Culture-some questions

[sravna]

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I agree with you Sri.Raghy. That is the nature of the physical world. But I would say all is not reset at death, but those that are learnt in addition to those that need to be unlearnt are carried on by the soul.

 

[anandb]

We came here empty handed; we will leave empty handed. All the things in between are Maya. It is like a computer role play game..we need all the things to fulfil the purpose in the game; once the 'game over', all the things gets reset.

Cheers!

Shri. Raghy,
On a lighter vein, seeing your comments above, just remembered a part of the song below. If you follow Rajni, you will know which song this is.

வெறும் கம்பங்களி தின்னவனும் மண்ணுக்குள்ளே
அட தங்கபஸ்பம் தின்னவனும் மண்ணுக்குள்ளே

இந்த வாழ்கை வாழத்தான்
நாம் பிறக்கையில் கையில் என்ன கொண்டு வந்தோம் கொண்டு செல்ல

......

தாயை தேர்தெடுக்கும், தந்தையை தேர்தெடுக்கும்
உரிமை உன்னிடத்தில் இல்லை

முகத்தை தேர்தெடுக்கும், நிறத்தை தேர்தெடுக்கும்
உரிமை உன்னிடத்தில் இல்லை

பிறப்பை தேர்தெடுக்கும், இறப்பை தேர்தெடுக்கும்
உரிமை உன்னிடத்தில் இல்லை

எண்ணி பார்க்கும் வேளையில்
உன் வாழ்கை மட்டும்
உந்தன் கையில் உண்டு
அதை வென்றிடு

 

[sangom]

Sri.Sravana said -

Sri.Sravana,

Greetings. I was following your conversation with Sow.Happy Hindu and Sri.Sangom with interest.What I am about to write is not a part of any such conversations.

What we see in this world is real; what we touch, we see, we feel are all real. What we have in the bank is real. Our children, family, neighbours, home, town, country..everything is real. Our qualification is real. Our education is real.

So, what is Maya? Maya is 'I', 'Mine', 'Our', 'Us' etc. My body touches the computer, pecking away the message; my body is drinking the coffee; .....all this 'my' and 'I' are just the body. One day this machine will stop. We won't be able to take anything with us; 'our children', 'our family' and friends will stay behind.

We came here empty handed; we will leave empty handed. All the things in between are Maya. It is like a computer role play game..we need all the things to fulfil the purpose in the game; once the 'game over', all the things gets reset.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

What you say above is in line with our philosopies, but when we say,"My body touches the computer, pecking away the message; my body is drinking the coffee", there is a fallacy, according to me. If it is the body which is so doing those and other acts, should we not find a dead body (before cremation, of course) asking for coffee in the morning, meals at noon, water to drink, etc. ?

 

[senthil]

Dear All,

First of all, i offer my thanks for inviting me to join this forum. Many members felt apologetic about my response to the member "nara".. i request them not to be apologetic, for in debate, heated argument is natural.. i did not feel insulted or hurt, because, i see intent more than the action, and since the member "nara" do not have any personal enmity, he has no bad intent for me. He only ridicules my argument and NOT me as a whole..

Before i participate, i would like to express some of the views..

1. The title of the forum is "tamil brahmins" and the purpose is "to create a forum of brahmins of tamilnadu". So considering the purpose, other community members need not be allowed. The way some members expressed their regret and guilt feeling, some times makes me think, that the brahmins had not come out of the guilt feeling, which they should not be having. (I would explain the reason later). So, even if you have decided NOT to allow me, its still a right thing, and i would have taken it positively. I am now a guest user allowed for a particular purpose.

2. I too run a group for our community (kongu vellalars), and we allow persons only after verification. Every community have the right to have their personal space.

3. the term "casteist" is not as bad as it used to be projected in media.. so again no apologetic feeling out of it..


the moderator had said, that other members should not intervene.. but i feel, if other members want to participate, i have no objection.. if i have to opt out, after debate with member "nara", i would accept the same..

 

[senthil]

I will first reply to the following comment of the member "Nara" (may i know his full name?)

This particular blog is full of opinions and half truths. There were some out and out falsehoods as well. Here is one:

Today’s backward classes or Sudras cultural and economic backwardness is post 1800 due to impact of British economic policies.
​

This is the reason one has to dig up the past and show what the truth really is, otherwise, these unabashed casteists like the author of this blog will rewrite history, and find enough takers to nod their heads vigorously, and applaud enthusiastically, in motivated agreement. There is enough evidence to show that untouchability and horrendous caste-based oppression existed long before Britain was even a nation state.

I would leave it to nara sir, to explain how the statement is half truth.

But i will explain how this statement is true..

Before britishers dominated india (ie, before 1800), there are so many local rulers apart from kings.. These kings and rulers are NOT individuals .. rather they are part of the community.. what happened to those ruling communities, after 1800? Does Nara sir had answer for this?

I will explain w.r.t to my community.. kongu nadu had autonomous administration and various posts, like maniakarara, kothukarar, pattakarar, naattar.. the families which once occupied these posts are still retaining the same title.. for eg, pattakarar are heads of a larger area called Naadu.. but today, there are many pattakarar families with just 5 or 10 acres..
Like wise, there are many maniakarars who works as watch man..

Today my community is termed as backward caste.. but what was it before 1800?

We are farming community and hence we happened to own farm lands.. But what about those rulers and kings?

Next, if we look at the practices of the different SC communities, we can gauge their history to some how.. The pallars are one of the SC community, and their family rituals are next only to brahmins.. like wise, the marriage tradition of parayars have a ceremony of groom taken procession around the village in a horse..

I dont know about other communities.. but the very presence of these marriage customs and other family customs indicate, their once progressive past.. How can a suppressed or oppressed community have the freedom to have a procession of their groom around the village?

The reality is that proper documents about our social structure, various castes are available only after 1800, when britishers started taking survey of our region for taking policy decisions.. One such survey is the educational status of india at 1830s all over india, covering from bengal province to madras presidency.. all these surveys are taken by collectors of respective districts and sent to London, which are available in british archivals..

Dharampal, was a gandhian, and after independance, he spent three decades in London, going through all those british archivals and taking hand written copy (due to lack of copying machine and lack of funds).. imagine, he spent full 30 years in british museum collecting all those archivals related to india.. When he came back to india, he had loads of trunk boxes of his collected material..

And till that time, almost all intellectuals, believed in the british created history (infact story) that higher castes oppressed lower castes (which implies brahmins oppressed all other castes).. the statements of Nara sir, quoted above, reflects the same kind of mentality, exhibited when dharampal came back to india..

And he is the first person, to negate this false history, and he quoted extensively from his 30 years of works.. Impressed by his works, a group of journalists and history students, helped him to compile these in to 6 volumes, and after his death, these are available free of download in his website.. DHARAMPAL's India

I would like to quote Shri Gurmuthy's article on dharampal, and i first happened to know about dharampal from his article..

the original link of newindpress is not available.. i am giving a reproduced content..
Column by S. Gurumurthy in Indian Express

I downloaded all the published works of dharampal, and gone through it.. particularly the book "The beautiful tree" is something that throws entirely a different perspective of our history.. i went through all british achivals reproduced in that book, and as per the statements of the british collectors themselves, all communities were getting education in the native indian schools run predominantly by brahmins and pillaimars..

Members can download that book from the below link..
http://www.samanvaya.com/dharampal/frames/downloads/3beautiful-tree.zip

I would also like to quote my own experiences.. The government school in my village was started only around 1975.. before that, a teacher family was imparting education for the past two generations.. My grandfather studied up to 5th from that teacher.. and my father too studied from the same teacher.. and i interacted with some old dalit peope.. they too said, they studied under the same teacher..

For most brahmins, who migrated to cities many decades before, they dont have fair idea of the rural india.. they were already living in a westernised urban city.. It is they who first went to colleges in the early decades.. Unfortunately, without any exposure to rural india, they happened to learn about india only from text books, and what is taught in text books can be gauged from what Nara sir has written in this forum as quoted above..

But, i came from rural background, and happened to study in matriculation.. i studed all those academic rubbish but i did not think enough to notice the difference b/w what i lived and what i studied.. It is only after reading dharampal articles, i started looking back at my own life, and i found so many contradictions..

I am placing my points both from authentic data and from my own life experience.. I would request those who oppose me to provide relevant data..

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri sangom, Dr. Bhabasaheb Ambedkar used this definition of culture to argue that the Varna system of Hinduism does not allow a common culture to develop. Each Varna and subcaste has its own cultural tradition, some aspects of which are benign and others not so. At the extremes, the culture of Dalits is so completely alien to the Brahmins and other FC NB followers of Brahminism.

The achievements of ancient Indians are made possible by all Indians, either directly, or indirectly. It is the toil of Dalits that provided the leisure for the elites to engage in intellectual pursuits. These achievements belong to all Indian, including the ones who criticize Hinduism or Brahminism.

Criticism of Brahminism is not a criticism of all cultures of Bharath. In fact, criticism of Brahminism is an Indian tradition, most ancient of them being the Lokayatas and Buddists. So, I reject the claim that any criticism of Hinduism/Brahminism is anti-Bharath.

Also, this notion that those who do not live in India have no right to criticize is a complete canard. Anyone with an interest can criticize. The validity of a criticism is not a function of the geographical location of their home. Shutting down voices based on this geographical location criterion goes against the Rg vedic dictum that welcomes noble thoughts from all sides. To welcome noble thoughts all thoughts must be let in first.

Thank you sir for all the erudite posts, I appreciate them all.

Cheers!

Dear Nara,

i cannot...but agree with you!

 

[sangom]

dear sangom :

what a wonderful and honest reply in your above post.nri,pio are as much Indian like any domicile Indian residing in India.I did have to reconcile to the fact,that aamerican/australian/canadian/malaysian etc citizen has no RIGHT to pontificate to Indians,which i have graciously undergone a transformation of sorts,as i now believe pio even though not a indian citizen,but very much loves/cares for Indians and their unique culture,which is changing very much like the western culture is.

superb post from you,sir.

Thank you, sir.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

To me vedas seem very coherent, sensible and also intuitively very appealing to a large extent because I think it tries to see what is beneath the surface. It gives a more profound interpretation of the external world and how an individual is related to it.

My knowledge of vedas is not extensive especially compared to that possessed by some of our members in this forum. But even a limited though fundamental knowledge of it makes me strongly believe that the ancient seers had no malicious or biased interests. Nor did they lack in wisdom. All that they said and did I think was for the general well being of all and for a harmonious existence within the larger framework of concepts such as karma etc.,

The problem is that, to someone who does not believe in these theories and who goes only by evidence and direct observation these may seem far-fetched and not describing reality. So when you see the varna system in isolation stripping off its larger spiritual context it would seem vulnerable to attack by the rationalists.

But when you think that the essence of Hinduism is that it says you to perfect your mind, is enough substance for me to put my belief in it wholeheartedly.

srvana,

when reasonable folks like you and me, if we close our eyes to reality, does the reality go away?

among other things that we can claim uniqueness, is the concept of casteism, where we deliberately discarded 1/4 of our known humanity to garbage. i cannot see, this type of stratification ever having a renewal at any time in the future.

we have learned. we have become smarter. today's accessibility of universal knowledge and instant communication, makes a farce of theories of stratification - ie one is predestined to be a brahmin, with all its supposed 'burdens'.

i do not know much about vedas either. but i do know manu to an extent that i think this was the biggest disaster for hinduism today, if it does not openly disengage itself from manu's doctrines.

even to passively stand aside, is a crime, i think, against humanity. our daughters are the true reflection of bharathiar's dream woman, and manu has no place for them.

i doubt whether reading vedas in its entirety, and disengaging one from obnoxious ideas and practices is ever practicable. maybe if one lives isolated in a forest. in today's day to day engagement, i think, it is the duty of every hindu, regardless of caste, to publicly & privately proclaim to eschew casteism, and acknowledge the crimes committed in its name.

nothing else will suffice to cleanse the soul and climb it from the cycle of birth. i think so anyway.

 

[Nara]

...even to passively stand aside, is a crime, i think, against humanity.

Yes, Yes..... K, I feel compelled to express my appreciation for this post. As they say, when good people stay silent , etc., etc.,

....we deliberately discarded 1/4 of our known humanity to garbage..... our daughters are the true reflection of bharathiar's dream woman, and manu has no place for them.

If we look at the place Manu gives for women this not just 1/4th, but that would be just a quibble considering power of your full statement.

Cheers!

 

[R. Ramanujan]

Guys if u reside in new delhi then kindly admit ur children in DTEA(Delhi Tamil Education Association). Its a tamil school funded by Govt. Although its no match for private schools but atleast ur children will get tamil culture as base. nandrigal.

 

[sangom]

among other things that we can claim uniqueness, is the concept of casteism, where we deliberately discarded 1/4 of our known humanity to garbage. i cannot see, this type of stratification ever having a renewal at any time in the future.

Dear Kunjuppu, Nara,

It was not 1/4 even when the chaturvarnya was introduced, IMO. It should have been a still higher ratio (percentage) taking into account there was an unknown number outside the fourfold classification, even according to Manu himself.

i doubt whether reading vedas in its entirety, and disengaging one from obnoxious ideas and practices is ever practicable. maybe if one lives isolated in a forest.

I can say, from my limited personal experience, that if we attempt to read the original scriptures or their uncoloured translations, we can rise above Manu as well as many other things. The tragedy is that our ancients perhaps knew the disaster inherent in making every one conversant with Sanskrit and able to interpret the scriptures and effectively prevented it by taking sanskrit away. Just as the laity in Christianity has no right to interpret their scriptures, but only to accepy what the clergy said those things meant, we were reduced to an uneducated laity.

People like Sravna, IMO, should read and understand the original scriptures instead of their coloured interpretations by some one else.

 

[senthil]

comparison of education in England and Madras in 1800

Often, the english educated indians, claim that britishers introduced education to the illiterate indians.. Some even go the extent that it is the britishers who taught as how to wear pants..

But dharampals findings prove otherwise.. i am quoting from his book "Beautiful Tree"..
page# 70

In 1822-25, the number of those in ordinary schools was put at over 1,50,000 in the Madras Presidency. Evidently, the infer*ence that the number was appreciably, perhaps a great deal higher some 20 or 30 years earlier, cannot
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]be ruled out. At any rate, nowhere was there any suggestion made that it was much less than it had been in 1822-25. The population of the Madras Presidency in 1823 was estimated at 1,28,50,941, while the population of England in 1811 was estimated at 95,43,610. It may be noted from this that, while the differences in the population of the two regions were not that significant, the numbers of those attending the various types of schools (Charity, Sunday, Circulating) in England were in all in the neighbourhood of around 75,000 as compared to at least double this number within the Madras Presidency. Further, more than half of this number of 75,000 in English schools consisted of those who attended school at the most only for 2-3 hours on a Sunday.
[FONT=&quot]However, after about 1803, every year a marked increase took place in the number of those attending schools in England. The result: the number of 75,000 attending any sort of school around 1800 rose to 6,74,883 by 1818, and 21,44,377 in 1851, i.e. an increase of about 29 times in a period of about fifty years. It is true that the content of this education in England did not improve much during this half century. Neither did the period spent in school increase: from more than an average of one year in 1835 to about two years in 1851. The real implication of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Gandhi*ji’s observation, and of the information provided by the Madras Presidency collectors, W. Adam and G.W. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Leitner, is that for the following 50-100 years, what happened in India—within the developing situation of relative collapse and stagnation—proved the reverse of the developments taking place in England.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

​

I happened to read an article in tamilhindu.com on dharampal findings.. although they are hindu based online paper, the quotes they gave from different sources is really important.. This would give us an idea of the attitude of the elite nobles there in england during 1800s. Appropriate references were given at the end of the article.

??????????? » ??????????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????? ??????? ???????

ஆண்டு 1807. இடம் இங்கிலாந்து பாராளுமன்றத்தின் பொதுமக்கள் மன்றம் (House of Commons). இங்கிலாந்தின் பிரபல விஞ்ஞானியான டேவிட் கில்பர்ட் பேசுகிறார்:
“உழைக்கும் மக்களுக்குக் கல்வியைக் கொடுப்பதால் என்ன நலன் விளையப் போகிறது? அதனுடைய இறுதியான முடிவு உழைப்பாளிகளின் ஒழுக்கத்துக்கும் சந்தோஷத்துக்கும் கெடுதலாகத்தான் அமையும். அவர்களுக்கென்று சமுதாய அடுக்குமுறையில் விதிக்கப்பட்டுள்ள விவசாய வேலையையும் இதர கடும் உடல் உழைப்பு தேவைப்படும் வேலைகளையும் திருப்தியுடன் செய்யாமல், அவர்கள் தங்கள் வாழ்க்கை நிலையை அதிருப்தியுடன் பார்க்கக் கல்வி கற்றுக் கொடுத்துவிடும். அடங்கி இருக்காமல் துடுக்குத்தனமாகவும் இஷ்டம் போலவும் நடக்க அவர்கள் தலைப்படுவார்கள்…கிறிஸ்தவ மதத்துக்கு எதிரான பிரச்சாரங்கள் வெளியீடுகள் ஆகியவற்றை அவர்கள் படிக்க அது வழி வகுத்துவிடும்.”[1]


For other quotes, please read the above article..

So is it not time to question, whether britishers taught us or they learned from us and implemented there, while collapsing our own system?

 

[R. Ramanujan]

Vedic studies is very important for hindus.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Pannvalan,
Please find my comments on the remaining points. I am not able to send attachment somehow; it does not work.


[FONT=&quot]

2.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]First, our hoary past. Secondly, our moral conscience. Thirdly, our copious literature and neethi sastras as told by our ancestors. Next, our typical family set up and its merits and advantages. Fifthly, our respect to our elders, masters/teachers/gurus. Sixth, our hospitality (entertaining the athithis). Next, our genius in mathematics, astronomy, medicine and surgery and so on. In administration, there are so many works like Kautilya’s Artha Sastra, Mahabharatha or Thirukkural which deal with public administration. In administration of justice, ditto. Indians are known for their excellent saving habit and thrift (Savings in the country did not get much affected, even when the rate of interest on various investment instruments fell to 5.50% - the lowest I have ever seen – in 2003 from 13% in 1999). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Lastly, in spite of so many scams and crimes happening before us, because of lethargy, connivance and corruption of persons at the helm of affairs, people are by and large, peaceful, honest and law abiding.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I have already replied to your opening sentence. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Hoary past and a culture to be proud of, have no essential relationship, IMO. Even if it is conceded for argument’s sake (but not accepting it) Egypt, China etc., have a hoarier past. Hence we cannot take credit simply for the hoariness. And, if we are talking about hoariness we should definitely include the primitive tribal cultures which have left their indelible footprint in Indian culture which are still visible today in famous places like Kalighat, Kamakhya, etc., and also isolated pockets where fowls, and other animals are sacrificed routinely.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Moral conscience is not a monopoly of India. “Moral”means ‘concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behaviour and character based on those principles’; every tribe, every human group, every country, has its morals and the people will have conscience in harmony with what is perceived by them as moral. Buddha and Mahavira did not accept the moral conscience of the vedic brahmins and their sacrificial rituals inflicting cruelty to animals, and later, the Brahmins did not accept the Buddhist and Jainist moralities and even instigated kings in Tamil Nadu to cruelly annihilate them. So, there is hardly any substance in your pronouncement about “our moral conscience”. May be you think “our” means that of TB only.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You then refer to “our typical family set up”, as though there is one uniform type of family set up for the whole of India. I think you do not take into account the disintegration of joint families among even the TBs or else you are all praise for today’s nuclear family set up. Speaking in the context of Indian Culture, which you claim to do, you are not clear whether your praise is for the “Tarvad” and matrilineal family system of Kerala and Assam, the mitakshara or daayabhaaga system of family, both of which still exist in different parts, or the tribal set up prevalent among the Bhils, Gonds, Todas and several other groups.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Incidentally, every country has its family set up and it works for each country. For example in Thailand, the man goes to his wife’s house and works in their family farms, and they also take pride in it. So, you see, there is nothing so great about our family set up except perhaps the diversity that we see in different types of family set up living in harmony in the same country, India.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In regard to what you term as “our respect to our elders, masters/teachers/gurus”, do you claim that such customs exist only in India and among Indians only and the rest of the world is all primitive? Even in India, some people do “abhivadaye” to elders, while some others in a different part of the country touch the feet of the elders and then touch their forehead in a symbolic act of “namaskar”. But the respect is the same. In other countries and cultures the same sentiment is expressed in very many different fashions. So what is it that is so unique to India In these respects?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Speaking about “our copious literature and neethi sastras as told by our ancestors”, do you emphasize the ‘copious’ part or the ‘literature and neeti sastras’ part? As for neeti sastra, the whole world agrees that Hammurabi’s (c. 18th. century B.C.) was the first law code so far unearthed. Hence our law codes pale into insignificance before that; nor can we say that our law codes (neethi sastras) were more humane or equitable than those of Hammurabi’s. We could have really boasted if we had preserved and followed Asoka’s edicts, but, unfortunately the so-called Indian Culture of which you are proud, has all but eradicated Buddha out of this country itself.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Our genius in mathematics, astronomy, medicine and surgery” was there but these did not flourish. I have already given my views on why we need to be more concerned about all these geniuses getting extinguished long before the Muslim invations began, and how in a similar time duration or less, the West has achieved marvellous results, despite (or due to?) two intervening World Wars of more than the Kurukshetra war. Pl. see item no.3 below. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I don’t know whether saving habit per se is a good thing at all, let alone a cultural plus point for a population as a whole. Another country which may have less savings rate can still have a vibrant and stable economy so long as it does not default in payments..[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]First of all, you seem to omit Kashmir, Assam, Nagaland, Manipur and the Maoist uprisings, from your reckoning. Taking those also into account, we cannot sayIndia is a peaceful country. If we consider only those portions of the country with which we have immediate concern, we may feel satisfied that everything is hunky-dory with India. Then again, India is not the only country which has a “relatively peaceful” atmosphere; China is also more or less in a similar position.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] 3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Because of internecine quarrels and fragmentation of the country into small and tiny provinces, resources were limited and the administrative machinery did not follow uniform standards everywhere and people at grass-root level lost their voice and power, our progress was halted. Moreover, this was the period, in Indian History, proper documentation of events was not done for the posterity.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In the west also the conditions were not much different; though we denote ‘the West’, it contained a number of individual countries who were not in the best of terms most of the time. N. America also had somewhat peaceful time only after the end of the civil war in 1865 and its disastrous after effects leading to the great Depression from 1929-1941. Hence our lack of any genuine progress in any of the branches of science, shows some inherent shortcoming of our culture and throwing the blame on the fissiparous tendencies is only escapism.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]‘We’ indicates the collective Indian populace.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You should ask this question to yourself; if a person like you, who professes so much about our culture, could not do even a bit of what you want others to do,, does not it show that we, as a nation, are backward in that respect at least and should we not feel ashamed that our culture lacks this quality?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5. People like Romila Thapar and his coterie in Indian History Congress and also persons like Max Muller distorted the Indian history to suit their ideologies.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I don’t know when Romila Thapar became a male! If this is the kind of knowledge with which you castigate a person, then less said the better. Anyway you could not even say how many people are there in Romila Thapar’s coterie. We cannot imagine that every Indian historian is in that coterie.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]7. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I request you to go through works of latest origin – Deivathin Kural by Kanchi sage, Bharathi’s works, Ramana Maharishi’s teachings, Swami Vivekananda’s speeches and writings will enlighten you on this subject.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If you have read all those works then it should be possible for you to tell someone about it. Since you do not seem to be able to explain what is this true path of spiritualism, even after reading all those books (or is it that you have not read any of those books but are only using those as yet another escape route?) I conclude that those books do not enable one to grasp what ‘the true path of spiritualism’.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]8. Different scandals like Bhopal, Bofors, Babri Masjid, Harshad Mehta, Bhupen Dalal, Commonwealth Games-2010, Spectrum 2G allocation, espionage activities of an Indian woman from Indian Embassy, for Pakistan etc. will corroborate what I have written. See the degree of punishment given to Bofors (Indian) officials. What happened to Afzal Guru? Why are we silent on Chinese aggression and threats? Why we could not make even our small neighbours like Bangladesh or Nepal or Burma listen to our sane voice? Why shall we cede Kashmir (POK) to Pakistan? Why we could not respond properly to Nov.2008 Mumbai attacks?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My question was simple and straight forward; how do all these instances get linked to our "present political dispensation and the bureaucratic set-up at the state and central levels" being "unpatriotic"? In your opinion, did India ever have a patriotic political dispensation and/or bureaucratic set-up? If so why the problems which then existed, could not be patriotically ended? If, according to you, India never had a patriotic political dispensation and/or bureaucratic set-up, why did it happen? Don’t you think there is something wrong with the Indian culture that it just could not rectify such a grave deficiency in all these 63 years? Should we not be ashamed of our culture, then?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]9. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I disagree with you on this.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]No comments since the grounds for disagreement are not given.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]10. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Please go through the last 20 posts of this thread itself.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I could find no condemnation of our culture in the 20 posts, except the one by you (post #83 in this thread) wherein you say, “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Of late, I am observing some members are showing 'oneupmanship' simply because of the reason they were educated in the most reputed universities in USA/UK. They also seem to derive pride in saying they have discarded their age-old traditions, saying they are not in sync with modern times. They at times go to the extent of ridiculing other beliefs, arguments and some basic truth itself. My intelligent friends would have easily guessed whom I am referring to.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]They simply toe the line of the famous (!) British and European historians, on the ground the India learnt everything from the west including its modern civilisation. How atrocious and insulting![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This kind of Bharath-bashing is not in good taste and shall be condemned strongly, by everybody.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To me this looks very much like your trying to settle personal scores with that someone whom you want us to guess! In my view one usually resorts to such tactics when one does not have the courage and decency to name the person and engage him directly, and perhaps is also afraid that he might get worsted in any direct argument with that unnamed opponent. This approach ill fits your parting warning of “Beware! pseudo-intellectuals”which, if really meant as a threat, would require more than this innuendo-type of courage. So, I find only your innuendo and no Bharat-bashing.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now, one simple question to you, Sir. Do you honestly feel convinced that we in India today can survive in this world without the help of all that we have copied from the West, including the computers at my end and yours? Can we discard all these knowledge which we have mostly copied from the westerners and live only with the help of whatever knowledge was bequeathed to us by Dharma Sastras, Kautilya, Ramana maharshi, Deivatthin Kural, Vivekananda, Bharatiar, Thirukkural, Mahabharata, Charaka and Susruta? If your answer is yes, I would like you to implement it in practice in your life; if you say ‘No’, then it is tantamount to admitting that all that you refer to as so invaluable, have little or no relevance or applicability today. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]11. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]India[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is slowly progressing in the recent past, say during the last 15 years only. Chinese are cleverly encircling us from all directions by establishing/strengthening their bases in Srilanka, Tibet, Nepal, POK, Pakistan etc. We are unable to stop their military incursions. Even the anticipated assistance and support from USA after Mumbai attacks have not come.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What have these instances to do with “ jettisoning” and “sinking the ship”? [/FONT]

 

[sangom]

[FONT=&quot]12. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]‘Soul of Bharat’is its cultural and spiritual identity.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We have already discussed the topics of India’s culture and the path of spiritualism. Hence I don’t want to repeat my points.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]14. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I wish to recall the words of George Bernard Shaw here.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]He once said, “Most of the ailments get cured in spite of doctors’ medicines/treatment”. In a similar vein, India is making progress in spite of the major hurdles it is facing in every sphere. If you carefully study the trajectory of economy, advancements made in science and technology, huge growth in I. T., Banking and Infrastructure, we Indians have achieved significant progress.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]All these were made possible thanks to the much-maligned education policy of Macaulay. Pl. note that here you also have only GBS to quote, none of the ancient authorities whom you praise; what a pity! So, if someone now tells that “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the India learnt everything from the west including its modern civilisation[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”, how will it be incorrect or unconvincing?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]15. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Instead of discarding, we have to build upon or reinforce. Discarding or demolishing will not help.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You can’t build upon a weak or unsatisfactory/unsuitable existing structure.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]16. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]No comments made.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My comments were for items 16 & 17 jointly.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]17. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For your information, the foreign inward remittances constitute just 6% of our forex inflows.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]FYI, when India had to pledge its gold in 1991 so as not to be labelled a “pauper” country, the then PM made an appeal to all NRIs (POI status was not existent then) in response to which NRI remittances showed a sudden increase; side by side GOI also made NRI deposits attractive. From then onwards it is the remittances from these “migrant community”which gives us our surplus foreign exchange, because since 1947, we import more than we export and so trade balance is negative but for one or two years, that was more an exception. You are comparing to total foreign exchange inflows but forgetting that even exports require imports and, as a thumb rule for India, it is only one-third of the exports which represents profit or surplus, plus we have to import so much even for our day-to-day requirements (petrol and petroleum products being one important category). Forex inflow is like total sales (all of that is not profit; nowadays a good part of it is for investment in sharemarket and is withdrawable at the slightest indication of trouble) whereas NRI remittances remain in the country since much of it is for maintenance of family, elders, children’ education here, etc., and will not go out of the country.) Last year NRI remittances were of the order of 5 percent of the GDP and it is this money which we are able to project as “India progressing”. The NRIs benefit the country in an indirect way also; as equal number of employment opportunities are made available here. Hence we should respect NRIs and POIs for safeguarding our international financial standing as much as we would respect our jawans for safeguarding us from enemy attacks. I will say that is patriotism.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]18. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It is for others to judge.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Other then exposing you as a person with a lot of misconceptions, I don’t think your writings have contributed anything positive.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Changes do not come from by restricting oneself to criticism or passing strictures. Changes stem from conscious and orgainsed efforts of many leaders from various spheres – social, educational, legal, economical, religious and external affairs. They will stay for long for the common good of the country.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I pray the Almighty for a bright future to our nation.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Since your concept of “ within”seems to be from within people living in India, as you maintain the view that NRIs and POIs have no connection, changes may come from Christian Missionaries or Jehadists, is it not?[/FONT]

 

[senthil]

Is the WEST sole owner of science and computers?

I have few points to share regarding sangom sir's reply.. i am quoting a portion of his below..

[FONT=&quot]Do you honestly feel convinced that we in India today can survive in this world without the help of all that we have copied from the West, including the computers at my end and yours? Can we discard all these knowledge which we have mostly copied from the westerners and live only with the help of whatever knowledge was bequeathed to us by Dharma Sastras, Kautilya, Ramana maharshi, Deivatthin Kural, Vivekananda, Bharatiar, Thirukkural, Mahabharata, Charaka and Susruta?

[/FONT]
I really feel sorry, that he believes that there is nothing in india before britishers..

In many forums, i have come across many saying that without computers and scientific progress of the west, we would be in dark ages.. In this regard i would like share few points regarding science, and that no single country can claim monopoly of science..

I would like to quote a book "Decolonising History" by claude alvares published by Other India Press.. Its available online at the following URLs.

http://www.indiawise.com/oip.doc

www.[B]indian[/B]science.org/essays/29-%20E--F-Decolonising%20History.pdf

I have gone through the entire book, and it focusses on the scientific advancement of china, india, africa and the relative advancement in Europe.. This book mentions many of the progress made in india, some of which i am listing below..

1. The indian textiles were superior in quality, that earned market in greek, and many parts of africa. The textiles were manufactured at many pockets in india, and sold to egypt, tanzania and many other parts. The britishers and other europeans, right from 15th century, were trying to capture this market, but they could not match the quality of indian textiles. In one instance, as the book explains, the europeans tried to produce fake the indian textiles, but the business men in tanzania easily identified and rejected it.

2. The indigo dyes were one of the unexplored secret for the britishers till they dominated indian politics. They could not reproduce the dye there.

3. The wootz steel is again of unmatched quality, which had a reputed market at damascus where sword is made out of it. Incidently, the iron ore is sourced from africa's coast, transferred to surat, converted to steel, which is then transferred to damascus..

4. There was a native method of treating Small pox through innoculation even in remote villages, which was existing for thousands of years. The british were surprised to see this treatment, which although was very inconvenient, and they developed it to a more convenient form. Incidently, they banned the native treatment methods, to gain monopoly over this.

This is available in dharampal's first book, where a transcript of speech at London about small pox treatement in india was made. Please let me know if you could not find it out in that book.

5. Many of you would have read about hindutva people or nationalist people, getting proud that Plastic surgery was followed in india for thousands of years. Liberals like Nara and sangom would outrightly ridicule and reject those as empty claims. But, there are details documentation available in dharampal's collection, on this. Before britishers, the popular punishment given by kings was cutting the nose. (this punishment seems to practiced from ramayana period)..
The person undergoing this punishment would go to a native vaidyar and get his nose restored to exact shape, within few weeks.
Few britishers have personally visited those treatments, and documented the same. Some even tried to copy that process, but could not do it for the next 50 years.

Please let me know if any one wanted source of this? Its available in dharampal.net

6. Similarly, scientific skills were present in each society, according to the need of the society. The agriculture practiced in india is one of the most advanced, where robert howard, who was deputed by britishers to improve agriculture in india, said that the system is already perfect and that it is he who has to learn a lot from indian farmers. As such, he found that farmers in even remote parts of india, used ploughs. He stopped one such farmer and asked "From where did you stole this plough?".. the farmer was perplexed, but said, i got it from his father. Howard again asked, from whom your father got.. the farmer replied, that his father got it from his grandfather...

7. The fact that Plants have life is known to indians for thousands of years.. even a small child in india will say that.. But the europeans, did not accept this till 19th century, when Jagadish Chandra Bose has to demonstrate it to them, which later was a base to many of botanical advancements..
Why i am pointing this is the attitude and perspective of the eastern and western cultures..


One of the main thing that britishers did to india was to destroy the native manufacturing industry.. The major sectors affected are agriculture, textiles, foundries, and many other artisans and crafts.

These details are available in the following archives which the britishers themselves documented..

The Digital South Asia Library-Imperial gazetteer of India

particularly the archivals on indian economy is very apt for this discussion..
Table of Contents -- Imperial Gazetteer of India -- Digital South Asia Library

the extent of the arts and crafts practiced in india, and the manufacturing industries, and others are documented in detail in the above links..

I can give more such references, but for narrowing the discussion i will end up here..

I request sangom sir and nara sir to take time to read up the references i have given, so that we could debate constructively..

The question of european scientific Advancement:
------------------------------------------------

Sangom sir has said that if western computers and advancement were NOT there, would we have survived in this world?

I would like to quote few historic incidents..

Many believe, that it is britishers who first used Canons and rifles.. But the fact is that Canons were used right during vijayanagara empire.. I do not say we invented canons or rifles.. But we never failed to use advancements happening in other countries..

The bamani kingdoms had canons sourced mainly from turkey, while the vijayanagara kings sourced canons from portugal.. Infact, the trade b/w vijayanagar and portugese has been strongly intervined, that the economy of portugese, fell with the fall of vijayanagara empire..

So we may not be the innovators.. but we were not averse to using latest techonlogies available at those times.. If we were a free nation (free nations), we would have had railways, posts, computers, electronics and many other things..

We have to remember that most of the famous european universities like oxford, cambridge were started only during 16th century, and time when europeans started their journey towards india..

Is it a coincidence that most technological advancements happened in europe, only after they colonised india?

The following link gives an account of how india was major source of gun powder for britishers.. and the gun powder was manufactured from ancient times because salpetre was available in large quantities in india,
Indian Gunpowder – the Force Behind Empires « 2ndlook – View From A Square Prism

I wish, we can have fact based debate, instead of slandering india or indian culture or any other things.. I also request pro-nationalist members not to get too much proud of india's past, because, it will eclipse our effort to understand more.. what is the meaning of prideness, if we dont know the details?

 

[happyhindu]

Hello Senthil,

Shri Nara has initiated a thread for you to begin the conversation: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/4806-britis-blame.html#post54099

Regards.

Dear All,

First of all, i offer my thanks for inviting me to join this forum. Many members felt apologetic about my response to the member "nara".. i request them not to be apologetic, for in debate, heated argument is natural.. i did not feel insulted or hurt, because, i see intent more than the action, and since the member "nara" do not have any personal enmity, he has no bad intent for me. He only ridicules my argument and NOT me as a whole..

Before i participate, i would like to express some of the views..

1. The title of the forum is "tamil brahmins" and the purpose is "to create a forum of brahmins of tamilnadu". So considering the purpose, other community members need not be allowed. The way some members expressed their regret and guilt feeling, some times makes me think, that the brahmins had not come out of the guilt feeling, which they should not be having. (I would explain the reason later). So, even if you have decided NOT to allow me, its still a right thing, and i would have taken it positively. I am now a guest user allowed for a particular purpose.

2. I too run a group for our community (kongu vellalars), and we allow persons only after verification. Every community have the right to have their personal space.

3. the term "casteist" is not as bad as it used to be projected in media.. so again no apologetic feeling out of it..


the moderator had said, that other members should not intervene.. but i feel, if other members want to participate, i have no objection.. if i have to opt out, after debate with member "nara", i would accept the same..

 

[kunjuppu]

senthil,

the moderator has asked the rest of us not to intervene only in the sole thread 'the british...'. we hope to discuss with you in other threads. looking forward to this.

 

[anandb]

Shri. Senthil,

Would like to add two relevant quotes here -

James E. McClellan III and Harod Dorn
Science and Technology in World History: An Introduction
The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1999 -

“In recent decades the scholarly study of science and civilization in China has influenced historians concerned with the history of science and technology in India. But, alas, no comprehensive synthesis has yet appeared to match the studies of China”
“Given its technological complexity, India actually underwent an astonishing process of deindustrialization with the coming of formal British rule in the nineteenth century”

Sir Monier-Williams in the Introduction in his
Sanskrit –English Dictionary, 1899

“…The Hindus have made considerable advances in astronomy, algebra, arithmetic, botany, and medicine, not to mention their superiority in grammar, long before some of these sciences were cultivated by the most ancient nations of Europe. Hence, it has happened that I have been painfully reminded during the progress of this dictionary that a Sanskrit lexicographer ought to aim at a kind of quasi-omniscience.

 

[senthil]

Hello Senthil,

Shri Nara has initiated a thread for you to begin the conversation: The Britis are to blame

Regards.

Sir... in that case, i will reproduce my postings in the new thread

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri sangom,

It is a real pleasure to read your point-by-point thorough response. We both know we share common view on most issues, but not in total sync on all issues, Astrology being one topic where we have different views. So, while I have the utmost of respect for you, it is not out of any personal loyalty that I say, your contribution to intelligent and forthright debate is unparalleled, and IMO, no one even comes close. I wish I can emulate you at least in keeping my emotions in check, for I know I can never hope to match your erudition.

[FONT=&quot]FYI, when India had to pledge its gold in 1991 so as not to be labelled a “pauper” country, the then PM made an appeal to all NRIs (POI status was not existent then) in response to which NRI remittances showed a sudden increase; [/FONT]

If I may say so myself, I also purchased a few of these bonds at a time when our assets were quite meager. For better or worse, I feel animated more about India than U.S. So, to shut people like me from commenting on Indian affairs is unfair bordering on mean.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Nara said -

If I may say so myself, I also purchased a few of these bonds at a time when our assets were quite meager. For better or worse, I feel animated more about India than U.S. So, to shut people like me from commenting on Indian affairs is unfair bordering on mean.

Purchasing few of the bonds or even living in India permenantly as a citizen does not give one the right to criticise or interfere with a geniune democratic process. It may be seen as a mean act, I opposed Sri.Nara when he criticised a possible petitioning by caste brahmins requesting a revision on caste based reservation system, to the Government of India. Since Sri.Nara opposed a genuine democratic process, which is naughty I opposed his stand. (Sri.Nara living away from India was not the reason for me though. I live overseas too. Anyone can uphold a democratic process; that's what I did). Even though it may be too complicated for Sri.Nara to understand, caste brahmins living India are still citizens of India in the make up of Indian democracy. If and when a day comes, when Government India openly declares that caste brahmins are not part of the citizens of India, then Sri.Nara's arguments would become valid from that day. But not yet.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Senthil, Greetings!

....I really feel sorry, that he believes that there is nothing in india before britishers..

Alas, your "sorry" is wasted, Shri sangom is not saying what you think he is saying. I am sure he can explain much better than I can, but one thing he is not saying is, there was nothing worthwhile in India before the Britishers came. I feel sorry you read this from his post, and even more sorry if you just made it up.

[.... lot of irrelevant stuff deleted, respect for the ancient Indians is not in question ....]

I request sangom sir and nara sir to take time to read up the references i have given, so that we could debate constructively..

Well, I am not sure what you want to debate. I for one am quite respectful of the achievements of the ancients, be it Indians or from other parts of the world. I am quite proud of the fact some of our ancient forefathers rejected the superstitious nonsense of poorva mimamsa. I am quite proud of the fact the Lord of universal love, Buddha, was of Indian origin. I am proud of the fact Emperor Ashoka attempted to spread Buddha's message of love all over the world. So, when we criticize the narrow ideology of Brahmninism, please don't assume we are criticizing all our ancient forefathers. Speaking for myself, I am quite proud of my forefathers who rejected Brahminism outright.

Sangom sir has said that if western computers and advancement were NOT there, would we have survived in this world?

Huh? Where did he say that? Here is what he said:

"Do you honestly feel convinced that we in India today can survive in this world without the help of all that we have copied from the West, including the computers at my end and yours? Can we discard all these knowledge which we have mostly copied from the westerners and live only with the help of whatever knowledge was bequeathed to us by Dharma Sastras, Kautilya, Ramana maharshi, Deivatthin Kural, Vivekananda, Bharatiar, Thirukkural, Mahabharata, Charaka and Susruta?"
​

This is not what you say Shri sangom is saying, namely, "if western computers and advancement were NOT there, would we have survived in this world?" Please read Shri sangom's statement carefully and you will see he is not saying what you think he is saying at all.

Is it a coincidence that most technological advancements happened in europe, only after they colonised india?

I am not sure what you are getting at with this. Would you please elaborate?

Cheers!

 

[pvraman]

IMO, considering the rate of looting of the natural resources that are taking place now, west has achieved for what they came for. Our own people is much better in doing that right from converting fertile lands into plots.

When I see trucks of sand being taken from river Cauvery for construction jobs, I can not appreciate the progression of infrastructure, I worry how the technology would fulfill people's drinking water need. This is one sample.

regards

 

[nachi naga]

the cultue of usa,is one of amity & happiness,which allows openness in thought speech action.some of the free speech freedom of writing does go overboard,when civil liberties rights do get infringed,but one can always depend upon legal recourses,and law is a functional alive arm of civil society in usa.its speedy and justful,imho.