Culture-some questions

[sravna]

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Sir, if a boy is born with inclinations to be a trader but is forced to take to purohitam just because his father was in the same line, how do you account for inherent varna / occupation by birth.

In anycase, all such explantions are for folks who discuss it...If you go to a dalit basti, you do not find kids who want to be cleaners and scavengers anymore, they want to study and get into good jobs.

And if you ask anyone what business does a priest have or a kshatriya have, to force a dalit to follow the occupation of their forefathers, the answer is NONE.

Dear Happy Hindu,

The larger spiritual context is what is important. But when our underlying beliefs are different there is no point in one trying to convince the other

 

[sangom]

INDIA AND ITS CULTURE

1. First, I would like to clear certain misconceptions. I never shun criticism. But, criticism shall not turn into abuse, virulent attack and in the name of reforms, see only at the darker part of everything.

Dear Shri Pannvalan,

As you may kindly see, "criticize" itself means 'find fault with; express criticism of; point out real or perceived flaws, etc.' Hence, if you are not allergic to criticism you should be prepared to bear with the "darker part" being referred to often. I agree that criticism should not turn into abuse, i.e., using foul or abusive language towards. I don't think the posts in this forum - at least ever since I joined, have become abusive, (though IMO some of the remarks about MK, Tamizh Maanaadu, etc., were not in good taste befitting the standards of a forum of brahmins.). If, however, you want the brighter side (of what? - India and its culture) to be highlighted you may start a separate thread for that purpose with the caveat that no critical remarks should be made in that thread; we will try our best to contribute to that thread also. Here we have a class of threads under "general discussions" and if everyone is to praise something then it will be simple compilation of eulogy, not discussion.

2. I emphatically say that our Indian culture (note, not just Brahminism) has its own shortfalls and deficiencies. But, it is yet far superior to most of the cultures in the present world.

You are still not making your idea clear about what exactly do you mean by the term "Indian culture". To me our culture starts (perhaps) with the primitive tribal people and the customs & beliefs of those cultures, the vestiges of which exist even today among some groups of people, and it comprises everything up to the latest culture of our younger generations of today which includes pop music, western music, ghazals, girls and boys mingling closely, surrogate mothers, in vitro fertilization and a whole host of such modern ways of living which has found acceptance of the people. While it is the duty of every patriotic Indian to swear by the culture of this country, the Constitution also bestows the freedom of speech and expression, which includes polite criticism. I, for one, do not think many aspects of our culture are so eminent.

But each country/civilization has its own culture and each country / group takes pride in it just as we do in ours. In my view there is no culture which can claim to be "superior" to some other culture. Since you seem to hold an opposite view, you should, in all fairness, spell out the reasons based on which you conclude that our culture is superior and also name the other cultures which you deem inferior to ours.

3. While we have ready acceptance for all the inventions and discoveries of the western world, we belittle our scientific, medical, mathematical and astronomical achievements over the past 3 thousand years. We either shut our eyes to them or deride them, because they have no proper explanation and verifiable process, by the western standards.

It is true that our achievements are not always highlighted or praised except some things like zero, decimal system (though Arabs also make a claim to this, there is evidence to show that the Chinese used it as early as the 13th. century B.C., whereas Aryabhatta who first used it, lived in the 6th. century A.D.), etc. That is because many of our inventions or hypotheses became outdated with the rapid progress of western science and its findings. While we try to conveniently blame the foreign invasions for everything, nobody has thought as to why no progress was made in any of the sciences till the eleventh century when Mahmud of Ghazni commenced his bi-annual raids of North India. South India did not experience foreign invasion till the middle of the 14th. century A.D. and there was a solid 700 years (from Aryabhatta's time) for South India to make real scientific progress but it miserably failed. The western industrial (and scientific) revolution started from the late 18th. century and, in about 250 years it has revolutionized the entire world! Even if we take Giordano Bruno (1548-1600) as the starting point, it is only 450 years as compared to the 700 or so years which was available to South Indians to make scientific progress.

4. If some western scientist or philosopher praises some of our findings (e.g. the concept of Zero), we also join them, that's all. Have we ever done a serious study of our own?

Who is this "we"?

5. Unfortunately, majority of the historians (recognized as such) in India today have a leaning towards Marxism or they promote Atheism or Pseudo-secularism (meaning promotion of all religions except Hinduism) and anti-brahminism.

To make a statement covering "majority of the historians" seems to be without any evidence.

7. In the true path of 'spiritualism', India has no parallel in the world.

These are very ambiguous statements, unless it is clarified as to what is "true path", "spiritualism" why India's is the true path, and not those of others, etc. this will require a separate discussion, IMO.

8. The present political dispensation and the bureaucratic set-up at the state and central levels are highly corrupt, inefficient, self-centred and even unpatriotic. Even though they guide the destiny of the nation and its people, they are not permanent and they form only less than 0.01% of my country's population. For their misdeeds and wrong beliefs, I do not want my country and its culture to be attacked.

It is libel (punishable under law) to call "the present political dispensation and the bureaucratic set-up at the state and central levels" as "unpatriotic". Hope this remark does not leak out of this forum.

Even if it is conceded for argument's sake (but not accepted) how do their deficiencies cause the country to be attacked, in the first place, and its culture also to be attacked.

Shri. Pannvalan, kindly explain.

9.As Raghy has said bracketing Vivekananda with EVR is incorrect and insulting Vivekananda and the like.

While each one of us may have his / her opinion about different personalities and hold some of them in high esteem but not some others, IMO, both Vivekananda and EVR were bitter critics of several aspects of hinduism, each in his own inimitable style. Hence the similarity.

10. In the name of reviewing and remedying, we shall not condemn and reject everything that constitute our culture.

Can you cite some examples of "our culture" (again the use of that enigmatic word which is like the unknown quantity in Algebra) which were condemned or rejected "in the name of reviewing and remedying" in this forum? Kindly cite the posts nos also instead of giving some vague answer.

11. In turbulent times, jettisoning is alright and acceptable, but suggestion for abandoning or sinking the vessel itself is never acceptable.

This is like the old "sutra" style of statement. Pl. elucidate "turbulent times", "jettisoning", what is it / are those, that may be jettisoned, etc.

12. I am very confident that the soul of 'Bharat' is intact, in spite of the happenings outside. Therefore, to treat some external maladies, attempts made to destroy the soul are to be resisted. (I am sure, as someone has mentioned, none could succeed so far in this direction during the past 1500 years).

Again, some enigmatic pronouncements. What is the "soul of Bharat"? Are you referring to some particular religion, religious practice, group of people (like villages and villagers to which Gandhiji used to refer) or something supernatural just as we refer to an individual's soul?

14. India attained independence only 63 years ago, whereas Britain, USA and France attained total independence from internal despotism or external forces, long back. I am sure, we will surpass these nations in terms of education, scientific advancements, strong military might, economic progress and wealth, mineral wealth, space missions, poverty eradication, good infrastructure, health and transport and telecommunication, in a few decades hence. (If not 2020, it will be by 2050). Let us have patience till then.

This optimism about future goes contrary to your own judgement of our governance contained in item 8 above, I feel.

15. The whole world order is changing and changing for the better. In another 100 years, the world order would have changed topsy-turvy, but in a positive sense.

An integral part of change is "discarding the old and accepting the new" as otherwise, there will be no change; do you agree?

16. I am sure, if others agree or not, NRIs/POI lose their right of criticism of Indian culture, beyond certain point, especially when they have no intention of returning to India for permanent settlement. Their umbilical cord has already been severed and except for some brief visits to this country once in a blue moon, what interest shall theyhave to rewrite the history of our nation?
17. Those who want to implement some sweeping reforms, first come back and begin the job yourself here. Do not shout from the other shores.

I will (have to) obey if the Indian Parliament passes a law to this effect. Till then all NRIs/POIs are not only Indians but they give us the US $ needed for our daily bread, petrol and all that will be required for your prophesy at item 14 to materialize. (Let us not kill the goose that lays the golden egg!!) In that way they are the earning members of this household called India and so they have a better right to tell us what to do and what not to do, just as the father - the sole income-earner in a family in not so recent times - had the final say in everything including whom the children should marry. They may shout or send e-mails but they are entitled. You are free not to hear!

18. Finally, I would ask, tell me honestly, how much of your writings has contributed positively except for finding fault with the present? I wish to know the exact percentage of positive inputs vis-à-vis the criticism or even condemnation made by you. Expression of mere concern will not cut the ice.

Pl. address the question to yourself first and tell us how much of your writings have contributed to the progress of the nation. It seems you fail to perceive the positive inputs alongside the criticisms. Perhaps you do not want to.

I concur with the observation made by Kunjuppu that changes, corrections and reforms must come from within and I am sure, they will come from within.

How? If every one sings paeans how change will come "from within"?

 

[pannvalan]

Indian culture

Reply attached

 

[anandb]

While playing this game of East blames West and vice-versa thing and we acting as judges in the whole process, I came across this beautiful piece rendered by Sri Aurobindo on 15th August, 1949 which is so relevant even today.

Fourth Dimension Inc. - Towards Integral Management

 

[happyhindu]

Am doing a copy-paste of REPLY TO SANGOM attachment of Shri Pannvalan so that all can read and there is no hassle of downloading replies each time (esp for those with slow internet connection). Shri Pann had included his previous post's points in red most of which i deleted as it was making the post too long. And I made put Shri Sangom's points in quotes to which Shri Pann replied in pink (i made them bold since the font color he used was pink and not comfortable for reading). Posting in 2 parts due to word limit.
​

Dear Shri Pannvalan,
As you may kindly see, "criticize" itself means 'find fault with; express criticism of; point out real or perceived flaws, etc.' Hence, if you are not allergic to criticism you should be prepared to bear with the "darker part" being referred to often. I agree that criticism should not turn into abuse, i.e., using foul or abusive language towards. I don't think the posts in this forum - at least ever since I joined, have become abusive, (though IMO some of the remarks about MK, Tamizh Maanaadu, etc., were not in good taste befitting the standards of a forum of brahmins.). If, however, you want the brighter side (of what? - India and its culture) to be highlighted you may start a separate thread for that purpose with the caveat that no critical remarks should be made in that thread; we will try our best to contribute to that thread also. Here we have a class of threads under "general discussions" and if everyone is to praise something then it will be simple compilation of eulogy, not discussion.

Dear friend,
Criticism in literary context is alright, But, what I referred to was passing caustic remarks and denouncing, condemning and rejecting something outright. This needs no further explanation.
I shall illustrate this with a piece of poem.
“Do not believe and accept something
only because of the reason that
every other person has done so;
Similarly,
do not denounce or condemn something
only with a view to project yourself
as someone different from all others”.

You are still not making your idea clear about what exactly do you mean by the term "Indian culture". To me our culture starts (perhaps) with the primitive tribal people and the customs & beliefs of those cultures, the vestiges of which exist even today among some groups of people, and it comprises everything up to the latest culture of our younger generations of today which includes pop music, western music, ghazals, girls and boys mingling closely, surrogate mothers, in vitro fertilization and a whole host of such modern ways of living which has found acceptance of the people. While it is the duty of every patriotic Indian to swear by the culture of this country, the Constitution also bestows the freedom of speech and expression, which includes polite criticism. I, for one, do not think many aspects of our culture are so eminent.

But each country/civilization has its own culture and each country / group takes pride in it just as we do in ours. In my view there is no culture which can claim to be "superior" to some other culture. Since you seem to hold an opposite view, you should, in all fairness, spell out the reasons based on which you conclude that our culture is superior and also name the other cultures which you deem inferior to ours.

I feel very sorry that I have been compelled to explain the definition of Indian culture here. Even high school kids know what it is.

First, our hoary past. Secondly, our moral conscience. Thirdly, our copious literature and neethi sastras as told by our ancestors. Next, our typical family set up and its merits and advantages. Fifthly, our respect to our elders, masters/teachers/gurus. Sixth, our hospitality (entertaining the athithis). Next, our genius in mathematics, astronomy, medicine and surgery and so on. In administration, there are so many works like Kautilya’s Artha Sastra, Mahabharatha or Thirukkural which deal with public administration. In administration of justice, ditto. Indians are known for their excellent saving habit and thrift (Savings in the country did not get much affected, even when the rate of interest on various investment instruments fell to 5.50% - the lowest I have ever seen – in 2003 from 13% in 1999).

Lastly, in spite of so many scams and crimes happening before us, because of lethargy, connivance and corruption of persons at the helm of affairs, people are by and large, peaceful, honest and law abiding.

It is true that our achievements are not always highlighted or praised except some things like zero, decimal system (though Arabs also make a claim to this, there is evidence to show that the Chinese used it as early as the 13th. century B.C., whereas Aryabhatta who first used it, lived in the 6th. century A.D.), etc. That is because many of our inventions or hypotheses became outdated with the rapid progress of western science and its findings. While we try to conveniently blame the foreign invasions for everything, nobody has thought as to why no progress was made in any of the sciences till the eleventh century when Mahmud of Ghazni commenced his bi-annual raids of North India. South India did not experience foreign invasion till the middle of the 14th. century A.D. and there was a solid 700 years (from Aryabhatta's time) for South India to make real scientific progress but it miserably failed. The western industrial (and scientific) revolution started from the late 18th. century and, in about 250 years it has revolutionized the entire world! Even if we take Giordano Bruno (1548-1600) as the starting point, it is only 450 years as compared to the 700 or so years which was available to South Indians to make scientific progress.

Because of internecine quarrels and fragmentation of the country into small and tiny provinces, resources were limited and the administrative machinery did not follow uniform standards everywhere and people at grass-root level lost their voice and power, our progress was halted. Moreover, this was the period, in Indian History, proper documentation of events was not done for the posterity.

Pann: If some western scientist or philosopher praises some of our findings (e.g. the concept of Zero), we also join them, that's all. Have we ever done a serious study of our own?
Sangom: Who is this "we"?

‘We’ indicates the collective Indian populace.

To make a statement covering "majority of the historians" seems to be without any evidence.

People like Romila Thapar and his coterie in Indian History Congress and also persons like Max Muller distorted the Indian history to suit their ideologies.

Pann: In the true path of 'spiritualism', India has no parallel in the world.
Sangom: These are very ambiguous statements, unless it is clarified as to what is "true path", "spiritualism" why India's is the true path, and not those of others, etc. this will require a separate discussion, IMO.

I request you to go through works of latest origin – Deivathin Kural by Kanchi sage, Bharathi’s works, Ramana Maharishi’s teachings, Swami Vivekananda’s speeches and writings will enlighten you on this subject.

 

[happyhindu]

Contd..

It is libel (punishable under law) to call "the present political dispensation and the bureaucratic set-up at the state and central levels" as "unpatriotic". Hope this remark does not leak out of this forum.

Even if it is conceded for argument's sake (but not accepted) how do their deficiencies cause the country to be attacked, in the first place, and its culture also to be attacked.

Shri. Pannvalan, kindly explain.

Different scandals like Bhopal, Bofors, Babri Masjid, Harshad Mehta, Bhupen Dalal, Commonwealth Games-2010, Spectrum 2G allocation, espionage activities of an Indian woman from Indian Embassy, for Pakistan etc. will corroborate what I have written. See the degree of punishment given to Bofors (Indian) officials. What happened to Afzal Guru? Why are we silent on Chinese aggression and threats? Why we could not make even our small neighbours like Bangladesh or Nepal or Burma listen to our sane voice? Why shall we cede Kashmir (POK) to Pakistan? Why we could not respond properly to Nov.2008 Mumbai attacks?

While each one of us may have his / her opinion about different personalities and hold some of them in high esteem but not some others, IMO, both Vivekananda and EVR were bitter critics of several aspects of hinduism, each in his own inimitable style. Hence the similarity.

I disagree with you on this.

Pann: In the name of reviewing and remedying, we shall not condemn and reject everything that constitute our culture.
Sangom: Can you cite some examples of "our culture" (again the use of that enigmatic word which is like the unknown quantity in Algebra) which were condemned or rejected "in the name of reviewing and remedying" in this forum? Kindly cite the posts nos also instead of giving some vague answer.

Please go through the last 20 posts of this thread itself.

Pann: In turbulent times, jettisoning is alright and acceptable, but suggestion for abandoning or sinking the vessel itself is never acceptable.
Sangom: This is like the old "sutra" style of statement. Pl. elucidate "turbulent times", "jettisoning", what is it / are those, that may be jettisoned, etc.

India is slowly progressing in the recent past, say during the last 15 years only. Chinese are cleverly encircling us from all directions by establishing/strengthening their bases in Srilanka, Tibet, Nepal, POK, Pakistan etc. We are unable to stop their military incursions. Even the anticipated assistance and support from USA after Mumbai attacks have not come.

Pann: I am very confident that the soul of 'Bharat' is intact, in spite of the happenings outside. Therefore, to treat some external maladies, attempts made to destroy the soul are to be resisted. (I am sure, as someone has mentioned, none could succeed so far in this direction during the past 1500 years).
Sangom: Again, some enigmatic pronouncements. What is the "soul of Bharat"? Are you referring to some particular religion, religious practice, group of people (like villages and villagers to which Gandhiji used to refer) or something supernatural just as we refer to an individual's soul?

‘Soul of Bharat’is its cultural and spiritual identity.

Pann: India attained independence only 63 years ago, whereas Britain, USA and France attained total independence from internal despotism or external forces, long back. I am sure, we will surpass these nations in terms of education, scientific advancements, strong military might, economic progress and wealth, mineral wealth, space missions, poverty eradication, good infrastructure, health and transport and telecommunication, in a few decades hence. (If not 2020, it will be by 2050). Let us have patience till then.
Sangom: This optimism about future goes contrary to your own judgement of our governance contained in item 8 above, I feel.

I wish to recall the words of George Bernard Shaw here.
He once said, “Most of the ailments get cured in spite of doctors’ medicines/treatment”. In a similar vein, India is making progress in spite of the major hurdles it is facing in every sphere. If you carefully study the trajectory of economy, advancements made in science and technology, huge growth in I. T., Banking and Infrastructure, we Indians have achieved significant progress.

Pann: The whole world order is changing and changing for the better. In another 100 years, the world order would have changed topsy-turvy, but in a positive sense.

Sangom: An integral part of change is "discarding the old and accepting the new" as otherwise, there will be no change; do you agree?

Instead of discarding, we have to build upon or reinforce. Discarding or demolishing will not help.

Pann: I am sure, if others agree or not, NRIs/POI lose their right of criticism of Indian culture, beyond certain point, especially when they have no intention of returning to India for permanent settlement. Their umbilical cord has already been severed and except for some brief visits to this country once in a blue moon, what interest shall they have to rewrite the history of our nation?

Sangom: No comments made.

Pann: Those who want to implement some sweeping reforms, first come back and begin the job yourself here. Do not shout from the other shores.

Sangom: I will (have to) obey if the Indian Parliament passes a law to this effect. Till then all NRIs/POIs are not only Indians but they give us the US $ needed for our daily bread, petrol and all that will be required for your prophesy at item 14 to materialize. (Let us not kill the goose that lays the golden egg!!) In that way they are the earning members of this household called India and so they have a better right to tell us what to do and what not to do, just as the father - the sole income-earner in a family in not so recent times - had the final say in everything including whom the children should marry. They may shout or send e-mails but they are entitled. You are free not to hear!

For your information, the foreign inward remittances constitute just 6 percent of our forex inflows.

Pann: Finally, I would ask, tell me honestly, how much of your writings has contributed positively except for finding fault with the present? I wish to know the exact percentage of positive inputs vis-à-vis the criticism or even condemnation made by you. Expression of mere concern will not cut the ice.
Sangom: Pl. address the question to yourself first and tell us how much of your writings have contributed to the progress of the nation. It seems you fail to perceive the positive inputs alongside the criticisms. Perhaps you do not want to.

It is for others to judge.

Pann: I concur with the observation made by Kunjuppu that changes, corrections and reforms must come from within and I am sure, they will come from within.
Sangom: How? If every one sings paeans how change will come "from within"?

Changes do not come from by restricting oneself to criticism or passing strictures. Changes stem from conscious and orgainsed efforts of many leaders from various spheres – social, educational, legal, economical, religious and external affairs. They will stay for long for the common good of the country.
I pray the Almighty for a bright future to our nation.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Happy Hindu,

The larger spiritual context is what is important.

What is spiritual to you may not be spiritual to others..

But when our underlying beliefs are different there is no point in one trying to convince the other

Perfectly said. So there is no point in trying to convince the dalits that they MUST follow the professions of their ancestor. Case closed.

 

[kunjuppu]

Sri.Kunjuppu said -



Sri.Kunjuppu, Greetings. Ramasamy Naicker incited and encouraged voilence against one group of people when he said 'பார்ப்பானையும் பாம்பையும் ஒரே நேரத்தில் பார்த்தால் பார்ப்பானை அடி'. Grouping Sri.Vivekanananda and Sri.Narayana guru with Ramasamy naicker does not seem right. I don't think you are doing justice to Sri.Vivekananda and Sri.Narayana Guru.

Cheers!

raghy,

thank you for your observation. maybe i can explain.

first of all, i gather, that there is no issue with both vivekananda & narayana guru. both of whom, in their own way, knocked the strong walls of casteism. i do not know how much they succeeded.

vivekanada, i think, has been usurped by the tamil brahmins, atleast in tamil nadu, watered down to remove all his references to the evils of casteism, and only his call to unite Hindus absorbed & broadcasted, and that too, with implicit understanding, that under TB leadership. so, i think, today, Viveka has no influence in tamil nadu. or in much of india for that matter.

narayana guru, did his bashing of casteism, in an inclusive manner and did not upset the mindset of the hindu castedom of kerala as evidenced by the nairs & namboodris. i would say, that though he gave dignity and upliftment to the ezhavas, he did not quite remove the stigmas of casteism.

periyar. periyar was periyar in his own inimitatble way. he was crude, abrupt, but to the point. i agree that most times, he did not quite see the difference between brahmins and brahminism. but when history is written, a 100 years from now, periyar will be remembered. it is not for nothing, that every caste in tamil nadu, other than brahmins, feel they owe periyar, something, for in his own way, he enabled the other castes to throw away their mental shackles, feeling of inferiority and above all gave them dignity.

had periyar not done what he did, i think, more and more of tamils would have deserted hinduism. so i believe in his own way, periyar saved tamil hinduism. now with the sense of hope and upward mobility of other tamil castes, you find that these too, become part of the establishment, and ultimately take ownership of a culture, which hitherto, the brahmins claimed and held on to their claim.

raghy, it is all in the mind. as a tamil brahmin, i would have no reason to like periyar. but as a tamil hindu, in the interest of tamil tribes, i would love periyar in every respect. periyar himself has said, to his followers, not to follow him blindly, not to accept all his teachings, but to filter and take only what is suitable and applicable.

now in 2010, with more than 40 years of dravidian rule, periyar's tenets may be dated. but for the first 2/3 of twentieth century periyar was a potent leader against casteism. he won.

 

[happyhindu]

Shri Pannvalan,

Some questions:

[FONT=&quot]Pann: If some western scientist or philosopher praises some of our findings (e.g. the concept of Zero), we also join them, that's all. Have we ever done a serious study of our own?
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sangom: Who is this "we"? [/FONT]
Pann:‘We’ indicates the collective Indian populace.

On what basis did you decide this (on your own) for the collective Indian populace ?

[FONT=&quot]Pann: In the true path of 'spiritualism', India has no parallel in the world. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sangom: These are very ambiguous statements, unless it is clarified as to what is "true path", "spiritualism" why India's is the true path, and not those of others, etc. this will require a separate discussion, IMO. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Pann: I request you to go through works of latest origin – Deivathin Kural by Kanchi sage, Bharathi’s works, Ramana Maharishi’s teachings, Swami Vivekananda’s speeches and writings will enlighten you on this subject.[/FONT]

But Vivekanand denounced the caste system (or not?). Forget Vivekananda, and all. What do you think about the caste system?

Instead of discarding, we have to build upon or reinforce. Discarding or demolishing will not help.

So you are essentially saying caste system must be reinforced? Please can you be clear (kindly elaborate further).

For your information, the foreign inward remittances constitute just 6 percent of our forex inflows.

I do not know about others, but i send moeny to india for various purposes atleast few times a year.

[FONT=&quot]Sangom: Pl. address the question to yourself first and tell us how much of your writings have contributed to the progress of the nation. It seems you fail to perceive the positive inputs alongside the criticisms. Perhaps you do not want to.[/FONT]
Pann: It is for others to judge.

Sir, do you mean to say others feel your writings are contributing to the progress of the nation?

Changes do not come from by restricting oneself to criticism or passing strictures. Changes stem from conscious and orgainsed efforts of many leaders from various spheres – social, educational, legal, economical, religious and external affairs. They will stay for long for the common good of the country.

And the common good of the nation wud be to take forward hinduism without the blemishes of the caste-system of the old. And conscious efforts start with discussions about it. And while we are discussing there are also folks acting upon it to ensure 'dalits' also get bursaries to study, etc. So it not just talk. We need not wait for "leaders".

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Happy Hindu,

The larger spiritual context is what is important. But when our underlying beliefs are different there is no point in one trying to convince the other

sravana,

not sure what you mean. but this is the way i understand it.

i gather that you believe: that there is a purpose, a higher purpose towards moksha of one's soul, for why we are born into a particular caste.

take two castes: brahmins - to you being born brahmin is a burden for there is a lot lying on the shoulders of the Brahmin. Never mind the fact, that today’s Brahmins have shed all those burdens, and merrily go about earning money and enjoying comforts. This is wrong. If you are born a Brahmin one should stick to study of the Vedas (much like the muslim mullahs), stick to priesthood, and maybe extend this to secular teaching in schools (not colleges) for this is the true vocation of upadhyayams and vajapayees.

I agree with you here. I am only termed as a Brahmin because the government of india, terms me one, because of the caste my parents were born. Though I am really pained that you absolve the current day Brahmins of all their responsibilities towards religion, but appear (I may be wrong here) to uphold their position as the top of the hindu hierarchy.

The argument for the dalits goes in reverse. They too have a purpose, you say. Whatever it may be, they too appear to have abandoned their pre destined professions, and (just imagine) aspire to be doctors and lawyers. Now Brahmins have never, in the Vedas, been prescribed to be doctors and lawyers and engineers. Why do we get so upset if there is reservation and positive governmental efforts to uplift the dalits?

Is it because they are committing a crime per manu smriti for crossing their line of demarcation? But then Brahmins have done the same, have we not? We are no more saintly and would it not be hypocritical for us to point fingers at dalits or other castes, when we have thrown away the mantle of vedic learning to uphold the mantle of the mammon.

Personally, I see nothing wrong in our pursuit of money and comfortable life. After all, it intrinsically acknowledges the fact, that even though we may be pre occupied by the next world, we do not consider it that important to hinder our pursuit of pleasure and comfort in this world. This is better, I think, than blindly believing in the 101 virgins waiting for us in heaven, and blowing ourselves up with dozens of innocents to keep us company. N’est pas?

 

[sangom]

i gather that you believe: that there is a purpose, a higher purpose towards moksha of one's soul, for why we are born into a particular caste.
...

The argument for the dalits goes in reverse. They too have a purpose, you say. Whatever it may be, they too appear to have abandoned their pre destined professions, and (just imagine) aspire to be doctors and lawyers. Now Brahmins have never, in the Vedas, been prescribed to be doctors and lawyers and engineers. Why do we get so upset if there is reservation and positive governmental efforts to uplift the dalits?

Is it because they are committing a crime per manu smriti for crossing their line of demarcation? But then Brahmins have done the same, have we not? We are no more saintly and would it not be hypocritical for us to point fingers at dalits or other castes, when we have thrown away the mantle of vedic learning to uphold the mantle of the mammon.

Dear Kunjuppu,

I think Sravna's justifications or explanations are very abstruse. But basically he wants to defend the chaturvarnya system with a lot of freedom for the brahmin alone to preach to others without practising it himself!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

To me vedas seem very coherent, sensible and also intuitively very appealing to a large extent because I think it tries to see what is beneath the surface. It gives a more profound interpretation of the external world and how an individual is related to it.

My knowledge of vedas is not extensive especially compared to that possessed by some of our members in this forum. But even a limited though fundamental knowledge of it makes me strongly believe that the ancient seers had no malicious or biased interests. Nor did they lack in wisdom. All that they said and did I think was for the general well being of all and for a harmonious existence within the larger framework of concepts such as karma etc.,

The problem is that, to someone who does not believe in these theories and who goes only by evidence and direct observation these may seem far-fetched and not describing reality. So when you see the varna system in isolation stripping off its larger spiritual context it would seem vulnerable to attack by the rationalists.

But when you think that the essence of Hinduism is that it says you to perfect your mind, is enough substance for me to put my belief in it wholeheartedly.

 

[praveen]

A request to all members:-

The reply by Mr. Senthil Raja was only for Nara and it is not something that others need to get involved and debate on its merits or demerits.

I have already extended the invitation to him to join us. Both Nara and Him can then sort it out publically either in this thread or in a new thread. I would only request the others to be a spectator and not get involved in a private (public) conversation between 2 individuals. Ofcourse if someone does participate, it will be subject to heavy moderation.

 

[sangom]

Dear friend,

Criticism in literary context is alright, But, what I referred to was passing caustic remarks and denouncing, condemning and rejecting something outright. This needs no further explanation. I shall illustrate this with a piece of poem. “Do not believe and accept something only because of the reason that every other person has done so; Similarly, do not denounce or condemn something only with a view to project yourself as someone different from all others”.

Dear Pannvalan,

I am sure you do not mean to say that only literary criticism is allowed (in this forum), since we rarely consider literature in the topics in this group. I am not able to also identify what you refer to as "denouncing, condemning and rejecting something outright". So, unless you are prepared to spell out clearly what is irking you, and the specific post, I don't think there is any point in discussing this point.

I feel very sorry that I have been compelled to explain the definition of Indian culture here. Even high school kids know what it is.

First, our hoary past. Secondly, our moral conscience. Thirdly, our copious literature and neethi sastras as told by our ancestors. Next, our typical family set up and its merits and advantages. Fifthly, our respect to our elders, masters/teachers/gurus. Sixth, our hospitality (entertaining the athithis). Next, our genius in mathematics, astronomy, medicine and surgery and so on. In administration, there are so many works like Kautilya’s Artha Sastra, Mahabharatha or Thirukkural which deal with public administration. In administration of justice, ditto. Indians are known for their excellent saving habit and thrift (Savings in the country did not get much affected, even when the rate of interest on various investment instruments fell to 5.50% - the lowest I have ever seen – in 2003 from 13% in 1999).

Lastly, in spite of so many scams and crimes happening before us, because of lethargy, connivance and corruption of persons at the helm of affairs, people are by and large, peaceful, honest and law abiding.

As you can very well see, my concept of "our culture" (meaning Indian culture) is different from yours. That is why I wanted you to spell out your idea/s clearly. Instead of doing so politely, you have resorted to sarcasm, condemning me for not having even a High School kid's knowledge. It seems you have your own rules for yourself whereas for others you apply a different yardstick!

Since you, sitting on a high pedestal, have tried to paint me as a nincompoop, I am constrained to give the views on what all definitions the word "culture" is given and then judge for yourself whether I am worse than a high school kid.

1. The word culture comes from the Latin root colere (to inhabit, to cultivate, or to honor). In general, it refers to human activity; different definitions of culture reflect different theories for understanding, or criteria for valuing, human activity. Culture is traditionally the oldest human character, its significant traces separating Homo from australopithecines, and Man from the Animals, though new discoveries are blurring these edges in our day. (Culture - Definition)

2. Although there is no standard definition of culture, most alternatives incorporate the Boasian postulates as in the case of Bates and Plog's offering, which we shall accept as a working version:

Culture: The system of shared beliefs, values, customs, behaviours, and artifacts that the members of society use to cope with their world and with one another, and that are transmitted from generation to generation through learning (p7). (A Definition of Culture)

3. Culture (from the Latin cultura stemming from colere, meaning "to cultivate")[1] is a term that has various meanings. For example, in 1952, Alfred Kroeber and Clyde Kluckhohn compiled a list of 164 definitions of "culture" in Culture: A Critical Review of Concepts and Definitions.[2] However, the word "culture" is most commonly used in three basic senses:

* Excellence of taste in the fine arts and humanities, also known as high culture
* An integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for symbolic thought and social learning
* The set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group
(Culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

4. [uncountable] activities involving music, literature, and other arts: [countable/uncountable] a set of ideas, beliefs, and ways of behaving of a particular organization or group of people.
(culture - definition of culture, by Macmillan Dictionary: Free English Dictionary Online and Thesaurus.)

5. When you're talking about "organizational culture", remember to check that you are all conversing about the same thing. People may use the word culture to mean any of these:

1.
National / ethnic culture:
The group assumed to be site of child's primary socialization -- "THE Latvian culture," "THE African-American culture." In the U.S. this is usually the assumed meaning of culture, and people revert to this narrow view of culture out of habit, even when you may have been quite explicit about defining culture more broadly than this.

2.
Secondary or subgroup culture:
cultural groups we've been socialized into: Organizational culture, professional culture, manager culture, Muslim culture, peer culture, prison culture, nerd culture and so on.

3.
Culture in the anthropological sense
-- the meanings and behaviors groups of people develop and share over time.

4.
Capital C Culture:
the high arts of theater, painting, music, etc., or a superior upbringing.
(What is "Culture"?)

6. “Culture is one of the two or three most complicated words in the English language”1, writes Raymond Williams. It is certainly hard to define culture in any other languages too. There is as many definitions of the word as there are authors who wrote about it, many of them giving different definitions from one book to another. Dictionaries, general or specialised, also offer their own defitions of the word culture.

The word of course evolved throughout the years, changing to embrace many different concepts. A good start in English is to refer to the inevitable book by Raymond Williams: Keywords – A vocabulary of culture and society2. In French, Philippe Bénéton's Histoire de mots: culture et civilisation3 is the reference to know more about the evolution of the word culture.

The goal is not to offer the definite documentation file about culture, but to give a short list of definitions scattered around many books and articles. Even though the list is quite short, it shows the impressive diversity of definitions given to culture and how the word has many different meanings depending on the author and his/her discipline. The list is indexed alphabetically by author's names.
English Definitions
“In anthropology, the integrated system of socially acquired values, beliefs, and rules of conduct which delimit the range of accepted behaviors in any given society.”

– Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th edition.


...to be continued

 

[sangom]

“[T]he cultural life of the nation, the intellectual and emotional engagement of the people with all forms of art, from the simplest to the most abstruse.”

– United Kingdom Government, Department for Culture, Media and Sport, Government and the Value of Culture (May 2004).


“I use the terms culture and art interchangeably to cover man-made artifacts or performances that move us and expand our awareness of the world and of ourselves.”

– Tyler COWEN, In Praise of Commercial Culture, Cambridge (MA)/London, Harvard University Press, 2000, p. 5.


“In the end, culture is everything that can be shared.”

– Nancy DUXBURY et Rowland LORIMER, “Of culture, the economy, cultural production, and cultural producers: an orientation“, (1994) 19 Can. J. of Comm. 259, 261.


“Culture here means a body of artistic and intellectual work of agreed value, along with the institutions which produce, disseminate and regulate it.”

– Terry EAGLETON, The Idea of Culture, Malden (MA), Blackwell, 2000, p. 21.


“Culture can be loosely summarized as the complex of values, customs, beliefs and practices which constitute the way of life of a specific group.”

– Terry EAGLETON, The Idea of Culture, Malden (MA), Blackwell, 2000, p. 34.


“Culture is just everything which is not genetically transmissable (sic).”

– Terry EAGLETON, The Idea of Culture, Malden (MA), Blackwell, 2000, p. 34.


“Alternatively, you can try to define culture functionally rather than substantively, as whatever is superfluous to a society’s material requirements.”

– Terry EAGLETON, The Idea of Culture, Malden (MA), Blackwell, 2000, p. 36.


“In other words, culture was simply what was distinctive about others.”

– Jonathan FRIEDMAN, Cultural Identity and Global Process, London/New Delhi/Thousand Oaks (CA), Sage Publications, 1994, p. 67.


“t understands to cover the whole range of practices and representations through which a social group’s reality (or realities) is constructed and maintained.”

– John FROW, Cultural Studies and Cultural Value, New York, Clarendon Press/Oxford, 1995, p. 3.


“[D]efined as the production and circulation of symbolic meaning.”

– Nicholas GARNHAM, Capitalism and Communication – Global culture and the economics of information, London/New Delhi/Thousand Oaks (CA), Sage Publications, 1990, p. 155.


“A culture is a way of doing things and a way of reflecting on what we do.”

– John Hutcheson, «The thief of arts – Will free trade rob us of our culture», The Canadian Forum (Toronto), février 1987, p. 9.


“Culture in the study of international relations may be defined as the sharing and transmitting of consciousness within and across national boundaries, and the cultural approach as a perspective that pays particular attention to this phenomenon.”

– Akira IRIYE, “Culture and international history“, in Michael J. HOGAN et Thomas G. PATERSON (dir.), Explaining the History of American Foreign Relations, Cambridge/New York, Cambridge University Press, 1991, p. 215 and Akira IRIYE, “Culture“, (1990) 77 J. Amer. Hist. 99.


“The culture of a society is the whole complex of knowledge and beliefs and attitudes and practices which are embodied in the society, and in its social, political and economic arrangements.”

– Albert Wesley JOHNSON, “Free trade and cultural industries“, in Marc GOLD et David LEYTON-BROWN (dir.), Trade-Offs on Free Trade – The Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement, Toronto, Carswell, 1988, p. 350.


“I understand culture to be rooted in the shared knowledge and schemes created and used by a set of people for perceiving, interpreting, expressing, and responding to the social realities around them.”

– John Paul Lederach, Preparing for Peace – Conflict transformation across cultures, Syracuse (NY), Syracuse University Press, 1995, p. 9.


“[T]he way of life of any society.”

– Ralph LINTON, The Cultural Background of Personality, New York, Appleton-Century-Crofts, 1945, p. 19.


“It refers to the total way of life of any society, not simply to those parts of this way which the society regards as higher or more desirable.”

– Ralph LINTON, The Cultural Background of Personality, New York, Appleton-Century-Crofts, 1945, p. 30.


“[T]he social heredity of a society’s members.”

– Ralph LINTON, The Cultural Background of Personality, New York, Appleton-Century-Crofts, 1945, p. 32.


“A culture is the configuration of learned behavior and results of behavior whose component elements are shared and transmitted by the members of a particular society.”

– Ralph LINTON, The Cultural Background of Personality, New York, Appleton-Century-Crofts, 1945, p. 32.


“Culture is the expression of human values. It may be very intense and conscious, as in art objects and performances or religious practice. It may be pervasive and relatively unconscious, in the rituals of food, the use of time or family celebrations. It embraces the extremes of this spectrum and everything between. Culture is everything we don’t have to do to survive – but are compelled to do to feel human.”

– François MATARASSO, “Culture, economics & development“, in F. MATARASSO (dir.), Recognising Culture – A series of briefing papers on culture and development, London, Comedia/Canadian Heritage/Unesco, 2001, p. 3.


“Culture is that which individuals, groups and societies produce and acquire in order to function effectively.”

– Roland Robertson, Globalization – Social theory and global culture, London/New Delhi/Thousand Oaks (CA), Sage Publications, 1992, p. 40.


“[A]ll those practices, like the arts of description, communication, and representation, that have relative autonomy from the economic, social, and political realms and that often exist in aesthetic forms, one of whose principal aims is pleasure.”

– Edward W. SAID, Culture and Imperialism, New York, Vintage Books, 1994, p. XII.


“What we need to understand is not what culture is, but how people use the term in contemporary discourses.”

– John Tomlinson, Cultural Imperialism – A critical introduction, London/New York, Continuum, 2001, p. 5.


“Culture or civilization, taken in its wide ethnographic sense, is that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society.”

– Edward Burnett TYLOR, Primitive Culture: Researches into the Development of Mythology, Philosophy, Religion, Art, and Custom, The Collected Works of Edward Burnett Tylor, vol. 3, London, Routledge/Thoemmes Press, 1994, p. 1.


“Where culture meant a state or habit of the mind, or the body of intellectual and moral activities, it means now, also, a whole way of life.”

– Raymond WILLIAMS, Culture and Society 1780-1950, London, Chatto & Windus, 1958, p. XVIII.


“[C]ulture is a state or process of human perfection, in terms of certain absolute or universal values.”

– Raymond WILLIAMS, The Long Revolution, London, Chatto & Windus, 1961, p. 41.


“[C]ulture is the body of intellectual and imaginative work, in which, in a detailed way, human thought and experience are variously recorded.”

– Raymond WILLIAMS, The Long Revolution, London, Chatto & Windus, 1961, p. 41.


“[T]he independent and abstract noun which describes the works and practices of intellectual and especially artistic activity.”

– Raymond WILLIAMS, Keywords – A vocabulary of culture and society, revised ed., New York, Oxford University Press, 1985, p. 90.

“This seems often now the most widespread use: culture is music, literature, painting and sculpture, theatre and film.”

– Raymond WILLIAMS, Keywords – A vocabulary of culture and society, revised ed., New York, Oxford University Press, 1985, p. 90.

(Towards a Definition of Culture)

7. the quality in a person or society that arises from an interest in and acquaintance with what is generally regarded as excellence in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.

(The Randon House Dictionary)

Hope you will now understand why I asked you and realize that the word culture does not stop with a High School Text Book definition or lesson.

My comments on the remaining points will follow.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Kunjuppu said -

periyar. periyar was periyar in his own inimitatble way. he was crude, abrupt, but to the point. i agree that most times, he did not quite see the difference between brahmins and brahminism. but when history is written, a 100 years from now, periyar will be remembered. it is not for nothing, that every caste in tamil nadu, other than brahmins, feel they owe periyar, something, for in his own way, he enabled the other castes to throw away their mental shackles, feeling of inferiority and above all gave them dignity.

Sri.Kunjuppu, Greetings. Ramasamy Naicker had no idea about 'brahminism'. He just jumped on caste brahmins; his followers literally jumped on caste brahmins, while the persons following brahminism continued their practices without any hinderences. In effect, Ramasamy Naicker provided the perfect cover for the persons following brahminism while he diverted the victims against the caste brahmins. That is the most important setback, no one likes to address. Due to Ramasamy Naicker's diversion techniques, caste based atrocities and discriminations continue even today. Such discriminating peope while still following brahminism, belong to MBC castes, reap reservation rewards too. What dignity? Did you see the movie India untouched? Do you call that dignity?

had periyar not done what he did, i think, more and more of tamils would have deserted hinduism.

That is only a speculative opinion. Ramasamy Naicker never asked anyone to stay in the Hindu fold. On the contrary, he actually asked them to leave the Hindu fold (I don't actually remember the meeting; but he actually asked everyone to join Islam or Budhhism..I am not sure which religion, for sure).

now with the sense of hope and upward mobility of other tamil castes, you find that these too, become part of the establishment, and ultimately take ownership of a culture, which hitherto, the brahmins claimed and held on to their claim.

Brahmins did not claim ownership to Tamil culture. Tamil culture was held mostly by the Saivaites and later on shared also by Srivaishnavas. That is my understanding anyway.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

...
The reply by Mr. Senthil Raja was only for Nara and it is not something that others need to get involved and debate on its merits or demerits.

Dear Praveen,

I am happy to carry on a discussion with Mr. S Raja in any reasonable and neutral format.

This whole affair seemed strange so I looked up the blog and public comments of the blog entry. Lo and behold I found the following.

Dear Mr.Senthil Raja,

I am the one who is responsible for giving a link to your blog in tamilbrahmins.com.
I have made a posting in tamilbrahmins.com tendering my apologies to you for linking your blog in the forum. I have also informed in the same posting that I am withdrawing from the participations in the forum till justice is done to you and Late Sri Dharmapal.

Please send an email to me in the above so that we can get in touch with each other.
I am a Gandhian and is involved in rural development projects during my spare time. I want to learn a lot from you on the British rule and the damages done to our country during their rule.

Thanks, regards and best wishes,

RVR

(emphasis mine)
​

I do not remember any apologies or any withdrawal from the forum. This seems like a calculated move to cause trouble, what one could call சிண்டு முடியறது. Difference of opinion is getting escalated into the realm of vendetta and revenge -- clearly untrue statements are being made about our forum elsewhere.

I look forward to a discussion with Mr. S. Raja. Truth that come out in the discussion may cause hurt to some folks here. If you are of the sensitive type for whom truth causes hurt I request you to keep away from my posts. If you find drawn to the discussion but still feel hurt, please direct your ire at me directly in the open, that is the least you could do. Please do not hide behind anonymous innuendos.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

dear sangom :

what a wonderful and honest reply in your above post.nri,pio are as much Indian like any domicile Indian residing in India.I did have to reconcile to the fact,that aamerican/australian/canadian/malaysian etc citizen has no RIGHT to pontificate to Indians,which i have graciously undergone a transformation of sorts,as i now believe pio even though not a indian citizen,but very much loves/cares for Indians and their unique culture,which is changing very much like the western culture is.

superb post from you,sir.

 

[nachi naga]

dear pannavalan ayya :

Changes do not come from by restricting oneself to criticism or passing strictures. Changes stem from conscious and orgainsed efforts of many leaders from various spheres – social, educational, legal, economical, religious and external affairs. They will stay for long for the common good of the country.
I pray the Almighty for a bright future to our nation.

i join you with the above sentiment expressed by you.I want India to have the best comforts in life,with modern technological advances involving all spheres of life.In this American's can contribute quiet a bit,and they are doing it as well.USA is number one trading partner for India.

 

[nachi naga]

k,

it is not for nothing, that every caste in tamil nadu, other than brahmins, feel they owe periyar, something, for in his own way, he enabled the other castes to throw away their mental shackles, feeling of inferiority and above all gave them dignity.

periyar belonged to my dad's generation,not mine.but what irked me was,after having darshanam of lord anjaneyar swami temple in front of kanchi kamakoti peetham,i found an idol or bust and an inscription,that those who believe in god are fools.i went so mad but NOT nearly mad to break the bust and then go inside shankara mutt of kanchi.when i told my mama-thatha i want a crowbar to destroy the bust outside in front of kanchi mutt,he forbade me and instead took me to mahaswamigal and made me sit in front of the holy sage/saint.after a long few hours mahaswamigal gave me uttaravu to leave for chennai.so,whenever periyar name is talked about,i immediately visualise my mahaswamigals shraddha & saburi in dealing with my pent up anger.

 

[nachi naga]

kala-charam

kala = art , time ,black in hindi..etc

charam = a way

artful way=kala-charam=cult-ure

cul = from kala

ture = a way

so culture is basically from samnskritham not popularly known as from latin.latin again is from samnskritham,imho

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

To me vedas seem very coherent, sensible and also intuitively very appealing to a large extent because I think it tries to see what is beneath the surface. It gives a more profound interpretation of the external world and how an individual is related to it.

My knowledge of vedas is not extensive especially compared to that possessed by some of our members in this forum. But even a limited though fundamental knowledge of it makes me strongly believe that the ancient seers had no malicious or biased interests. Nor did they lack in wisdom. All that they said and did I think was for the general well being of all and for a harmonious existence within the larger framework of concepts such as karma etc.,

The problem is that, to someone who does not believe in these theories and who goes only by evidence and direct observation these may seem far-fetched and not describing reality. So when you see the varna system in isolation stripping off its larger spiritual context it would seem vulnerable to attack by the rationalists.

But when you think that the essence of Hinduism is that it says you to perfect your mind, is enough substance for me to put my belief in it wholeheartedly.

Sravna,

this is a typical of your posts based on your own assumptions of what "you think" is advaitha, or hinduism, or varna system and so on..

caste-system comes from dharmashastras. Dharmashastras are not part of the vedas.

 

[Nara]

Culture: The system of shared beliefs, values, customs, behaviours, and artifacts that the members of society use to cope with their world and with one another, and that are transmitted from generation to generation through learning (p7). (A Definition of Culture)

Dear Shri sangom, Dr. Bhabasaheb Ambedkar used this definition of culture to argue that the Varna system of Hinduism does not allow a common culture to develop. Each Varna and subcaste has its own cultural tradition, some aspects of which are benign and others not so. At the extremes, the culture of Dalits is so completely alien to the Brahmins and other FC NB followers of Brahminism.

The achievements of ancient Indians are made possible by all Indians, either directly, or indirectly. It is the toil of Dalits that provided the leisure for the elites to engage in intellectual pursuits. These achievements belong to all Indian, including the ones who criticize Hinduism or Brahminism.

Criticism of Brahminism is not a criticism of all cultures of Bharath. In fact, criticism of Brahminism is an Indian tradition, most ancient of them being the Lokayatas and Buddists. So, I reject the claim that any criticism of Hinduism/Brahminism is anti-Bharath.

Also, this notion that those who do not live in India have no right to criticize is a complete canard. Anyone with an interest can criticize. The validity of a criticism is not a function of the geographical location of their home. Shutting down voices based on this geographical location criterion goes against the Rg vedic dictum that welcomes noble thoughts from all sides. To welcome noble thoughts all thoughts must be let in first.

Thank you sir for all the erudite posts, I appreciate them all.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

I find it strange that some people in this forum are averse to others own views while being unrestrained in presenting their views.

Is there any standard interpretation of Hindu philosophy or any of its school of thoughts such as advaita? The intent of the commentators was to present a coherent picture of the disparate and seemingly contradictory utterings However they dealt it at a spiritual level only Explanations and justifications were rarely offered though they tried to establish the validity of their arguments. The actual realities such as the existence/power of maya were, however to be taken on faith. This was ok till Science and technology began to take roots.

With the ascendancy of Science and Technology which adopted a see-it-yourself way of establishing the truth, the more-removed-from-physical reality explanations of Hinduism began to fall out of favor even among then Hindu intellgentsia. Science and Technology overwhelmingly succeeded because of the approach it followed. You get to see the results.

But this is exactly what Hinduism cautions us against. What you see through your physical senses and the not fully evolved mind is not the reality. Don't fall for them. All the effects are nothing but unreal.

Sankara, Ramanuja and other great figures of our past were quite successful , atleast during their times in getting across their thoughts at a spiritual level.
However their commentaries as they stand , themselves need interpretations in light of the knowledge we have acquired through Science , I would add mainly because to show that Science is only an impartial understanding of the world and can never become a complete understanding as long as logic caters only to physical observations.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sravana said -

What you see through your physical senses and the not fully evolved mind is not the reality.

Sri.Sravana,

Greetings. I was following your conversation with Sow.Happy Hindu and Sri.Sangom with interest.What I am about to write is not a part of any such conversations.

What we see in this world is real; what we touch, we see, we feel are all real. What we have in the bank is real. Our children, family, neighbours, home, town, country..everything is real. Our qualification is real. Our education is real.

So, what is Maya? Maya is 'I', 'Mine', 'Our', 'Us' etc. My body touches the computer, pecking away the message; my body is drinking the coffee; .....all this 'my' and 'I' are just the body. One day this machine will stop. We won't be able to take anything with us; 'our children', 'our family' and friends will stay behind.

We came here empty handed; we will leave empty handed. All the things in between are Maya. It is like a computer role play game..we need all the things to fulfil the purpose in the game; once the 'game over', all the things gets reset.

Cheers!