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Staged Evolution

KRN

Active member
You did some brute search and showed some sentences.
Really? As far as I know, the Sanskrit language doesn't allow itself to any effective "brute search" method in Sanskrit texts. I might be wrong. Anyway the point is that, there are many instances where, not only the word Mooda, but a host of similar words are used by Sankara appropriately - and anyone who has been regularly perusing Sankara Bhashyam will be able to recognize that fact.

And as I mentioned earlier, I remember reading Sankara referring to the Buddha as a "mad man". In this forum there are others who have read Sankara's works in Sanskrit. If I am wrong, let them correct me.
 
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KRN

Active member
++++One has to understand and must be in search for truth to hold a reasonable and intelligent conversation. I have scaled back my expectations long ago (about 6 months ago after seeing your responses in the Chit chat thread
LOL. The first sentence is so very true in the light of your obnoxious behavious throughout.
I asked what this term means 6 months ago in the chit chat thread
and that I came across only your websites after some search
Once you revealed your profound ignorance of even fundamental terms like "staged evolution", which you are going to search in google first, what meaningful discussion is really possible with you?

If your attitude was good, I could have assumed a teaching position and shared the info.....

But to add to that ignorance an arrogant and obnoxious attitude to complete the picture..

Yeah 6 months ago I had resolved never to share any more information with you, in the light of the admonition in scriptures against people like you.

LOL I do randomly post in 2, 3 blogs. I never recommended my blogs anywhere - I always said that these things should be learnt from a Guru, so if you are cribbing about the blogs, you have yourself to blame :)
 
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a-TB

Well-known member
They were directly taken from the Sankara Bhashyas, as anyone remotely familiar with Sanskrit, will understand. Do you realize that, by saying "they do not count" you are insulting the readers of the forum who know Sanskrit?



Indeed! But where is your response to the above item except that "it doesnt count"?
And what is this "illogical statement from me" that you make such a show of challenging? Quote my exact words and the post number.
Again silliness. Bhashyas are not to be literally read. That again shows a naive view of the topics. Here people are not always Sanskrit scholars and neither are you though you want to pass off one by copying some text here and there, In reality you and I are at the same level. You and I are ignorant, only you claim to not know that by hiding behind some words. Scholars are at ease explaining. In fact the measure if scholarship is directly proportional to how they can explain to almost anyone.

All I ask you is : You produced two statements where the word Mooda was used. Please explain the topic discussed and your understanding and how Mooda is a name calling. It is your own post. I know you cannot take this challenge because you are clueless. In fact true progress happens when we admit our ignorance in such matters
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Really? As far as I know, the Sanskrit language doesn't allow itself to any effective "brute search" method in Sanskrit texts. I might be wrong. Anyway the point is that, there are many instances where, not only the word Mooda, but a host of similar words are used by Sankara appropriately - and anyone who has been regularly perusing Sankara Bhashyam will be able to recognize that fact.

And as I mentioned earlier, I remember reading Sankara referring to the Buddha as a "mad man". In this forum there are others who have read Sankara's works in Sanskrit. If I am wrong, let them correct me.
You are trivializing great works, It is not about usage of some word. You have to know the deep meaning and not view such things literally. That leads to shallowness. What makes you play all these games?? No one is impressed but if you explain well people appreciate. I came across one Swami Sarvapriyananda online. He is from Ramakrishana Mutt and young Sannyasi. He is so eloquent and makes compelex topic seem simple. That is scholarship
 

a-TB

Well-known member
LOL. The first sentence is so very true in the light of your obnoxious behavious throughout.

Once you revealed your profound ignorance of even fundamental terms like "staged evolution", which you are going to search in google first, what meaningful discussion is really possible with you?

If your attitude was good, I could have assumed a teaching position and shared the info.....

But to add to that ignorance an arrogant and obnoxious attitude to complete the picture..

Yeah 6 months ago I had resolved never to share any more information with you, in the light of the admonition in scriptures against people like you.

LOL I do randomly post in 2, 3 blogs. I never recommended my blogs anywhere - I always said that these things should be learnt from a Guru, so if you are cribbing about the blogs, you have yourself to blame :)
Sorry to burst your bubble. Let me share a secret. A confused person cannot teach anything to anyone. You are not a teacher or a student based on what you have posted. You have remained a bag of bones with some buzz words. A real learning will start when you admit ignorance

I only pointed out that online you find mostly utter nonsense. I just had curiosity and affirmed my view of your writing
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Really? I have given three citations. The words like Mooda, manda etc are commonly used in an impolite sense only. But here is the challenge for you. Engage yourself in exploring the context of each quote, and prove that in each context, they are used in a different meaning, different from the derogatory sense originally attributed to the word Mooda by sri tks. Here is an open challenge for you.

If you are not man enough to take up this challenge and prove your words true, then admit that the words are indeed used in the derogatory sense and shut up.



Well this thread was opened and addressed to sri tks, who must be able to make sense of the screenshots of pages in Sanskrit. I was wondering about his total silence. In his absence, this interaction with a-TB has only entertainment value.
First of all if you want to know the correct meaning of Mooda you can read the entirety of the Bhajagovindam thread except your posts.

Your citation was refuted. If you think you really made a point please engage in content oriented discussions. Make your case. Respond to what Mr tks said to your first example. It does not matter who is visiting here. You were out for 6 months. People come and go.

I know you will not engage in content oriented discussions. I even gave you another challenge. It is deceptively simple but to answer you have to understand and make it your own knowledge. Only then you can answer.

No point in beating a dead horse.

Let you stay the way you are and I accept you fully as you are. Let me stop debating with you. I should have taken a cue from Mr tks who intuitively knew not to get engaged with you.

We will talk about some mundane topics in other sections.

I wish you all the best, Be well
 

a-TB

Well-known member
I am done engaging with you in this thread, Mr KRN.
If you produce content oriented posts and answered the challenges made in this thread I will be happy to participate.

Since that is not going to happen let us agree to disagree about your levels of understanding and scholarship.
 

KRN

Active member
All I ask you is : You produced two statements where the word Mooda was used. Please explain the topic discussed and your understanding and how Mooda is a name calling. It is your own post. I know you cannot take this challenge because you are clueless. In fact true progress happens when we admit our ignorance in such matters
Hello Mr a-TB,
For the umpteenth time, let me inform you that it was the expressed understanding of sri tks, not mine, in the Bhaja Govindam thread, that the word Mooda is name-calling, and hence,in HIS understanding Sankara would have never used it in his works . You are twisting even the simplest facts and despite your cluelessness, or perhaps due to it, continue to make meaningless statements despite them having been refuted repeatedly here. In response to Sri tks, all that I had to do was to provide instances directly taken from Sankara, to the contrary.
Now, as a self appointed machan of the absent sri tks, If you think that, in the context of these quotes I provided, the word Mooda means something different from the understanding expressed by Sri tks that it is a denigratory word, as is commonly accepted too , then the onus is on YOU, Mr a-TB to prove it here. I have explained it in the simplest English, but instead of taking up the challenge you are running away.
 

KRN

Active member
Bhashyas are not to be literally read.
LOL.
Bhashyas have to be first read . You have revealed your "knowledge" by saying that the quotes do not count since they were in Sanskrit language. But I have expressly addressed them to Sri tks who, as the writer on Bhaja Govindam etc, must be aware of the Sanskrit. By jumping into this matter with your silly statements, lies and other obnoxious behaviour you have only made a laughing stock of yourself.


Here people are not always Sanskrit scholars and neither are you though you want to pass off one by copying some text here and there
A child with a basic schooling of Sanskrit language can figure out the meaning of the passage quoted by me. That's one more reason for the greatness of Sankara - he used the simplest language (Sanskrit can be an incredibly complex language in the hands of some) to explain his ideas.

But given the level of intelligence you have displayed here, I am not surprised by your statement above. Anything that anybody posts here in the Sanskrit language would seem to you like "passing off as a Sanskrit scholar", whereas my motive in posting the original Sanskrit was just to assist Sri tks in locating them easily in the works, and thus satisfy himself that what I have claimed earlier on the concept of "staged evolution" was indeed true, and directly from Sankara.
 

KRN

Active member
You are trivializing great works, It is not about usage of some word. You have to know the deep meaning and not view such things literally. That leads to shallowness.
This thread was opened solely to discuss the concept of "staged evolution", which is an extremely important topic.

The trivialization was done by YOU
with your unique and colossal ignorance, when you introduced here the entirely different and possibly trivial topic of "usage of words like Mooda" etc with the post #6 on Dec 11.

Now a few words on that "trivial" topic. In school we have studied stories like "Somu was a good boy. etc etc". Once we grow up, we realize that such stories are just trivializations, and real life can be extremely complex. Adi Sankara was an extremely brilliant person, and the Sankara whom we see through his works, was a complex personality too. I say this with all respect due to him. But my fidelity is always to the truth alone.

The trivialization was done by Sri tks who, with his statements that Sankara could not have used denigratory words like Mooda etc in his works, trivialized Sankara's personality into a "good boy Somu" image that is not consistent with what we see in Sankara's works. So the trivialization, if any, started when Sri tks expatiated by applying his prejudices against words like Mooda etc on Sankara, and veered away from the truth. On my part, I simply provided quotations from the Bhashyas that tell us that Sankara was a slightly more down-to-earth personality than the one sought to be portrayed by Sri tks.
 
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KRN

Active member
What makes you play all these games??
Indeed this is a query I wanted to ask you for many days. Either you are incredibly stupid, or extremely spiteful of me, to keep on telling lies, making baseless allegations against me.

For several weeks you have been saying you found "contradictions" in my "understanding" despite me clearly stating (multiple times) that I have merely quoted Sankara directly and have not ventured to provide my "understanding" anywhere! Finally I specifically asked you in post #57 at which you escape without replying :) You have no answer to the posts #59 or 60 either!
 

KRN

Active member
First of all if you want to know the correct meaning of Mooda you can read the entirety of the Bhajagovindam thread except your posts.

Your citation was refuted.
The way to refute a citation that "Sankara did use a word in some place in some work" is to show that the word is NOT used in that place in that work. Instead of blindly repeating some nonsense, show me where this refutation is done for the 3 quotes I gave.

In any case, that topic is NOT why this thread is opened. This thread is solely concerned with the concept of "Staged evolution" in Sankara philosophy, until it got hijacked into other trivial topics.
 

KRN

Active member
If you think you really made a point please engage in content oriented discussions. Make your case.
But there is no one to discuss with. I had opened this thread expecting to see a response from Sri tks but there was none till now. And from you there is only lies, misinterpretations and insults!
 
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KRN

Active member
Let you stay the way you are and I accept you fully as you are. Let me stop debating with you.
But where is the debate? Do you seriously call your behaviour as debate? In a debate opposing views need to be presented. Where are your points? What is your take on "staged evolution"?

When I ask you a few direct queries, in posts 57,59,60,61 you issue more lies or meaningless platitudes and run away!

Perhaps I should have asked these queries much earlier !
I should have taken a cue from Mr tks who intuitively knew not to get engaged with you.
LOL. I didn't know you have a way of seeing what goes on in another's mind. In that thread a few others have posted too, like madame renuka. I didn't see Sri tks engaging anyone in a discussion. He has clearly expressed that his purpose in opening the thread was to just update his thoughts in it - and that was what he was doing too, blog like.
 

KRN

Active member
Sorry to burst your bubble. Let me share a secret. A confused person cannot teach anything to anyone. You are not a teacher or a student based on what you have posted. You have remained a bag of bones with some buzz words. A real learning will start when you admit ignorance
The bubble is only in your own dreams or hallucinations.

I have NO bubble of becoming a "teacher" or a "student" here. I have never posted here, or in any blogs, on subtle topics like the nature of Brahman. I sometimes respond to threads on other topics, just for the joy of posting and discussing.

When I post here, my fidelity is only to the truth. My principle is Naamulam Likhyathey Kimchid Naanapekshithamuchyathey.

A person might be very good in explaining, but unless he also has fidelity to the truth, his statements will become "science fiction" and not science.

I only pointed out that online you find mostly utter nonsense. I just had curiosity and affirmed my view of your writing
I never sought your opinion nor care about it. Instead of replying to my queries, you have been sidetracking to irrelevant matters.
 
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a-TB

Well-known member
Hello Mr a-TB,
For the umpteenth time, let me inform you that it was the expressed understanding of sri tks, not mine, in the Bhaja Govindam thread, that the word Mooda is name-calling, and hence,in HIS understanding Sankara would have never used it in his works . You are twisting even the simplest facts and despite your cluelessness, or perhaps due to it, continue to make meaningless statements despite them having been refuted repeatedly here. In response to Sri tks, all that I had to do was to provide instances directly taken from Sankara, to the contrary.
Now, as a self appointed machan of the absent sri tks, If you think that, in the context of these quotes I provided, the word Mooda means something different from the understanding expressed by Sri tks that it is a denigratory word, as is commonly accepted too , then the onus is on YOU, Mr a-TB to prove it here. I have explained it in the simplest English, but instead of taking up the challenge you are running away.
Your messages thus far is but an example of how a frog in a well thinks. You are stuck in words without knowing the meaning, purport and how a word applies in the overall message. That requires understanding and ability to refute expanding on what you have stated. You may have coped from some book without comprehending and hence are unable to engage in content oriented dialog. Just so that you dont escape making claims and trying to see if you can be drawn into a content oriented discussion instead of spewing wasted words and insults here is one last attempt.

In post 17 of Bhajagovindam thread this was response to one of your claims.

Now the onus is on you to respond to that. You have not done that.

I have reproduced what was said there. Now respond to it with content.

"
You offered examples from Brahma Sutra Bhashyam and from Mandukya Upanishad Bhashyam about Bhashyakara's usage of words translated as 'low intellect'. I applaud you for providing concrete example to make your point. The context of usage is very different and not applicable in the context of the discussion about Bajagovindam and its usage of the word 'Moodamathe'. Let me offer very brief comments since I do not want to get distracted with discussions about these verses of Mandukya Upanishad at this point.

The quote of Bhashyakara that you provided from Mandukya upanishad (verse 12) actually makes reference to verse 16 of his Parmaguru's (Gaudapada) Karika in the Advita Prakararanam. He has provided commentaries on the verses of the Karika as well as you know. I am mentioning this only to provide a more holistic context in interpreting the word in question.

Madhyama means middle implying there is higher and lower. The Karika verse provides clarification on what these three are.

Intellect is not uniform across all people. Obviously there are people with higher intellect, people with lower intellect and those that lie closer to the median in a Gaussian curve. In the vision of Upanishads, intellect is actually an impediment because one has to dismantle so many wrong notions to arrive at the truth, if they are so fortunate. Nevertheless, intellect has a role to help one know all that is not the truth and it is valuable in that sense. It is also helpful to understand the teachings of a teacher whose pointing fingers point to the truth with the help of the Sruthi. But some people may not have the intellect to go beyond staring at the pointing fingers instead of looking at what is pointed.

For example, second sloka of Sri Dhakshinamurthi stotram shines light on cosmogony of the universe in the vision of the Upanishads. But then one does not need all those discussions if one truly understood the essence of the teachings of Mandukya Upanishad which has powerful analysis of the states of our existence. To appreciate the whole picture, where the teaching method involves deliberate superimposition only to be negated later, requires superior intellect. Many can get stuck in the seeming contradictions.

A person may already be striving to lead a life of a Karma Yogi but not have the emotional fortitude for Upasana (Middle case) and also not have the vision to follow the teachings as in the example above (manda buddhi). The purpose of the teaching is to dismantle the Ahankara through Sravanam, Mananam and Nidhdhyasanam (Brihadaranya Upanishad). Now a person who is given to a life of Karma yoga and not quiet there in terms of following the teaching due to poor vision of the teachings, is offered to meditate on Omkara. This is to extoll the virtues of Omkara as all-pervading silence (and not just removal of noise) with its ability to destroy Ahankara. This is suggested to such people and is viewed as an approach of compassion by the Sruth (as per the Karika verse 16). "

So refute the so called Karika verse and explain your understanding. Or best is to be silent. I know based on your past writing what you will do which is to say lot of useless words, insults and irrelevant things. The challenge is on,
 

a-TB

Well-known member
LOL.
Bhashyas have to be first read . You have revealed your "knowledge" by saying that the quotes do not count since they were in Sanskrit language. But I have expressly addressed them to Sri tks who, as the writer on Bhaja Govindam etc, must be aware of the Sanskrit. By jumping into this matter with your silly statements, lies and other obnoxious behaviour you have only made a laughing stock of yourself.



A child with a basic schooling of Sanskrit language can figure out the meaning of the passage quoted by me. That's one more reason for the greatness of Sankara - he used the simplest language (Sanskrit can be an incredibly complex language in the hands of some) to explain his ideas.

But given the level of intelligence you have displayed here, I am not surprised by your statement above. Anything that anybody posts here in the Sanskrit language would seem to you like "passing off as a Sanskrit scholar", whereas my motive in posting the original Sanskrit was just to assist Sri tks in locating them easily in the works, and thus satisfy himself that what I have claimed earlier on the concept of "staged evolution" was indeed true, and directly from Sankara.
OK, self proclaimed Sanskrit Scholar. Translate the passage below and provide the meaning

"evaM prApte, brUmaH — na tAvanmugdho jAgaritAvastho bhavitumarhati ; na hyayamindriyairviSayAnIkSate | syAdetat — iSukAranyAyena mugdho bhaviSyati — yathA iSukAro jAgradapi iSvAsaktamanastayA nAnyAnviSayAnIkSate, evaM mugdho musalasampAtAdijanitaduHkhAnubhavavyagramanastayA jAgradapi nAnyAnviSayAnIkSata iti ; na, acetayamAnatvAt ; iSukAro hi vyApRtamanA bravIti — iSumevAhametAvantaM kAlamupalabhamAno'bhUvamiti, mugdhastu labdhasaMjJo bravIti — andhe tamasyahametAvantaM kAlaM prakSipto'bhUvam , na kiJcinmayA cetitamiti | jAgratazcaikaviSayaviSaktacetaso'pi deho vidhriyate ; mugdhasya tu deho dharaNyAM patati | tasmAt na jAgarti | nApi svapnAnpazyati, niHsaMjJakatvAt "

It is from BrahmaSutra Bhashyam. Now you claim you can read Sanskrit and understand the meaning. Please explain
 

a-TB

Well-known member
I said I will not engage in non-content oriented discussions. I have tried one last time to steer you to content oriented discussions holding you accountable to your claims. You started this thread with a view to explain yourself by repetition and by copying & pasting. I have shown you that you have not answered one critique of your writing.

Do I know the scriptures and claim mastery. NO.
Can I sense a BS artist from a mile away, Yes indeed,

I like to learn here but from people who know. Most websites have useless info such as yours. I stay away from them.

Same with people calling themselves as Gurus.

My contribution is to expose wrong ideas in the forum. A person who knows what they write and know the references they quote are able to explain their own statements. I do not take you seriously and hence all your insults are source of laughter only.

My intent is not to expose your lack of logic any further. That will be Himsa and I like to live by the teaching "Ahimsa Paramo Dharma".

I have given you opportunities once again to engage in content oriented discussions. If you dont do that then let this thread stand as is, notwithstanding whatever useless words you continue to post wasting yours and everyone else's time.

Once again, let us chat about some mundane topics. Hope you are enjoying the Music season in Chennai. Hope you have a healthy and prosperous new year.
 

a-TB

Well-known member
While looking at your post #15 at the Bhajagovindam thread, here is what you have,

"Na hi avikaare anante brahmani sarvaih pumbhih sakyaam buddhih sthapayitum manda madhyottamabuddhitvaad pumsaamiti. (Brahma Sutra Bhashyam 3.2.33)

Meaning : For, as some men are of inferior, others middling, others again of superior intelligence, not all are capable of fixing their mind on the infinite Brahman devoid of any change or transformation. "

Taking whatever you copied and pasted as true, even for me who claims no special knowledge of such areas, I can see that this example is taken out of context. There is no name calling here.

Intellect in human beings can be inferior or middling (I guess average) or Superior. Using Intelligence they cannot fix their mind on Brahman (which I have read is beyond words).

In what way your example show Sankara is doing name calling of anyone? He seems to say intellect has no role in trying to understand Brahman. Using the word Manda is along with average and superior only covers all cases of human intellect.

Once again, this proves total cluelessness because there is no name calling of anyone here by Sankara. If your purpose is to show Sankara used the word Mooda or Mandha that is childish to bring to a serious discussion. Maybe now I can see why there was no response to you because the example is silly to bring up and has no applicability.

Both your examples have been refuted. Your misunderstanding of 'staged evolution' has been already explained (see my own posts earlier).

There is no more content to discuss unless there is an intelligent not Manda Mooda response ??
 

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