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Staged Evolution

KRN

Active member
There was a reference to me and my posts in an earlier discussion thread (at the fag end) in this forum, which however has been closed since then. As I was not frequenting this forum at that time, I happened to notice the reference to me only now. Here will respond to some of the points mentioned, as well as clarify one point, that may have been misinterpreted.


I was not able to readily locate the quoted segment of the Bhashya using the information provided . Context is most important to understand the full purport of a given segment.

I did not spend more time since it is tangential to the topic of this thread and I have showed already how the other example provided was not correctly interpreted.

If another thread was opened for further discussion I may have participated if there was a genuine desire to explore.
Dear Sir,

You specifically stated that something could not be found in Sankara's works. It was in direct response to your statement, that I provided quotations from Sutra Bhashyam.

If you could not locate a quotation from me in the Brahma Sutram, you should have stated that then and there. If you had showed genuine interest on your part to discuss and explore, I would have provided more information, like screenshots from the text. I have done that earlier in this forum.

Instead, you had pointedly declined to engage with me in further discussion on the topic, and that is why I stopped too. I have no intention to goad anyone into a discussion with me. There were a few others who had posted their views in your thread and I did not see you engaging in a discussion with them either. I understood that you were solely interested in posting your thoughts in that thread, blog-like, without engaging anyone in a discussion.

You never suggested opening another thread to continue the discussion, so it is not right on your part to state it as an omission on my part, that too in a discussion you were having with someone else, much later.
 
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KRN

Active member
The statement "Saguna Brahman as a staged evolution to Nirguna Brahman is well dealt with, in the Brahma Sutra Bhashyam" is not meaningful to me.
A possible and oversimplified interpretation of the statement is something like this. After death of the body , one could be born as a human or a......
Earlier in your thread you had stated that liberation is always instantaneous and pointedly refused to consider the concept of Staged evolution of a soul thru Saguna Brahman. Nice to see that your views have evolved since then, to a level where you started offering your own interpretation to the concept. Your refusal to accept the idea was another reason why I stopped the interaction, because in my understanding, it is one of the very fundamental ideas discussed in the upasana section of Brahma Sutram.
 
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KRN

Active member
In any case.....

Acharya Sankara considers two kinds of liberation - Sadyo mukti (immediate liberation) and Krama mukti (staged evolution to Brahman)

Staged evolution or Krama Mukti is explained in Brahma Sutra Bhashyam (1.1.12) and (1.3.13)



Coincidentially I happened to read those passages in the Brahma Sutram yesterday, so here I will upload screenshots of the passages from the Sutra bhashyam.

Since you know Sanskrit, I hope you would be able to locate and understand the lines in the page where Krama mukti is discussed.
 

Attachments

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KRN

Active member
As a bhakta you are most revered to me...my intention is not to set up a new discussion or debate. Here I just wanted to provide original sources to my earlier point on "staged evolution".
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Dear Mr KRN,

Welcome back to the forum. Perhaps you may have been active. Just noticed this thread and it caught my attention because I had opened a thread with almost the same name about 6 months ago

Reference: https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/threads/staged-evolution-of-brhaman.41076/

Originally you had stated "Saguna Brahman as a staged evolution to Nirguna Brahman is well dealt with, in the Brahma Sutra Bhashyam." which did not make sense when you stated so in the Bhaja Govindam thread (hence I opened another thread in the chit-chat section in June 2019). You corrected your own statement to mean "Staged evolution of soul"

There I said "Here is one more issues with staged evolution. Evolution means in time. There can be no other meaning. If soul has to migrate with Saguna in time and then merge with Nirguna in time later we have a problem. Because Brahman being the creator of time also cannot be controlled by evolution in time. "

The above contradiction was never answered by you.

I have been reading more than websites. In the great Mahavakya Tatvamasi it does not say you will be THAT over time. It says soul is here and now Brahman. So your usage of staged evolution does not square away with the Mahavakya.

You said what I had stated earlier is incomprehensible to you .

I was not able to find the phrase "Staged Evolution" since it is NOT universally used. You could have simply used the term Krama Mukthi which is well understood. Yes, I googled for that and understood what that means.

Krama Mukthi is NOT staged evolution of soul over time. I asked Mr tks to explain and sent private message to respond (since he rarely seem to visit the forum) and you had taken a break.

His answer is not evolution over time. It seemed to be without contradiction.

Since you dont want to open up a debate at this point let me leave your statements with the stated contradictions in place.

Regardless welcome back. It is always a pleasure to interact with you
 

a-TB

Well-known member
One more thing. In the Bhaja Govindam thread, post 16 you stated
"
Na hi avikaare anante brahmani sarvaih pumbhih sakyaam buddhih sthapayitum manda madhyottamabuddhitvaad pumsaamiti. (Brahma Sutra Bhashyam 3.2.33)"

Here in this thread you are quoting in Post 3
"Staged evolution or Krama Mukti is explained in Brahma Sutra Bhashyam (1.1.12) and (1.3.13) "

3.2.33 is wildly off as a context from (1.1.12 and 1.3.13). Just FYI
 

KRN

Active member
Welcome back to the forum. Perhaps you may have been active.
Thank you. I was away from all forms of social media for about 6 mths. I am responding to a few alerts that appeared when I logged in (signifying that some people have posted subsequently in discussion threads in which I had earlier participated)
 

KRN

Active member
One more thing. In the Bhaja Govindam thread, post 16 you stated
"
Na hi avikaare anante brahmani sarvaih pumbhih sakyaam buddhih sthapayitum manda madhyottamabuddhitvaad pumsaamiti. (Brahma Sutra Bhashyam 3.2.33)"

Here in this thread you are quoting in Post 3
"Staged evolution or Krama Mukti is explained in Brahma Sutra Bhashyam (1.1.12) and (1.3.13) "

3.2.33 is wildly off as a context from (1.1.12 and 1.3.13). Just FYI
You are mixing up totally different things.
Please read the threads and try to understand the context of each quote, before making such wild statements. That is just a way of showing respect to the other person.

Quote 3.2.33
In his bloglike posts on "Bhaja Govindam" Sri tks had stated that Sankara could not have used words like Moodha (~ a fool) in his works. As I have seen many similar words/usages in Sankara's works, I gave three quotes that I could immediately locate. 3.2.33 is one of these quotes that I have given. That is in the discussion in the thread titled "Bhaja Govindam". There are many other instances. For example, Sankara has referred to the Buddha in a very uncomplimentary way, almost calling him a "mad man". Now the point is, Sri Tks was foisting his own prejudices on Sankara, perhaps without reading his key works like the Brahma Sutra Bhashyam.

1.1.12 and 1.3.13
These quotes (with screenshots) are given in this thread and relate to Sankara's usage of the concept "Staged evolution". In his thread (which has since been closed) Sri tks had stated that liberation is always instantaneous for a soul, which is contrary to the basic concepts of Sruti and Smriti. When I mentioned about the well known discussion in the Upasana section of the Brahma Sutras, about Saguna brahman as a medium for "Staged evolution" of a soul, he dismissed it. Due to reasons already mentioned, I did not discuss this matter further with him, and just stopped further participation. However, due to the other reasons mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I have now given quotes with screen shots from original sources on "staged evolution" which anyone can independently verify.
 

KRN

Active member
Originally you had stated "Saguna Brahman as a staged evolution to Nirguna Brahman is well dealt with, in the Brahma Sutra Bhashyam." which did not make sense when you stated so in the Bhaja Govindam thread (hence I opened another thread in the chit-chat section in June 2019). You corrected your own statement to mean "Staged evolution of soul"
Your post is very funny. Well, let me explain. As I have mentioned many times, this is a very fundamental concept and almost an entire section of the Brahma Sutras deal with this concept in its various details. When I first mentioned it, I had assumed that Sri tks would have known it, as a person who has been writing on Bhaja Govindam etc, and would readily agree to it. So I just made that plain statement that you have quoted above.

It is like saying 5 + 6 = 11 in a normal conversation.

Now we dont usually say "5 + 6 = 11, in the decimal system. In the hexadecimal system, we represent it in other ways etc etc"

So when I said "staged evolution" it is implied "staged evolution of a soul "
Just like when Sri tks said "liberation is always instantaneous" without explicitly using the word "soul" we see the context and presume that he was referring to "liberation of a soul".

So I was not correcting anything mentioned earlier. In fact it is such a fundamental idea after all.
 

KRN

Active member
I have been reading more than websites. In the great Mahavakya Tatvamasi it does not say you will be THAT over time. It says soul is here and now Brahman. So your usage of staged evolution does not square away with the Mahavakya.
You may have been reading many things, but the above tells me that you have not been reading my posts earlier in this thread before rushing into posting. As I already mentioned, to take the time to read a person's posts, and see whether the so called "contradictions" are really contradictions, or whether they have been answered already, is a way of marking respect to the other.

If you cannot do even that then who will bother to chat with you?

Well, coming to your query, as I have mentioned already, Sankara considers two kinds of liberation. Tattwamasi kind of mahavakyas relates to Sadyomukti. Krama mukti or staged evolution of a soul, is different, as it is a path thru Saguna Brahman.

And please, as you can see from given screenshots etc from Sankaras works, it is not my staged evolution, but Sruti's, Sankaras.
 

KRN

Active member
I was not able to find the phrase "Staged Evolution" since it is NOT universally used. You could have simply used the term Krama Mukthi which is well understood. Yes, I googled for that and understood what that means.
Really? Your persumption astounds me. You seem to imply that anything that appears in your google search is a universal usage, and anything that doesn't come up there, is not "universal" !!. And how dare you presume to dictate to me that in my posts here, I should conform my posts to your Google guru??

Krama Mukthi is NOT staged evolution of soul over time. I asked Mr tks to explain and sent private message to respond (since he rarely seem to visit the forum) and you had taken a break.
Outside of your googling, have you taken up a single Sanskrit dictionary and tried to translate "Krama mukti" to English? Have you read a single translation of the canon where this phrase is used? Take up the Ramakrishna Math translation to the Brahma Sutras. How does the revered Swami there translate the word "krama mukti" in the work? Has he stated there "the soul reaches emancipation by stages, or not? Has he stated there that the soul evolves by stages or not? Just because you don't know even basic Sanskrit, to translate a word like "krama mukti" and too lazy to buy and read any of the translations of the Srutis, by great Swamis like of the Ramakrishna Order, do you have the presumption to say that their translation is NOT CORRECT, because your tks has not yet put his stamp of approval on it?

Dont you see how amusing you are?
 
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a-TB

Well-known member
You are mixing up totally different things.
Please read the threads and try to understand the context of each quote, before making such wild statements. That is just a way of showing respect to the other person.

Quote 3.2.33
In his bloglike posts on "Bhaja Govindam" Sri tks had stated that Sankara could not have used words like Moodha (~ a fool) in his works. As I have seen many similar words/usages in Sankara's works, I gave three quotes that I could immediately locate. 3.2.33 is one of these quotes that I have given. That is in the discussion in the thread titled "Bhaja Govindam". There are many other instances. For example, Sankara has referred to the Buddha in a very uncomplimentary way, almost calling him a "mad man". Now the point is, Sri Tks was foisting his own prejudices on Sankara, perhaps without reading his key works like the Brahma Sutra Bhashyam.

1.1.12 and 1.3.13
These quotes (with screenshots) are given in this thread and relate to Sankara's usage of the concept "Staged evolution". In his thread (which has since been closed) Sri tks had stated that liberation is always instantaneous for a soul, which is contrary to the basic concepts of Sruti and Smriti. When I mentioned about the well known discussion in the Upasana section of the Brahma Sutras, about Saguna brahman as a medium for "Staged evolution" of a soul, he dismissed it. Due to reasons already mentioned, I did not discuss this matter further with him, and just stopped further participation. However, due to the other reasons mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I have now given quotes with screen shots from original sources on "staged evolution" which anyone can independently verify.
It is best to stay with facts and logic and not make patronizing comments. That is not in line with the topic area.

Your examples of understanding of the usage of the word Mooda has been fully refuted (using your first example) but you insisted that there was no response the the second example (which was this Bhashya section of 3.2.33). Mr tks said he was not *readily* able to locate what you had quoted and hence did not spend much more time on that. So here when you came to show attachments of some other verse there was confusion on my part.

Term staged evolution is not a widely used term. You could have used the word Krama Mukthi in the first place and there are large number of information available online (no further reference would be warranted then). The question now is what you understand by the term Krama Mukthi. Is that in time? If it is you have contradiction with other teachings

Furthermore, you have not answered to the contradictions raised by your statements. You can quote scriptures here and there but my expectations is that one should be able to explain in simple language the issue raised using simple language (see post 5). Best to do that without innuendos and insults
 

a-TB

Well-known member
You may have been reading many things, but the above tells me that you have not been reading my posts earlier in this thread before rushing into posting. As I already mentioned, to take the time to read a person's posts, and see whether the so called "contradictions" are really contradictions, or whether they have been answered already, is a way of marking respect to the other.

If you cannot do even that then who will bother to chat with you?

Well, coming to your query, as I have mentioned already, Sankara considers two kinds of liberation. Tattwamasi kind of mahavakyas relates to Sadyomukti. Krama mukti or staged evolution of a soul, is different, as it is a path thru Saguna Brahman.

And please, as you can see from given screenshots etc from Sankaras works, it is not my staged evolution, but Sruti's, Sankaras.
I think you have not understood the contradictions pointed out. Please re-read what I have written and answer to the issue raised without resorting to innuendos and assumptions that are not valid.

Your understanding of the word "stages means time" is likely to be flawed is my conclusion. I have nothing but reverence to the scriptures. At question here are your statements and understanding you have provided. You are welcome to prove me wrong but please do that by sticking to the points raised
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Really? Your persumption astounds me. You seem to imply that anything that appears in your google search is a universal usage, and anything that doesn't come up there, is not "universal" !!. And how dare you presume to dictate to me that in my posts here, I should conform my posts to your Google guru??



Outside of your googling, have you taken up a single Sanskrit dictionary and tried to translate "Krama mukti" to English? Have you read a single translation of the canon where this phrase is used? Take up the Ramakrishna Math translation to the Brahma Sutras. How does the revered Swami there translate the word "krama mukti" in the work? Has he stated there "the soul reaches emancipation by stages, or not? Has he stated there that the soul evolves by stages or not? Just because you don't know even basic Sanskrit, to translate a word like "krama mukti" and too lazy to buy and read any of the translations of the Srutis, by great Swamis like of the Ramakrishna Order, do you have the presumption to say that their translation is NOT CORRECT, because your tks has not yet put his stamp of approval on it?

Dont you see how amusing you are?
Nothing amusing when you not answered the points raised. Krama Mukthi is a proper term. Purpose of using commonly accepted term is for clarity of communications.

You bring in irrelevant aspects just to dole out insults but the fundamental flw in your understanding remains. Tatvamasi is not an equation that is time bound!
 

KRN

Active member
Your examples of understanding of the usage of the word Mooda has been fully refuted (using your first example) but you insisted that there was no response the the second example (which was this Bhashya section of 3.2.33). Mr tks said he was not *readily* able to locate what you had quoted and hence did not spend much more time on that. So here when you came to show attachments of some other verse there was confusion on my part.
The simple question is, whether Sankara had used certain phrases like "manda" "moodha" etc. So the simple answer is Yes or No. And when I have given quotes directly from his works, it is easy to check Yes - they are there in the works, or No - those quotes arent there.

So where is that refuted? I dont see any refutal. Instead sri tks clearly stated he does not want to continue the discussion. He never mentioned there that he could not locate any of the quotes. Anyway if he or anyone else were genuinely interested in a discussion, I could have provided screenshots with the exact location of the quotes!
 

KRN

Active member
.
It is best to stay with facts and logic and not make patronizing comments. That is not in line with the topic area.
I have always given clear facts and logic, with quotes, screenshots. The patronizing statements came from YOU where you stated

- Krama Mukti is NOT "staged evolution", ie the Swamis of RK Order, who translated it this way are wrong, and Sanskrit dictionaries that translate these words thus, are ALL wrong

- And for you, a simple translation to a Sanskrit word, by great Scholars cannot be "universal" unless if it also throws up in your own google search

So you very patronizingly advise others to reject the standard, straight forward usage like "staged evolution" because for some reason its not coming up in your googling

- Even after I showed that Krama Mukti is very much part of Sankara's philosophy, you continue questioning it, confusing it with Tattwamasi etc.

In fact I am truly astounded by your statements.

Being patronizing cannot be an one way street.

-
 

KRN

Active member
Term staged evolution is not a widely used term. You could have used the word Krama Mukthi in the first place and there are large number of information available online (no further reference would be warranted then).
You have misinterpreted the context of the discussion.

I used the phrase in a message to Sri tks, who has posted on Bhaja Govindam etc and is presumably well versed on Sankara's philosophy.

I have learnt that advaita should always be learnt under the feet of a Guru, and never through google searches, thru websites, etc. Hence I would have never addressed such posts to anyone who is expecting to google on them, in the "large information available online".

That post was intended for someone who has some understanding of the contents of Brahma sutras.
 
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KRN

Active member
You bring in irrelevant aspects just to dole out insults
Really? Can you show me where I have insulted you? In response to your patronizing language, I adopted the same - for the reasons mentioned.

Your understanding of the word "stages means time" is likely to be flawed is my conclusion
I never said this. Probably something you got from your google searches.

The question now is what you understand by the term Krama Mukthi. Is that in time? If it is you have contradiction with other teachings
Better you ask such doubts with the websites you get your teachings from.

The scriptures like Gita sternly warn against revealing the intricacies of this philosophy, with people displaying certain characteristics. Hence I dont want to share any additional information on this topic with you.
 
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KRN

Active member
Just to recap..

The purpose of opening this thread, is in response to Sri tks's statement in the "Bhaja Govindam" thread (which has since been closed) that in Sankara philosophy, liberation is always instantaneous and that there is no "staged evolution". This is incorrect.

The purpose of this thread is to show that indeed this is a concept very much part of Sankara philosophy. Beyond that, however, I dont intend to respond to presumed contradictions etc in the concept itself. Since Sankara represents Advaita, perhaps a follower of Vishishtadvaita or dvaita will disagree with or find contradictions. Here I am not going to respond to all that. My purpose is to simply show that, yes, it is very much there in Sankara philosophy.

- As I stated above, in Sankara philosophy, there is both Sadyo mukti (immediate liberation) as well as Krama mukti (liberation through stages).

- In support I have quoted and provided screen shots from Brahma Sutra Bhashyam (1.1.12 and 1.3.13) where Sankara deals with krama mukti by name. There are many other places in his works where Sankara has dealt with this concept, directly or indirectly.

- The translation provided by Ramakrishna Math can also be referred, wherein the exact words emancipation, evolution through stages is used for Krama Mukti.

- Translations by RK MATH are well accepted, widely read among those interested in spirituality, of all generations, and anyone genuinely in learning about Sankara and his philosophy need have no qualms in accepting them. (Irrespective of whether they appear in google search or not)
 
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a-TB

Well-known member
The simple question is, whether Sankara had used certain phrases like "manda" "moodha" etc. So the simple answer is Yes or No. And when I have given quotes directly from his works, it is easy to check Yes - they are there in the works, or No - those quotes arent there.

So where is that refuted? I dont see any refutal. Instead sri tks clearly stated he does not want to continue the discussion. He never mentioned there that he could not locate any of the quotes. Anyway if he or anyone else were genuinely interested in a discussion, I could have provided screenshots with the exact location of the quotes!
Your understanding of the word Mooda is refuted on your first example. You had nothing to respond to then (for someone who never gives up). Let us leave it at that
 

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