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Do not follow any philosophy - what is Surrender to God?
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Vaagmi
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wow .. lots of messages in this thread - only one is a rational response in my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) and that is of Respected Mr Iyer's response. Others are just articulating their pet beliefs with justification .. Without intent to annoy anyone let me point out in some of the posts which says their own beliefs , other posts are straying from the original topic
Thank you Mr Iyyarooraan... The bold part is a belief
Also no one knows how universe got started exactly. That unknown is explained by another unknown called God (humans do not agree what this God is) No one will want to disprove a thesis, the thesis has to be proved by the one that puts that forward
Temporarily giving in to a situation because of no other option (taking a fight, submit to a dentist) is not the same as surrendering to an unknown entity called God. Original question was - why surrender in the first place. Mr Iyer has provided a reasonable explanation.
Respected Iyer Sir,
Paraphrasing using my words of your thoughts:
So people surrender when they are in trouble (it is like a therapy)
Regular people pray (not over confuse with words like surrendering) because it is learned as a ritual to deal with unknowns in our life (as in the serenity prayer)
Thank you
We dont know what this God is.. The bold part is your belief, which is fine but it is not anything born out of reason
Mr Krish44 - This post is a distraction , can annoy believers IMHO (in my humble opinion) and does not add to the topic area.
Everything we do is a ritual of some sort. Even drinking alcohol, wine tasting methods and clicking glasses are learned rituals (all of which you are very familiar with based on your past posts) . They are all learned rituals. No need to pick rituals of worship alone.
Wanted to know why human beings have the need to surrender (since God would not have created creatures so they surrender to HIM/HER/IT). Respected Iyer has put forth an explanation.
We have one proclaimed surrendered who has not explained yet his reasons here - perhaps it was just a ritual he was engaged in and nothing more LOL
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
Active member
(Originally Posted by krish44 )
"Prostration before God/Goddesses is educated discipline? What crap."
As a schoolboy fascinated with the beauty of English poetry, I came across this:-
"The man that hath no music in himself
And is not moved by concord of sweet sounds
Is fit for treasons, strategems and spoils."
So with those who fling the word "crap" (a sweet short sound like "fart" and equally indicative of the true worth of the individual) at matters they are unable to understand, much less accept.
A helpless (hapless?) disability (one may even call it a psychological disorder) to appreciate music, beauty, life, trust, faith, loyalty, goodness, humanity, culture, love, to comprehend the concept of God, the reality of God, the greatness of the minds that composed our Vedams, our scriptures, our songs, our music, our dances, our dramas in praise of God, our acts of worship, our acts of pious greetings before our revered elders not only indicates, but proves the base animal in man.
(Proves the truth behind the sabre-rattling cowardice: "This animal is dangerous: When attacked, it defends itself.")
With the highest possible respect to the individuals concerned, let me say that it not only indicates, but proves that an uneducated individual in human form, an undisciplined rebel without a cause who can only seek relief from his frustration with life around him, merely kicks against the goad that hurts him more with every kick.
Sure, I have listened with full attention and at length to the lectures and proclamations of such eminent professed atheists as Richard Dawkins, e.g. in debates with Cardinal George Pell, Archbishop of Sydney, and others. And to other godless "thinkers" whose rationalistic ranting is still unable to come to grips with the reality of God, with the wonder of miracles (too many in my own life and the lives of those around me to recount), with the mutual interaction of God with men and women of this world.
Sure, I have also listened with rapt attention to the impassioned outpourings of such great orators as Owaisi and Zakir Naik. Have read the encyclicles of the Popes.
When it comes go the crucial test of bhakthi, all these folk, whether made from the slime of the Earth (Jewish/Christian Adam), clots of blood (Koran), interaction between sky and earth during the Dream-Time (Australian aborigines) totally fail. We are back to what English author Joseph Conrad discovered when he travelled to the Heart of Darkness: Nothing.
This Nothing, I fear, is what those who wear "crap" as their proud badge come to as a result of their decrying and dismissing God as an essential element in their present Earthly lives (and earlier and later lives).
They are, nevertheless, interesting as a peculiar species, relieving with amusement the tedium of our lives. For this, much thanks.
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
"Prostration before God/Goddesses is educated discipline? What crap."
As a schoolboy fascinated with the beauty of English poetry, I came across this:-
"The man that hath no music in himself
And is not moved by concord of sweet sounds
Is fit for treasons, strategems and spoils."
So with those who fling the word "crap" (a sweet short sound like "fart" and equally indicative of the true worth of the individual) at matters they are unable to understand, much less accept.
A helpless (hapless?) disability (one may even call it a psychological disorder) to appreciate music, beauty, life, trust, faith, loyalty, goodness, humanity, culture, love, to comprehend the concept of God, the reality of God, the greatness of the minds that composed our Vedams, our scriptures, our songs, our music, our dances, our dramas in praise of God, our acts of worship, our acts of pious greetings before our revered elders not only indicates, but proves the base animal in man.
(Proves the truth behind the sabre-rattling cowardice: "This animal is dangerous: When attacked, it defends itself.")
With the highest possible respect to the individuals concerned, let me say that it not only indicates, but proves that an uneducated individual in human form, an undisciplined rebel without a cause who can only seek relief from his frustration with life around him, merely kicks against the goad that hurts him more with every kick.
Sure, I have listened with full attention and at length to the lectures and proclamations of such eminent professed atheists as Richard Dawkins, e.g. in debates with Cardinal George Pell, Archbishop of Sydney, and others. And to other godless "thinkers" whose rationalistic ranting is still unable to come to grips with the reality of God, with the wonder of miracles (too many in my own life and the lives of those around me to recount), with the mutual interaction of God with men and women of this world.
Sure, I have also listened with rapt attention to the impassioned outpourings of such great orators as Owaisi and Zakir Naik. Have read the encyclicles of the Popes.
When it comes go the crucial test of bhakthi, all these folk, whether made from the slime of the Earth (Jewish/Christian Adam), clots of blood (Koran), interaction between sky and earth during the Dream-Time (Australian aborigines) totally fail. We are back to what English author Joseph Conrad discovered when he travelled to the Heart of Darkness: Nothing.
This Nothing, I fear, is what those who wear "crap" as their proud badge come to as a result of their decrying and dismissing God as an essential element in their present Earthly lives (and earlier and later lives).
They are, nevertheless, interesting as a peculiar species, relieving with amusement the tedium of our lives. For this, much thanks.
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
I keep wondering who constitute peculiar species, those bare bodied prostrating or those dismissing it .
To each his own belief, it is still a free country.
As long as nobody trips over someone prostrating it is fine.
I have watched with interest the boasts of much senior citizen.
All this has not seems to have made any worthwhile impact either on him or those around him
Humankind can put up with a lot .
We brahmins are known for our tolerance.
Anyone can freak out with gay abandon.
To each his own belief, it is still a free country.
As long as nobody trips over someone prostrating it is fine.
I have watched with interest the boasts of much senior citizen.
All this has not seems to have made any worthwhile impact either on him or those around him
Humankind can put up with a lot .
We brahmins are known for our tolerance.
Anyone can freak out with gay abandon.
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IMHO, abjectly surrendering to anyone or anything is an act of the weak .Weak in mind , weak in physical strength.
It would not be reasonable to ask the weak why they are that way.
They would only have a long winded explanation without being honest to justify .
There is nothing learned about this.
Prostrating and claiming surrender to Gods is just a ritual handed down to many by their forefathers.
Many revenue officers in villages taking bribe after being busy with the rituals home is common.
Lawyers misrepresent and defend the shady after a bout of prostration and surrender to God home.
Baniyas always burn dhoop before pictures of god and worship wit handsfolded and they black market to optimise profits.
So nothing holy about someone practising a ritual.
Probably it helps overcome a guilty conscience for deeds they are committing on a daily basis
Many revenue officers in villages taking bribe after being busy with the rituals home is common.
Lawyers misrepresent and defend the shady after a bout of prostration and surrender to God home.
Baniyas always burn dhoop before pictures of god and worship wit handsfolded and they black market to optimise profits.
So nothing holy about someone practising a ritual.
Probably it helps overcome a guilty conscience for deeds they are committing on a daily basis
renuka
Well-known member
True...even Mafia Dons..criminals too perform rituals and prostrate in front of God.
Anyway at an older age prostrating might be good for the Prostate gland!LOL
Raji Ram
Active member
Not at all weird! :nono:
Prostrating before Amma / Chinnamma by the politicians IS weird!
They keep prostrating - only the legs in front of them change now and then!
Chitrai festival kicking off with Azhagar entering the waters in madurai seems to attract lakhs of devotees.JJ ji must be busy there.
There was one more of varadaraja perumal being taken in procession another town of tamilnadu.
Religious following among the population is only increasing.
Is it a sign of prosperity or is it hope for prosperity?
Common people can always be distracted thru such events .
There are hardly bothered by GDP figures or who rules
There was one more of varadaraja perumal being taken in procession another town of tamilnadu.
Religious following among the population is only increasing.
Is it a sign of prosperity or is it hope for prosperity?
Common people can always be distracted thru such events .
There are hardly bothered by GDP figures or who rules
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S Narayanaswamy Iyer
Active member
"Anyone can freak out with gay abandon." -- Krish44 Veteran.
That precisely is what gays do. Gays who do not believe in God or know what His/Her goodness is, "aggregate with their approximations". Like (one-eyed?) crows who wonder how peacocks can possibly exist. Or dance.
Like gays, atheists freak out only with atheists. Are comfortable only with fellow-atheists. Born partly-blind, they can recognise only brother- and sister-atheists. Roadkill (knocking on the head all those who pray, kneel or prostrate to God) is their life-sustaining food.
"We brahmins are known for our tolerance." -- Krtish44, Veteran.
An astonishing (last-ditch?) claim by a lapsed brahmin (by a Braahmana-Bandhu, as a learned horoscopist has explained elsewhere in this forum). Forked-tongued in a way, too (Sir, I pray to ALL the navagrahams including Raahu and Ketu).
This affected "tolerance" does not extend to fellow-Brahmins, especially his seniors.
When an unjust order starts crumbling, the adherants to that order cling to each other to destroy the intruder and to continue their merry ways. -- Krish44, Veteran.
When an "unjust order" or regime starts crumbling, like the former imperial British Raj, the British failed to destroy the Japanese Dai Nippon Imperial intruder, even by sending their newly-built powerful "unsinkable" battleships HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse. The Japanese successors proved to be even more oppressive than the British.
But at least they got rid of the Chinese triad societies of murderers and plunderers embedded deeply in the society. They displayed on sharpened wooden stakes in public places the heads of beheaded goons. They placed placards prominently nearby warning that similar fate awaited criminals and opposers of the New Order.
The Americans dropped atomic bombs (the "dirty" early versions) on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The post-war British returned and tried to resume their rule. The native Muslims revolted and took over political power. English was abolished: the insufficiently-developed native tongue took over. Newly-sprung-up political parties of "sons of the soil" competed as to who would impose more and more Sharia law, and be known as "more Islamic". The result (for non-Muslims)?
Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist temples, more than a hundred years old, were gleefully torn down to make way for modern settlements for sons of the soil. Tens of thousands of new mosques sprung up, funded by public money. Including grandiose "National" mosques in every capital city. Hundreds of thousands of madrassahs sprung up to brainwash four- to eight-year-olds, males and females, to learn the Koran, Muslim principles, Muslim practices, to hate non-Muslims, to destroy their places of worship, to try to convert everyone to Islam.
A new and powerful Sharia Court was set up, to administer Sharia law in parallel with the civil courts administering civil law. If they clashed, the Sharia law prevailed. Non-Muslims had no access to the Sharia courts. So if a Hindu father suddenly decided ton convert to Islam, kidnapped all the under-aged children, secreted therm away and converted them into Muslims, the Hindu or Buddhist mother had no remedy. No remedy again to the surviving family members if some Muslims claimed that a Hindu father or mother had on his/her death-bed in a Government hospital converted to Islam and was buried in a Muslim cemetery.
The New Order was and is far, far, more unjust and oppressive even than the former British Raj. Even than the Japanese beheaders.
In my observation the New Order in what is left of India after Partition gives more real rights to Muslims and to Christians than it does to Hindus. (One point: it robs ancient Hindu temples of their wealth accumulated over centuries, and finances Muslims going on Haj to oil-rich Saudi Arabia. Why can't the Saudis finance Haj-goers?) Its main achievement is creation of Dalits (with their creamy layer elites) as the New Age Brahmins, and encouragement of mono-ocular radicals and pseudos who claim to be Brahmins but attack everything Brahminical.
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
That precisely is what gays do. Gays who do not believe in God or know what His/Her goodness is, "aggregate with their approximations". Like (one-eyed?) crows who wonder how peacocks can possibly exist. Or dance.
Like gays, atheists freak out only with atheists. Are comfortable only with fellow-atheists. Born partly-blind, they can recognise only brother- and sister-atheists. Roadkill (knocking on the head all those who pray, kneel or prostrate to God) is their life-sustaining food.
"We brahmins are known for our tolerance." -- Krtish44, Veteran.
An astonishing (last-ditch?) claim by a lapsed brahmin (by a Braahmana-Bandhu, as a learned horoscopist has explained elsewhere in this forum). Forked-tongued in a way, too (Sir, I pray to ALL the navagrahams including Raahu and Ketu).
This affected "tolerance" does not extend to fellow-Brahmins, especially his seniors.
When an unjust order starts crumbling, the adherants to that order cling to each other to destroy the intruder and to continue their merry ways. -- Krish44, Veteran.
When an "unjust order" or regime starts crumbling, like the former imperial British Raj, the British failed to destroy the Japanese Dai Nippon Imperial intruder, even by sending their newly-built powerful "unsinkable" battleships HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse. The Japanese successors proved to be even more oppressive than the British.
But at least they got rid of the Chinese triad societies of murderers and plunderers embedded deeply in the society. They displayed on sharpened wooden stakes in public places the heads of beheaded goons. They placed placards prominently nearby warning that similar fate awaited criminals and opposers of the New Order.
The Americans dropped atomic bombs (the "dirty" early versions) on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The post-war British returned and tried to resume their rule. The native Muslims revolted and took over political power. English was abolished: the insufficiently-developed native tongue took over. Newly-sprung-up political parties of "sons of the soil" competed as to who would impose more and more Sharia law, and be known as "more Islamic". The result (for non-Muslims)?
Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist temples, more than a hundred years old, were gleefully torn down to make way for modern settlements for sons of the soil. Tens of thousands of new mosques sprung up, funded by public money. Including grandiose "National" mosques in every capital city. Hundreds of thousands of madrassahs sprung up to brainwash four- to eight-year-olds, males and females, to learn the Koran, Muslim principles, Muslim practices, to hate non-Muslims, to destroy their places of worship, to try to convert everyone to Islam.
A new and powerful Sharia Court was set up, to administer Sharia law in parallel with the civil courts administering civil law. If they clashed, the Sharia law prevailed. Non-Muslims had no access to the Sharia courts. So if a Hindu father suddenly decided ton convert to Islam, kidnapped all the under-aged children, secreted therm away and converted them into Muslims, the Hindu or Buddhist mother had no remedy. No remedy again to the surviving family members if some Muslims claimed that a Hindu father or mother had on his/her death-bed in a Government hospital converted to Islam and was buried in a Muslim cemetery.
The New Order was and is far, far, more unjust and oppressive even than the former British Raj. Even than the Japanese beheaders.
In my observation the New Order in what is left of India after Partition gives more real rights to Muslims and to Christians than it does to Hindus. (One point: it robs ancient Hindu temples of their wealth accumulated over centuries, and finances Muslims going on Haj to oil-rich Saudi Arabia. Why can't the Saudis finance Haj-goers?) Its main achievement is creation of Dalits (with their creamy layer elites) as the New Age Brahmins, and encouragement of mono-ocular radicals and pseudos who claim to be Brahmins but attack everything Brahminical.
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
prasad1
Active member
The argument that Haj payments were made purely for vote bank politics, and it may have been true.
Why a BJP Supermajority government still follows that practice is beyond any reason.
The same people who deride the previous government are now wringing their hands. Why?
Then again this thread is being hijacked. :focus:
We have discussed this topic of preferential treatments for minorities has been discussed multiple times.
So is the topic of quota for SC etc.
Gay (or carefree ) was the meaning and not Gay (homosexual).
A word out of context can be misleading.
Why a BJP Supermajority government still follows that practice is beyond any reason.
The same people who deride the previous government are now wringing their hands. Why?
Then again this thread is being hijacked. :focus:
We have discussed this topic of preferential treatments for minorities has been discussed multiple times.
So is the topic of quota for SC etc.
Gay (or carefree ) was the meaning and not Gay (homosexual).
A word out of context can be misleading.
Janaki Jambunathan
Active member
Chithra pournami is important to gays transgenders as well You cannot wish away the festival - at koothandar temple
Alagar enters Vaigai and also in Manamadurai Paramkudi
Everywhere people participate in lakhs
But சித்தரை முழு நிலவு நாள் Government function People have no interest !
Alagar entered Madurai at 4AM மூன்று மாவடி - I live close by -அழகர் வராரு was blaring from 3AM I thought about Sonu Nigam
Alagar did bring rains for 20 minutes in the evening!
To day morning he entered Vaigai dreesed in green and people link prosperity with this color A huge barechested having his caste mark on his chest suddenly plunged in front of Alagar moving fast on wheels to prostrate -. சாஷ்டாங்கம் Few tripped over him Luckily Alagar cart was stopped one security man pulled him by his kudimi from ground and he escaped with minor injurys
Alagar enters Vaigai and also in Manamadurai Paramkudi
Everywhere people participate in lakhs
But சித்தரை முழு நிலவு நாள் Government function People have no interest !
Alagar entered Madurai at 4AM மூன்று மாவடி - I live close by -அழகர் வராரு was blaring from 3AM I thought about Sonu Nigam
Alagar did bring rains for 20 minutes in the evening!
To day morning he entered Vaigai dreesed in green and people link prosperity with this color A huge barechested having his caste mark on his chest suddenly plunged in front of Alagar moving fast on wheels to prostrate -. சாஷ்டாங்கம் Few tripped over him Luckily Alagar cart was stopped one security man pulled him by his kudimi from ground and he escaped with minor injurys
There are few cowards and weak minded who are passive aggressive and aggressive.
Such people do not stand for anything and surrendering is just ritual to them. They are fake fellows everywhere ( I can name one LOL)
But everyone is not like that. There are genuine people who pray to a deity because of collective value that is placed on what the deity stands for. Just like you 'worship' pieces of papers (until value is taken away collectively by demonetization). You are not worshiping the papers but affirm by your worship the value given by GOI to the paper
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
Active member
A few days ago I wrote in this thread:-
"Heavens are not going to come crashing down if one stops this practice of prostration before God or living beings which is worse of the two. -- Veteran Krish 44.
"Sir, why parrot the obvious? Was the late greatly-worshipped "Amma" Jayaram Jayalalitha told this, Sir? By you or your like-minded colleagues? When she was at the height of her power? Why not? She was an Iyengar, was she not?
"Will the Heavens fall ("come crashing down" in your language), if you attended your beloved next I/C I/R wedding in your swim-shorts Or wore collarless T-shirt and hot-pants to your next interview with your boss/investor/internatiional guest in his/her office? Kindly try, and report. Thanks."
Surprisingly, even notably, no response todate from our voluble condemnor of prostrations. Why? Tongue-tied when caught "with pants down" ?
Of late he proclaims:
We brahmins are known for our tolerance.
Let me assume that these words, taken at face value, mean he wants to re-integrate with mainstream Brahmin society. If so, can Sri Krish44 please answer these questions? Thanks.
(1) Was he ever formally invested with poonal and given Brahmopadesham during his upanayanam?
(2) If so, before biksha-yaachakam, did he recite abhivaadaye..... and do full shaashtaanga namaskara prostration on the floor before his mother?
(3) Does he know the meanings of the Sanskrit phrases "paramam pavithram" and ".....phalam asthu thejaha" chanted during yagnopaveetha-dhaaranam?
(4) If so, what are the meanings?
(5) Has he ever done any sandhya vandanams, e.g. in the days following his upanayanam?
(6) If so, has he performed any abhivaadanams followed by prostrations?
(7) Has he ever understood the meanings of the Sanskrit words "namah savithre......"?
(8) Has he ever understood the meanings of the Sanskrit words "govinda pundareekaaksha raksha-maam sharanaagatham"?
(9) Has he ever understood the meanings of the Sanskrit words "sarva deva namaskaarah shree keshavan prathigachchathi"?
Can we have non-equivocal answers, please. Many thanks.
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
"Heavens are not going to come crashing down if one stops this practice of prostration before God or living beings which is worse of the two. -- Veteran Krish 44.
"Sir, why parrot the obvious? Was the late greatly-worshipped "Amma" Jayaram Jayalalitha told this, Sir? By you or your like-minded colleagues? When she was at the height of her power? Why not? She was an Iyengar, was she not?
"Will the Heavens fall ("come crashing down" in your language), if you attended your beloved next I/C I/R wedding in your swim-shorts Or wore collarless T-shirt and hot-pants to your next interview with your boss/investor/internatiional guest in his/her office? Kindly try, and report. Thanks."
Surprisingly, even notably, no response todate from our voluble condemnor of prostrations. Why? Tongue-tied when caught "with pants down" ?
Of late he proclaims:
We brahmins are known for our tolerance.
Let me assume that these words, taken at face value, mean he wants to re-integrate with mainstream Brahmin society. If so, can Sri Krish44 please answer these questions? Thanks.
(1) Was he ever formally invested with poonal and given Brahmopadesham during his upanayanam?
(2) If so, before biksha-yaachakam, did he recite abhivaadaye..... and do full shaashtaanga namaskara prostration on the floor before his mother?
(3) Does he know the meanings of the Sanskrit phrases "paramam pavithram" and ".....phalam asthu thejaha" chanted during yagnopaveetha-dhaaranam?
(4) If so, what are the meanings?
(5) Has he ever done any sandhya vandanams, e.g. in the days following his upanayanam?
(6) If so, has he performed any abhivaadanams followed by prostrations?
(7) Has he ever understood the meanings of the Sanskrit words "namah savithre......"?
(8) Has he ever understood the meanings of the Sanskrit words "govinda pundareekaaksha raksha-maam sharanaagatham"?
(9) Has he ever understood the meanings of the Sanskrit words "sarva deva namaskaarah shree keshavan prathigachchathi"?
Can we have non-equivocal answers, please. Many thanks.
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
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