Controversial Suggestion...Brahmin-Christian Alliance!

[maruti]

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Dear Friends,

We are the oppressed and the abused. No matter what we do, we are the bad guys. All atrocities are blamed on Brahmins, even as the world conveniently ignores Mughal/Brit atrocities and the like. It's always 'caste this, caste that.' Politicians hate us, media is against us, and even fellow Hindus refuse to consider our concerns lest they should lose the benefits that come from caste and similar considerations. Either we have enemies, or we have people indifferent to our concerns.:shocked:

What are we to do?

THE SOLUTION

The only way we can succeed is by influencing political decisions in our favor. Unfortunately, that's not possible because we are a small population. We need alliances.

I see the following steps as necessary for our survival:

****ALIGN WITH CHRISTIANS****

This may sound controversial, but it's beneficial just the same. Christians have:

a) Money

b) Control over media

c) Political clout

Brahmins and Christians can strike a deal. Christians need converts, and Brahmins need the above three. In return for financial assistance, pro-Brahmin news and views in the media and pro-Brahmin political decisions, Brahmins can offer to bring as many converts into Christianity as possible. It's a win-win situation for both of us.

OBJECTIONS TO THIS ALLIANCE
The common objections are as follows:

Objection #1 CHRISTIANITY IS A FANATICAL RELIGION? WHY ALIGN WITH FANATICS?

Answer: First of all, are we in a position to choose? Tactical alliances are based on necessities, not on principles. Second, are Hindus so pure and perfect? Where were our fellow Hindus (non-Brahmins), when governments implemented caste reservations? Did any non-Brahmin ever protest? When some desperate Brahmin students burned themselves, how many non-Brahmins came forward to support us?

Please do NOT misconstrue this as an attack on non-Brahmins. I am simply trying to show that non-Brahmins are as helpless as Brahmins, when it comes to preventing or protesting atrocities perpetrated on Brahmins. It's human nature to ask: what's in it for me? That being the case, why would non-Brahmins stick their necks out and jeopardize their chances, by supporting Brahmins? They wouldn't. And that's why Brahmins should abandon hopes that help may come from our own community. It won't, it never will, due to the aforementioned reasons.

And if help doesn't come from 'our own people', what are we to do, aside from crying and complaining? Choose another friend, another ally, who's willing to help. They may have ulterior motives for offering help, but who doesn't? This ain't a perfect world.:lever:

Objection #2 WE CANNOT BETRAY 'OUR OWN PEOPLE.' WE CANNOT HATE THEM.

Answer: We must NEVER hate anyone, much less our own people. Because I call myself Brahmin and fight for my rights and freedoms, does that necessarily mean I hate non-Brahmins? There is no question of hatred for fellow Hindus, regardless of castes or what else not. We don't hate them. We simply ignore them, because they're of no use to our cause. And that is NOT hatred.

As regards betrayal, we've been betrayed by non-Brahmins in almost every state. Non-Brahmins throughout India have formed alliances with Muslims, Buddhists and others to fight Brahmins.

WHAT OF BETRAYAL FROM THEIR SIDE?

Even with respect to non-political issues, just look around India, and you'll see non-Brahmins of various hues and colors, including Dalits, Ambhedkarites, Shudras, OBCs, SC/ST, neo-Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs (even moderates, not Khalistanis), and many others spewing venom on the Brahmins. And mind you, it may not even be for political reasons, or some such practical matter. They have a blind hatred for Brahmins, period.

Naturally, if one reasons that we shouldn't betray fellow Hindus, what about these Hindus betraying us over and over? calling us names? blaming us for caste atrocities? advertising it to the world in the form of documentaries/books and defaming us? Is this not betrayal on their part? Is it acceptable?

DESPERATE SITUATIONS CALL FOR DESPERATE MEASURES

Further, Brahmins are a tiny population fighting for survival. And yet, we shouldn't betray 'our own people' even out of desperation, whereas 'our own people' can betray us, is that it? How reasonable is that?

Again, if one argues that it's only a small population amongst non-Brahmins that hates us, then what's stopping the other half from preventing it? Is it due to indifference? fear? Whatever it is, the Brahmins are at the receiving end, and no one's doing anything about it. At the end of the day, that's how it looks.

Objection #3 WHY NOT BRAHMIN-NON BRAHMIN ALLIANCE?

Answer: I wish it were that easy! A and B align, if and only if A and B can taste profits from the venture. No alliance is possible without mutual profits. Brahmins and fellow Hindus (read non-Brahmins) cannot unite, because such unity will destroy the very system that gives non-Brahmins various benefits, not the least of which is reservation. Why would they care about Brahmins, when they can benefit socially, economically, politically, by hating Brahmins? Why indeed?

Christians, on the other hand, have an axe to grind. Despite investing huge amounts, they've failed to convert large number of people and therefore, they're desperate to gain converts through cost-effective means. This is where Brahmins can play a crucial role. Christians can divert their money and muscle power to pro-Brahmin activities, doing which Brahmins can convert as many people as possible to Christianity. This is possible, because Brahmins are great intellectuals and teachers, and unlike evangelists, are great orators and can convince and convert lay people with sheer force of logic.

Objection #4 DUE TO THIS ALLIANCE, WILL WE NOT LOSE 'OUR OWN PEOPLE' TO ANOTHER RELIGION?

Answer: Not really. The people who leave our fold are anti-Hindu anyway. Suppose MK converts to Christianity, are you gonna shed tears that we've lost a Hindu to another religion? Some people are Hindus in name only, they are actually Semitic in thought and action, thereby explaining their bigotry and blind hatred for certain sections, particularly Brahmins. So who cares if they remain within Hinduism, or convert out of it?

Objection #5 THE BRAHMINS ARE SUFFERING BECAUSE THEY ABUSED LOW CASTES. Isn't it therefore judicious to sink differences with low castes, rather than seek friendship elsewhere?

Answer: This is actually a myth perpetrated by secular historians. The low castes and the rest conveniently ignore the atrocities committed by Mughals, Turks, Brits on their people. But they harp on alleged Brahmin atrocities. I say alleged, because there's no evidence that Brahmins killed or violated people under the pretext of caste supremacy. They simply didn't have the power to do so.

The Portuguese invaders used to rape and murder people belonging to all castes, not just Brahmins. How come the downtrodden never talk about that? Or, did the Mughals only kill Brahmins? Did they never touch low castes? Of course, they did, but we never hear about those things, do we? It's always the Brahmin abusing the low caste for centuries upon centuries, even though there's no proof for any of this.

With this background, is it really possible to sink differences? It's tantamount to apologizing for sins I didn't even commit. Why should the Brahmin feel guilty about events that never took place? And if non-Brahmins can't even acknowledge this truth, how is it possible to seek friendship with them? Non-Brahmins are ok with Muslim atrocities which are recorded in history, but they're terribly upset over Brahmin atrocities which never took place. How is it possible to trust such people and form an alliance with them?


IN CONCLUSION

There is much more, but I'll continue it another time. In this post, I've covered the objections. In the next, I'll cover the advantages of this alliance. As of now, this should suffice. I know this idea sounds controversial for most people, but please don't react irrationally. Please don't attack me for suggesting this. We've tried every method under the sun, and we've failed. So it's only reasonable that we consider not-so-appealing ideas, such as an alliance with Christians to save ourselves.

Despite our staunch support for Hindu Dharma, we are attacked by people from our own religion. If they don't care about us, then it's time to say goodbye to such people and seek new friends.

 

[hariharan1972]

Fraught with Danger

Maruti,

Since you yourselves have mentioned that it's a controversial suggestion, i will refrain from discussing on those lines. My perspective is as under :

a) The original role which was conceived for Brahmins was that of a "Guru". True that in today's practical world all of us cannot perform that role. Even if we cannot "lead", we would do well not to "mis-lead".

b) While the purpose of this forum is to ensure the 'survival' of the Brahmin community, i feel it is not to be achieved by 'extinguishing' our 'core' values.

c) We should strive to get our 'rightful share' in the socio/economic structure in our country by rightful means and not by adopting 'ettapan' (back stabber) ways.

d) If you look at the real scenario, in today's dog-eat-dog world, i think there is not enough time for any one to 'practice' discrimination. Despite the hold on the masses, the DMK/DK/PMK leadership & their views on 'Brahmins', i would like to believe are in a minority. A majority of our Non Brahmin brethren are 'right thinking' and carry no overt hatred against Brahmins. So we shouldn't do anything which will earn us more enemies than friends.

e) I think your suggestion doesn't consider the situation in other states. TN's case is different because demographically OBC is the dominant population.

f) Also if Brahmins are in the forefront of such an unholy alliance, it is quite possible that the already casteist Christianity will get more casteist & again we will be bearing the "cross".

g) Christian Evangelists are doing just fine in "converting" india & i feel there is no need to add "fuel to fire".

h) I strongly feel that one of the strong pillars of Hinduism is Brahmins & if we rock the boat then it could signal the beginning of the end for Hinduism. If our house is pest infected, then the way is to 'fumigate' and not to 'burn the house down'.

i) I strongly feel that our perspective on anything should be in the order of - Country - Hinduism - Community. Putting the community ahead of everything would mean that we are no different from other sectarian/narrow minded people of our society.

j) I am not sure that we will be able to insulate ourselves from 'conversions' if we are in the forefront. It requires the discipline of a bar owner who doesn't drink. Even if he doesn't drink, he is not exactly seen doing any noble cause to the society.

Finally in a lighter vein, i am not sure how many of us will enjoy saying - "Adiye (feminists excuse, just for the effect !!), kshetha aaatha paarthukko, naan sha(ch)urchukku poyittu deebaradhanai kaatittu vandudaren...swamikku wine um vennaiyum ready dhane" !!!!!

 

[Brahmanyan]

Interesting but impossible suggestion. But there is an interesting alliance taking place in UP. It is between the Brahmins and BSP. UP is the only State which has sizable Brahmin votes to dictate terms. The lady leader of BSP understood this and offered already Party Posts to Brahmins and assured that BSP will put more Brahmin candidates in the ensuing elections to the Assembly. The results of the union are to be seen only after the Elections there. I am giving this news for information only.

 

[gurumurthyji]

Controversial Suggestion...Brahmin-Christian Alliance

Why partiality Sir ? Let us include Muslims also in the merger and coalition game. They are also big in numbers and fit in to all the criteria you put forth. We have one side Aalwars (vaishnawas) and the other side Naayanmars (Saivites). Let us slowly start making Christians in to naayanmars and muslims in to Aalwars. Slowly …slowly..Sir. Then we will gain numbers, power, paisa, ete. etc. Take the credit of solving the terror problems also. Allah Aalwar & Jesus Naayanmar How is that ?

 

[fire]

Even I had some thoughts like this. If we go to Christianity altogether like other some people do , I guess many other people will follow the suit.We may think these selfish politicians can not target us easily.But the point is , there is no point in leading just materialistic life. If thats the case there wud be no Vivekanandas,no Ramana, No Gandhi ,No Bhagat Singh etc. Only there will be JJ,MK,Veeramanis and the jalras who target the week for oportunistic values. Keeping the dharma (moral justice i can say) is important wherever u are,whatever u do , whatsoever u earn.We shud set our mind on that value first and strive. We will get our position soon.

 

[Sangeetha]

I agree with fire. There is something blissful beyond this mechanical and materialistic life. Being Brahmins, we can spiritually strive to achieve our goals. I mean using the Mind Power and Intellect the Dale Carnegie way(our saastras requoted). Brahmins are bestowed with the power of easy Siddhi compared to other communities owing to our descent from great Rishis. Its for us to properly utilise it. We can do group meditation with a cause and for a cause. Thoughts are more effective than actions. The frequency of our thought waves are more intense.

I suggest we members of tamilbrahmins.com set a particular time in a week and all meditate or pray for half an hour or so. Let us decide the common cause, date and time(IST) beforehand and meditate or pray on that. Let us all take part and bring back the lost glory to our community the Dharmic way...:thumb:

Mr.Administrator, I request you to consider this.

Regards,
Sangeetha.

 

[maruti]

I agree with fire. There is something blissful beyond this mechanical and materialistic life.
Regards,
Sangeetha.

Sure thing, but we need to be practical as well. Or, why this forum? As Brahmins, we have to be spiritual, no doubt. But as humans, we have to survive, hence the need for tactical alliances.

 

[maruti]

A majority of our Non Brahmin brethren are 'right thinking' and carry no overt hatred against Brahmins. So we shouldn't do anything which will earn us more enemies than friends.

If right thinking non-brahmins are the majority, then how come they don't speak up for us brahmins? Why can't they control the minority? Or, is it because they LIKE to turn a blind eye?

Bottom line, non-brahmins may not hate us, but they will never speak up for us. Which means, brahmins have to look elsewhere for friendship.

 

[gurumurthyji]

Controversial Suggestion...Brahmin-Christian Alliance! Reply to Thread

Oh ! come on Mr.Maruthi !! in the name of searching friends out side you can’t take us direct to Christians alone. There is one more group called Muslims also already in waiting. In fact they have the first right for everything as is recently conceded by our PM.. But these two groups do also have many groups within. So no guarantee that they will continue to help you? Suppose they also start looking else where like our own friends where else we can look? At least our own friends belief system is the same like ours. But this new groups belief system itself is on the foundation of intolerance. So is it not better to give up our individual desertion idea? Allow our own friends to help us and share as a team the joy of bringing piece of true love and humanity in to this world. Will you...Maruthi the savior, teach us how to live?
GURUMURTHYJI

 

[sarathy]

hindu fold

why not create a HINDU FOLD?
when temple entry is given to all , why not all who enter temple protect hindus against aethists,DK,RATIONALISTS,politicians,timeservers.
bramins are threatened and others exploit bramins and temples.
let us maintain our tradition , differences and community practices as culture and part of indology.its time we bring out a strong hindu fold.
GPS

 

[sarathy]

hindu fold

let us try to mobilise HINDU fold maintaining our tradition.
do not allow anybody to interfere with hindu religious practices in the name of rationalism,pagutharive,samathuvam,thanmanam...
untouchability and temple entry have entered in constitution!
what more do you need.
GPS

 

[kabali]

why not we tamil brahmins purchase some island and move there?

 

[vijay]

A good thought

though i am a RSS supporter,i always like evangelists,because they mostly convert OBC,SC,ST.these people r brainwashed & made anti-brahmin by politicians.

I HAD READ THAT SOMETIMES PERIYAR SPOKE LOFTILY ABOUT ISLAM.WHEN A SUPPORTER ASKED Y HE HAD NOT CONVERTED TO ISLAM,HE TOLD,"IF I CONVERT I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO ATTACK HINDUISM AS I AM ABLE TO DO IT NOW,BECAUSE PEOPLE WOULD CONSTRUE IT AS RELIGIOUS FANATICISM".

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO HINDUISM BY THE YEAR 2100AD--A WILD GUESS

so if anti-brahmin people were converted only upper castes (nearly 20 crores ) would remain as hindus & by then christians &muslims would be 50% & 30% each(approx.)we might have struggle &get a country for ourselves with the help of UN or others

 

[Shanti Brahm]

The Dark Age

I actually have the view that RSS and BJP are anti-Brahman. Whatever they say for political expediency is one thing, but they are actually against true Brahmanism.

The RSS and BJP try to "create" history, not discover it. There is a Truth, and this is the miracle that is buried in our past. It has been lost due to many conquerers such as the Muslims and English. Both Muslims and Chirstians try to re-write history for the sake of their faith.

That is fine for them. That is because they are FAITH based religions. This is not the case of Brahminism. Brahminism is a TRUTH based religion. It is a search for TRUTH and enLIGHTenment, not a religion based on developing FAITH for SALvation.

Therefore, a brahmin must keep himself pure and develope detachment when he observes the world. Detachment means not projecting or creating more MAYA in the world but to see things as they are without the projections of the mind.

We need more pure Brahmins to study the Brahmin literature and sacred texts. An entire culture and way of life is disappearing, and the few survivors are grasping at "politicians" and "christians" to save the true LIGHT of hinduism. We are certainly living in a DARK age.

If we are looking for allies, let us look to the west. Not to Christians but to western hindus. Many of them are quite impressive, being able to quote Shastras, Brahmanas, and Upanishads with a flair unequelled by us contemporary followers who were born into the faith. Some are not so impressive, full of New Age ideas that are insane and some are just drug junkies.

The TM movement, Hare Krishna Movement, Sivinanda Yoga among other Yoga movements, Swami Dayananda Saraswati and many Vendanta gurus, etc have brought the Hindu tradition to the west since the early days of Swami Vivekananda and the Theosophical Society.

Many of these Western Hindus are natural allies to the Brahmins of India as they are more eager to learn from them and have a deeper respect for Brahminism in general then our own people of the east.

 

[maruti]

:bump2:

Discuss this most interesting idea again!

 

[Chintana]

On alliances with other religious groups

First of all, let me commend the posters for being calm about their views about controversial topics such as these.

Just for the record, this forum will indulge in no such alliances (I mean with Christians or Muslims).

I'd highly encourage views that build the community from 'within'.

As to Maruti's views that spirituality is independent of practicality, I wish to disagree. If one's spiritual compass is sharpened one begins to fine tune one's intuition, leading to practical solutions that are right in that situation. Spirituality is empty if it is not applied to practical situations. To think that it cannot be applied to material conditions is to be misinformed.

Shanti Brahm's point has a lot of merit in it and it may not be impossible for us to align with like-minded people who respect us. But we need to give ourselves an identity, as a group of people who stand for somethings (by implication do not stand for other things) before anything like that can happen.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Chānakya (Sanskrit: चाणक्य) (c. 350-283 BC) was adviser and prime minister[1] to the first Maurya Emperor Chandragupta (c. 340-293 BC), and architect of his rise to power.
Kautilya and Vishnugupta, the names by which the political treatise Arthaśhāstra identifies its author, are traditionally identified with Chānakya.[2]

When sailing in unchartered seas, keep Arthasastra by your side.

Did he not preach, adversary to your adversary is your ally ?

First of all, let me commend the posters for being calm about their views about controversial topics such as these.

Just for the record, this forum will indulge in no such alliances (I mean with Christians or Muslims).

I'd highly encourage views that build the community from 'within'.

As to Maruti's views that spirituality is independent of practicality, I wish to disagree. If one's spiritual compass is sharpened one begins to fine tune one's intuition, leading to practical solutions that are right in that situation. Spirituality is empty if it is not applied to practical situations. To think that it cannot be applied to material conditions is to be misinformed.

Shanti Brahm's point has a lot of merit in it and it may not be impossible for us to align with like-minded people who respect us. But we need to give ourselves an identity, as a group of people who stand for somethings (by implication do not stand for other things) before anything like that can happen.

 

[maruti]

Just for the record, this forum will indulge in no such alliances (I mean with Christians or Muslims).

May I ask why? Is it because you're against the very concept of alliance?

Spirituality is empty if it is not applied to practical situations.

Isn't this contradictory? If there's nothing separating S and M, there will be one entity and one entity only, and the other will become false.

But we need to give ourselves an identity, as a group of people who stand for somethings (by implication do not stand for other things) before anything like that can happen.

We've been doing that for the last hundred years. What have we achieved, aside from more abuses, more hurdles, more oppression.....?:twitch: If a certain method doesn't work for hundred years, isn't it wise to abandon it and seek another?

 

[kashyap]

I agree with fire. There is something blissful beyond this mechanical and materialistic life. Being Brahmins, we can spiritually strive to achieve our goals. I mean using the Mind Power and Intellect the Dale Carnegie way(our saastras requoted). Brahmins are bestowed with the power of easy Siddhi compared to other communities owing to our descent from great Rishis. Its for us to properly utilise it. We can do group meditation with a cause and for a cause. Thoughts are more effective than actions. The frequency of our thought waves are more intense.

I suggest we members of tamilbrahmins.com set a particular time in a week and all meditate or pray for half an hour or so. Let us decide the common cause, date and time(IST) beforehand and meditate or pray on that. Let us all take part and bring back the lost glory to our community the Dharmic way...:thumb:

Mr.Administrator, I request you to consider this.

Regards,
Sangeetha.

These are the kind of thoughts that inspire me and make me feel so happy and thankful to God for having placed me in this community.

 

[kashyap]

Even I had some thoughts like this. If we go to Christianity altogether like other some people do , I guess many other people will follow the suit.We may think these selfish politicians can not target us easily.But the point is , there is no point in leading just materialistic life. If thats the case there wud be no Vivekanandas,no Ramana, No Gandhi ,No Bhagat Singh etc. Only there will be JJ,MK,Veeramanis and the jalras who target the week for oportunistic values. Keeping the dharma (moral justice i can say) is important wherever u are,whatever u do , whatsoever u earn.We shud set our mind on that value first and strive. We will get our position soon.

With such noble thoughts I am sure we have great hope for our community.

 

[Chintana]

Answers to your questions

My responses to your questions are in maroon italics.

May I ask why? Is it because you're against the very concept of alliance?

I didn't mention that this forum is against the very concept of alliance. I specified that we are not interested in aligning ourselves with other religious groups. In fact I mentioned that Shanti Brahm's views on alliances sounded interesting.


Isn't this contradictory? If there's nothing separating S and M, there will be one entity and one entity only, and the other will become false.

There is one thing that does separate spirituality and materiality, i.e., the human power of discrimination. When this discrimination is honed and made powerful (our spiritual traditions are oriented toward that) decisions in the material realm become a breeze. Ask any serious meditator; s/he will vouch for this.

And just for the record, there is nothing wrong in believing there is one entity - afterall that is what advaitha philosophy is about.


We've been doing that for the last hundred years. What have we achieved, aside from more abuses, more hurdles, more oppression.....?:twitch: If a certain method doesn't work for hundred years, isn't it wise to abandon it and seek another?

Are you suggesting that we have been invested in building our community for the last hundred years? You must be joking! If anything Brahmins have won a reputation for never being able to unite, being too critical of everything and breaking traditional norms left, right and center.

We are discovering now that that method of breaking traditions without building other new ones in place destroys the community. So yes, we are abandoning the method of breaking traditions mindlessly and thinking about how we can reconstruct them for today's living. Through this forum we are hoping to be able to understand how we can uphold at least some of our values in the modern context. We'd like to believe that there is still some hope for the Brahmin community to be able to live with conviction and dignity while being careful not to repeat mistakes of the past.

At the risk of boring others who have already understood this idea, I repeat - we have volunteered to create this website, carve time out of our professional and personal lives to volunteer to serve our community. So we are interested only in those ideas which are going to help us BUILD this community - notions that will help foster a sense of identity, self-respect and RESPONSIBILITY toward the community.

So Maruti, how are you going to help us?

 

[KRS]

Chānakya (Sanskrit: चाणक्य) (c. 350-283 BC) was adviser and prime minister[1] to the first Maurya Emperor Chandragupta (c. 340-293 BC), and architect of his rise to power.
Kautilya and Vishnugupta, the names by which the political treatise Arthaśhāstra identifies its author, are traditionally identified with Chānakya.[2]

When sailing in unchartered seas, keep Arthasastra by your side.

Did he not preach, adversary to your adversary is your ally ?

Dear lotus_quartz Ji,

This is quite thought provoking.

However, I think this dictum applies to one's enemy's enemy as long as they are atleast a milder enemey or neutral towards oneself. In the context of different issues currently transpiring in India, I don't know whether the thesis put forth here about the alliances will work on this basis.

However, it is interesting to note in this context a joint declaration put out by Swami Dayananda Saraswati and the Head Rabbi of Israel about the principle of non interference of the practice of any religion. Essentially the document condemns the principle of conversions.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[mrifan]

Very critical to ask this question

At the risk of boring others who have already understood this idea, I repeat - we have volunteered to create this website, carve time out of our professional and personal lives to volunteer to serve our community. So we are interested only in those ideas which are going to help us BUILD this community - notions that will help foster a sense of identity, self-respect and RESPONSIBILITY toward the community.

So Maruti, how are you going to help us?

It is very critical to ask this question, and I hope this will be asked increasingly in the future. All of us have very busy lives, and the last thing I think we should be doing is spending time being defensive here about Brahmanas. Even if there are only a couple of posts per day with good ideas, the quality of posts would, in my opinion, be more important than the quantity of the posts. The framework of the website and its mission has been established by the moderator. Members should answer the question in the last sentence above, Brahmanas or otherwise. I believe this will make the job of the moderator easier, as well as lead to members spending time productively on this website.

 

[maruti]

My responses to your questions are in maroon italics.

May I ask why? Is it because you're against the very concept of alliance?

I didn't mention that this forum is against the very concept of alliance. I specified that we are not interested in aligning ourselves with other religious groups.

And why not? Jews are a small community, and they align with Christians whenever necessary, even though they're at loggerheads elsewhere. Why can't we learn from the jews how to survive? Why this obsession with principles?

There is one thing that does separate spirituality and materiality, i.e., the human power of discrimination. When this discrimination is honed and made powerful (our spiritual traditions are oriented toward that) decisions in the material realm become a breeze. Ask any serious meditator; s/he will vouch for this.

By the time we reach that level, we'll be history. We need a quick fix, now more than ever, cuz we're in danger.

Are you suggesting that we have been invested in building our community for the last hundred years?

Depends on what you mean by building our community. Other communities don't seem to have that problem, because they're not averse to aligning with members of other castes, races, religions to suppress Brahmins. During the British rule, they aligned with the British scholars to affirm AIT, then use it against Brahmins. This 'marriage of convenience' has been going on forever, and Brahmins have been sidelined consistently on account of that.

Meanwhile, Brahmins have wasted precious time on matters that aren't going to help them in the least. Zero practicality, too much ideology, that's always been the norm. And tragically enough, that's happening even today, despite a number of atrocities against Brahmins.

So Maruti, how are you going to help us?

It's not about one man's help, but rather how Brahmins are going to help themselves. Being a small community, are they going to fritter away their energies on idle talk about principles, traditions etc., and let dravids attack and abuse them for another 100 years or so? Or, will Brahmins get smart and learn from the jews? A small, weak community can never survive, unless it's ably supported by money or muscle power. We lack both, which is why alliances are imperative.

Frankly, I am shocked by the attitude of most Brahmins. When in trouble, we whine and weep. But we never seem to learn from our mistakes, nor do we have what it takes to survive in a cruel world. When the house is burning, we talk of upholding traditions, respecting fellow dravids as our own, shun alliances involving other religions as a matter of principle, and so on. But when dravids get the upper hand through reservations, inter-caste marriages and the rest, we cry and complain. But we're also quick to rationalize that most dravids are good, only the dravid leaders are to blame, not realizing that most dravids silently approve of dravidian agenda, even if they outwardly express shock.

Bottom line, we have very few friends, and dravids certainly don't care for Brahmins, even if they don't hate us. They are part of the problem, NOT JUST THEIR LEADERS, for they vote for them and support their anti-brahmin policies. Which is why we need to seek friends elsewhere.

There is no other solution. Even if members disagree with me, they still cannot provide any radical solution. Most solutions center on 'creating awareness' or 'helping poor brahmins' or whatever, and needless to say, these solutions have never worked.

 

[Chintana]

On Alliances etc.

Responses in maroon italics below.

And why not? Jews are a small community, and they align with Christians whenever necessary, even though they're at loggerheads elsewhere. Why can't we learn from the jews how to survive? Why this obsession with principles?

Jews didn't just start forming alliances with Christians. In fact when they migrated to the US following atrocities against them in Germany, a significant part of the American population did not want them in America. This negative attitude was termed anti-Semitism and it exists in minor traces in America till today.

The Jews got ahead not because they formed alliances with Christians but because they were very keen on helping each and every person within the Jewish community. Eventually they became such a wealthy group and a huge force to reckon with that the Christians in America not only respected them but also needed them. That was how an alliance germinated between the two groups. It was not so much a conscious effort as it was a natural turn of events.

By the time we reach that level, we'll be history. We need a quick fix, now more than ever, cuz we're in danger.

Quick fixes are NEVER a substitute for a vision based strategy. And those necessarily HAVE to be built on principles. The word 'principles' takes several different forms today, the chief of them being 'ethics'.

If quick fixes could serve as survival strategy then corporations today won't be spending the amount of money the spend on developing mission statements, goals, their stance toward corporate social responsibility etc.

Reactive attitudes always keep one in a lower position than those with a proactive attitude.

To not base actions on principles, especially at this stage of our development or any stage for that matter, would be the first step towards disrespecting ourselves. We cannot have that.

Depends on what you mean by building our community. Other communities don't seem to have that problem, because they're not averse to aligning with members of other castes, races, religions to suppress Brahmins. During the British rule, they aligned with the British scholars to affirm AIT, then use it against Brahmins. This 'marriage of convenience' has been going on forever, and Brahmins have been sidelined consistently on account of that.

On an individual level Brahmins don't seem to have a problem 'aligning' themselves or getting along with others. But on a community level they have not paid sufficient attention toward coming together as a single unit.

Other communities have had better strength of numbers and geographical proximity than Brahmins. So their sense of community has always been better than that of Brahmins.

We at this forum are trying to rectify this situation by giving Brahmins a chance to build that community that we never got to build over the last 60-80 years.


Meanwhile, Brahmins have wasted precious time on matters that aren't going to help them in the least. Zero practicality, too much ideology, that's always been the norm. And tragically enough, that's happening even today, despite a number of atrocities against Brahmins.

Simply because someone talks ideology that doesn't mean that person is ineffective. The 'practicality' that you speak of demands that each individual from the community do some little bit on an everyday level. That is what we are trying to encourage here.

Our previous couple of generations pretty much gave up on community building for a variety of reasons (can't get into all of that now). As a result what we have today is a situation where we are picking it up AFTER a gap of a couple of generations whereas in other communities this has been a continuous process.

No one person can have all the answers. To expect so is unrealistic.

We will have to build up bit by bit, patiently. Maybe difficult but not impossible.

This process requires patience. Those that show that required level of patience will perhaps be the first ones to enjoy the rewards and the benefits of this process.



It's not about one man's help, but rather how Brahmins are going to help themselves.

The 'Brahmins' you refer to are all made up of several individuals. So each individual will have to chip in. So it is not about 'one man's help'; it is about EACH MAN's HELP.

Being a small community, are they going to fritter away their energies on idle talk about principles, traditions etc., and let dravids attack and abuse them for another 100 years or so? Or, will Brahmins get smart and learn from the jews? A small, weak community can never survive, unless it's ably supported by money or muscle power. We lack both, which is why alliances are imperative.

First of all, as I have established, talk about principles is not idle. Principles serve as a backbone of the choice one has to make. In fact, they ARE the strength behind actions. No action is as powerful as that powered by conviction. And convictions come from principles.

Alliances are best achieved when one is strong and mature because they involve deals. We are not in a position to do that today. One has to give up something to get something. We are still trying to establish what we have - we have given up so much - and we don't know to whom or for what. There has been too much outflow of all sorts. We are now focused on some inflow.


Frankly, I am shocked by the attitude of most Brahmins. When in trouble, we whine and weep. But we never seem to learn from our mistakes, nor do we have what it takes to survive in a cruel world. When the house is burning, we talk of upholding traditions, respecting fellow dravids as our own, shun alliances involving other religions as a matter of principle, and so on. But when dravids get the upper hand through reservations, inter-caste marriages and the rest, we cry and complain. But we're also quick to rationalize that most dravids are good, only the dravid leaders are to blame, not realizing that most dravids silently approve of dravidian agenda, even if they outwardly express shock.

Oh! the Brahmins on the whole have done pretty well for themselves except for the priests.

I too am shocked by Brahmins' attitudes. But you know which ones?

The intolerance of some of our smartest people towards our less sharper brethern. Some of us don't explain to others why we think a certain way - we expect them to automatically understand. We are content to pass a quick judgment and relegate them to an insignificant part of our social backdrop.

The impatience of some of our capable people in community building which takes time, care, patience and responsibility. Some of us want to see results in a day, not realizing that this effort is an ambitious one and those that get to enjoy the best results of today's efforts may in fact be our children.

The lack of spirituality among some of us (I don't mean rituals, I don't mean traditions, I don't mean any other kind of untested dogma). I mean the art of tapping into our inner potential through a deep sense of inner connection and communion with ourselves. This is a good part of what Karma Yoga teaches us.


Bottom line, we have very few friends, and dravids certainly don't care for Brahmins, even if they don't hate us. They are part of the problem, NOT JUST THEIR LEADERS, for they vote for them and support their anti-brahmin policies. Which is why we need to seek friends elsewhere.

Why should the dravids or anybody else care for us, especially when we can't care about ourselves. How can we expect that of others?

There is no other solution. Even if members disagree with me, they still cannot provide any radical solution. Most solutions center on 'creating awareness' or 'helping poor brahmins' or whatever, and needless to say, these solutions have never worked.

You talk like there is one simple solution to all our problems. You think having an alliance with other religious groups is going to solve our problems? You think they are going to treat us as equals or more than equals and give us the best end of the deal?

Which world are you living in?

We are in the middle of a complicated problem. Or several complicated problems. If the solution to it were as simple as what you suggest then someone would have done it by now already. Despite what we think about our community there are some enterprising people amongst us, who, I am sure would have taken the effort. But that has not happened so far.

So, please recognize that the solution you are proposing is very simplistic. It is so simplistic that it is not a solution at all.