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Do you agree with Mr Narayanmurthy on Brahminical Thinking being the problem???

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KRS,

Your post #44 is indeed a meaningful response. I liked it.

It seems our discussion is deviating out of the subject of the thread, though the point we are discussing is truly of interest to me, personally.

In this light, I will open a new thread and move that post 44 there. Thanks again for the time.
 
PS: I believe even Industrial revolution could be an act of God!!

Fantastic. On the same token, what prevents you from believing that the oppression could also be an act of God ???

I think we need an 'agreement' on what is the 'role' of 'God'. If everything is run as per the 'writ' of God then we are merely 'executing his will'. So even the oppression would become 'part of his will'.

So the 'theory of guilt and atonement' that you propose should possibly be communicated to God for his action.


Let me put it this way...

Inspite of all the atrocities done by Christian west, still they are flourishing. And they continued to flourish through Industrial revolution, and it looks like 'karmic debts' or repayment of bad deeds seems to have no effect on them.Germany is still flourishing inspite of draining the blood of 6Mn Jews.Both the Spaniards and Spanish seems to enjoy the best of life, inspite of Spanish Inquisition..

So my question is.. Whats the role of God and Karma here?

After you have said what you have said, i dont think Karmic debts really do matter.

The only explanation that i can think of now, is that perhaps Germany has a hotline with Him.

I think you have to first come clear on :

a) Whether we are merely executing His will or we are acting on our own using or not using the conscience that He has given us ?

b) If it is the former then your 'theory of guilt' goes out of the window.

c) If it is the latter then we do have a debate on our hands.

please specify.
 
>>>Fantastic. On the same token, what prevents you from believing that the oppression could also be an act of God ???.I think we need an 'agreement' on what is the 'role' of 'God'. If everything is run as per the 'writ' of God then we are merely 'executing his will'. So even the oppression would become 'part of his will'. >>>


Hariharan, you have a logical point.. Lets see what KRS and other fellow posters say about this.

>>>a) Whether we are merely executing His will or we are acting on our own using or not using the conscience that He has given us ?

b) If it is the former then your 'theory of guilt' goes out of the window.

c) If it is the latter then we do have a debate on our hands.>>>


True..If we are merely executing HIS will (like a puppet show), then I agree with you, that there is no need for feeling guilt/wrong.

But then, a murderer/rapist/Hitler were all equally right in their part of enacting HIS role play.. If everything is a role play of HIM, then there is no bad/good karma. And even there is no role for conscience too.Infact, every thing should be 'good karma', cos we are just obedient role players..

Above all, I feel, this view of role-play, doesnt thrust any 'Purpose in human Life'..


.

PS: I would request KRS to throw some light on the 2 previous posts. Thanks in advance
 
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I have been reading with much interest of the dialog between Sri Hari and sapr333.

Nations do have collective Karmas, as evidenced by the existence of mundane astrology with the future predictions for each nation. I think the Karma Phala materializes over decades/centuries with respect to the nation states.

India was the most affluent country in the world till the 18th century. Most of the western 'christian countries' developed financially at the time of the Industrial Revolution by benefiting from their colonies.

So, I sincerely believe that those 'affluent' countries will face the 'music' sooner or later. To make judgements about the wealth of nations on the karmic theory in terms of a few years makes no sense.

Regards,
KRS
 
Nations do have collective Karmas, as evidenced by the existence of mundane astrology with the future predictions for each nation. I think the Karma Phala materializes over decades/centuries with respect to the nation states.
KRS

In another thread, Mr.Nacchinarkiniyan rejected the existence of 'Collective Karma". Lets wait for his counter view also ..

KRS, in the mean time, whats your take on 'Role Play of HIM", as mentioned by Hariharan in the recent past post
 
I have made my views about this topic known in my earlier posts (Posts #37 and #39). No response to these. I must be out of touch.

I have no intention of posting in this thread again.

Thank you.
 
My response in RED

Sapr,

My whole ramble was meant for you - because you seem keen for something called affirmative action and apology - from one section of people called brahmins.

I will reply to your response, but i just have this to ask of you:

So far there has been violence against dalits and brahmins, but has tehre ever been violence against the OBCs?

As far as i know, there has not been any violence against OBCs. Please let me know why this largest section has been spared of such things?

Regards.
 
HH,

I do not think you will get an answer to your question. Tamil Nadu is one of the states with maximum atrocities being committed against Dalits. The infamous twotumbler system. Constructing a wall to prevent Dalits from entering the village. Preventing Dalits from entering temples, taking part in temple festivals and also outright violence.

No Brahmin is involved in any of these acts. But then the Brahmins do not have muscle power. They are easy targets. Yesterday I saw a Tamil movie in which a Jameendar oppresses Dalits and kills them. The hero dies in the end and promises that thousands of such people will arise in future to fight oppression.

But the fact is that it is the successors to such Jameendars who are ruling Tamil Nadu now. We have had a Chief Minister who would not let a Dalit IAS officer even sit in front of him. All Dalit officials had to be standing. Then he is a hero to the Dalits. One of our early Dalit minister had the grace to accept that Brahmins had done no physical harm to the Dalits. She was sacked the next day. Sad but true.

As I said earlier the Brahmins can only watch the developments from the side lines.
 
Sapr,

My whole ramble was meant for you - because you seem keen for something called affirmative action and apology - from one section of people called brahmins.
Regards.

Where did I say this???

From the very beginning my point of view is this..

This caste issue has percolated deep down to all levels. There are instances where dalits are discriminating Tribals.. Kshatriya nairs are all out against sudra Thiyyas in Kerala. Majority of the caste killing/rape in AP is done by Reddys. The blood bath in Thamiraparani is by sudra Thevars.Discrimination in bureaucratic levels is yet another team. It goes on.. Every community had some role in discrimination,and this cancer has infested everwhere.. So we all , and every individual should take the onus.

Level of responsiblity differs..A dalit should drop down the axe. A thevar should drop the shot gun. A Reddy should stop the land grabbing. The list goes on from bottom to top. Let each one of us introspect themselves,what kind of roles they could play to stop this discrimination.

Did'nt I tell you before,that, even discrimination of Women has to be voiced out. And every MEN should voluntarily accept the mistakes of past, and work for the upliftment of women.

This is my clear cut view.

Once again, one may wash of the hands and say, look, neither me, nor my ancestors are involved in this discrimination, so why should I bother? But the point is, a good samaritan, should not remain a mute spectator to a crime.


PS: Discrimination could be both tangible and intangible
 
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HH,

11>>We have had a Chief Minister who would not let a Dalit IAS officer even sit in front of him. All Dalit officials had to be standing. Then he is a hero to the Dalits.

22>>As I said earlier the Brahmins can only watch the developments from the side lines.


1) Yes, these kind of incidences is quite common among, which always make me wonder!!! for, eg, while in engg college hostel, there always used to be fight amongst students in the name of Kshatriya/Sudra/Untouchable. I mean literal fights, wielding sticks and choppers, and it was a never ending show. But interestingly one fine day, all these 3 teams made a compromise and pact for a common goal ie, to defeat a Brahmin candidate in the chairman election, and they accomplished the goal too.. Pity the situation is, I also couldnt figure out fully the complexity/phsychology of this issue

2) One simple point to say.. One should not be a mute spectator to any crime. Just a statement from top religious leaders/swamigal would add lot of value to correct this crime. You dont need muscle power. Matter of fact, social issues are not corrected by muscle powers.


PS: Just for my knowledge sake... Who is that Chief Minister?
 
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Sapr,


Where did I say this???

Am sorry it seemed to me that you were holding brahmins responsible for lack of affirmative action or were expecting an apology..i suppose i have understood your words wrongly...i hope to stand cleared.

From the very beginning my point of view is this..

This caste issue has percolated deep down to all levels. There are instances where dalits are discriminating Tribals.. Kshatriya nairs are all out against sudra Thiyyas in Kerala. Majority of the caste killing/rape in AP is done by Reddys. The blood bath in Thamiraparani is by sudra Thevars.Discrimination in bureaucratic levels is yet another team. It goes on.. Every community had some role in discrimination,and this cancer has infested everwhere.. So we all , and every individual should take the onus.

Agree with you. But how are you going to create awareness among dalits not to discriminate against tribals. And how are you going to get those nairs, reddys, thevars to not see tribals as inferior people ?

There are nairs, reddys and thevars i know who are easy going people not inclined to discriminate against anyone; nobody is interested in knowing the caste of his collegue or friend or anyone.

So you wud need to target the specific individuals that are going around with their caste on their sleeve as some sort of a designation to indulge in land-grabbing, discrimination, etc. And do these things happen in educated sections?

Level of responsiblity differs..A dalit should drop down the axe. A thevar should drop the shot gun. A Reddy should stop the land grabbing. The list goes on from bottom to top. Let each one of us introspect themselves,what kind of roles they could play to stop this discrimination.

Its easier said than done. The keys are awareness and social education. But is each one willing to play a role?

Most ppl just wanna be bindaas in life these days, how to ask them to be bothered about caste based issues happening somewhere in some village or interior place...

Did'nt I tell you before,that, even discrimination of Women has to be voiced out. And every MEN should voluntarily accept the mistakes of past, and work for the upliftment of women.

Who are the men that must voluntarily accept mistakes? Within one family, you can find men that are wonderful souls and men that do not have good attitude towards women. So, what can one do about it?

This is my clear cut view.

Once again, one may wash of the hands and say, look, neither me, nor my ancestors are involved in this discrimination, so why should I bother? But the point is, a good samaritan, should not remain a mute spectator to a crime.

I accept the point of being a good samaritan instead of being a mute spectator. But if someone is not interested in playing that role of a good samaritan, he does not automatically become a bad individual.

If someome wants to do something, then it is his own free will, he is not doing a so-called good thing because of any "guilt" or 'discrimiation'.

And again, whose ancestors were involved in discrimination? How many muslims today know the names of their ancestors beyond 7 generations? If you are going to ask them to feel "guilt", they are obviously going to wonder if their ancestors did any of those things at all...

and its certainly not possible that the ancestors of all muslims did those blood-bath or horrible things - so how can you hold all individuals responsible for something based on their community?

Instead, as said before, its each individual's free will if he wishes to do something, its all his wish....


PS: Discrimination could be both tangible and intangible
 
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Fighting college elections is an art. I know one of my close relatives who won the college election in Tamil Nadu for a number of years. In this college it was an issue of South vs the rest. The students from the southern districts voted him to power. In fact in that college the students from the southern districts were feared by others and they stuck together.

Religious leaders especially the ones whom you mean have very little following among the other castes. Tamil Nadu is very peculiar in that the village Gods/Goddesses dominate the scene. The Swamijis do not accept Masani Amman, Ayyanar, Karuppanna Swamy (one of my favorite Gods. My Guru was his devotee) and practices like sacrificing a goat.

Individual Brahmins are always interested and are involved. But even here we have to remember that one of the reasons for the Anti-Brahmin movement was the feeling that the Brahmins were inciting the Dalits against the oppressing classes/castes. There was a time when Brahmins mediated in caste disputes. But then the time and people have changed.
 

>>> And do these things happen in educated sections?>>>Most ppl just wanna be bindaas in life these days, how to ask them to be bothered about caste based issues happening>>>Who are the men that must voluntarily accept mistakes?>>

Discrimination is there in all walks of society. Some one shows it through land grabbing & two tumbler, and some shows it even in the dining table. Talk to any senior IAS officers, they too have their own story.

Few weeks ago, my drainage got blocked, and called for a scavenger. He came drunk, and I offered him a cup of chilled Coke . As a price negotiating technique, I put the hands on his shoulder to sooth him to bargain a better price(negotiating skill ). But while cleaning he damaged the tub tiles.Got angry, didnt show any expressions but uttered 'a racist slang in my heart (not in my tongue), citing his lack of intelligence due to his caste'.

He was happy that I offered him a Coke and put my arms around his shoulder. But deep within me, I know I did a great mistake..This is also a kind of discrimination I did, in my mind. I sought an apology alteast in my heart, cos I have a deep conviction about my evil thoughts(not even action).

In the corporate world, I have seen a veg & non-veg divide in the dining tables. Technically there is noting wrong... as we can say, I dont like the smell, so Im distancing it.. But, when we look this through humanity, with the perspective of solving this issue,each one should do some give & take..



Now the question is who should take the responsiblity? My answer is every individual, rather every humant being in this planet should come up to voice against the attrocities happening again any man-kind..It doesnt call for any Nationality/Language/Caste/Sex/Race etc.. Its all about convictions on 'dignity and value for human life". If genocides are happening in Rwanda/Sierra Leone/East Timor/Srilanka/Thamiraparani etc etc, we all should voice it out and act on it, within our capacities.


>>> certainly not possible that the ancestors of all muslims did those blood-bath or horrible things - so how can you hold all individuals responsible for something based on their community?>>

The key point is, this responsiblity (not accountablity) should develop within their hearts, esp, when one proudly represents a community.When it doesnt deveolop within, then accountablity comes forcibly,and thats what happened with reservation/Babri Masjid demolition. As a community, had moslems had that conviction, Im sure they would have volutarily offered back 'Ram Janma Bhoomi. Had Indian worked with the kind of Affirmative Actions, reservation wouldnt have been forced in to the throats.Lets not forget, Hitlers swastika is banned in Germany, inspite it being the oldest popular symbol. Reason... No hollywood movie, goes without a black. These are voluantary acts..

Now, how to bring awareness?? Though Literacy helps to some extend, this moral issue can be effectively tackled by sprituality with the theme of "Value for human life and dignity". Im sure, most of the religions carry this theme.In my view,spiritual leaders have a larger role to play here.
 
sapr333,

I have already told you about the concept of God in Hinduism.

What Sri Hari is asking you is your position on the concept of God.

To me, the concept of God is 'monism' and 'advaitham', because those are the philosophies I grew up with and I find solace and solution with such concepts.

You on the other hand, it seems to me, was brought up with monotheistic principles of a 'moral' God. What Sri Hari is asking is for you to say whether this is your concept of God.

This God business is based on faith. So one can only agree to disagree when it comes to the different concepts of God amongst various religions.

Hope this answers.

Regards,
KRS


PS: I would request KRS to throw some light on the 2 previous posts. Thanks in advance
 
sapr333,

You on the other hand, it seems to me, was brought up with monotheistic principles of a 'moral' God. What Sri Hari is asking is for you to say whether this is your concept of God.

This God business is based on faith. So one can only agree to disagree when it comes to the different concepts of God amongst various religions.
Regards,
KRS

KRS,

I really dont have any particular stand on the concept of God.. Im on the job of exploring/evaluating all the concepts and find out the 'True Concept of God'..rather, 'Ultimate Truth about God'

Again, I also dont wish to choose GOD, purely based on 'Blind faith".. Looking for some reasoning too.
 
Okay, sapr333, then let me put forward the logic from where I sit.

The most 'logical' deductions about God have come to us not from the 'intellectual' side, but rather from the 'mystical' side of all religions. It is remarkable how this side of all religions agree on the nature of God. God to them is an all loving, all pervasive power, not infused with any human qualities.

So, it seems to me then, 'monism' is probably the best way to describe God. Because I believe that the absolute morality of this world is dependent on the svadharma that God has given us all. He also has created the good and evil. I do not believe in a Satan as the embodiment of evil. Evil and sin arise out of ignorance not out of any inherent badness of all human beings.

Regards,
KRS


KRS,

I really dont have any particular stand on the concept of God.. Im on the job of exploring/evaluating all the concepts and find out the 'True Concept of God'..rather, 'Ultimate Truth about God'

Again, I also dont wish to choose GOD, purely based on 'Blind faith".. Looking for some reasoning too.
 
Sapr,

Discrimination is there in all walks of society....

Perhaps am living in a diff society or what i dunno...Am able to understand discrimination yes, but as a competition, as a fight for limited resources, as a rat-race, where caste gets used / abused by the section of the society.

All educated people need not be broad-minded, neither are such things dependent on age - my grandmum is more accepting of changes than my mum.


Few weeks ago, my drainage got blocked...solving this issue,each one should do some give & take..

Am just sharing something, not related to the post above. We are middle-class people, but my husband, as a principle, does not beleive in bargaining with scavengers who clean septic tanks, repair drains, etc, and in our younger days neither has he ever hagled with rickshawallas that help negotiate narrow-lanes, or people doing manual jobs. According to him, some jobs just need to be paid more than they get. My father follows the same principle. Not only those two men, there are others who follow this..It sorta surprises me that caste can be considered an identifier for IQ..

I do not think veg - nonveg dining can ever be called seperation - it really is a personal choice.

I used to consume red-meat, my mother was so aghast that when i had certain stomach troubles, instead of helping me out with treatment possibilities, she said i deserved my sickness and sought pariharams instead - the lady is from a family that is habituated to doing go-pooja atleast once a year, and a section of my relatives, all those golla type ppl
made a fuss and considered my 'sin' unforgivable.

Anyways the whole thing affected me much and i do not touch red-meat or a hamburger anymore, and hardly consume non-veg now, something that is restricted to outside home anyways. So lets say someone does consume non-veg but does not touch beef or pork, is that discriminatory too...i don't ever think so, wud find it amusing if someone were to think that way actually...choices really cannot be homogenized.



... Its all about convictions on 'dignity and value for human life". ..within our capacities.

Its each one's personal choice, whether they want to take responsibility or not. Awareness is already around. But what can you do if someone does not want to listen...


The key point is, this responsiblity (not accountablity)......spiritual leaders have a larger role to play here.

I do not think ram janma bhoomi wud have been offered back on a platter...its an entirely diff issue.

The genesis of reservations is something nobody wants to visit.

I do not know how much of a role spiritual leaders can play, esp in the face of politicians. There are many who are already doing their part, and do make the diff.

At the personal level, tehre are also ppl who prefer a more broad based scenario. The most stinging words i got to hear was from my spouse recently who did not beleive in pooling resources or networking ppl based on caste - according to him i am a selfish individual (and etc, etc) that wants ppl to prosper based on caste (and not on humanitarian grounds...). He is the sort that puts aside a part for orphanages more than he does for any temple.
So you have all kinds of people with all kinds of attitudes. Whatever ppl decide, it has already been decided by God. Not sure you want to judge anything. A man can merely be an instrument for that master-planner somewhere out there....again, choices really cannot be homogenized.
 
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God is someone who is living within us and outside of us.One needs special skills to acknowledge god=nirgunam brahman.

sb
 
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