness, all these evolutionary attributes come out.

The Intelligence of the Supreme consciousness is converted into knowledge that is understandable (Inertia, Mass, Gravity, Energy) in the process of evolution. These further evolve into Sura (Quarks,leptons, Matter), Indra (Baryons), Varuna (Mesons), Soma (Strong force), Asuras (Anti-matter), Atoms (Vasu), Rudra (force-fields) etc..

As the matter (deva)-anti-matter (asura) war in the early universe was won over by matter (matter based atomic nucleus became immortal with baryogenesis), dawn (Usa) of universe occured, with elements, compounds and biological life evolving with higher and higher knowledge. This is the evolving part of that Supreme consciousness.

Dear Shri TBT,

I like your novel interpretation of concepts of science. All may not agree with it but it can definitely inspire at least some people to think differently.
 
The very fact that you have written we may know or may not know or only partly know through our knowledge would only reinforce the fact that what ever we decipher or even choose to call our understanding is merely a speculation.

The we may not know or partly know is only about what is behind this evolution, the nirguna brahman part (so to say). The saguna Brahman part (if I call so), which is the knowledge of Vishnu, Maya/Shakti, Brahma, Shiva, Indra, Varuna is all with us in the Vedas and they just fit the standard model of understanding beautifully, in my understanding.

-TBT
 
I actually wonder if we humans have been "misled" to think that there is something blocking our understanding and that needs to come crumbling down or removed in order for us to "realize" Reality.

But what if that is the biggest delusion of all?

Why doesn't anyone talk about Now..being in the present..we do exist and that itself is the only Reality we need to know.

After all aren't we Reality itself?

I think we have been simply misled on the understanding of Vedic scriptures. That is just my understanding.

Vedas are not searching for any realization. They describe knowledge or information as one could perceive in current Standard Model of Universe. They link this evolution of knowledge with an Atma.

Several philosophies have been written on them, which took them into a 'spiritual' path, more so, because people did not understand them.

The 'Realization' that we are talking about is search for Knowledge as what scientists do. Science is searching for various proofs to standard model components in different labs. We are putting forward different mathematical models of our universal evolution and its characteristics and are testing them out, by seeing practical evidences.

This is the realization. Nothing else. This is simply the knowledge available in Vedas. This quest for knowledge, this quest for realization, stems from the desire of Supreme consciousness to 'realize' itself is my speculation (if I call it so). But Vedas describe the components as in Standard Model is not my speculation, my current understanding. (may be speculation for others..) :)

-TBT
 
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The we may not know or partly know is only about what is behind this evolution, the nirguna brahman part (so to say). The saguna Brahman part (if I call so), which is the knowledge of Vishnu, Maya/Shakti, Brahma, Shiva, Indra, Varuna is all with us in the Vedas and they just fit the standard model of understanding beautifully, in my understanding.

-TBT

Agreed...but all these knowledge has a tendency to fit into various shapes of the human mind and we have countless schools of thoughts with none really seeing eye to eye with each other.

Its not really Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadanti anymore..its just seems Ekam is never really known...no wonder there is Bahuda Vadanti.
 
I think we have been simply misled on the understanding of Vedic scriptures. That is just my understanding.

Vedas are not searching for any realization. They describe knowledge or information as one could perceive in current Standard Model of Universe. They link this evolution of knowledge with an Atma.

Several philosophies have been written on them, which took them into a 'spiritual' path, more so, because people did not understand them.

The 'Realization' that we are talking about is search for Knowledge as what scientists do. Science is searching for various proofs to standard model components in different labs. We are putting forward different mathematical models of our universal evolution and its characteristics and are testing them out, by seeing practical evidences.

This is the realization. Nothing else. This is simply the knowledge available in Vedas. This quest for knowledge, this quest for realization, stems from the desire of Supreme consciousness to 'realize' itself is my speculation (if I call it so). But Vedas describe the components as in Standard Model is not my speculation, my current understanding. (may be speculation for others..) :)

-TBT

But the mind is still the main player in the quest for knowledge.

How accurate can a mind be? After all minds have known to make mistakes too especially if tainted with a personal desire.

What the mind sees is not always true..best example is a mirage..it seems like water but it is not..only when we go near we see that its not water but merely an illusion caused by intense heat.

So if its so easy that Realization is merely a search for knowledge like how scientist do in a lab..that means there is bound to be flawed understandings too which only time will prove or disprove.

Going by this..no human actually even knows everything..everyone is limited to only his/her intelligence scope and education.

For example if my car breaks down I would not know how to repair it...I would need to call a mechanic...therefore my knowledge is limited...that means "Realization" is not for me.

Going by this logic that means no one in this whole universe will ever know anything cos no one can ever know everything.

This is the limitation if we feel everything is only Knowledge..I am reminded of the conversation between Sage Uddalaka and his son Svetaketu;

He asked his son:


  • Yenasrutam srutam bhavati, amatam matam, avijnatam vijnatam iti: katham nu, bhagavah, sa adeso bhavatiti.


"Do you know That, by knowing which, everything is known? Do you know That, by which the unheard becomes heard, the unthought becomes thought,the unknown becomes known? How Sir is that instruction imparted?
 
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But the mind is still the main player in the quest for knowledge.

How accurate can a mind be? After all minds have known to make mistakes too especially if tainted with a personal desire.

What the mind sees is not always true..best example is a mirage..it seems like water but it is not..only when we go near we see that its not water but merely an illusion caused by intense heat.

So if its so easy that Realization is merely a search for knowledge like how scientist do in a lab..that means there is bound to be flawed understandings too which only time will prove or disprove.

Going by this..no human actually even knows everything..everyone is limited to only his/her intelligence scope and education.

For example if my car breaks down I would not know how to repair it...I would need to call a mechanic...therefore my knowledge is limited...that means "Realization" is not for me.

Going by this logic that means no one in this whole universe will ever know anything cos no one can ever know everything.

This is the limitation if we feel everything is only Knowledge..I am reminded of the conversation between Sage Uddalaka and his son Svetaketu;

He asked his son:


  • Yenasrutam srutam bhavati, amatam matam, avijnatam vijnatam iti: katham nu, bhagavah, sa adeso bhavatiti.


"Do you know That, by knowing which, everything is known? Do you know That, by which the unheard becomes heard, the unthought becomes thought,the unknown becomes known? How Sir is that instruction imparted?

Well, 'Everything' is a big word. None need to know everything. But in my view there is no other/better 'Realization' than the realization of knowledge.

The only 'realization' that has progressed over millions of years is the realization of more and more knowledge across Universe, across earth and across human evolution. All other realization philosophies have fallen by the way over a period.

From my blog on Soul, Inertia and Tat Tvam Asi, http://creative.sulekha.com/soul-inertia-and-tat-tvam-asi_626207_blog

"If one reads the Chandogya Upanishad which describes the conversation between Uddalaka and Svetaketu, then we can make the right meaning of Tat Tvam Asi, in the right context.

Svetaketu is proud because he completed learning all Vedas by age 12. So Uddalaka asks him 'did you ask for that instruction by which that which is not heard, becomes heard, [that which is] not thought, becomes thought, and [that which is] not known becomes known..?".


Svetaketu is perplexed. He begs his father to teach him about that. In that series of teachings Uddalaka explains how beings were born from non-being. He explains how all beings have the same essence, like salt that gets dissolved in water.

In that context he says "That which is the finest essence the whole Universe has That as its soul. That is Reality. That is Self. That is You/Not you (Tat Tvam asi) svetaketu".

This is pretty much what modern science says today. All beings have the same essence. Same atomic elements.


Let's take this case of salt dissolved in water. If we consider the salt-water as a mix of some protons, neutrons and electrons, water and salt are indistinguishable. This is advaita.


When we see them as two chemical compounds Nacl and H20, we will see them as two different entities. This is dvaita.


When we see them as a mixture of water and salt, where salt ultimately dissolves in water, it is visishtadvaita.


So they are all same, but talking about different dimensions."

-TBT
 

Let's take this case of salt dissolved in water. If we consider the salt-water as a mix of some protons, neutrons and electrons, water and salt are indistinguishable. This is advaita.


When we see them as two chemical compounds Nacl and H20, we will see them as two different entities. This is dvaita.


When we see them as a mixture of water and salt, where salt ultimately dissolves in water, it is visishtadvaita.


So they are all same, but talking about different dimensions."

-TBT


No its not the same...cos in the 1st case of the Advaitin and the 3rd case of the Vishisthadvaitin both acknowledge the salt dissolved in water...therefore it tastes salty!

In case of Dvaitin...the salt has not dissolved in water and stands as two distinct components...therefore does not taste salty.

No wonder Dvaitins claim everything is Maduram... even the act of drinking is Maduram..Peetam Maduramपीतं मधुरं ....they are the only ones who haven't tasted the salty water!LOL
 
No its not the same...cos in the 1st case of the Advaitin and the 3rd case of the Vishisthadvaitin both acknowledge the salt dissolved in water...therefore it tastes salty!

In case of Dvaitin...the salt has not dissolved in water and stands as two distinct components...therefore does not taste salty.

No wonder Dvaitins claim everything is Maduram... even the act of drinking is Maduram..Peetam Maduramपीतं मधुरं ....they are the only ones who haven't tasted the salty water!LOL

Enjoy.
 
1. As I wrote, the Supreme Soul or Param Atma is not changing or evolving. I never meant 'evolution' of Param-Atma. I wrote Param Atma wanted to realize itself.

That is the starting question of the blog. If Paramatma wanted to realize itself, was it stupid to begin with..? No. Like our instincts become our knowledge over a period as we 'realize' more and more, this Universe, in my view, is a play of that Paramatma which is evolving the 'knowledge' of the Universe, to 'realize' its intelligence.

Our Intelligence is sum of Instincts and Knowledge. Instincts are not 'realizable/understandable'. Knowledge is realizable/understandable. The process of 'realization of Intelligence' here, is converting more and more of instincts to understandable/analyzable knowledge.

So when I write Paramatma wants to realize itself, it is embarking on a journey to convert its instincts into knowledge through the process of evolution.

How does it do..?

Aitareya Upanishad says from that Atma came the Amba, Marici, Mara and Apa. Atma also produced Purusha to protect the Amba. It also says Purusha is not impacted by anything. Purusha Suktam says Purusha is the bed on which the Yajna of Universe happens and it is 3/4ths of the Universe.

Science says Dark Matter came up along with matter evolution at the origins of universe is not impacted by any matter (and hence dark). The Dark matter is 3/4th of Universe and matter evolution happens on that 'bed' of dark matter. Purusha is the dark-matter and Amba is the Matter or prakrti.

The Parmatma which we can view as a bundle of consciousness or some kind of energy, in order to 'realize' its intelligence, produces the matter and dark-matter and the evolution of matter into higher forms of knowledge, where more instincts become realizable/understandable/rational knowledge.

The paramatma in itself does not change. The overall intelligence does not change. But knowledge goes up, while instincts go down in higher life forms as we evolve.

As I wrote, the Universe can be visualized as thoughts of Paramatma the Super brain. If I believe Nasadiya suktam, we may never be able to find out what is that Atma or we may only know partially. But life keeps evolving into higher realizable knowledge forms all across the Universe, by the wish of that Atma.

2. On Nasadiya suktam, I had done a translation long back. It is in my vedic studies blog. Though it differs from the Griffith's translation, many parts are similar and common.

I will be posting that translation also here.

-TBT

There is no logical difference between Paramatma evolving and 'wanting' to 'realize itself' whatever that means.

Realization means there was a state of Paramatma unrealized and then there is realized state. This implies ordering in Time and hence bound by Time. This means original objections continue to remain.

Also, once there is knowledge (by so called realization as stated above) there cannot be be un-realization for anything cyclical to happen. If it is cyclical then bondage by Time has to be there.

If there is no unrealization possible then what is the point in an absolute entity starting with unrealized state and going into realized state once?

The logical holes continue to remain.

Our scriptures do not imply any of the above otherwise there will be contradictions preventing any kind of understanding from being possible.

The citation of scriptures can only be done to amplify a point but first the point has to be understandable without contradiction.

Also dark matter, proton, electron etc are not real items to assert their existence. They are at best words used to convey certain observational items. Words like particle (e.g., electron) convey something that appears to behave like particle in an experiment where particle is not seen but only result of an experiment which verily destroys the state of what is observed.

The underlying theory of this so called 'particle' is based on usage of a term 'wave' which conjures up images of wave in our mind due to choice of words which have a meaning in our experience. But the wave that is also expression of this electron is actually a 'wave like equation' describing probability in an infinite dimensional Hilbert space which cannot be imagined.

So the words like dark matter and particles etc cannot be taken literally and mapped to other terms found in our scriptures which also do not have parallel in our experience and feel as if there is an understanding.

The intent of my statement is not to put down anyone or anything but suggest a seeker of truth to take up the study of our scriptures with a properly qualified teacher. Our knowledge scriptures not only unfold the truth but also include a method of teaching that assures 100% of transmission to a student with a desire to learn.
 
There is no logical difference between Paramatma evolving and 'wanting' to 'realize itself' whatever that means.

Realization means there was a state of Paramatma unrealized and then there is realized state. This implies ordering in Time and hence bound by Time. This means original objections continue to remain.

Also, once there is knowledge (by so called realization as stated above) there cannot be be un-realization for anything cyclical to happen. If it is cyclical then bondage by Time has to be there.

If there is no unrealization possible then what is the point in an absolute entity starting with unrealized state and going into realized state once?

The logical holes continue to remain.

Our scriptures do not imply any of the above otherwise there will be contradictions preventing any kind of understanding from being possible.

The citation of scriptures can only be done to amplify a point but first the point has to be understandable without contradiction.

Also dark matter, proton, electron etc are not real items to assert their existence. They are at best words used to convey certain observational items. Words like particle (e.g., electron) convey something that appears to behave like particle in an experiment where particle is not seen but only result of an experiment which verily destroys the state of what is observed.

The underlying theory of this so called 'particle' is based on usage of a term 'wave' which conjures up images of wave in our mind due to choice of words which have a meaning in our experience. But the wave that is also expression of this electron is actually a 'wave like equation' describing probability in an infinite dimensional Hilbert space which cannot be imagined.

So the words like dark matter and particles etc cannot be taken literally and mapped to other terms found in our scriptures which also do not have parallel in our experience and feel as if there is an understanding.

The intent of my statement is not to put down anyone or anything but suggest a seeker of truth to take up the study of our scriptures with a properly qualified teacher. Our knowledge scriptures not only unfold the truth but also include a method of teaching that assures 100% of transmission to a student with a desire to learn.

I wholeheartedly welcome your thoughts. What else is a better format to kindle knowledge exploration than dissent..?

Shatki (Momentum) or mAyA (Mass)..?

While positive responses give me energy (Shiva) to continue, dissent gives me momentum (Shakti) to respond with more details.


Shakti is Momentum in reality, while she is perceived as mAyA (rest-mass) by us. Science says what exists in reality is momentum (and energy). Rest-Mass is the perception that covers the Universe.

Our scripture also say the same. They say it is Shakti who appears as mAyA.

Now to see mAyA as an illusion of ‘life’ may be one view. To perceive mAyA as a perception of mass in place of Shakti (momentum), which is the reality, is science view.

Our scriptures say mAyA is feminine form of Vishnu and Brahma raises from the ‘Nabhi’ of Vishnu. We can see it as Mass being a feminine form of Inertia (that undergoes changes) and Gravity arising from its Center.

We can also see them as ‘God-forms’ and paint pictures of them as Brahma arising from the navel of Vishnu.

Vaisvanara (Particle) and Taijasa (wave)

Similar is the dual nature of photons, electrons, neutrons and other particles. They are a probability density function with a similar to wave characteristics and are also quantized to exhibit matter like characteristics.

As Brhadaranyaka Upanishad says "द्वे भाव ब्रह्मणो " - Brahman (Evolution) manifests duality. Now this duality can be seen as ‘light’ and ‘dark’, ‘life’ and ‘death’, ‘limited’ and ‘unlimited’, ‘defined’ and undefined’.

We know today there are millions of shades of grey. But we may not question this understanding of light and dark and accept them as they are.

But we can also see them as ‘Wave’ and ‘Particle’. In fact Mandukya Upanishad talks precisely of Vaisva-Nara of Sthula (Gross) and Taijasa (light/Wave) of Suksuma, which means Particle and Wave.

Single particle Hilbert spaces

Hilbert spaces are infinite dimensional vector spaces for mathematical modeling. If we apply Hilbert space to particles and talk of (single) particle Hilbert spaces, then depending energy, momentum, spin of the particle, it is the space of all possible states of a particle.

Yes, these particles cannot be ‘imagined’ as a ‘sthula/gross’ ‘matter’ present in an euclidean space. But that’s what exactly the Vedas and Puranas say.

Indra, Aira/sachi, Aswins, Maruts, Rudras are not mortal forms. They exist in a different world altogether, which has different rules and have different forms. They exhibit duality of Nara and Taijasa.

So there is nothing wrong in mapping Indra to baryons or Aira/sachi to electrons. Nowhere they are said to be of sthula form.

In fact if we understand the Puranas they say there are three worlds Nara-Loka (biological world), Deva-loka (world of elements/chemicals) and pAthala loka (Quantum world buried deep in atoms).

These three worlds have different beings residing in them. They have different characteristics and nature.

Yes we can understand these three lokas as world of devas, humans and nagas/danavas etc, where we visualize devas and nagas and danavas as similar to human beings. But that is our one type of understanding. We can also see them as biological, chemical and physical/quantum worlds.

Purusha as Dark-Matter

Dark-Matter is a matter that ‘lurks’ in the Universe which we infer from our mathematical calculations, but are not able to detect it as it does not interact with matter. It is supposed to be 3/4th of the Universe roughly.

Purusha suktam says Purusha is 3/4th of the Universe and Aitareya Upanishad says Purusha is not influenced by Prakrti anytime at all. Purusha is this un-influenced bed on which the Yajna or sacrifice or cosmic evolution takes place.

Now is Purusha Dark-matter..? Well that’s my hypothesis.

Not just that. We can talk of euclidean spacetime (four dimensional space), conflict between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, spacetime warping etc from puranic viewpoints. But that’s a large answer later.

Saguna-Nirguna Brahman

Param-Atma or the Nir-guna brahman may be some kind of un-differentiated bundle of energy or consciousness or intelligence before the Universal evolution.

Due to the desire to ‘realize’ itself, which means produce knowledge to understand itself, the Atma leads to what one can call as ‘Saguna’ brahman whose attributes are Vishnu (Inertia), mAya(rest-mass), Brahma (Gravity), Shakti (momentum), Shiva (Energy) etc.

Once the saguna Brahman comes out, the Nirguna brahman does not control it. The saguna brahman is an isolated system which Nir-guna brahman does not interfere with it.

What I wrote here was, this Universal evolution or Yajna or Sacrifice is a result of that Param-Atma to convert some of that consciousness into ‘Knowledge’. The ‘realization’ is this conversion to knowledge.

Entropy - Savitr

The knowledge in the Universe can also viewed as ‘information’ or ‘dis-order’ and hence entropy of it. The entropy of an isolated system keeps on increasing. That is science. I call this entropy as ‘Savitr’. (why in some other blog)..

This increase in knowledge leads to atoms, elements, compounds, biological life and beings with capability to analyze knowledge.

They get endowed with ‘desire’ to realize/understand themselves, the Universe and understand what is behind all this play. This ‘desire’ is derived from the original desire of the ParamAtma.

At some point of time, may be, the ‘desire’ will be reached or may not be reached. Beings intelligent may go very near to understanding the complete saguna brahman and try to reach the ParamAtma. By that time, the Universal expansion may take it to destruction and the whole Universe may collapse.

Kalpa - A day of Brahma

If we believe the Puranas, Brahma (Gravity)’s one day is one kalpa. After 100 years of Brahma Universe gets destroyed when brahma (gravity) goes to sleep. Then Brahma (Gravity) wakes up again and the entire process starts again.

Within the 100 years of Brahma, whether the knowledge of paramAtma is reached or not, I don’t know. May be it just the effort. But we are seeded with the nature to drive towards increasing our analyzable knowledge. We will be doing it, irrespective of anything else.

There is no un-realization. As the Knowledge of beings approach a better understanding of the ParamAtma, Universe may reach the 100 Brahma year and may be getting destroyed as gravity goes off (Brahma goes to sleep). We are in to svetavaraha kalpa, the 50th year of Brahma.

This is not science. This is just a supposition.

Time- Fourth dimension of space

Is paramAtma bound by space-time..? We do not know of it. Like the quantum world whose physics is different from classical world, it may have totally different characteristics, which we may never know.

Is Time ‘created’ by paramAtma..? Time is not a physical entity at all. It is the fourth dimension of space. It is a part of four dimensional SpaceTime continuum. What parmAtma created is the ‘spacetime curvature’ and its evolution, which gives us the perception of time.

The saguna-brahman part of it is bound by space-time. Universe is in spacetime continuum.

I am trying to paint a picture here of various aspects, not to create believers in what I say, but to be clear in whatever I state.

Easwaro Rakshatu.

-TBT
 
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I wholeheartedly welcome your thoughts. What else is a better format to kindle knowledge exploration than dissent..?

Shatki (Momentum) or mAyA (Mass)..?

While positive responses give me energy (Shiva) to continue, dissent gives me momentum (Shakti) to respond with more details.


Shakti is Momentum in reality, while she is perceived as mAyA (rest-mass) by us. Science says what exists in reality is momentum (and energy). Rest-Mass is the perception that covers the Universe.

Our scripture also say the same. They say it is Shakti who appears as mAyA.

Now to see mAyA as an illusion of ‘life’ may be one view. To perceive mAyA as a perception of mass in place of Shakti (momentum), which is the reality, is science view.

Our scriptures say mAyA is feminine form of Vishnu and Brahma raises from the ‘Nabhi’ of Vishnu. We can see it as Mass being a feminine form of Inertia (that undergoes changes) and Gravity arising from its Center.

We can also see them as ‘God-forms’ and paint pictures of them as Brahma arising from the navel of Vishnu.

Vaisvanara (Particle) and Taijasa (wave)

Similar is the dual nature of photons, electrons, neutrons and other particles. They are a probability density function with a similar to wave characteristics and are also quantized to exhibit matter like characteristics.

As Brhadaranyaka Upanishad says "द्वे भाव ब्रह्मणो " - Brahman (Evolution) manifests duality. Now this duality can be seen as ‘light’ and ‘dark’, ‘life’ and ‘death’, ‘limited’ and ‘unlimited’, ‘defined’ and undefined’.

We know today there are millions of shades of grey. But we may not question this understanding of light and dark and accept them as they are.

But we can also see them as ‘Wave’ and ‘Particle’. In fact Mandukya Upanishad talks precisely of Vaisva-Nara of Sthula (Gross) and Taijasa (light/Wave) of Suksuma, which means Particle and Wave.

Single particle Hilbert spaces

Hilbert spaces are infinite dimensional vector spaces for mathematical modeling. If we apply Hilbert space to particles and talk of (single) particle Hilbert spaces, then depending energy, momentum, spin of the particle, it is the space of all possible states of a particle.

Yes, these particles cannot be ‘imagined’ as a ‘sthula/gross’ ‘matter’ present in an euclidean space. But that’s what exactly the Vedas and Puranas say.

Indra, Aira/sachi, Aswins, Maruts, Rudras are not mortal forms. They exist in a different world altogether, which has different rules and have different forms. They exhibit duality of Nara and Taijasa.

So there is nothing wrong in mapping Indra to baryons or Aira/sachi to electrons. Nowhere they are said to be of sthula form.

In fact if we understand the Puranas they say there are three worlds Nara-Loka (biological world), Deva-loka (world of elements/chemicals) and pAthala loka (Quantum world buried deep in atoms).

These three worlds have different beings residing in them. They have different characteristics and nature.

Yes we can understand these three lokas as world of devas, humans and nagas/danavas etc, where we visualize devas and nagas and danavas as similar to human beings. But that is our one type of understanding. We can also see them as biological, chemical and physical/quantum worlds.

Purusha as Dark-Matter

Dark-Matter is a matter that ‘lurks’ in the Universe which we infer from our mathematical calculations, but are not able to detect it as it does not interact with matter. It is supposed to be 3/4th of the Universe roughly.

Purusha suktam says Purusha is 3/4th of the Universe and Aitareya Upanishad says Purusha is not influenced by Prakrti anytime at all. Purusha is this un-influenced bed on which the Yajna or sacrifice or cosmic evolution takes place.

Now is Purusha Dark-matter..? Well that’s my hypothesis.

Not just that. We can talk of euclidean spacetime (four dimensional space), conflict between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, spacetime warping etc from puranic viewpoints. But that’s a large answer later.

Saguna-Nirguna Brahman

Param-Atma or the Nir-guna brahman may be some kind of un-differentiated bundle of energy or consciousness or intelligence before the Universal evolution.

Due to the desire to ‘realize’ itself, which means produce knowledge to understand itself, the Atma leads to what one can call as ‘Saguna’ brahman whose attributes are Vishnu (Inertia), mAya(rest-mass), Brahma (Gravity), Shakti (momentum), Shiva (Energy) etc.

Once the saguna Brahman comes out, the Nirguna brahman does not control it. The saguna brahman is an isolated system which Nir-guna brahman does not interfere with it.

What I wrote here was, this Universal evolution or Yajna or Sacrifice is a result of that Param-Atma to convert some of that consciousness into ‘Knowledge’. The ‘realization’ is this conversion to knowledge.

Entropy - Savitr

The knowledge in the Universe can also viewed as ‘information’ or ‘dis-order’ and hence entropy of it. The entropy of an isolated system keeps on increasing. That is science. I call this entropy as ‘Savitr’. (why in some other blog)..

This increase in knowledge leads to atoms, elements, compounds, biological life and beings with capability to analyze knowledge.

They get endowed with ‘desire’ to realize/understand themselves, the Universe and understand what is behind all this play. This ‘desire’ is derived from the original desire of the ParamAtma.

At some point of time, may be, the ‘desire’ will be reached or may not be reached. Beings intelligent may go very near to understanding the complete saguna brahman and try to reach the ParamAtma. By that time, the Universal expansion may take it to destruction and the whole Universe may collapse.

Kalpa - A day of Brahma

If we believe the Puranas, Brahma (Gravity)’s one day is one kalpa. After 100 years of Brahma Universe gets destroyed when brahma (gravity) goes to sleep. Then Brahma (Gravity) wakes up again and the entire process starts again.

Within the 100 years of Brahma, whether the knowledge of paramAtma is reached or not, I don’t know. May be it just the effort. But we are seeded with the nature to drive towards increasing our analyzable knowledge. We will be doing it, irrespective of anything else.

There is no un-realization. As the Knowledge of beings approach a better understanding of the ParamAtma, Universe may reach the 100 Brahma year and may be getting destroyed as gravity goes off (Brahma goes to sleep). We are in to svetavaraha kalpa, the 50th year of Brahma.

This is not science. This is just a supposition.

Time- Fourth dimension of space

Is paramAtma bound by space-time..? We do not know of it. Like the quantum world whose physics is different from classical world, it may have totally different characteristics, which we may never know.

Is Time ‘created’ by paramAtma..? Time is not a physical entity at all. It is the fourth dimension of space. It is a part of four dimensional SpaceTime continuum. What parmAtma created is the ‘spacetime curvature’ and its evolution, which gives us the perception of time.

The saguna-brahman part of it is bound by space-time. Universe is in spacetime continuum.

I am trying to paint a picture here of various aspects, not to create believers in what I say, but to be clear in whatever I state.

Easwaro Rakshatu.

-TBT

Dear Sri TBT,

Thanks for taking time to respond. Your response has not addressed the contradictions pointed out earlier.

I do appreciate your positive attitude of welcoming dissent.

However, I am not able to respond even with dissent because your response appears to me to be a jumble of words.

It neither conveys to me understanding of basic Science nor anything that is taught in our scriptures. Perhaps it does to others.


I do appreciate the engagement thus far

Regards

PS: I am beginning to appreciate the words of Nobel Laureate Venkatraman Ramakrishnan.

Unlike this Nobel Laureate, I understand that the ancient sages and other scientists of from India through many thousands of years have contributed immensely to understanding the reality of the universe, space-time and advancement of technologies. However psedo-science of today with play of meaningless words have distorted true teaching that reflects India's seminal contributions to Science and technology. In fact it has made a mockery of both the philosophical foundations as well as modern science.

My comments above are not directed at Sri TBT though his post reminded me to share this view.

I am beginning to appreciate the comments of Sri Venkataraman.

"In a damning charge, scientist Venkatraman Ramakrishnan has slammed the ongoing Indian Science Congress, being held in Mysuru, and called it a 'circus'. The Indian-born Nobel laureate had earlier condemned the Science Congress and said that politics and religious ideologies shouldn't be mixed with science.Speaking to reporters, Ramakrishnan said, "I attended one day (of an earlier Congress) and very little science was discussed. It was a circus. I find that it's an organisation where very little science is discussed. I will never attend a science congress again in my life."
 
"In a damning charge, scientist Venkatraman Ramakrishnan has slammed the ongoing Indian Science Congress, being held in Mysuru, and called it a 'circus'. The Indian-born Nobel laureate had earlier condemned the Science Congress and said that politics and religious ideologies shouldn't be mixed with science.Speaking to reporters, Ramakrishnan said, "I attended one day (of an earlier Congress) and very little science was discussed. It was a circus. I find that it's an organisation where very little science is discussed. I will never attend a science congress again in my life."

In my view science indeed will be reduced to a joke, if it continues to ignore spiritual knowledge
 
"In a damning charge, scientist Venkatraman Ramakrishnan has slammed the ongoing Indian Science Congress, being held in Mysuru, and called it a 'circus'. The Indian-born Nobel laureate had earlier condemned the Science Congress and said that politics and religious ideologies shouldn't be mixed with science.Speaking to reporters, Ramakrishnan said, "I attended one day (of an earlier Congress) and very little science was discussed. It was a circus. I find that it's an organisation where very little science is discussed. I will never attend a science congress again in my life."


I don't really find anything wrong is combining religious ideologies with science as long one does not let superstition get into the way and not have pre conceived notions..cos that would lead to a biased result.

Everything in existence is connected in a unique way which we humans have not really fully understood.

Knowledge exist in various forms...its up to us to identify why and how this came about.

A human can not run away from philosophy of any kind in life....science is the rose and philosophy is the fragrance..you need both to admire the flower.
 
Shatki (Momentum) or mAyA (Mass)..?

While positive responses give me energy (Shiva) to continue, dissent gives me momentum (Shakti) to respond with more details.


Shakti is Momentum in reality, while she is perceived as mAyA (rest-mass) by us. Science says what exists in reality is momentum (and energy). Rest-Mass is the perception that covers the Universe.

Our scripture also say the same. They say it is Shakti who appears as mAyA.

Now to see mAyA as an illusion of ‘life’ may be one view. To perceive mAyA as a perception of mass in place of Shakti (momentum), which is the reality, is science view.

Our scriptures say mAyA is feminine form of Vishnu and Brahma raises from the ‘Nabhi’ of Vishnu. We can see it as Mass being a feminine form of Inertia (that undergoes changes) and Gravity arising from its Center.

We can also see them as ‘God-forms’ and paint pictures of them as Brahma arising from the navel of Vishnu.


-TBT


I would like some clarification here.

Firstly from the definition of Rest Mass:

'Rest Mass' of an object is the inertial mass that an object has when it is at rest.

I would like to know how does this connect with Maya?

As far as I know religion perceives Maya in several ways as being the Dynamic Energy of God which subjects entire creation to the state of duality.

Technically can Maya actually ever be in a state of "rest"? that is can Maya be stationary when its the Dynamic Power of God?

Kindly clarify this..cos it does not really seem to co-relate cos if Maya is rest mass..that means its not Dynamic and it wont confer the effect of duality to entire creation as per religious views.
 
I don't really find anything wrong is combining religious ideologies with science as long one does not let superstition get into the way and not have pre conceived notions..cos that would lead to a biased result.

Everything in existence is connected in a unique way which we humans have not really fully understood.

Knowledge exist in various forms...its up to us to identify why and how this came about.

A human can not run away from philosophy of any kind in life....science is the rose and philosophy is the fragrance..you need both to admire the flower.

Very well said Renuka
 
I would like some clarification here.

Firstly from the definition of Rest Mass:



I would like to know how does this connect with Maya?

As far as I know religion perceives Maya in several ways as being the Dynamic Energy of God which subjects entire creation to the state of duality.

Technically can Maya actually ever be in a state of "rest"? that is can Maya be stationary when its the Dynamic Power of God?

Kindly clarify this..cos it does not really seem to co-relate cos if Maya is rest mass..that means its not Dynamic and it wont confer the effect of duality to entire creation as per religious views.


Visualize your body as a colony of atoms made of nucleus and electrons. In every nucleus protons and neutrons are zipping in near light speeds. Electrons are also moving around the nucleus. Essentially every part of atom is moving and has a great momentum (mass times velocity). (This is a simplification. Most 'mass' of nucleus comes from strong interaction. But that does not affect this thought process).

You are a colony of atoms possessing great momentum or Shakti.

But what you are perceived outside as a 'mass' of body of X kgs. :). The mass perceived outside is the rest-mass or mAyA. The rest-mass or mAyA is in a way is an (illusory..) perception of momentum possessed by nucleus and electrons inside.

This is what I meant as Shakti (momentum) being perceived as 'mAyA' (Rest-mass).

-TBT
 
Dear Shri TBT,

Generally, to those who are steeped in science, any other attempt of others to present knowledge is not a serious one. That is the negative influence science has had on the development of knowledge. Intuitively your attempt seems to be a serious one and a praiseworthy effort.

I wish more people explore spirituality and see the potential it has to be not only relevant but also central to better understanding of the universe and our own selves.
 
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But what you are perceived outside as a 'mass' of body of X kgs. :). The mass perceived outside is the rest-mass or mAyA. The rest-mass or mAyA is in a way is an (illusory..) perception of momentum possessed by nucleus and electrons inside.

This is what I meant as Shakti (momentum) being perceived as 'mAyA' (Rest-mass).

-TBT


So that means the so called rest mass state is a relative state ..any relative state would have a standard reference as a comparison.

Its easy to have standard reference comparison for objects that are perceivable...now if you are applying the same logic to Maya..what is the standard reference comparison in the case of Maya?
 
So that means the so called rest mass state is a relative state ..any relative state would have a standard reference as a comparison.

Its easy to have standard reference comparison for objects that are perceivable...now if you are applying the same logic to Maya..what is the standard reference comparison in the case of Maya?

Well, I said Rest-Mass (mAyA) is what we see in the classical domain. It is our perception. What makes that in the Quantum domain is momentum (shakti) of nucleus and the electrons. For the purpose of this discussion, I neither said it is relative, nor I said it is a state. (though these could be applied in different contexts).

mAyA is what we perceived outside. Shakti is what is inside.

-TBT
 
For the purpose of this discussion, I neither said it is relative, nor I said it is a state. (though these could be applied in different contexts).

mAyA is what we perceived outside. Shakti is what is inside.

-TBT

Well....you mentioned about Rest-Mass.

Rest-Mass..we are talking about a state when an object is at rest relative to the observer isnt it?

So you need an object and you need an observer in the Rest Mass definition.

Now let me put it this way..if you feel Maya is Rest-Mass then What or Who is the Observer?

We can NOT say we humans are the Observers becos according to philosophy no one really knows anything about Maya...that translates as not being able to observe Maya cos you can not observe what you do not know about.

So can you name me an Observer here who observes Maya for Maya to qualify as Rest- Mass?

I feel your personalized theory of evolution of the soul has a real missing link!
 
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Well....you mentioned about Rest-Mass.

Rest-Mass..we are talking about a state when an object is at rest relative to the observer isnt it?

So you need an object and you need an observer in the Rest Mass definition.

Now let me put it this way..if you feel Maya is Rest-Mass then What or Who is the Observer?

We can NOT say we humans are the Observers becos according to philosophy no one really knows anything about Maya...that translates as not being able to observe Maya cos you can not observe what you do not know about.

So can you name me an Observer here who observes Maya for Maya to qualify as Rest- Mass?

I feel your personalized theory of evolution of the soul has a real missing link!


Rest-mass is the inertial mass of an object when it is at rest. Non-Inertial frame of reference and relativity come in only when we deal with mass of sub-atomic range of particles.

I started with 'You' as an object. In that domain you can be an observer of yourself. Since any observer is going to be in the same inertial frame of reference and any relative movement is not going to be way off from the speed of light, we need not worry about the observer and observed.

I said 'You' as an object appear to be an object at rest with an rest-mass (mass measured through inertia or gravity), when looked from outside. But that is mAyA. You are a colony of atoms where in every atom the nucleus and electrons possess huge momentum (shakti). We perceive that Shakti/momentum of colony of atoms as the inertia/rest-mass (mAyA) of the whole object.

-TBT
 
From Opening Post



The above cannot be sustained in any logical framework.

1. If so called Supreme Self is Paramatma, it is the cause for appearance of time.
Evolution implies change with respect to time and space. Paramatma is not bound by space-time, being that it is the cause for appearance of space-time by definition. Therefore evolution of Paramatma is not logically supportable.

2. Any change of an entity with respect to time is perceivable only if there is a reference point to a changeless entity. Since there is but one Paramatma there cannot be an evolution of it, since changeless state is unavailable and hence change is not perceivable.

There are many more logical holes with the starting point. Therefore all subsequent 'conclusions' cannot be supported by any logic.

Our scriptures including Nasadiya Suktam does not imply anything stated in the OP.

I can offer these thoughts on your original post.

Question: Paramatma is the cause of appearance of time. Evolution implies change with respect to time/space. Since Paramatma caused space/time, it cannot be bound by space/time. Hence evolution of paramatma is not logical.

Answer: To put in a Vedantic terminology, Paramatma is Nir-Guna Brahman. The saguna brahman (which I called Brahman in my original post) evolves with respect to time/space. The evolutionary attributes of Saguna brahman are Vishu, Shakti/Maya, Shiva, Brahma, Skanda etc... Saguna Brahman evolves with time/space. The nature of paramatma (which I called Atma in original post) may never be known or partially known (if we believe Nasadiya Suktam). Simply put, Nirguna Brahman is the unchanging, unevolving reference point, outside of the saguna brahman.

Question: We perceive change with respect to time based on some reference point of time. If paramatma is evolving, then there is no reference point as that point is moving. Hence no change will be perceivable.

Answer: Paramatma or Nirguna Brahman (what i called Atma) probably created the spacetime in which Saguna Brahman evolves. It is behind all (according Nasadiya suktam) and none could probably ever know fully what it is. In the standard model the evolution of spacetime is measured from Big-Bang. In my understanding of Nasadiya Suktam, it depicts something similar to Big-Bang from which the Universal evolution (saguna Brahman) started. The Nir-guna brahman or Atma in my view is the unchanging, unevolving reference point you are looking for.

Since I wanted to re-write my understanding of Nasadiya Suktam, I did not share it here. Here is my understanding of Nasadiya Suktam (which I will be re-writing) written long back. http://vedabhasya.blogspot.in/2011/12/nasadiya-suktam-before-big-bang.html

Question: Nobel Laureate Venkatraman Ramakrishnan called the Indian Science Congress a 'Circus'.

While I have no opinion on Indian Science Congress, I would have expected Venky to contribute it by changing what he thinks could be made to improve it.

While it is true that we had a treasure house of knowledge in many domains, it is also true that we have lost probably their meaning and application in many places.

I would advocate modern tools of science like experimental evidences and peer reviews to prove theories derived from ancient knowledge. I would definitely be lifting my work to reviews of both Sanskrit scholars and Scientific community, though it is a tough journey. I think I have several conclusions that probably are yet not known or fully understood. Currently it is just a work-in-progress and i am putting them out here just to get some very initial and primitive feedback, new dimensions of thoughts. I write them in a blog style rather than a serious work.

I wholeheartedly understand the skepticism and negativism that would come into play into even looking into such works. But that's where places like Indian Science Congress could help if they follow modern constructs, methods and tools in evaluating such works on ancient knowledge.

-TBT
 
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