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Entharo Mahanubhavulu...........

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Entharo Mahanubavulu…….

We have been witnessing here in this forum a lot of spirited arguments against the Brahmins for the varnasrama Dharma they are following. There are those who swear by their conviction on scientific scrutiny and come here to pour scorn and ridicule on the Brahmins and there are those who are cats on the wall who, after a feeble attempt to argue, give up and join the bandwagon and cry Jai ho! perhaps because that is the “in thing” to do. In the absence of a referee who can lay down the ground rules for a debate and guide it through pitfalls, every participant cries foul at some point and points the accusing finger at the other person debating with him. The only redeeming feature is that it has not reached the low levels which you witness in some of the other forums in the internet. I am fed up with the stone wall like refusal I come across in recognizing that casteism has nothing to do with Brahmins alone. It is a social evil for which the Hindu society as a whole is responsible-This is my case. But it is next to impossible to convince some one who is sold on the idea that Brahmins are responsible for castes. This I have put succinctly with the remark that “Even if you convert all the Brahmins into donkeys over night by waving a magic wand casteism will still exist here.” In order that readers get a balanced view of Brahmins I am giving here my encounters with some of the finest souls who were certainly Brahmins. If other readers have any such experiences/anecdotes to share please post them under this thread. Let the Brahmin bashing arm chair revolutionaries realize that there are other angles also to look from at Brahmins and that they are not such pig headed idiots as they are made out to be.


Mahanubhavulu 1.

I recently visited my village which is in the deep south far away from Chennai. As my car was reaching the village, the tamil song “then inimaiyilum yesuvin namam divya madhuramame…..”wafted through the air and kindled my childhood memories. The madan kovil where I, as a curious young boy had seen a goat being sacrificed in a gory ritual, the irrigation tank where I learnt the basics of swimming from my father, the meadows where I had played kabaddi and had indulged in fist fights with my friends over some foul play in the game, the Board Elementary School where I studied up to fifth class which has now become the Panchayath Union Secondary School with new concrete buildings with a mid-day meals kitchen -- these and many other landmarks were green in my memory because connected with each one of these was a tag in my mind in which was engraved a lesson learnt, a loss suffered, a passion unfulfilled, a moment enjoyed or a boon bestowed. I reached the agraharam which was a street with most of the houses dilapidated. There lived just one Brahmin family in that village, that of a bhattachar who did the pooja in the Sri Krishnan temple at the end of the street. The purpose of my visit to the village was to have darshan of the deity in the temple and pray.I had called the bhattachar over phone in the village post office and informed him in advance about my visit to the village.

As I entered the house of the bhattachar I could instantly realize that this man was very poor. There was no electricity in the house. Later I came to know that he could not afford the luxury of electricity. The clothes he, his wife and his daughter were wearing were cheap and faded. His belongings were very few. His family was very happy that I had come to the village. He took me to the temple and did some pooja in the temple. I could understand that he was fairly well versed in Vedas from the way he did the poojas. In my mind a question had been tormenting me and before leaving the village back for home I gathered enough courage and asked him the question. What on earth was holding him back in the village which was obviously eons away from civilization. He could have lived comfortably if he too, like others from that village, had moved to city. In a very disarming casual way he said he did not want to leave the perumal and go any where. Even though the tenant who was cultivating the temple lands had stopped giving any paddy he still managed to live there and take care of the perumal also. He said that gives him happiness which he may not get if he goes to a city. That was a revealing moment for me. The poverty and deprivation was sitting lightly on him. It was a yajna which he was performing there in that remote village quietly. I felt humbled, saluted him and drove my car towards Tirunelveli. He is one among the great souls I had the fortune to meet.
 
Entharo Mahanubhavulu................

Sir,
I agree with you that only Brahmin community cannot be blamed for the
caste distinction in Hindus.All the communities have to share the blame.
I have attended Gita Lectures in Ramakrishna Math in Secunderabad
and RANGANADANANDA used to say how the downfall of the Varna system (often mistaken as Caste system) came about.
Brahmins as the preserver of Knowledge was given the top position in the SOCIAL ORDER and Brahmins were always economically weak and the other groups supported them economically.Kshatriyas were to be the ruling class. The system was working nicely for a long time. Monkeys are our forefathers and so we as HUMANS OFTEN RESORT TO monkey MIND.
kASHTRIYAS WITH POWER AND BRAHMINS WITH KNOWLEDGE
JOINED TOGETHER AND STARTED CHEATING THE OTHER groups.
THIS WAS THE STARTING POINT OF DEGENERATION IN HINDU SOCIETY.
RANGANADANANDA WAS A GREAT and REPUTED SCHOLAR.
BRAHMINS HAVE TO SHARE A MAJOR PORTION OF THE BLAME
AS THE pRESERVER OF KNOWLEDGE IN THE GROUP.
B.K.
 
Dear Raju, all your editorial comments can be directed right back at you -- things like, impossibility to convince, stonewall etc. In fact it will be true in that case. From the discussions I have had with you, you have refused to accept or refuse to give a reasonable response on two questions. Here they are. Please give an answer instead of accusing us in this side as stubborn.

  1. How come the present day orthodox brahmin Sri Vasihnavas and Acharyas refuse to adopt even the narrow way in which commentators like Swami Sri Periyavachchan Pillai have interpreted Azhvar's revolutionary words? For more details of this look at this post.
  2. Next is about the issue you have raised here, the responsibility of Brahmins for the caste system. Here is my post. Your answer was, "As we have diametrically opposite POVs it is not possible to have a fruitful dialogue.". Now, who is being obstinate?
Now, having not answered the above questions you resume with:

....I am fed up with the stone wall like refusal I come across in recognizing that casteism has nothing to do with Brahmins alone.

Well, well, fed up, are you? Relax brother, we are just shooting the breeze.

By slipping in the word "alone" you have turned your argument into a strawman. I don't think anybody was arguing, least of all me, that only brahmins are responsible for Varnashrama system. If you agree that Brahmins are also responsible then we are making progress.

Next, the remaining point is that Brahmins provide the intellectual justification with their shruthi and smrithi. This is very simple. Either show me that this is not true, or accept what I am saying. You can't just say nothing and then say we on this side are obstinate. You can't have it both ways.

... it is next to impossible to convince some one who is sold on the idea that Brahmins are responsible for castes.
I am sold on this idea for the reasons stated above. Tell me in a convincing way why I am wrong. Just throwing invectives may make you feel good for a little bit, but does no good for nobody.


..“Even if you convert all the Brahmins into donkeys over night by waving a magic wand casteism will still exist here.”
Having produced this baby, what is the point in telling even if the parents are dead and gone, the baby will still be alive?

Instead, let me suggest something else, let the Brahmin orthodoxy renounce Manu and other Dharmashashthras and make Varna dharma invalid for Kali Yugam. Let them encourage all their sishyas to renounce caste in all their religious activities. That will strike a deadly blow at the foundation of caste. That is the proper analogy, not turning all Brahmins into donkeys. Both have equal chance of actually happening, i.e. zero.

....Let the Brahmin bashing arm chair revolutionaries realize that there are other angles also to look from at Brahmins and that they are not such pig headed idiots as they are made out to be.
There are angles eveywhere. They are angles not because they are brahmins or whatever, they are angles because of their character. The story of the Bhattachar you describe has nothing to do with he being a Brahmin. I have also visited a lot of temples in obscure places. In these temples there are people who are not Brahmins equally committed and who refuse to leave the town because of their attachment to their town's perumal. What makes a person an angel is not whether he/she is a brahmin or whatever caste they were born into. Look to Thiruvalluvar for a definition:

குணநலம் சான்றோர் நலனே பிறநலம்
எந்நலத்து உள்ளதூம் அன்று. #982


பிறநலம் in which such things as brahmin birth fall under, has no role in it. One more about what makes angels:

அன்புநாண் ஒப்புரவு கண்ணோட்டம் வாய்மையொடு
ஐந்துசால்பு ஊன்றிய தூண். #983


Nothing to do with being a brahmin, only with exalting traits such as love, modesty, generosity, fair outlook, and truthfulness. The Bhattachar you described is a mahanubavu because of these qualities, not because he is a brahmin. Even those who clean toilets can be such angles if they possess these qualities.

Alright, now, I once again request you to answer my questions, or stop calling us on this side, obstinate.

Cheers!
 
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Sir,
I agree with you that only Brahmin community cannot be blamed for the
caste distinction in Hindus.All the communities have to share the blame.
I have attended Gita Lectures in Ramakrishna Math in Secunderabad
and RANGANADANANDA used to say how the downfall of the Varna system (often mistaken as Caste system) came about.
Brahmins as the preserver of Knowledge was given the top position in the SOCIAL ORDER and Brahmins were always economically weak and the other groups supported them economically.Kshatriyas were to be the ruling class. The system was working nicely for a long time. Monkeys are our forefathers and so we as HUMANS OFTEN RESORT TO monkey MIND.
kASHTRIYAS WITH POWER AND BRAHMINS WITH KNOWLEDGE
JOINED TOGETHER AND STARTED CHEATING THE OTHER groups.
THIS WAS THE STARTING POINT OF DEGENERATION IN HINDU SOCIETY.
RANGANADANANDA WAS A GREAT and REPUTED SCHOLAR.
BRAHMINS HAVE TO SHARE A MAJOR PORTION OF THE BLAME
AS THE pRESERVER OF KNOWLEDGE IN THE GROUP.
B.K.

Sri.B.Krishnamurthy,

Sri.Raju is expressing his opinions peacefully. I do not understand the need for you to shout at Sri.Raju. Thank you.

Cheers!
 
[QUOT

I reached the agraharam which was a street with most of the houses dilapidated. There lived just one Brahmin family in that village, that of a bhattachar who did the pooja in the Sri Krishnan temple at the end of the street. .........................................

As I entered the house of the bhattachar I could instantly realize that this man was very poor. There was no electricity in the house. Later I came to know that he could not afford the luxury of electricity. The clothes he, his wife and his daughter were wearing were cheap and faded. His belongings were very few. His family was very happy that I had come to the village. He took me to the temple and did some pooja in the temple. I could understand that he was fairly well versed in Vedas from the way he did the poojas............................................................................. Even though the tenant who was cultivating the temple lands had stopped giving any paddy he still managed to live there and take care of the perumal also. He said that gives him happiness which he may not get if he goes to a city. That was a revealing moment .............................................................................................[/QUOTE]

Let the bhattchriar take care of Perumal.. In what way we can be of some help and assistance to him ...did u think of that....or shall we think at least now..?



Greetings
 
[QUOT

I reached the agraharam which was a street with most of the houses dilapidated. There lived just one Brahmin family in that village, that of a bhattachar who did the pooja in the Sri Krishnan temple at the end of the street. .........................................

As I entered the house of the bhattachar I could instantly realize that this man was very poor. There was no electricity in the house. Later I came to know that he could not afford the luxury of electricity. The clothes he, his wife and his daughter were wearing were cheap and faded. His belongings were very few. His family was very happy that I had come to the village. He took me to the temple and did some pooja in the temple. I could understand that he was fairly well versed in Vedas from the way he did the poojas............................................................................. Even though the tenant who was cultivating the temple lands had stopped giving any paddy he still managed to live there and take care of the perumal also. He said that gives him happiness which he may not get if he goes to a city. That was a revealing moment .............................................................................................

Let the bhattchriar take care of Perumal.. In what way we can be of some help and assistance to him ...did u think of that....or shall we think at least now..?



Greetings[/QUOTE]

It is the condition of most of the village temples today. In my native village also, the tenants of the land are not giving any rent and the Executive Officers of the temple administration are keeping total silence about it.

Why don't the Government controlled HRCE administration auction the land for cultivation every year and collect part of the committed amount as advance deposit from the tenants. Balance they can collect it by enforcing Revenue Recovery Act. Parallely they can have crop insurance and if the crop fails, they can collect the claims directly from the insurance company.

Since the Hindu temple administration is controlled by Government, they have to do something.

As Sri Suryakasyapa suggested, we can do some thing to the Battachariar in between.

All the best
 
B.Krishnamurthy,
//kASHTRIYAS WITH POWER AND BRAHMINS WITH KNOWLEDGE
JOINED TOGETHER AND STARTED CHEATING THE OTHER groups.
THIS WAS THE STARTING POINT OF DEGENERATION IN HINDU SOCIETY.
RANGANADANANDA WAS A GREAT and REPUTED SCHOLAR.
BRAHMINS HAVE TO SHARE A MAJOR PORTION OF THE BLAME
AS THE pRESERVER OF KNOWLEDGE IN THE GROUP.//


Could you please elaborate? who was cheated and how?
 
//Let the bhattchriar take care of Perumal.. In what way we can be of some help and assistance to him ...did u think of that....or shall we think at least now..?//

Dear Mr. Surya kachyapa,
I have not given the full conversation between me and the bhattachar as it would have made the narration too long and would have shifted the focus from the issue I was writing about. Suffice it to say that the Bhattachar was a proud man who would not ask for any help.As i thought it would be unwise to offer him any financial help i have taken care of his problems through whatever influence i have in HRCE Board at the Head quarters level to make sure that he gets at least what is due to him from the lands of the temple.The natives of the village who are well off have also offered him a regular salary in cash every month.
 
Dear Mr. RVR,
//Why don't the Government controlled HRCE administration auction the land for cultivation every year and collect part of the committed amount as advance deposit from the tenants. Balance they can collect it by enforcing Revenue Recovery Act. Parallely they can have crop insurance and if the crop fails, they can collect the claims directly from the insurance company.//
The Govt. wont do any of what you have suggested. It is not that the Govt. is unaware of what is happening to the temple properties. Here again the caste factor is playing its role.The tenants are mostly from the dominant castes. The party in power needs their support for its day to day survival. If they touch the temple lands and bring about any reform, they will be stirring a hornets nest. The caste chieftains will deny votes to the party which goes against their interests. So you see. It is a beautifully efficient system where every one benefits as long as the boat is not rocked.The God will not complain. It is only the poor bhattachar who suffers.But then who cares.
 
Entharo Mahanubhavulu................

Sir,
I have only quoted the opinion expressed by a learned Scholar
from RAMAKRISHNA MUTT Late Shri.Ranganadandaji.It is not my personal opinion. At that point of time Hindu Society consisted of other group of people apart from 'Brahmins' and 'Kashtrias' and these groups slowly lost confidence of these two groups as they felt cheated and the 'DIVIDE' among the groups started.
Even as a young student 50years ago( a smartha Brahmin) I have felt discrimination whenever I visited my classmate house(AN IYENGAR) in SRIRANGAM.
If my comment has, in anyway, offended anyone I seek apology.It is not my intention to hurt anyone.
B.K.
 
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Sir,
I have only quoted the opinion expressed by a learned Scholar
from RAMAKRISHNA MUTT Late Shri.Ranganadandaji.It is not my personal opinion. At that point of time Hindu Society consisted of other group of people apart from 'Brahmins' and 'Kashtrias' and these groups slowly lost confidence of these two groups as they felt cheated and the 'DIVIDE' among the groups started.
Even as a young student 50years ago( a smartha Brahmin) I have felt discrimination whenever I visited my classmate house(AN IYENGAR) in SRIRANGAM.
If my comment has, in anyway, offended anyone I seek apology.It is not my intention to hurt anyone.
B.K.

Shri Krishnamurthy had bitter experience of discrimination by an Iyengar family 50 years ago. I too met the same when I went to see one of my colleagues and I was offered water and after I took it, the wife of my colleague told me to keep it in a separate place shown by her as of I am untouchable.

Even now we have been experiencing ( smartha brahmins ) in our office totally discriminated by these Iyengar people. When I brought this issue recently in this thread, I do not remember the member's name that I am playing divisive /hatred towards Iyengars.

We smarthas are worshipping all the deities but what about Iyengar , do they worship Shiv , Parvathy, Murugan other than Vishnu and Lakshmi.

I am sorry, I have expressed my anguish and the truth whether anybody accepts or not.

PANCHANATHAM CHANDRASEKAR
 
Dear PANCHANATHAM CHANDRASEKAR & B. Krishnamoorthy:

I am terribly sorry to read that you were mistreated by some ignorant Iyengars. By the same token, I could tell dozens of stories of Iyers bad-mouthing Iyengars and calling them as false Brahmins, Brahman-converts, etc. I can only say that these are ignorant and not enlightened souls.
However, please do not form opinions based on a few bad apples. This Forum is supposed to bridge these gaps among ALL brahmins. Let us work towards that common goal.
Thank you.
 
Dear Mr Narayanan,
This is my reply. It is a bit long.I cant help it.

//1. How come the present day orthodox brahmin Sri Vasihnavas and Acharyas refuse to adopt even the narrow way in which commentators like Swami Sri Periyavachchan Pillai have interpreted Azhvar's revolutionary words? For more details of this look at this post.
2. Next is about the issue you have raised here, the responsibility of Brahmins for the caste system. Here is my post. Your answer was, "As we have diametrically opposite POVs it is not possible to have a fruitful dialogue.". Now, who is being obstinate?
//

We will come to this latter.

//By slipping in the word "alone" you have turned your argument into a strawman. I don't think anybody was arguing, least of all me, that only brahmins are responsible for Varnashrama system. If you agree that Brahmins are alsoresponsible then we are making progress.//

Please read my post no.60 dated 18/11/09,21 dated 16/11/09,174 dated 1/12/09, and 179 dated 2/12/09 under the thread “Enge Srivaishnavam” again and also all my posts under the thread “Is caste……..”. I have been consistently saying the same thing. 1) that calling the obscurantism by the name brahminism is not correct because Brahmins alone are not responsible for the castes.2)that every other caste other than the panchaman was interested in keeping the caste system working and alive.3)That Brahmins being a microscopic minority in the total population at all time had little say in the way the caste system worked. You have been repeatedly attacking the Brahmins for the ills of casteism as if they are the ones responsible for it. You have not so far accepted at any point even remotely that the other three castes had a major role in determining the discriminatory practices enforced in the society in the name of caste. Even today it is these three castes who call the shots when it comes to caste discriminations. Now let me ask you a simple question. Why do you bother so much about 2% of the population leaving aside the 98%(you have so far never criticized them –not a word). Can any one believe that the 2% rules the 98%? Even if for arguments sake we presume that the Brahmins give intellectual justification for the caste discrimination why do you bother about this “lunatic” fringe? Is it not an obsession? Even for arguments sake if you apportion 2% of the blame on Brahmins what do you do with the balance 98%? If you are going to say knowledge is power and Brahmins had the knowledge you will have to answer the question that begs automatically—knowledge of what? Is it spiritual knowledge? Or is it the knowledge of which side of the bread is buttered? Of how to operate the levers of control to control others? Of how to use the money and muscle power to achieve one’s cherished goals? If your answer is the first one then you are not in touch with reality. If your answer is the second, third and fourth given above then you must admit that Brahmins were lacking in that kind of knowledge. All along Brahmins had never pursued wealth and power. They were after spiritual knowledge and they were always economically poor, numerically negligible and politically inconsequential. And you are relentlessly flogging them believing that that would eradicate the caste discriminations from the hindu society. This is the reason why I told you that you are barking up the wrong tree. And that even if you convert all Brahmins overnight into donkeys, caste system will continue here. I have repeatedly said that Brahmins just played along but then do you think they had an option?


//next, the remaining point is that Brahmins provide the intellectual justification with their shruthi and smrithi. This is very simple. Either show me that this is not true, or accept what I am saying. You can't just say nothing and then say we on this side are obstinate. You can't have it both ways.//

With “their” Shruthi and smruthi ? What do you mean? As long as it was convenient for the kshatriyas, Vyshyas and Shudras the shruti and smruthi were owned by them. They even claimed that Manu in whose name there stands a smruthi was a Kshatriya but when things became hot and unbearable they disown it all and act as if it is all Brahmins’ making. I have been questioning only this hypocracy. Where is your answer to this? About the so called intellectual justification I have already answered in the paragraph above. I do not want to repeat. Suffice it if you would answer my question there-who would believe that 2% of the population justified something which was not acceptable to the rest of 98% and yet they were suckers and accepted whatever justification was given by the micro minority? This is really a cock and bull story indeed and netizens who read this would chuckle at the sheer audacity of it. And to reiterate my point I would like to state just one instance from history. There was a king , a kshatriya, who when got angry with a Brahmin asked his servants to throw the Brahmins into the sea tied to a stone pillar.History is replete with such examples. So Brahmins were not at commanding heights to shape the society: there were others.


//Just throwing invectives may make you feel good for a little bit, but does no good for nobody.//

This is an issue I have been grappling with whenever I debate with you. When the debate becomes quite involved and focused you would blame that I am using invectives or that I am writing irrelevant things, or that I am writing long winding answers. I use English the way I have learnt it. You may be better in its usage economically. But look at the subject and be objective. Don’t hit at me and become subjective. Now tell me what invectives I have used.I am conscious of my responsibilities to the readers.


//Having produced this baby, what is the point in telling even if the parents are dead and gone, the baby will still be alive.//

Parents are very much alive. Only they have disowned the baby because the baby is unwanted in the present circumstances.

//Instead, let me suggest something else, let the Brahmin orthodoxy renounce Manu and other Dharmashashthras and make Varna dharma invalid for Kali Yugam. Let them encourage all their sishyas to renounce caste in all their religious activities. That will strike a deadly blow at the foundation of caste. That is the proper analogy, not turning all Brahmins into donkeys. Both have equal chance of actually happening, i.e. zero.//

I have already said that even if what you say is implemented, the caste discrimination will be kept alive and kicking by the dominant castes for their own entrenched reasons. Brahmin orthodoxy is in the inconsequential fringe. What they say and do has no effect on other communities. For majority of the population the Brahmin matoms are weird places where they speak in strange language about strange things like atma and other world. It is a sheer waste of time to go there.



//There are angles eveywhere. They are angles not because they are brahmins or whatever, they are angles because of their character. The story of the Bhattachar you describe has nothing to do with he being a Brahmin. I have also visited a lot of temples in obscure places. In these temples there are people who are not Brahmins equally committed and who refuse to leave the town because of their attachment to their town's perumal. What makes a person an angel is not whether he/she is a brahmin or whatever caste they were born into.//

To this I would just say that the bhattachar is indeed a Brahmin because that is the way the society identifies him. That is the reason why he is denied his legitimate wages by way of paddy. And that is the reason why the tenant in the village goes scot free inspite of his illegal action. Wherever he goes this tag will always be there with him in this society. So this angle cannot be ignored or wished away.


//The Bhattachar you described is a mahanubavu because of these qualities, not because he is a brahmin. Even those who clean toilets can be such angles if they possess these qualities.//

Already answered. Please read the above paragraph.The reality is that the toilet cleaner will be an angel but all the same the bhattachar will have to be flogged for that angel having to clean toilets.

Cheers.
 
1. How come the present day orthodox brahmin Sri ....
2. .....post. Your answer was, "As we have diametrically
...

We will come to this latter.


Will wait for your answers.

As for the rest, I have answers for all of your points in my response to hari in this post. Please read them there.

.... You have been repeatedly attacking the Brahmins for the ills of casteism as if they are the ones responsible for it.
This forum is called Tamilbrahmins.com. What is the point of me talking about OBC's culpability here? Further, through accident of birth, I was born into a Brahmin family. This is another reason for addressing Brahmins to do some self-critical thinking that you call "attacking" brahmins.

We have already talked about this 2% v. 98% thing sometime back I think. The hierarchical system puts everyone in the minority if he wants to reform and everyone in the majority for preserving the system. As you get trampled, there is always someone else you can trample on.

When the Britishers ruled India what % of the population you think they were? Even 2% is way too much if you hold the reigns of power.


........ Now tell me what invectives I have used.I am conscious of my responsibilities to the readers.
I was referring to your phrases, "Brahmin bashing arm chair revolutionaries" and "stone wall like refusal". If invectives is too harsh a word to describe these, then I will take it back and express my regret at calling them that.

Cheers!
 
In a room with 100, 98 people are dravidians and 2 people are namesake brahmins.By sheer intelligence and hardwork these two people come and excel,become notional ruling elite.But for the rest 98 people,its not tolerable.What a give away,for discrimination.So,its dolt heads who will rule,with goonda raj,atheistic jingoism only for hindus and for rest of the minority religion,their god is excellent-some nerve the dravidians have got and we tolerate them out of compassion for charavakar.

nachi naga.
 
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.... the wife of my colleague told me to keep it in a separate place shown by her as of I am untouchable.

One single cut is so painful, but the thousands of cuts routinely meted out by smarthas and Sri vaishnavas alike, each and every day, for centuries is no more tolerable for those who are to clean without being seen or heard. Did the smarthas and SVs just go long with it, or the OBCs force you guys into it?

Thanks!
 
One single cut is so painful, but the thousands of cuts routinely meted out by smarthas and Sri vaishnavas alike, each and every day, for centuries is no more tolerable for those who are to clean without being seen or heard. Did the smarthas and SVs just go long with it, or the OBCs force you guys into it?

Thanks!

As a dalit i would tolerate this kind of lunacy and bid my time to come to it later. I get hurt only if I visit the household of such lunatics. But what about those majority who take away my lands, deny me the right to even subsist, insist that i should do all menial labour in their farms and houses, take away my women folks as and when they want and kill, burn and rape my brothers and sisters wantonly? And more importantly what about those pseudo revolutionaries and intellectuals who point the accusing fingers at the brahmins for all these atrocities? If it comes to a choice between keeping the body and soul together and insisting on treatment with respect, my priorities are clearly with the first task. First I have to live to demand dignity.
 
//This forum is called Tamilbrahmins.com. What is the point of me talking about OBC's culpability here?//

Without talking about OBC/BC culpability you are not touching even the periphery of the problem leave alone dealing with the core because for the dalits who suffer today any talk about casteism which bashes the Brahmins and leaves the OBC/BC is just equivocation/hypocracy. Even in the TB community when dealing with a social issue we need not use kid gloves when it comes to atrocities by dominant castes.

//Even 2% is way too much if you hold the reigns of power.//

Brahmins were never holding the reigns of power. Period.
 
Dear PANCHANATHAM CHANDRASEKAR & B. Krishnamoorthy:

I am terribly sorry to read that you were mistreated by some ignorant Iyengars. By the same token, I could tell dozens of stories of Iyers bad-mouthing Iyengars and calling them as false Brahmins, Brahman-converts, etc. I can only say that these are ignorant and not enlightened souls.
However, please do not form opinions based on a few bad apples. This Forum is supposed to bridge these gaps among ALL brahmins. Let us work towards that common goal.
Thank you.

Dear Mr.Silverfox,

Iam sorry your reply clearly shows to counter my case . Leave alone the humanbeings (smartha brahmins) whether any of the so called Iyengar enter any Sivan temple or Murugan temple other than Perumal temple. THEY SAY " SINGAMEY THURATTHINALUM SIVAN KOVILUKKUL NUZHAYAMATTEN" . When they are not sparing the God (Lord Shiva and other saivaite Gods) where we ,the ordinary human beings go.

They always think as if they are superior to others. Because of their ignorant attitude, the total brahmin community has been condemned by others.

When there is a huge division between Vadakalai and Thenkalai, then think about smartha brahmins ?
 
Sri Panchanathan Chandrasekar,

I wish let us not magnify few instances where both sects would have exceeded their limits.

There are lot of instances where all the brahmin communities have united and achieved great things in Tamilnadu.

I would like you to read the history of National College, Trichy which was founded by joint efforts of Iyers and Iyengars in Trichy way back in 1919.

The college was part of freedom movement. The college was nursed to the present position by Principal Saranathan who is an Iyengar by birth. He didn't adopt married life, didn't even take salaries when the college was in financial difficulties but is regarded as the Architect of this great institution. His eminent student includes late Sri R.Venkataraman - former President of India.

Today the institution has developed a ladies college, an engineering college and lot of schools in and around Trichy. Both Iyers and Iyengars are jointly continuing this noble work for almost two centuries.

I am a smartha brahmin by birth and is an alumini of this great institution. Inspite of the problems created to our communities, these instituions have stood against all onslaughts and grown in size and quality.

Recently when the present Acharyas of Kanchi mutt were arrested, one lady Iyengar Advocate Revathi Vasudevan stood against the mighty Government and was forced to take anticipatory bail to avoid being arrested.

Let us use our resources to build some thing for the entire TB community. The challenges before us are very big and talking about small incidents here & there will not help our cause.

Most of the poor TB community members don't even understand the difference in schools of thought of Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhva. For them day to day life is the biggest problem.

I earnestly request you not to post one or two minor incidents and create divisions among various sects of TBs.

All the best
 
Shri Krishnamurthy had bitter experience of discrimination by an Iyengar family 50 years ago. I too met the same when I went to see one of my colleagues and I was offered water and after I took it, the wife of my colleague told me to keep it in a separate place shown by her as of I am untouchable.

Even now we have been experiencing ( smartha brahmins ) in our office totally discriminated by these Iyengar people. When I brought this issue recently in this thread, I do not remember the member's name that I am playing divisive /hatred towards Iyengars.

We smarthas are worshipping all the deities but what about Iyengar , do they worship Shiv , Parvathy, Murugan other than Vishnu and Lakshmi.

I am sorry, I have expressed my anguish and the truth whether anybody accepts or not.

PANCHANATHAM CHANDRASEKAR
Dear Mr Chandrasekhar,
Cleaning the place and washing the utensils used by any stranger was a common practice among all brahmins because of their obsessive concern with diseases and germs. There are two communities among the Christians in kerala-Knanaya Christians and Jacobites -who give the same treatment to any visitor to their homes even today.It has become almost a fetish with these families just as the elderly brahmins in Tamilnadu.It has been painful to you because they did it so openly unlike the kerala christians.
About vaishnavites worshipping only Vishnu and lakshmi, it has its roots in the philosophy which is a lengthy subject. Suffice it to say that the vaishnavites are fierce monotheists and so they worship only one God as god.They have no disrespect for others' belief. But they dont expect you to insist on their worshiping many gods. It is a question of faith.It is just like saying let us agree to disagree.
 
... .... any talk about casteism which bashes the Brahmins and leaves the OBC/BC is just equivocation/hypocracy.

Raju, I have been called lots of names, here in this forum, and elsewhere also. I try not to take any of them seriously, especially considering some of them may not be far from the truth. But, the one epithet that is hard for me to swallow, is "hypocrite."

In the year 1997 I traveled to Azhvar Thirunagari right in the midst of caste riots. I got stuck there for almost a week. The taxi driver was too afraid to drive me back to Madurai. There, in Azhvar Thirunagari streets, I witnessed roving gangs with sickle in hand looking for some action.

So, I am fully aware of the caste conflicts between OBC and the Dalits, I have firsthand knowledge of it. I have also cited these and other incidences of violence perpetrated by the caste Hindus against Dalit in various threads here. But, no OBC has yet challenged me that they are not responsible and it is all the Brahmin's fault. If anyone makes such a statement I will not hesitate even a moment to oppose it with equal vigor.

The only resistance I have had here is push back from Brahmins, who, after creating this monster, protecting and defending it with their religious texts, routinely benefiting from it both socially and economically, now refuses to take any responsibility at all for the actions of this monster. Who indeed is a hypocrite?

Raju, my interest in this forum is to speak to the brahmins on behalf of the millions of Dalits on whose labor my own forefathers benefited and passed on the economic, social, and cultural capital down to my generation because of which I am successful.

If I was born into a dalit family I am most likely be already dead or worse, living under the brutal oppression of some OBC. While I will be mad as hell with the OBC oppressors, I am going to be equally, or even more angry with those who tell the OBCs that I deserve my state, god made me untouchable, and god says it is ok to treat me that way.

IMO, unless brahmins come to terms with this issue, they are going to be blamed for every act of caste-based violence, even though they don't participate in it directly, and may even condemn it. But, at the root of this is caste and brahmins cannot just wash their hands off.

BTW, IMO, asking Brahmins to stand up and take their share of responsibility, which is great indeed, is not brahmin bashing.


Brahmins were never holding the reigns of power. Period.
Well, Raju, even SV guruparampara stories show how powerful brahmins were in changing the entire social culture. Before turning to religion, Swami Alavandhar was a king. Koorathazvan was a rich landowner. Ramanuja made the rulers of Karnataka throw out Jains from their kingdom. Even as recently as 50 years ago the 43rd Jeeyar of Sri Ahobila Matam was a big landowner in Thanjavoor. These are just glimpses.

Cheers!
 
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We brahmins generally follow the laws.To give you a gist of hate speech law,aggreived parties should find our courts to deal with them.

India prohibits hate speech by several sections of the Indian Penal Code, the Code of Criminal Procedure, and by other laws which put limitations on the freedom of expression. Section 95 of the Code of Criminal Procedure gives the government the right to declare certain publications “forfeited” if the “publication ... appears to the State Government to contain any matter the publication of which is punishable under Section 124A or Section 153A or Section 153B or Section 292 or Section 293 or Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code”.
Section 153A of the penal code says, inter alia:
Whoever (a) by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise, promotes or attempts to promote, on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever, disharmony or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill-will between different religious, racial, language or regional groups or castes or communities, or (b) commits any act which is prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony between different religious, racial, language or regional groups or castes or communities, and which disturbs or is likely to disturb the public tranquility, . . . shall be punished with imprisonment which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both.
Enacted in 1927, section 295A says:

Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feelings of any class of [citizens of India], [by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise], insults or attempts to insult the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to [three years], or with fine, or with both.

nachi naga.
 
//The only resistance I have had here is push back from Brahmins, who, after creating this monster, protecting and defending it with their religious texts, routinely benefiting from it both socially and economically, now refuses to take any responsibility at all for the actions of this monster. Who indeed is a hypocrite?//

Brahmins did not create this monster. A benign unique classification tool was converted into an instrument of suppression and discrimination by the powerful communities other than brahmins. So Brahmins need not own this monster as their creation and feel ashamed.

Brahmins did not protect or defend this monster called obscrurantism/casteism. Wherever they have mentioned any thing supportive of castes it is all about the benign beneficial caste system which was originally conceived and not the hijacked and mutated one that we have today.The mutation occurred because of other castes perceived an advantage there.

Socially and economically benefiting? I do not understand how?

For the above reasons brahmins do not feel guilty about this monster, nor do they cry mia culpa and seek apology.They also know pretty well that even if they ,for the sake of peace and amicability accept the false claims and accept responsibility and seek pardon, it will not be granted, and that the monster will not disappear because there are powerful interests at play in sustaining the monster.

There is absolutely no hypocracy on the part of brahmins. They speak what they believe without any fear. They dont speak untruths to please the gallery.
 
....For the above reasons brahmins do not feel guilty about this monster, nor do they cry mia culpa and seek apology.

I know, most brahmins think they are a gift to humanity. But, thankfully, they are becoming increasingly irrelevant and that is a good thing.

Cheers!
 
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