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Do not follow any philosophy - what is Surrender to God?

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advaita is more about realizing the transient nature of our relative existence. just as the sweetness of sugar is present in water, it is about "realizing" the essence of brahman throught our plane of existence... and hence, there is no procedure to do a "force surrender".

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In general, those who somehow believe in a god, also believe that bad effects could be removed / reduced by appeasing to the god. The bad effects could be anything from passing a medical entrance test, getting a progeny, finding a groom/bride to obtaining a US job (now Trump has come between them and God) to cancelling the subsequent lives that are supposed to be endured by the "athma". This appeasement is a prayer in some cases and surrender in others. At the very least, it helps them to know that there is someone out there who can manage things for him.


Auhji,
You have analyzed the problem.
I do have faith in Advaita. I do accept Brahman as the root. So I suppose I believe in God (Brahman). I do not believe in activist god anymore. I do not believe in that any external entity can manage or play favoritism with the karma phal.
Culturally I do visit temples and "go through" the motions of worship. But increasingly I feel I am deceiving myself.
 
When someone totally surrenders to a benevolent person, the former has complete faith in the latter and willing to be absolutely guided by him. Since God does not directly interact with you, a total surrender would mean one has to be righteous which is what God would tell you to do. God men emerged for being surrogate guides and teach you how to follow dharma.

So as many think surrendering to God does not mean one is fearful about something but seeking help for guiding his life.

Dear Mr Sravana:

Find it hard that people's beliefs would allow them to surrender to another human being . May be I do not trust godmen or prophets much
 
That is great. God wants every one to become one of his whole. And that job is not that easy.Philosophy or no philosophy, rites or no rites, prayer or no prayer, the path is one to reach the one. Maybe these things can prevent or delay a person from becoming depressed.

Dear Mr Iyyarooraan:

Thanks for sharing your beliefs. If He is whole , am I his part already or a part that has nothing to do with Him? In anycase why should he separate me in the first place and then want me to be his whole ..
 
"Why should a God, the almighty create all these beings and expect them to surrender to Him/Her/It?
What does a devotee surrender? Why does he surrender - because he is afraid? The whole 'philosophy' of total surrender does not make sense.
Somehow surrender is then a belief. Kind of anti-climax because every religion has their pet beliefs.

"My christian friend think that we are destined to go to hell if we do not believe in Jesus to get rid of some original sin.
There is also talk about ego, merging with god etc. So I am wondering if there are other reasons or beliefs.
Wonder what Mr Iyer thinks."

-- Sri a-TB


"So as many think surrendering to God does not mean one is fearful about something but seeking help for guiding his life."
-- Sri Srinivasan Vaidyaraman


My dear highly respected Sri a-TBNot being a "God man" (Sri Sravna's words) or even pretending to be one, may I, at your most kind invitation, say what I think?

The much-bruited-abroad word "surrender" has different meanings and shades of meaning for different people, depending perhaps on their perceptions of themselves and their God, on their levels of devotion and of sophistication, on their needs spiritual and material, even on their moods when using that word.

God the Creator does not expect anyone to surrender tn him or to anyone else. It is the surrenderor's decision.

First and foremost, surrendering to someone, a human, is totally different from surrendering direct to God Himself or Herself. Humans are fallible, even the Pope when pronouncing ex cathedra on faith and morals. Why else are there so many different mutually hostile and warring faiths, all claiming to teach and spread the Word of One Universal God? Even over-sensitive sub-sects of Hinduism claiming paramountcy? All led by humans but claiming to be messengers, prophets, even incarnations of God?

"Mea culpa, mea culpa," cries the devout Christian in the confessional, surrendering to the mercy of his God.

"Yeh Allah!," invokes the faithful Muslim, with tears in eyes, bowing his head till it touches the ground, surrendering to his chosen Almighty.

"Kaayena vaacha manasaa indriyairvaa budhyaa aathmanaava prakruthe svabhaavaath karomi yadyad sakalam parasmai sreeman naraayanaayethu samarppayaami," chants the Brahmin before prostrating full-length on the ground in front of his ishta-devathaa in total surrender.

The devotee is a devotee, I suppose, because he realises sooner or later in life that there is a Power greater than himself or his fellow-humans. He realises that he is weak and seeks the aid of this greater Power. His feelings of devotion deepen, his psyche expands to accept and to submit totally to this Power of his: he sublimates his own intellect, he suppresses his questioning, his rationalising, and his inquisitive human mind.

He surrenders. He unloads on to the Power all that troubles him.

It brings psychological catharsis, a feeling of relief, an emptying of the accumulated tension within himself. "No more my problem. The problem is yours," he rejoices. He is at peace. He does not maintain a one-man fight against the world anymore. He accepts all challenges with his head up, his chest out, for he knows that he has God on his side.

It is a precious personal triumph he has achieved -- opened up a direct communication channel to God. Any time. Anywhere. He is not cowed any more. He now has a solid anchor in stormy seas, a bright beacon in former mental darkness, a companion, a guide, a trusty confidant, a powerful protector.

Surrender is not a belief. It is a demonstrative act of one who has faith in a superior Power, in God.

Does "surrender" in the psychological sense, NOT the philosophical sense, make sense?

Thanks and regards,

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

Dear Respected Iyer Sir,

Thank you for sharing your views in a lucid manner.

You said "Does "surrender" in the psychological sense, NOT the philosophical sense, make sense?" - that makes sense to me definitely.

So surrender to God has therapeutic value for one who is in despair.

Not sure why people who are not in despair chase after surrender - perhaps angling to go to a place heaven?

Regards
 
Dear Sir,

1. Oh! Should think more about it.

2. Mine is a strong belief. :)

3. OMG! How can he say so to a-TB?? :shocked:

BTW, I think original sins (committed in the earlier birth) are punished in this life itself.

I have seen a few very good persons, who have prolonged suffering in their old age! :ballchain:

Dear Madam Raji Ram:

There is another christian friend told me that surrender is to understand the serenity prayer. Some thinking (first part) and some beliefs (second part) below in my opinion

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
forever in the next.
Amen.
 
The three main vedic philosophies, imo, have tried to reason out the cause for the various happenings around us. (Why did they do this? - separate topic, perhaps). But these theories did not satisfactorily answer the random happenings that happen to people. Good things happened to bad people (am speaking from a perspective); bad things happened to good people. Something seemed to be so wrong. So the arbitrary happenings were attributed to a baggage brought down from the previous births. It is similar to a running account (in finance) where the squaring up happens up only when the sum total of all transactions is zero. If we assume debit is papam and credit is punyam, life will continue until sum of debit and credit is zero. Else, it is carried forward. Only hitch is that such concepts cannot be verified in all cases.

Random mutations later - since nobody knows what karmaphala we are about to enjoy in this life (we are constantly creating new kaarmic energies, perhaps to be utilized in the lives after !), it was advised to appease all the relevant navagrahas (as they are the phala dispensers) that the bad effects may be nullified. (this is like bribing a honest official who is entrusted with carrying out a certain task).

Under vishishtadvaita, since all the navagrahas report to the CEO, reigning in vaikuntam, they are of the opinion that instead of appealing to the lower level denizens, it is better to plead a case before the final authority itself. Since he (the CEO) is the one who can, if he so chooses, erase all the karmaphalas with a single stroke of his pen and neutrilize and sterilize the running account. Please note that if a person places a case before the CEO, then he has to abide by all the rules and regulations required of him so that the CEO may look kindly upon him. Whether this brings humility, grace, patience and love to one and all is not within the ambit of this discussion.

advaita is more about realizing the transient nature of our relative existence. just as the sweetness of sugar is present in water, it is about "realizing" the essence of brahman throught our plane of existence... and hence, there is no procedure to do a "force surrender".

------------

In general, those who somehow believe in a god, also believe that bad effects could be removed / reduced by appeasing to the god. The bad effects could be anything from passing a medical entrance test, getting a progeny, finding a groom/bride to obtaining a US job (now Trump has come between them and God) to cancelling the subsequent lives that are supposed to be endured by the "athma". This appeasement is a prayer in some cases and surrender in others. At the very least, it helps them to know that there is someone out there who can manage things for him.

Dear Mr auh:

Thank you for your informative writing.

Like your metaphor very mucgh. Navagrahas reporting to CEO - Narayana.

If CEO assigned someone, why not respect His wish and go to the Navagrahas directly.
Also why should CEO or his direct reports be bribed / or influenced by whatever we plead. Why should my surrendering please Him the CEO

Imagine if you will that someone creates a group of robots and then the person who made the robots want those robots to surrender to him . Strange behavior bordering on insanity, dont you think?

Robots go by how they are programmed by the person in the first place.

Why give me free will and then demand I surrender that will to Him for my being saved.

Also you say, advaita does not include surrender to any God .. is that really true?
 
Surrendering to God is a form of self deception.

Inability to face issues facing a person drives him to look for an imaginary God .

If it gives relief to him , he should feel free to pursue that path...

For me it is a big no no.

Dear Mr krish44:

Thanks for sharing your views.

One member who is silent here said something and I am paraphrasing.

He discovered one day looking at the world that he is really useless and small. Then he discovered the God concept..
God is a concept ? who knows. May be your comment may address types like him for sure
 
Yesterday day - Varhar Jayanthi - celebrated in our temple - picked this from the lecture by த.கு. சுப்ரமணியன் on surrender or பக்தி yesterday
முக்தக்கு ஒரே வழி பாத கமலங்களை பற்றுதல் -
பாதக மலங்களை பற்றினால் மூக்தி கிட்டாது!
 
Actually what is so hard to surrender?
We humans surrender on daily basis.

A baby surrenders to his/ her mother for survival.
The baby has built in faith that he/she would be taken care by mother.

Lovers/spouses surrender to each other esp during a physical moment.

Warriors surrender in a war.

Criminals surrender to Police.

When we are held captive or life is in danger we surrender to our captor.

A patient surrenders to a doctor.
A passenger surrenders to a pilot of a plane.

So why the freak when it comes to God alone its so hard to surrender? Is it our Ego?

As I said earlier in another post..total surrender is not entirely possible cos we humans are selfish creatures who rely on an external support system during acute stress...Once that stress is over ..surrender concept is forgotten.

BTW Guys ...if you dont surrender anything even a tryst with a female wont be possible!LOL
 
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........ As I said earlier in another post..total surrender is not entirely possible cos we humans are selfish creatures who rely on an external support system during acute stress...Once that stress is over ..surrender concept is forgotten. ......
Dear Renu,

Story time: A rich man was drowning in the floods of River Ganga and cried out for help. He thought in his mind, "If God sends

someone to save me, I shall give my whole wealth to him, for saving my life. Within seconds, a brave youngster jumped into the

river and swam towards the rich man. On seeing the youngster, the man thought, "Oh! Here comes the help. I shall give him half

of my wealth!" When the youngster caught hold of the man, he thought, "Nice guy! I shall give him at least one thousand rupees!".

Finally, when he was dragged to the shore, the man took out a hundred rupee note and gave to the youngster, with a big grin!! :D
 
Dear Mr Iyyarooraan:

Thanks for sharing your beliefs. If He is whole , am I his part already or a part that has nothing to do with Him? In anycase why should he separate me in the first place and then want me to be his whole ..

Nobody knows the alpha and omega. Please let us , rather we should, suppose that God created the universe for fun or leela. He produced life and gave them varied intelligence. We are given free will and God set us to go and come back to Him by the same free will. Remember God is omnipotent and he can squeeze us all into to One. Can he? A less than 10-second earthquake can make us believe that. Our free will has led us astray and we have been wandering . We are now the causes and reasons of our free will. God is reason and his world is also a reason. Suddenly God cannot be un-reasonable and ask you to go back to him with out going through the mill of births . This is a comfortable thinking until something else comes up to disprove.
 
Sri a-TB wrote:-

"You said "Does "surrender" in the psychological sense, NOT the philosophical sense, make sense?" - that makes sense to me definitely.

"So surrender to God has therapeutic value for one who is in despair.

"Not sure why people who are not in despair chase after surrender - perhaps angling to go to a place heaven?"


If I might venture an opinion, it depends largely on who "people" in this context is, or are.

Some are so overcome by their own sense of inferiority, by their inherent weakness of mind to face life, by their lack of ability and willingness to fight and win, that they prefer to play "second fiddle" to everyone and everything, and seek to hide behind a Power -- God.

This conceived "God" might well demand absolute submission and, not because of despair but just weakness of character, and sense of helplessness, the "devotee" surrenders in spirit. Fear does not enter into it at all. It is the nature of the individual's psychological and intellectual makeup. In other words, he uses his "free will" to surrender to the donor of that free will.

Much as we do when we elect politicians to represent us in the highest echelons of power, based on the concept of "peoples' power". Or grease the palms of corrupt civil servants to get things done.

The strong-willed, who reject any curb on their own self-perceived self-sufficiency, might well reject not only any guru, godmen, god or goddess telling them how to behave, but also all man-made and god-made laws, rules and restrictions on their freedom to do what they think, what they like, what they can do. "I know best: who is there to challenge me?" is their credo.

Surely, there is a middle path where the intelligent, mature, thinking man (or woman) lights a ghee lamp, a bunch of incense sticks, or does does puja or prostration to God, not so much with the intention of abjectly surrendering as such, but as an expression of educated discipline? Much as one shakes the proferred hand of a a stranger, takes off one's footwear before entering another's house, or doffs one's headgear in he presence of the dead?

shareeramsuroopam thathaa vaa kalathram
yashashchaaaru chithram dhanam meruthulyam
guroramghripadme manaschenna lagnam
thathah kim thathah kim thathah kim thathah kim?

S Narayanaswamy Iyer
 
Prostration before God/Goddesses is educated discipline? What crap.

Discipline has nothing to do with all this IMHO.

People follow some practices which have been handed down generations and prostration is one of them.

Heavens are not going to come crashing down if one stops this practice of prostration before God or living beings which is worse of the two.
 
1. Prostration before God/Goddesses is educated discipline? What crap.

2. Discipline has nothing to do with all this IMHO.

3. People follow some practices which have been handed down generations and prostration is one of them.

4. Heavens are not going to come crashing down if one stops this practice of prostration before God or living beings which is worse of the two.
My answers:

1. It is NOT crap! :nono:

2. Unless disciplined, people will think like you! :D

3. It is always good to follow the good habits taught by our elders.
:hail:

4. No one is afraid that heavens will come crashing down; they want ONLY blessings from the Almighty / elders. :)
 
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Surely, there is a middle path where the intelligent, mature, thinking man (or woman) lights a ghee lamp, a bunch of incense sticks, or does does puja or prostration to God, not so much with the intention of abjectly surrendering as such, but as an expression of educated discipline? Much as one shakes the proferred hand of a a stranger, takes off one's footwear before entering another's house, or doffs one's headgear in he presence of the dead?



S Narayanaswamy Iyer

Educated discipline?

What has education got to do with discipline?

Even animals that had not had an formal education have discipline instilled by nature.

Its better to be totally ignorant and surrender to God then to try to prove a point on technical grounds to denote intelligence or educated discipline.

God does not care who is educated and who is not.

When we die only our obituary states our formal degrees or so called "spiritual education" status..For God it means nothing.

If one prays with the intention to show God that he/she has grey matter or educated discipline..that is not the Middle Path...that is the Egoistic Path..where one tries to act "classy" but fails miserably.
 
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Dear Renu,

Animals don't need education; but humans do! :)

Here education does not mean studying in good schools /colleges only!

See how Wiki defines:

Education is the process of facilitating learning, or the acquisition of knowledge, skills, values, beliefs, and habits
 
Dear Renu,

Animals don't need education; but humans do! :)

Here education does not mean studying in good schools /colleges only!

See how Wiki defines:



Dear RR ji,

Over the years I have come to believe that education of any sorts including what Wiki defines has nothing got to do with a persons true values and nature.
 

Heavens are not going to come crashing down if one stops this practice of prostration before God or living beings which is worse of the two.
-- Veteran Krish 44.

Sir, why parrot the obvious? Was the late greatly-worshipped "Amma" Jayaram Jayalalitha told this, Sir? By you or your
like-minded colleagues? When she was at the height of her power? Why not? She was an Iyengar, was she not?

Will the Heavens fall ("come crashing down" in your language), if you attended your beloved next I/C I/R wedding in your swim-shorts Or wore collarless T-shirt and hot-pants to your next interview with your boss/investor/internatiional guest in his/her office? Kindly try, and report. Thanks.

If it is educated discipline to dress formally on formal occasions and casually on casual occasions, why do the seemingly uneducated undisciplined among us condemn the way others among us worship God? Does their saying there is no God mean there is none? More than a billion Muslims are wrong and they alone are right? More than a billion Jews and Christians are wrong and they alone are right? The surviving handful of old-fashioned Brahmins are totally wrong, and they alone are wholly right?

All because they are under the delusion that they alone have a logical, thinking, wise mind and the whole world does not? Because only loose cannon can shoot straight at the target?

Some we know cannot outgrow their adolescent rebelliousness, some, by some Act of God, are born faith-challenged, God-challenged, even mind-challenged. Some foxes, as we have heard from fables, lose their tails, having escaped from traps, and urge all other foxes in the same forest to cut off their tails and become "modern" and "fashionable" like them. Most of us let these precocious rebels, revolters, revolutionaries preach their creeds, but remain mostly imperviously silent.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer
 
I was talking about the practice of prostration before any living being or anything else..

Can one not pray without prostration ?

It is even specified how many times [one or four depending on sects one belongs] one has to do that.It is imposed by the sect on followers of the sect.

Anyway where does education and discipline come into this.

Is there some elitism also that educated should pray in some way and belong to an elitist educated club of sorts.

Where does discipline come into all this?

There is no anti God rhetoric here.

Only expressing displeasure in practices of worship of some
 
I was talking about the practice of prostration before any living being or anything else..

Can one not pray without prostration ?

It is even specified how many times [one or four depending on sects one belongs] one has to do that.It is imposed by the sect on followers of the sect.

Anyway where does education and discipline come into this.

Is there some elitism also that educated should pray in some way and belong to an elitist educated club of sorts.

Where does discipline come into all this?

There is no anti God rhetoric here.

Only expressing displeasure in practices of worship of some

Well said.

All objections to your earlier post are Over ruled..you may proceed.
 
... Can one not pray without prostration ? ......
Yeah! We can, to avoid using a few muscles! :D

BTW, 'Surya Namaskar' seems to be the best exercise to tone the whole body! :thumb:

icon3.png
Benefits of Surya Namaskar
 
Prostration before God/Goddesses is educated discipline? What crap.

Discipline has nothing to do with all this IMHO.

People follow some practices which have been handed down generations and prostration is one of them.

Heavens are not going to come crashing down if one stops this practice of prostration before God or living beings which is worse of the two.

Why does a soldier salute a Major when the later walks by? Will Heavens come down crashing if does not? Answer please.
 
Some we know cannot outgrow their adolescent rebelliousness, some, by some Act of God, are born faith-challenged, God-challenged, even mind-challenged. Some foxes, as we have heard from fables, lose their tails, having escaped from traps, and urge all other foxes in the same forest to cut off their tails and become "modern" and "fashionable" like them. Most of us let these precocious rebels, revolters, revolutionaries preach their creeds, but remain mostly imperviously silent.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer

well said.
 
When an unjust order starts crumbling, the adherants to that order cling to each other to destroy the intruder and to continue their merry ways.

When forces of change take on the status quo, change ultimately wins if the change is for the better and leads to a better life for many who are discriminated against.

Just closing eyes and dismissing it off reminds me of cats which think by closing eyes the world will become dark.
 
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