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A controversial Thirumoolar verse

agopal

Active member
From our Well-known member Visalakshmi Ramani's Blog on Thirumoolar's Thirumanthiram I see this possibly controversial verse

#908. திருக்கூத்தின் பயன்கள்

சொல்லு மொரு கூட்டில் புக்குச் சுகிக்கலாம்

நல்ல மடவார் நயத்துடனே வரும்

சொல்லிலும் பாசச் சுடர்ப்பாம்பு நீங்கிடும்

சொல்லும் திருக்கூத்தின் சூக்குமம் தானே.

திருவைந்தெழுத்துத் தியானத்தால் மற்றொரு உடலில் புகுந்து சுகமுறலாம். அழகியர் இத்தகையவரை நயந்து அணுகுவர். இவர் சொல்லலும் சொல்லால் பிறரின் பந்த பாசம் நீங்கி விடும். இவை அனைத்தும் திருக் கூத்தினால் விளையும் பயன்கள் ஆகும்.

The first sentence of this verse means a person Meditating on The Panchakshara Mantra can attain a Siddhi and Enter another living body and Enjoy their enjoyment /bliss. In "Noaendhamizh" it is also called "Koodu-vittu-Koodu payaradhu". Koodu refers to a body. For older generation people, you can reminisce movies with the theme where some bad element enters/places his soul seven mountains + Seven seas away for safe keeping! Modern folks, can relate to "Wargs" from Game of Thrones...
Now, You are a Jivatma with sentience. Isn't that about the Outrageous violation of Privacy / Freedom ever - EVEN if the entering soul is a great Siddha? What gives ANYONE right to enter another's body and enjoy ? Adhi-Shankara entered a "dead" king's body to know carnal pleasures. Agreed. The King was dead.
In your dream state you don't have Freedom. We can relax the rule a bit and say the Siddhas can enter your body during dream state - that is contentious as well.
In deep sleep state it is possibly(?) acceptable.
What do you think?
 

renuka

Well-known member
From our Well-known member Visalakshmi Ramani's Blog on Thirumoolar's Thirumanthiram I see this possibly controversial verse

#908. திருக்கூத்தின் பயன்கள்

சொல்லு மொரு கூட்டில் புக்குச் சுகிக்கலாம்

நல்ல மடவார் நயத்துடனே வரும்

சொல்லிலும் பாசச் சுடர்ப்பாம்பு நீங்கிடும்

சொல்லும் திருக்கூத்தின் சூக்குமம் தானே.

திருவைந்தெழுத்துத் தியானத்தால் மற்றொரு உடலில் புகுந்து சுகமுறலாம். அழகியர் இத்தகையவரை நயந்து அணுகுவர். இவர் சொல்லலும் சொல்லால் பிறரின் பந்த பாசம் நீங்கி விடும். இவை அனைத்தும் திருக் கூத்தினால் விளையும் பயன்கள் ஆகும்.

The first sentence of this verse means a person Meditating on The Panchakshara Mantra can attain a Siddhi and Enter another living body and Enjoy their enjoyment /bliss. In "Noaendhamizh" it is also called "Koodu-vittu-Koodu payaradhu". Koodu refers to a body. For older generation people, you can reminisce movies with the theme where some bad element enters/places his soul seven mountains + Seven seas away for safe keeping! Modern folks, can relate to "Wargs" from Game of Thrones...
Now, You are a Jivatma with sentience. Isn't that about the Outrageous violation of Privacy / Freedom ever - EVEN if the entering soul is a great Siddha? What gives ANYONE right to enter another's body and enjoy ? Adhi-Shankara entered a "dead" king's body to know carnal pleasures. Agreed. The King was dead.
In your dream state you don't have Freedom. We can relax the rule a bit and say the Siddhas can enter your body during dream state - that is contentious as well.
In deep sleep state it is possibly(?) acceptable.
What do you think?

A Siddha isn't always a "realized soul"sans desires.
Anyone can be a Siddha if they attain Siddha powers through intense tapasya.

The techniques to attain Siddha is a knowledge, once having attained that a Siddha can either use it for the welfare of others or use it to harm others.

In the case above surely the Siddha who enters the body of another clearly shows abuse of Siddha powers and harming another's body make up, living of the energy of another person totally not having any consideration of the possible side effects to the body of the person they are using.
 

Raman74

Member
Such acts were performed by Siddhars for common cause that is healing…


The Incredible Powers of the Ancient Siddhars

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Siddhars are a type of saint in India who are said to have had many powers and achieved a ‘god-like’ state through specific secret practices that were known only to them. These powers spanned from controlling time and space, to transforming the body, manipulating matter at the molecular level and achieving immortality.

The Siddhars were followers of the God Shiva and according to different texts there were 18 of them. Their teachings and findings were written in the form of poems in the Tamil language , a language spoken mainly by people in South India and parts of Sri Lanka. The poems were very difficult to interpret and were written in an encoded way so that only a few could understand them.

There is a debate as to who was the first Siddhar. Some legends talk about Sri Pathanjali , who was considered to be an incarnation of Adiseshan, the celestial five-headed snake associated with God Vishnu. But the prevailing tradition refers to Agasthya (or Agasthyar) as the first Siddhar, one of the seven sages (or Saptarshis) as mentioned in the Vedic texts, and he was the son of the god Brahma of the Hindu creation story. Agathiyar is considered to be the author of a lot of the first Siddhar literature and he was supposed to have lived in the 7 th century BC. About 96 books are attributed to him and that includes writings in alchemy, medicine and spirituality. Apart from the legends that exist, the beginnings of the Siddhars’ are lost in time.



Read more at: https://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-religions/incredible-powers-ancient-siddhars-001447

“பரகாயப் பிரவேசம்” சித்தர்களின் விந்தை மிக்கக் கலை : “கூடுவிட்டுக் கூடுபாய்தல்”

தொகுப்பாக்கம் : இளஞ்சைவப் புலவர் . த.கி.ஷர்மிதன்.


உடல் விட்டு உடல் தாவுதல் : ஒரு உடம்பில் இருந்து இன்னுமொரு உடம்பிற்குள் செல்லல் இதுவாகும். மனிதன், விலங்கு, பறவை, பூச்சிகள் என அனைத்து சரீரத்துள்ளும் பிரவேசம் செய்தல் இதுவாகும். (சூக்கும சரீரம் ஒன்றே. உடல் அமைப்பே வேறு என்பது சித்தர் நிலைப்பாடு)



உடனிருப்போர் உடலுள் சென்று, அவர் மனதை இயக்க விடாமல் செய்தல். இது வெறுமனே ஆழ்மன வசப்படுத்தல் மாத்திரமே.

இ)

தனது உடலினை விட்டு நீங்கி சூட்சும உடலுடன் பிரயாணம் செய்தல். இத்தகு சித்து வாயிலாகவே சித்தர்கள் நினைத்த மாத்திரத்தில் நினைத்த இடங்களுக்குக் கணப் பொழுதில் பிரயாணம் செய்கின்றனர்.


இவ்வாறாக இக் கூடுவிட்டுக் கூடுபாய்தலில் பல படி நிலைகள் உள்ளன எனலாம். உடலை விட்டு உடல் தாவும் சித்தி என்பது மரத்தை விட்டு மரம் தாவும் செயலல்ல. இச்சித்தியைத் தனதாக்க பல தடைகள் தாண்ட வேண்டும். கூடுவிட்டுக் கூடுபாயும் கலை பற்றிய சில அம்சங்களை போகள், சின்ன வாத்தியார் போன்ற தமிழ் சினிமாக்கள் தொட்டுச் சென்றுள்ளமையும் இங்கு குறிப்பிடற்குரியது.

பரகாய பிரவேச மந்திரம் – Sattaimuni Nathar – Siththarkal – Sithargal – Sithar

தன் உடலைப் பற்றிய ஞானம் அவசியம். இயல்பு தத்துவம் தெளிவாகத் தெரிந்திருத்தல் வேண்டும்.

சரீர தத்துவங்கள் 96 குறித்து அறிந்திருக்க வேண்டும். சித்தர்கள் தெளிவாக அறிந்திருந்தனர்.

அண்டத்திலுள்ளதே (உலகத்தில் உள்ளதே) பிண்டத்திலும் (உடலிலும்) உண்டு என்பதைத்

தெளிய வேண்டும். உலகம் பஞ்ச பூதங்களால் ஆனது. அவ்வாறே மனித உடலும் பஞ்ச பூதங்களால் ஆனது என்பதை அறிய வேண்டும்.

பஞ்ச பூதங்களைத் தம் ஆளுகைக்குள் வைக்க அறிய வேண்டும்.

தமது தேகத்தைப் பாதுகாக்க அறிய வேண்டும்.

ஸ்தூல உடல் வேறு ஜீவன் வேறு என்பதை உணர வேண்டும். பூதவுடலை விடுத்து வேறான நான்கு உடல்கள் உள்ளன என்பதைத் தெளிதல் வேண்டும்.

உடல் தொடர்பை அறுக்க உடலில் இருந்துகொண்டே தெரிந்திருக்க வேண்டும்.குண்டலினி சக்தியைக் கையாளத் தெரிதல்.

வர்ம நாடி தத்துவம் அறிதல் வேண்டும்.

தாரணை, தியானம், சமாதி ஆகிய மூன்றும் கூடிய நிலையை அடைய வேண்டும். இதுவே சம்யமம்.

கூடுவிடா நிலையில் நன்கு தேர்ச்சி பெறல் வேண்டும்.

இறுதியாகத் தேகம் விட்டுச் சென்ற பின்னர், தமது உடலுள் மீளவும் வர அறிந்திருத்தல் வேண்டும்.

கூடுவிட்டுக் கூடு பாயும் கலை என்பது ஒரே நாளில் ஏற்படும் நிகழ்வும் அல்ல. ஒரு தனிப்பட்ட பயிற்சியும் அல்ல. சித்திகள் அனைத்திலும் பண்பட்ட நிலையில் தான் இக் கூடுவிட்டுக் கூடு பாயும் கலை வாய்க்கும். இக்கலையை அடைய பல நிலைகளைத் தாண்டி வர வேண்டும்.

ஆரம்பத்தில் இக்கலையை முயல்பவன், நினைத்த உடலில் செல்ல முடியாது. செல்லவும் கூடாது. படிப்படியாகவே செல்ல வேண்டும். முதலில் எறும்பு. பின் தேனி. பின் வண்டு. பின் பழம் மட்டும் உண்ணும் பறவைகள். இவ்வாறே முறையாகச் செல்ல வேண்டும். ஆனால் நாயின் உடலினுள்ளே செல்லல் தடை செய்யப்பட்டுள்ளது. ஆரம்பத்தில் கிடையாகப் படுத்துக் கிடந்தே முயல வேண்டும். முதிர்ச்சி பெற்ற பின் நினைத்த மாத்திரத்தில் செய்ய இயலும். பரகாயப் பிரவேசம் என்பது ஒரு கணம் பொழுதில் நிகழும்.

இப்பரகாயப் பிரவேசக் கலையை நமது சித்தர்கள் இலாவகமாகச் செய்துள்ளனர். ஆனாலும் அவை சுய இலாபத்துக்காக அன்றி பொது நலம் நோக்கியதாகவே உள்ளன. திருமூலர், போகர், புலிப்பாணி, அருணகிரிநாதர், பட்டினத்தார் என பலர் பரகாயப் பிரவேசம் செய்துள்ளமையை அவர்கள் வரலாற்றின் மூலம் அறிய முடிகிறது.

சித்தர் பெருமக்களிடையே வழங்கி வந்த அற்புதக் கலையான கூடு விட்டுக் கூடு பாயும் கலை இன்று இல்லாமலே போய் விட்டது. சில பேரின் தகாத போக்கு காரணமாக இவ்வாறான அரிய கலைகள் மாயா ஜாலம், கண்கட்டி வித்தை, மந்திரம், மாயம் என வெறுத்து ஒதுக்கப்பட்டு விட்டன. காலம் செய்த கோலத்தின் விளைவால் வந்த வினைகள் தமிழர் தம் அரிய கலைகளைக் குழி தோண்டிப் புதைத்துள்ளமை மிக வருந்தத்தக்கதே. ஆனாலும் சித்தர் நூல்களை முறைப்படி ஆராய்ந்து தெளிவுறும் போது இவை உலக வெளிச்சத்துக்கு வரும் என்பது திண்ணம்.

Read more at: https://universaltamil.com/கூடு-விட்டுக்-கூடு-பாய்த/


நன்றி: Universaltamil.com
 

Raman74

Member
Thought of sharing the following information and hope it adds value to the topic.

The incredible powers of the ancient Siddhars!

Siddhars are a type of saint in India who are said to have had many powers and achieved a ‘god-like’ state through specific secret practices that were known only to them. These powers spanned from controlling time and space, to transforming the body, manipulating matter at the molecular level and achieving immortality. The Siddhars were followers of the God Shiva and according to different texts there were 18 of them. Their teachings and findings were written in the form of poems in the Tamil language

There is a debate as to who was the first Siddhar. Some legends talk about Sri Pathanjali, who was considered to be an incarnation of Adiseshan, the celestial five-headed snake associated with God Vishnu. But the prevailing tradition refers to Agasthya (or Agasthyar) as the first Siddhar, one of the seven sages (or Saptarshis) as mentioned in the Vedic texts, and he was the son of the god Brahma of the Hindu creation story.

……………………………

Ashta Siddhis of Siddhars


The powers that the Siddhars possessed were separated in categories. The main category included 8 powers called ashta siddhis: To become tiny as the atom within the atom (Anima); To become big in unshakeable proportions (Mahima); To become as light as vapour in levitation (Laghima); To become as heavy as the mountain (Garima); To enter into other bodies in transmigration (Prapti); To be in all things, omni-pervasive (Prakamya); To be lord of all creation in omnipotence (Isatvam); To be everywhere in omnipresence (Vasitvam)

Ten Siddhis of Siddhars

There are ten secondary siddhis as described in Bhagavata Purana that include the following: Being undisturbed by hunger, thirst, and other bodily appetites; Hearing things far away; Seeing things far away; Moving the body wherever thought goes (teleportation/astral projection); Assuming any form desired; Entering the bodies of others; Dying when one desires; Witnessing and participating in the past times of the gods; Perfect accomplishment of one's determination; Orders or commands being unimpeded

The mystery remains…!

Due to the closely-guarded nature of the Siddhar records, the original knowledge of this enigmatic group of saints has remained shrouded in secrecy. The question remains whether their powers were real and, if so, how they managed to attain them. Manipulating space, time and matter would require knowledge far beyond what we have today.

Read more at: https://www.speakingtree.in/allslides/shocking-scientific-inventions-by-ancient-hindu-saints/190270
 

agopal

Active member
Thanks Folks! Good! Those were good links.
If ‘Warging’ for want of a better word, is used for healing purposes then a select few Siddhars could be allowed to Warg...ok.
I wonder why Dogs are not in the list of -using Game of Thrones terminology- ‘Wargable’ or a ‘Target’ Koodu. May be its got something to do with that being Kalabhairava’s Vahana..be that as it may...
I have been wondering about this... ok we are Humans with 5 Shariras., Sthula etc. you could imagine beings with less Shariras - The apparitions- the devas etc.
1) Can they Warg?
2) How Should the rules change then?
3) Can a being with more Shariras Warg into a being with Less Sharira?
4) Can Warging take control of Voluntary movements of a being?
Any thoughts or links appreciated!

Bear with me as we go through this exploration process. I really want to find out what people think....
 

vggovindarajan

New member
Only Thiruvallyvar can clarify this - which is not possible today as he is not with us - So we should read all these old text and in order to get clarification - what did swami vivekananda do, we too should do tha -he was a great scholar having read all the scriptures etc - yet did he not go to a master of his time - that is bhagwan ramakrishna - so that is correct procedure - same thing we too have to do - go in search for the master of today - who can reveal the true knowledge to us and clarify all the doubts
 

agopal

Active member
Only Thiruvallyvar can clarify this - which is not possible today as he is not with us - So we should read all these old text and in order to get clarification - what did swami vivekananda do, we too should do tha -he was a great scholar having read all the scriptures etc - yet did he not go to a master of his time - that is bhagwan ramakrishna - so that is correct procedure - same thing we too have to do - go in search for the master of today - who can reveal the true knowledge to us and clarify all the doubts
Agreed! But didn’t Dattatrreya who is the first Aghori listed 23 Gurus starting from an Ant ? Can’t learning come from anywhere? If ParahBrahman who is Guru Incarnate is everywhere then Gurus are everywhere too in expected and unexpected forms AND also being formless isn’t it? A formless Vetala taught Vikramaditya on Nyaya, - who really is a Master....Is any human Master better than Earth? Or Hasn’t a 2000 year old tree seen civilizations come and go? Or are they better than the Sun whom we worship?
Isn’t the most important aspect of learning is that education can come from anywhere? A child can correct you, so can a beggar. Can’t the sparks of insight into the truth of the matter appear from nowhere or everywhere?
You could answer the questions that I have posed 😀? Did you try to answer the question with your learning 😀?
 

vggovindarajan

New member
Sir pl understand - a king / prime minister of today a doctor of today and a master of today - is essential - if you have to do a big project and at PM level it has to be moved you will go to Modi and not Indira Gandhi - here i am not talking of political parties but a personality who is PM today irrespective of the political party he may belong.In the same manner the doctor who had treated your grandfather and not alive today cannot treat you.Therefore you need a doctor of today to treat you - similarly we need a master of today - you can have respect and also read books and saying of past PM- doctor- Master - but if the real knowledge is to be imparted to you,you need a guru today - Let me make it simple for you by means of an example - There was a master / guru,who had lived say 1000 years ago and he was not just giving dry philosophy but was also revealing the true divine knowledge to those blessed devotees who had recognized him......others who opposed him or ignored him - forget such people .Now you too are blessed but when that master lived you did not live and when you are living today he is not here - but you are a great devotee of that master,by worshiping his photo and reading all his books / saying etc etc - The question is do you not see a difference between yourself today and those devotees who actually lived with him - served him - walked with him - heard him and received the divine knowledge - So conclusion you need a mater of today and swami vivekananda was a living example who received that divine knowledge from Bhagwan paramahans--Regards
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Such acts were performed by Siddhars for common cause that is healing…


The Incredible Powers of the Ancient Siddhars

View attachment 8291



Siddhars are a type of saint in India who are said to have had many powers and achieved a ‘god-like’ state through specific secret practices that were known only to them. These powers spanned from controlling time and space, to transforming the body, manipulating matter at the molecular level and achieving immortality.

The Siddhars were followers of the God Shiva and according to different texts there were 18 of them. Their teachings and findings were written in the form of poems in the Tamil language , a language spoken mainly by people in South India and parts of Sri Lanka. The poems were very difficult to interpret and were written in an encoded way so that only a few could understand them.

There is a debate as to who was the first Siddhar. Some legends talk about Sri Pathanjali , who was considered to be an incarnation of Adiseshan, the celestial five-headed snake associated with God Vishnu. But the prevailing tradition refers to Agasthya (or Agasthyar) as the first Siddhar, one of the seven sages (or Saptarshis) as mentioned in the Vedic texts, and he was the son of the god Brahma of the Hindu creation story. Agathiyar is considered to be the author of a lot of the first Siddhar literature and he was supposed to have lived in the 7 th century BC. About 96 books are attributed to him and that includes writings in alchemy, medicine and spirituality. Apart from the legends that exist, the beginnings of the Siddhars’ are lost in time.



Read more at: https://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-religions/incredible-powers-ancient-siddhars-001447

“பரகாயப் பிரவேசம்” சித்தர்களின் விந்தை மிக்கக் கலை : “கூடுவிட்டுக் கூடுபாய்தல்”

தொகுப்பாக்கம் : இளஞ்சைவப் புலவர் . த.கி.ஷர்மிதன்.


உடல் விட்டு உடல் தாவுதல் : ஒரு உடம்பில் இருந்து இன்னுமொரு உடம்பிற்குள் செல்லல் இதுவாகும். மனிதன், விலங்கு, பறவை, பூச்சிகள் என அனைத்து சரீரத்துள்ளும் பிரவேசம் செய்தல் இதுவாகும். (சூக்கும சரீரம் ஒன்றே. உடல் அமைப்பே வேறு என்பது சித்தர் நிலைப்பாடு)



உடனிருப்போர் உடலுள் சென்று, அவர் மனதை இயக்க விடாமல் செய்தல். இது வெறுமனே ஆழ்மன வசப்படுத்தல் மாத்திரமே.

இ)

தனது உடலினை விட்டு நீங்கி சூட்சும உடலுடன் பிரயாணம் செய்தல். இத்தகு சித்து வாயிலாகவே சித்தர்கள் நினைத்த மாத்திரத்தில் நினைத்த இடங்களுக்குக் கணப் பொழுதில் பிரயாணம் செய்கின்றனர்.


இவ்வாறாக இக் கூடுவிட்டுக் கூடுபாய்தலில் பல படி நிலைகள் உள்ளன எனலாம். உடலை விட்டு உடல் தாவும் சித்தி என்பது மரத்தை விட்டு மரம் தாவும் செயலல்ல. இச்சித்தியைத் தனதாக்க பல தடைகள் தாண்ட வேண்டும். கூடுவிட்டுக் கூடுபாயும் கலை பற்றிய சில அம்சங்களை போகள், சின்ன வாத்தியார் போன்ற தமிழ் சினிமாக்கள் தொட்டுச் சென்றுள்ளமையும் இங்கு குறிப்பிடற்குரியது.

பரகாய பிரவேச மந்திரம் – Sattaimuni Nathar – Siththarkal – Sithargal – Sithar

தன் உடலைப் பற்றிய ஞானம் அவசியம். இயல்பு தத்துவம் தெளிவாகத் தெரிந்திருத்தல் வேண்டும்.

சரீர தத்துவங்கள் 96 குறித்து அறிந்திருக்க வேண்டும். சித்தர்கள் தெளிவாக அறிந்திருந்தனர்.

அண்டத்திலுள்ளதே (உலகத்தில் உள்ளதே) பிண்டத்திலும் (உடலிலும்) உண்டு என்பதைத்

தெளிய வேண்டும். உலகம் பஞ்ச பூதங்களால் ஆனது. அவ்வாறே மனித உடலும் பஞ்ச பூதங்களால் ஆனது என்பதை அறிய வேண்டும்.

பஞ்ச பூதங்களைத் தம் ஆளுகைக்குள் வைக்க அறிய வேண்டும்.

தமது தேகத்தைப் பாதுகாக்க அறிய வேண்டும்.

ஸ்தூல உடல் வேறு ஜீவன் வேறு என்பதை உணர வேண்டும். பூதவுடலை விடுத்து வேறான நான்கு உடல்கள் உள்ளன என்பதைத் தெளிதல் வேண்டும்.

உடல் தொடர்பை அறுக்க உடலில் இருந்துகொண்டே தெரிந்திருக்க வேண்டும்.குண்டலினி சக்தியைக் கையாளத் தெரிதல்.

வர்ம நாடி தத்துவம் அறிதல் வேண்டும்.

தாரணை, தியானம், சமாதி ஆகிய மூன்றும் கூடிய நிலையை அடைய வேண்டும். இதுவே சம்யமம்.

கூடுவிடா நிலையில் நன்கு தேர்ச்சி பெறல் வேண்டும்.

இறுதியாகத் தேகம் விட்டுச் சென்ற பின்னர், தமது உடலுள் மீளவும் வர அறிந்திருத்தல் வேண்டும்.

கூடுவிட்டுக் கூடு பாயும் கலை என்பது ஒரே நாளில் ஏற்படும் நிகழ்வும் அல்ல. ஒரு தனிப்பட்ட பயிற்சியும் அல்ல. சித்திகள் அனைத்திலும் பண்பட்ட நிலையில் தான் இக் கூடுவிட்டுக் கூடு பாயும் கலை வாய்க்கும். இக்கலையை அடைய பல நிலைகளைத் தாண்டி வர வேண்டும்.

ஆரம்பத்தில் இக்கலையை முயல்பவன், நினைத்த உடலில் செல்ல முடியாது. செல்லவும் கூடாது. படிப்படியாகவே செல்ல வேண்டும். முதலில் எறும்பு. பின் தேனி. பின் வண்டு. பின் பழம் மட்டும் உண்ணும் பறவைகள். இவ்வாறே முறையாகச் செல்ல வேண்டும். ஆனால் நாயின் உடலினுள்ளே செல்லல் தடை செய்யப்பட்டுள்ளது. ஆரம்பத்தில் கிடையாகப் படுத்துக் கிடந்தே முயல வேண்டும். முதிர்ச்சி பெற்ற பின் நினைத்த மாத்திரத்தில் செய்ய இயலும். பரகாயப் பிரவேசம் என்பது ஒரு கணம் பொழுதில் நிகழும்.

இப்பரகாயப் பிரவேசக் கலையை நமது சித்தர்கள் இலாவகமாகச் செய்துள்ளனர். ஆனாலும் அவை சுய இலாபத்துக்காக அன்றி பொது நலம் நோக்கியதாகவே உள்ளன. திருமூலர், போகர், புலிப்பாணி, அருணகிரிநாதர், பட்டினத்தார் என பலர் பரகாயப் பிரவேசம் செய்துள்ளமையை அவர்கள் வரலாற்றின் மூலம் அறிய முடிகிறது.

சித்தர் பெருமக்களிடையே வழங்கி வந்த அற்புதக் கலையான கூடு விட்டுக் கூடு பாயும் கலை இன்று இல்லாமலே போய் விட்டது. சில பேரின் தகாத போக்கு காரணமாக இவ்வாறான அரிய கலைகள் மாயா ஜாலம், கண்கட்டி வித்தை, மந்திரம், மாயம் என வெறுத்து ஒதுக்கப்பட்டு விட்டன. காலம் செய்த கோலத்தின் விளைவால் வந்த வினைகள் தமிழர் தம் அரிய கலைகளைக் குழி தோண்டிப் புதைத்துள்ளமை மிக வருந்தத்தக்கதே. ஆனாலும் சித்தர் நூல்களை முறைப்படி ஆராய்ந்து தெளிவுறும் போது இவை உலக வெளிச்சத்துக்கு வரும் என்பது திண்ணம்.

Read more at: https://universaltamil.com/கூடு-விட்டுக்-கூடு-பாய்த/


நன்றி: Universaltamil.com
பரகாயப்ரவேசம் என்பதோ, கூடுவிட்டு கூடு பாய்தல் என்பதோ உயிரற்ற வேறொரு உடலுக்குள் புகுவதை குறிக்கிறதா இல்லை உயிருடனிருக்கும் வேரொரு மனிதனுக்குள் ப்ரவேசிப்பதா? கூடு என்பது வெறும் கூட்டை மட்டுமே குறிப்பதாலும், காயம் என்பது வெறும் உடலை மட்டுமே குறிப்பதாலும் உயிருடனிருக்கும் மனிதனுக்குள் ப்ரவெசிப்பதை குறிப்பதாக எடுத்துக்கொள்ள காரணம் இல்லை.

So sidhdhi ultimately boils down to the ability to travel in Time and space freely without restrictions.
Available literature indicates that such an ability can be achieved by properly guided strenuous yoga practice. Yoga leads to the achievement of Samaadhi and once that is achieved travelling back and forth in time or anyother dimension becomes possible to the individual.

Those who are after knowing the Atma achieve these feats as part of the collaterals that come with the knowledge of Atma. These have only the "Awe by others" value and no other value for the individual concerned. The individual may collect fans as sishyas who may be wonderstruck by the anima etc sidhdhies and may tend to hold the individual in high esteem because it is not achievable by everyone.

There is a school of thought which believes with sufficient reason that such achievements are distractions. Such achievements, even if they come by as inevitable and unavoidable accretions, should be just ignored and should not be used to impress others. Vaishnavism believes such achievements are certainly distractions which may derail one from his mission of ultimate sayujyam. This is the reason why you will find all the vaishnavite seers carefully keeping away from the display of any such abilities which they may have.

Again I quote:

Na dharma nishtOsmi, NachAtmavEdhi, na bhaktimAnstwachcharanAravindhE,
akinchanOananya gatissaranya, twat pAdha moolam saranam prapatyE.

This is the position of a vaishnavite in this matter.
 

agopal

Active member
பரகாயப்ரவேசம் என்பதோ, கூடுவிட்டு கூடு பாய்தல் என்பதோ உயிரற்ற வேறொரு உடலுக்குள் புகுவதை குறிக்கிறதா இல்லை உயிருடனிருக்கும் வேரொரு மனிதனுக்குள் ப்ரவேசிப்பதா? கூடு என்பது வெறும் கூட்டை மட்டுமே குறிப்பதாலும், காயம் என்பது வெறும் உடலை மட்டுமே குறிப்பதாலும் உயிருடனிருக்கும் மனிதனுக்குள் ப்ரவெசிப்பதை குறிப்பதாக எடுத்துக்கொள்ள காரணம் இல்லை.

So sidhdhi ultimately boils down to the ability to travel in Time and space freely without restrictions.
Available literature indicates that such an ability can be achieved by properly guided strenuous yoga practice. Yoga leads to the achievement of Samaadhi and once that is achieved travelling back and forth in time or anyother dimension becomes possible to the individual.

Those who are after knowing the Atma achieve these feats as part of the collaterals that come with the knowledge of Atma. These have only the "Awe by others" value and no other value for the individual concerned. The individual may collect fans as sishyas who may be wonderstruck by the anima etc sidhdhies and may tend to hold the individual in high esteem because it is not achievable by everyone.

There is a school of thought which believes with sufficient reason that such achievements are distractions. Such achievements, even if they come by as inevitable and unavoidable accretions, should be just ignored and should not be used to impress others. Vaishnavism believes such achievements are certainly distractions which may derail one from his mission of ultimate sayujyam. This is the reason why you will find all the vaishnavite seers carefully keeping away from the display of any such abilities which they may have.

Again I quote:

Na dharma nishtOsmi, NachAtmavEdhi, na bhaktimAnstwachcharanAravindhE,
akinchanOananya gatissaranya, twat pAdha moolam saranam prapatyE.

This is the position of a vaishnavite in this matter.
Yes. Vaagmi Sir, That conforms to my understanding as well. AshtaSiddhis must also be sacrificed/ not used for becoming one with Brahman. Be that as it may. Let’s discuss something other the questions that I have posed....I have been wondering about the following. Dattatreya was the first Aghori. Aghoris - The set of Sadhus who are true renunciates, eats whatever even from Smaschana, walks around naked No Social rules bind them etc. Some said to have lived hundreds of years...Can they be claimed as Shaivites mirroring Shiva? If so, here is the Anomaly. Dattatreya was the boon of Vishnu to Anusaya and Atri, it was not Shiva who created the first Aghori...isn’t it surprising?
The Great Bhogi, The Great Virincha Narayana who had all the pleasures, Mayavan Vishnu, மாயக்கண்ணன், பெருமாள், a deity that no one knows about much, the one who sleeps in an ocean of milk, The eternal ever blissful, True lover , enjoys the Rasa leela, 16000+ Wives and 16000+ lives, The Purushottama, Achyuta, Nirguna AND Guna shaswatham All at once, with a cloud colored body, The dreamer, The Vedic Savitr, The Supreme Purusha who stays 10 fingers away, the Kala chakra Spinner, Paramatman, The Viraata Purusha etc. Etc. created his Complete complementary incarnate - An Aghori!
Why?
Also, It is the same Mahavishnu that we keep the ‘Vishnu’ Elai (Banana leaf) In Shraddhas for Pitr. It is the same MahaVishnu who brings our Pitr to satisfy their hunger at shraddha. There are Mantras to that effect. Why should such God come down to Do just that Job at the same time enjoys propitiations and bliss from all Lokas. Any guesses?
When Vishnu comes to do his Avatars won’t the Vaikuntham devotees who hold on to his legs tight also gets to do his job right? They have to travel wherever he goes, do his bidding...coming down for sincere Shradda performers to do their bidding. Do you really want them to hold on to Him when he does his duty for his devotees?
Amidst all this... all pujas end with Error offering to Vishnu! Kayenuvacha Manasendriya... Narayanayeti Samarpayami! That’s tons and tons of Error accumulation over centuries of all his bhakthas that he has to carry forth. He remains pure and hence whoever holds on to him gets the ‘pirambadi’ 😀...Is it still worthwhile going the Bhakthi Marg?
 
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Vaagmi

Well-known member
Yes. Vaagmi Sir, That conforms to my understanding as well. AshtaSiddhis must also be sacrificed/ not used for becoming one with Brahman. Be that as it may. Let’s discuss something other the questions that I have posed....I have been wondering about the following. Dattatreya was the first Aghori. Aghoris - The set of Sadhus who are true renunciates, eats whatever even from Smaschana, walks around naked No Social rules bind them etc. Some said to have lived hundreds of years...Can they be claimed as Shaivites mirroring Shiva? If so, here is the Anomaly. Dattatreya was the boon of Vishnu to Anusaya and Atri, it was not Shiva who created the first Aghori...isn’t it surprising?
All Rishis, Maharshis, and great acharyas are all evolved souls. Their actions/behaviour sometimes appear quixotic to us the ordinary souls who are perhaps struggling to catch up with them. So any attempt by me to explain the reality as it exists will be flawed to put it mildly. If you had the opportunity to meet an agori like Dattatreya and ask him this question as to whether he mirrors Siva, he may either ignore you and move or if he chooses to answer, may ask you who or what is Siva. To me there exists an entity which we may call God and the names we attach to that entity like Siva, Vishnu,Rama, Krisna are all just for convenience. So I am not at all surprised about the origin of Dattatreya. I remain at a level where such an inquiry is a distraction.
The Great Bhogi, The Great Virincha Narayana who had all the pleasures, Mayavan Vishnu, மாயக்கண்ணன், பெருமாள், a deity that no one knows about much, the one who sleeps in an ocean of milk, The eternal ever blissful, True lover , enjoys the Rasa leela, 16000+ Wives and 16000+ lives, The Purushottama, Achyuta, Nirguna AND Guna shaswatham All at once, with a cloud colored body, The dreamer, The Vedic Savitr, The Supreme Purusha who stays 10 fingers away, the Kala chakra Spinner, Paramatman, The Viraata Purusha etc. Etc. created his Complete complementary incarnate - An Aghori!
Why?
To me God entity is explained succinctly by this Vedic quote: yatho vaacho nivartante aprapya manasa Saha. To me the rasa Leela my ancestors have recorded is nothing but the dalliance when a Jivatma is happy on seeing the paramatma. The Leela is a part of the process leading to sayujyam.

Also, It is the same Mahavishnu that we keep the ‘Vishnu’ Elai (Banana leaf) In Shraddhas for Pitr. It is the same MahaVishnu who brings our Pitr to satisfy their hunger at shraddha. There are Mantras to that effect. Why should such God come down to Do just that Job at the same time enjoys propitiations and bliss from all Lokas. Any guesses?
When I perform a Shraddha I do not like any hindrance to my mission. So as I do in similar other situations, invoke and seek the God entity's protection. Vishnu in such situations is called Shraddha Samrakshaka Mahavishnu. It is again my requirement and so a convenience.
When Vishnu comes to do his Avatars won’t the Vaikuntham devotees who hold on to his legs tight also gets to do his job right? They have to travel wherever he goes, do his bidding...coming down for sincere Shradda performers to do their bidding. Do you really want them to hold on to Him when he does his duty for his devotees?
Vishnu with legs, hands, face etc like you and me is just a convenience because God entity is completely beyond all the known determinant coordinates known to you and me and to any human being. So your doubt is perhaps too childish to the evolved souls in Vaikuntha.
Amidst all this... all pujas end with Error offering to Vishnu! Kayenuvacha Manasendriya... Narayanayeti Samarpayami! That’s tons and tons of Error accumulation over centuries of all his bhakthas that he has to carry forth. He remains pure and hence whoever holds on to him gets the ‘pirambadi’ 😀...Is it still worthwhile going the Bhakthi Marg?
To me it all as its origin in the convenience I require. When I think deeply about the God entity/idea I become helpless as God can not be explained in any known language. So I make do with whatever I have. I give him a form - a Nrisimha, Rama, or Krishna or a ferocious looking Agni Maadan or whatever you like. Having given him that form next is to clothe him, adorn him, decorate him, love him,fear him, pray to him and do such things that a human will do a great King if he has one. It is all again convenience. In the same way we seek his indulgence and pardon for anymistakes we might have committed.

It is a standard practice taught to me by my dad and I follow it daily after completing my Nitya aaraadhana. I close my eyes and with the appropriate Bhava in mind chant:
Upacharaanaapathesena krithaan Ankara karmaya, apachaaraan imaan sarvaan kshamatva purushottama.

Yes I do that because for my convenience I do several things all the time thinking that they are all upacharam to God (shodasa upacharam). But all of them in truth may be just apacharam only. So I seek his pardon.

Hope I have made my position clear.
 

agopal

Active member
All Rishis, Maharshis, and great acharyas are all evolved souls. Their actions/behaviour sometimes appear quixotic to us the ordinary souls who are perhaps struggling to catch up with them. So any attempt by me to explain the reality as it exists will be flawed to put it mildly. If you had the opportunity to meet an agori like Dattatreya and ask him this question as to whether he mirrors Siva, he may either ignore you and move or if he chooses to answer, may ask you who or what is Siva. To me there exists an entity which we may call God and the names we attach to that entity like Siva, Vishnu,Rama, Krisna are all just for convenience. So I am not at all surprised about the origin of Dattatreya. I remain at a level where such an inquiry is a distraction.


To me God entity is explained succinctly by this Vedic quote: yatho vaacho nivartante aprapya manasa Saha. To me the rasa Leela my ancestors have recorded is nothing but the dalliance when a Jivatma is happy on seeing the paramatma. The Leela is a part of the process leading to sayujyam.


When I perform a Shraddha I do not like any hindrance to my mission. So as I do in similar other situations, invoke and seek the God entity's protection. Vishnu in such situations is called Shraddha Samrakshaka Mahavishnu. It is again my requirement and so a convenience.

Vishnu with legs, hands, face etc like you and me is just a convenience because God entity is completely beyond all the known determinant coordinates known to you and me and to any human being. So your doubt is perhaps too childish to the evolved souls in Vaikuntha.

To me it all as its origin in the convenience I require. When I think deeply about the God entity/idea I become helpless as God can not be explained in any known language. So I make do with whatever I have. I give him a form - a Nrisimha, Rama, or Krishna or a ferocious looking Agni Maadan or whatever you like. Having given him that form next is to clothe him, adorn him, decorate him, love him,fear him, pray to him and do such things that a human will do a great King if he has one. It is all again convenience. In the same way we seek his indulgence and pardon for anymistakes we might have committed.

It is a standard practice taught to me by my dad and I follow it daily after completing my Nitya aaraadhana. I close my eyes and with the appropriate Bhava in mind chant:
Upacharaanaapathesena krithaan Ankara karmaya, apachaaraan imaan sarvaan kshamatva purushottama.

Yes I do that because for my convenience I do several things all the time thinking that they are all upacharam to God (shodasa upacharam). But all of them in truth may be just apacharam only. So I seek his pardon.

Hope I have made my position clear.
Yes! "convenience" The keyword! The Shaper of worlds I should say! As Humanity progressed from Apes eating fruits and procreating with no clue of their origins, or, even thinking capacity to think about such things, we have come a long way! A monkey does indeed takes the *shorter AND safe* path to its food - even today. It was always about convenience. Achieving the "phala" or result in shorter time. There are errors when things are not done completely. We think we have done things 99.99% properly. But then everyone forgets the .01% that accumulates. We had something that would have corrected such error accumulations. Had it been done by priests.. for Yagnya for e.g.. I'm referring to Brahman priest role whose only job is to Silently utter Atharva veda manthras to counteract error accumulations.. Rigveda 2.1.2.
It was Super important. I'd go as far as saying Atharva Veda's Chief purpose was this!

तवाग्ने होत्रं तव पोत्रमृत्वियं तव नेष्ट्रं त्वमग्निदृतायतः ।
तव प्रशास्त्रं त्वमध्वरीयसि ब्रह्मा चासि गृहपतिश्च नो दमे ॥२॥[1]
Thine is the Herald's task and Cleanser's duly timed; Leader art thou, and Kindler for the pious man.
Thou art Director, thou the ministering Priest: thou art the Brahman, Lord and Master in our home.
— Rigveda 2.1.2[2]

But then it tapered away...Convenience kicked in! Something made us forget. Something made us
slip-up. Yes "Manese indriyaaa, Prkritheth-Swabhawath" - On account of my inherent inablility to control my senses and also "Natural Behavior". The too many things in our mind! Too many things-to-do. We are no longer monkeys. We have to provide food and shelter to our family etc. etc. But then it was no longer due to "Your" inherent natural behavior. It is no longer Prakriti. It was way way more. I would like to ask you sir, what else could it have been that made you take the Shorter path in Mantra for a Puja or Homa etc.. Let me list a few 1) Physical ailments ( ok - covered by Prakriti Swabhavath insurance 2) Distracted mind ( Ok. Indryia non-controlled insurance).

3) What else?
4) There are people talking about Human computer interface in the brain. Now, If we all become such AI-Hybrids today will the error rate come down? Can we then get rid of Atharva veda and Brahman priests?
In the same sense can we become Perfected Machine robots for any such activity requiring high-precision?

Please don't take any of this as a personal remark directed towards you sir, it is more a general question posed by an Outer Engineer to all the Inner Engineers graduated out of Inner Engineering course out there. Nudge,Nudge Wink Wink :) .

Any thoughts appreciated....
 

a-TB

Well-known member
From our Well-known member Visalakshmi Ramani's Blog on Thirumoolar's Thirumanthiram I see this possibly controversial verse

#908. திருக்கூத்தின் பயன்கள்

சொல்லு மொரு கூட்டில் புக்குச் சுகிக்கலாம்

நல்ல மடவார் நயத்துடனே வரும்

சொல்லிலும் பாசச் சுடர்ப்பாம்பு நீங்கிடும்

சொல்லும் திருக்கூத்தின் சூக்குமம் தானே.

திருவைந்தெழுத்துத் தியானத்தால் மற்றொரு உடலில் புகுந்து சுகமுறலாம். அழகியர் இத்தகையவரை நயந்து அணுகுவர். இவர் சொல்லலும் சொல்லால் பிறரின் பந்த பாசம் நீங்கி விடும். இவை அனைத்தும் திருக் கூத்தினால் விளையும் பயன்கள் ஆகும்.

The first sentence of this verse means a person Meditating on The Panchakshara Mantra can attain a Siddhi and Enter another living body and Enjoy their enjoyment /bliss. In "Noaendhamizh" it is also called "Koodu-vittu-Koodu payaradhu". Koodu refers to a body. For older generation people, you can reminisce movies with the theme where some bad element enters/places his soul seven mountains + Seven seas away for safe keeping! Modern folks, can relate to "Wargs" from Game of Thrones...
Now, You are a Jivatma with sentience. Isn't that about the Outrageous violation of Privacy / Freedom ever - EVEN if the entering soul is a great Siddha? What gives ANYONE right to enter another's body and enjoy ? Adhi-Shankara entered a "dead" king's body to know carnal pleasures. Agreed. The King was dead.
In your dream state you don't have Freedom. We can relax the rule a bit and say the Siddhas can enter your body during dream state - that is contentious as well.
In deep sleep state it is possibly(?) acceptable.
What do you think?
There is nothing like Siddha Power. One is welcome to believe whatever they want but it is not a factual thing.

There is no credible statement from Sankara that he entered the body of a dead king. These are stories with no basis. It is all based on someone's imagination
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Yes! "convenience" The keyword! The Shaper of worlds I should say! As Humanity progressed from Apes eating fruits and procreating with no clue of their origins, or, even thinking capacity to think about such things, we have come a long way! A monkey does indeed takes the *shorter AND safe* path to its food - even today. It was always about convenience. Achieving the "phala" or result in shorter time. There are errors when things are not done completely. We think we have done things 99.99% properly. But then everyone forgets the .01% that accumulates. We had something that would have corrected such error accumulations. Had it been done by priests.. for Yagnya for e.g.. I'm referring to Brahman priest role whose only job is to Silently utter Atharva veda manthras to counteract error accumulations.. Rigveda 2.1.2.
It was Super important. I'd go as far as saying Atharva Veda's Chief purpose was this!

तवाग्ने होत्रं तव पोत्रमृत्वियं तव नेष्ट्रं त्वमग्निदृतायतः ।
तव प्रशास्त्रं त्वमध्वरीयसि ब्रह्मा चासि गृहपतिश्च नो दमे ॥२॥[1]
Thine is the Herald's task and Cleanser's duly timed; Leader art thou, and Kindler for the pious man.
Thou art Director, thou the ministering Priest: thou art the Brahman, Lord and Master in our home.
— Rigveda 2.1.2[2]

But then it tapered away...Convenience kicked in! Something made us forget. Something made us
slip-up. Yes "Manese indriyaaa, Prkritheth-Swabhawath" - On account of my inherent inablility to control my senses and also "Natural Behavior". The too many things in our mind! Too many things-to-do. We are no longer monkeys. We have to provide food and shelter to our family etc. etc. But then it was no longer due to "Your" inherent natural behavior. It is no longer Prakriti. It was way way more. I would like to ask you sir, what else could it have been that made you take the Shorter path in Mantra for a Puja or Homa etc.. Let me list a few 1) Physical ailments ( ok - covered by Prakriti Swabhavath insurance 2) Distracted mind ( Ok. Indryia non-controlled insurance).

3) What else?
4) There are people talking about Human computer interface in the brain. Now, If we all become such AI-Hybrids today will the error rate come down? Can we then get rid of Atharva veda and Brahman priests?
In the same sense can we become Perfected Machine robots for any such activity requiring high-precision?

Please don't take any of this as a personal remark directed towards you sir, it is more a general question posed by an Outer Engineer to all the Inner Engineers graduated out of Inner Engineering course out there. Nudge,Nudge Wink Wink :) .

Any thoughts appreciated....
You have cleverly tried to interpret my "convenience" as laziness and impatience. Sorry. You are way off the mark. I used the term convenience to indicate a solution that human beings found to get over the unsurmountable problem of dealing with an entity (God) which can not be captured in any of the known coordinates --neither physical nor mental. So using the abilities of mind we found a solution which can be communicated, understood and adopted by every human because it is in a language/transaction which is understandable for them all.

If you do not get what I am speaking about, sorry. Good bye.
 

agopal

Active member
You have cleverly tried to interpret my "convenience" as laziness and impatience. Sorry. You are way off the mark. I used the term convenience to indicate a solution that human beings found to get over the unsurmountable problem of dealing with an entity (God) which can not be captured in any of the known coordinates --neither physical nor mental. So using the abilities of mind we found a solution which can be communicated, understood and adopted by every human because it is in a language/transaction which is understandable for them all.

If you do not get what I am speaking about, sorry. Good bye.
Yes Sir. I did intentionally misappropriated the term to drive home a point. I know you have used the term for describing God definition. Let’s get back to that now. In all our definitions, artistic rendering and written descriptions of God, there is always a ‘Reserved’ part something that is NOT understood. Something that is elusive. There is also an implied connotation. Like Vishnu sleeping on a Milk ocean, Shiva’s half-closed eyes. There are also artisitic rendering of what WE think it is - particularly representing perfection! Perfect embodiment of knowledge - Saraswati, Perfect embodiment of wealth - Lakshmi. Perfect love/lust inducer Kama deva, Perfect Bhogi Vishnu, Perfect renunciate Shiva, Perfect love inducer Krishna, Perfect righteousness depiction probably Krishna again. Of course the Creator Brahma. As we thought more, as we advanced more, from Apes, we found such PERFECT depictions of our need- satisfiers across time from Apes to Humans. The Cumulative time based - from apes to humans- mental, physical, emotional and intellectual NEED SATISFIERS based Perfect depictions and rendering in writing and art and stories became Gods. Also, for finding and fixing logical errors in such stories and depictions, - note that intelligence evolved too and so were the questions - we had more stories more relations more descriptions for explaining away descrepencies. The Puranas,humans and Gods included, and Such depictions became the basis of belief movements, the faith systems and Religions all over the history. BUT in such systems there were things that were Beyond the Perfect embodiment of need satisfiers , there were things that were Not quite necessary- however was still there. There was no original need for such Elaborate Vedas, Elaborate stories, no need for cryptic Upanishads, no need for Kashmiri Shaivism, No need for Varivasya Rahasya... etc. etc. But they were still there. Somebody thought of that -imagination, Apaureshya or not! So was there Truth in those ? Truth about the Whole? In such Aberrations ? May be...! it was required for us to find out. Required for us to Think about, reason about, explore about and finally Experience! May be! May be it was a test to see our advancement as a Human race. May be the First ones - The Sadhya Devas set it up to evaluate advancement to Allow progress or not. Why ? Why should Satthvik qualities be required for Advancement? Or , why should Siddhis be sacrificed? What is the next step in advancement now we made sure the resources of earth are under Our control? Is it Type -II civilization under Kardeshev scale? Or may be more. Why should the Yugas cycle? Can’t we go beyond earth? Let’s just say Vishnu hates to repeat his avatars! What Then? How many times do you want Pralaya? How many times you want to reboot your computer on and on and on running exactly the same programs? The same stories?Mahabharata included. Isn’t it very boring ? What would he do? How many realized Saints and Siddhars would you want to keep around - the Terminate and Stay resident programs to run our Earth? The realized Jivatmas mukthas, the light beings. The Dark entities. The Maha Pralaya Sakshins...How many Immortals do we need? If every one is Granted Moksha what then? In நொந்தமிழ் there is a Saying ‘அரைச்ச மாவையே அரைக்கரது’. The same old same old...If God is everywhere why are we afraid to go to Hell? Isn’t he there? We don’t give a damn if some ant or a minuscule insect Gets killed by our actions indirectly or directly. A mosquito in Chennai for e.g...BUT still want God to take care of our needs and accept our mistakes and why Should He care to repeat the cycles to hold it all together and to protect ? Why shouldn’t he take care of the Stars First? Produce more Hydrogen? Or produce more Black holes? Why Carbon based life forms should be preferentially treated? If we consider ourselves dust and does return to dust or ash why would our prayers have any effect at all? Why should he consider Saving us when the whole systems set up to protect us are abused? Incorrectly questioned without understanding the whole Gamut of reasoning behind such Systems... Feynman said ‘Shut up and Calculate’ did we ‘Shut up and Believe’ at least?
It is paradoxical that I believe and still raise this question. So tell me one quality that Human race needs as a whole that requires Protection? Love? That is only between humans or pets. Or what you see everyday like beautiful Nature. Have you tried loving a Mosquito or a Cockroach? Assume you are blind. What do you love? Assume you are deaf what do you love? Helping others? Empathy? Good thoughts, good deed? Belief? What is it? So, what is it that requires to be protected is my question to you Sir?
What is it that a Civilization needs for sustenance?

Answer without Hate...😀
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Yes Sir. I did intentionally misappropriated the term to drive home a point. I know you have used the term for describing God definition. Let’s get back to that now. In all our definitions, artistic rendering and written descriptions of God, there is always a ‘Reserved’ part something that is NOT understood. Something that is elusive. There is also an implied connotation. Like Vishnu sleeping on a Milk ocean, Shiva’s half-closed eyes. There are also artisitic rendering of what WE think it is - particularly representing perfection! Perfect embodiment of knowledge - Saraswati, Perfect embodiment of wealth - Lakshmi. Perfect love/lust inducer Kama deva, Perfect Bhogi Vishnu, Perfect renunciate Shiva, Perfect love inducer Krishna, Perfect righteousness depiction probably Krishna again. Of course the Creator Brahma. As we thought more, as we advanced more, from Apes, we found such PERFECT depictions of our need- satisfiers across time from Apes to Humans. The Cumulative time based - from apes to humans- mental, physical, emotional and intellectual NEED SATISFIERS based Perfect depictions and rendering in writing and art and stories became Gods. Also, for finding and fixing logical errors in such stories and depictions, - note that intelligence evolved too and so were the questions - we had more stories more relations more descriptions for explaining away descrepencies. The Puranas,humans and Gods included, and Such depictions became the basis of belief movements, the faith systems and Religions all over the history. BUT in such systems there were things that were Beyond the Perfect embodiment of need satisfiers , there were things that were Not quite necessary- however was still there. There was no original need for such Elaborate Vedas, Elaborate stories, no need for cryptic Upanishads, no need for Kashmiri Shaivism, No need for Varivasya Rahasya... etc. etc. But they were still there. Somebody thought of that -imagination, Apaureshya or not! So was there Truth in those ? Truth about the Whole? In such Aberrations ? May be...! it was required for us to find out. Required for us to Think about, reason about, explore about and finally Experience! May be! May be it was a test to see our advancement as a Human race. May be the First ones - The Sadhya Devas set it up to evaluate advancement to Allow progress or not. Why ? Why should Satthvik qualities be required for Advancement? Or , why should Siddhis be sacrificed? What is the next step in advancement now we made sure the resources of earth are under Our control? Is it Type -II civilization under Kardeshev scale? Or may be more. Why should the Yugas cycle? Can’t we go beyond earth? Let’s just say Vishnu hates to repeat his avatars! What Then? How many times do you want Pralaya? How many times you want to reboot your computer on and on and on running exactly the same programs? The same stories?Mahabharata included. Isn’t it very boring ? What would he do? How many realized Saints and Siddhars would you want to keep around - the Terminate and Stay resident programs to run our Earth? The realized Jivatmas mukthas, the light beings. The Dark entities. The Maha Pralaya Sakshins...How many Immortals do we need? If every one is Granted Moksha what then? In நொந்தமிழ் there is a Saying ‘அரைச்ச மாவையே அரைக்கரது’. The same old same old...If God is everywhere why are we afraid to go to Hell? Isn’t he there? We don’t give a damn if some ant or a minuscule insect Gets killed by our actions indirectly or directly. A mosquito in Chennai for e.g...BUT still want God to take care of our needs and accept our mistakes and why Should He care to repeat the cycles to hold it all together and to protect ? Why shouldn’t he take care of the Stars First? Produce more Hydrogen? Or produce more Black holes? Why Carbon based life forms should be preferentially treated? If we consider ourselves dust and does return to dust or ash why would our prayers have any effect at all? Why should he consider Saving us when the whole systems set up to protect us are abused? Incorrectly questioned without understanding the whole Gamut of reasoning behind such Systems... Feynman said ‘Shut up and Calculate’ did we ‘Shut up and Believe’ at least?
It is paradoxical that I believe and still raise this question. So tell me one quality that Human race needs as a whole that requires Protection? Love? That is only between humans or pets. Or what you see everyday like beautiful Nature. Have you tried loving a Mosquito or a Cockroach? Assume you are blind. What do you love? Assume you are deaf what do you love? Helping others? Empathy? Good thoughts, good deed? Belief? What is it? So, what is it that requires to be protected is my question to you Sir?
What is it that a Civilization needs for sustenance?

Answer without Hate...😀
Funny request 'answer without hate' ! Your message just questioned his 'God Concept' LOL

Those who are superstitious with beliefs be it Siddha power or imagine a miracle wielding God-person (such as one lying in a bed of serpents) tend to be numbed down by rituals limiting their ability to engage in logical discussions.

One who takes God to be a concept is already off the mark even if it is for any kinds of convenience

Suppose a person is hungry and we give him a conceptual description of a delicious meal, his hunger will not be addressed. God concept is like concept of a meal. That God concept leads to a concept of surrender to this God Concept. That surrender concept coupled with ritualistic acts of surrender only creates a confused persona. They will be displaying emotionalism and spasms in front of deity and then on their way back home will kick a beggar.

God is about Love and such people cannot fathom the meaning of Godliness
 

agopal

Active member
Funny request 'answer without hate' ! Your message just questioned his 'God Concept' LOL

Those who are superstitious with beliefs be it Siddha power or imagine a miracle wielding God-person (such as one lying in a bed of serpents) tend to be numbed down by rituals limiting their ability to engage in logical discussions.

One who takes God to be a concept is already off the mark even if it is for any kinds of convenience

Suppose a person is hungry and we give him a conceptual description of a delicious meal, his hunger will not be addressed. God concept is like concept of a meal. That God concept leads to a concept of surrender to this God Concept. That surrender concept coupled with ritualistic acts of surrender only creates a confused persona. They will be displaying emotionalism and spasms in front of deity and then on their way back home will kick a beggar.

God is about Love and such people cannot fathom the meaning of Godliness
“From fear of Him fire burns, from fear the sun shines, from fear Indra, Vayu, Death,the fifth, run.”
Yama, Katopanishad 2.3.3

Is God really about love? Does Sun or Death or Fire above “love” Brahman?

Didn’t Arjuna Tremble looking at the real form of Krishna?

I mean can you even extend love beyond earthly realms? Can you love A dark woman, a surpanaga, a Kali, An Aghori ? Shit? Spit? Garbage? Again God is in those things too right? If you can’t even conceptualize God, How can you love him? Ok, you conceptualize God and depict him and then love that depiction by words or art or sound or music! Isn’t that a love for YOUR imagination and creative work rather than that of God? You love beautiful things, visually pleasing, Melodious to hear Or depth of the meaning o the words heard, softer to touch etc....all appealing to senses and mind, heart and intellect doesn’t it? Love is possibly the sum total of beauty experienced by your senses correct? You are repelled as well by the same senses the sum total of things you hate.
So, aren’t love and hate part of the same?
Isn’t God equally part of Love as He is to Hate?
Isn’t he balanced for both Love and Hate?
Isn’t Brahman world an impartial world?

Now, tell me what is Beyond your senses that you can think of as God?

Answer wisely!
 

a-TB

Well-known member
“From fear of Him fire burns, from fear the sun shines, from fear Indra, Vayu, Death,the fifth, run.”
Yama, Katopanishad 2.3.3

Is God really about love? Does Sun or Death or Fire above “love” Brahman?

Didn’t Arjuna Tremble looking at the real form of Krishna?

I mean can you even extend love beyond earthly realms? Can you love A dark woman, a surpanaga, a Kali, An Aghori ? Shit? Spit? Garbage? Again God is in those things too right? If you can’t even conceptualize God, How can you love him? Ok, you conceptualize God and depict him and then love that depiction by words or art or sound or music! Isn’t that a love for YOUR imagination and creative work rather than that of God? You love beautiful things, visually pleasing, Melodious to hear Or depth of the meaning o the words heard, softer to touch etc....all appealing to senses and mind, heart and intellect doesn’t it? Love is possibly the sum total of beauty experienced by your senses correct? You are repelled as well by the same senses the sum total of things you hate.
So, aren’t love and hate part of the same?
Isn’t God equally part of Love as He is to Hate?
Isn’t he balanced for both Love and Hate?
Isn’t Brahman world an impartial world?

Now, tell me what is Beyond your senses that you can think of as God?

Answer wisely!
Funny you want wise answer but your belief in Siddhi power I am 'afraid' is not wise.

I believe you are stuck in conceptualization where all kinds of contradictions will exist. Please perceive LOL

I have not studied with any teacher on such topics and my knowledge is only at the level of reading some books and browsing websites. That too only since I came to this forum often while responding to some posts. So mine is conceptual but I usually find contradictions in most conceptual expressions of God across the board.

A concept is within the mind / intellect - I hope you agree to that.

If God or Atma is the One that makes the mind function, tell me - can that God really become another thought or a concept?? I do not think so.

Therefore you citation of the verse with literal translation is inapplicable. All that verse tells me is that natural laws work without fail. I would not be swayed by the use of the word fear. It may be just a poetic expression.

Within mind and concepts you have all these opposites. You have provided ample examples. But can you go beyond that ?

There are people who love what I hate and vice versa. You have expressed what you love and hate. Can you go beyond love and hate?

Only then it is said you will understand Love. Granted what I am telling you is another concept but that has more merit because it has potential to go beyond contradictions. God is on all those things you cited but you cannot 'know' that if you are stuck in the concept of God.

If you conceptualize God, you cannot Love God. Instead why not see God in all where un-corrupted Love exist - like between a mother and a newborn. The newborn demands and mother lovingly offers with no expectations. In that Love there is Godliness.

That is an answer to go beyond senses.

You are welcome to shoot holes in what I have stated (like I have done on your post) and I will take that as opportunity to do further research and get back .. But I would want a wise comeback !! And without Hate:)
 

agopal

Active member
Funny you want wise answer but your belief in Siddhi power I am 'afraid' is not wise.

I believe you are stuck in conceptualization where all kinds of contradictions will exist. Please perceive LOL

I have not studied with any teacher on such topics and my knowledge is only at the level of reading some books and browsing websites. That too only since I came to this forum often while responding to some posts. So mine is conceptual but I usually find contradictions in most conceptual expressions of God across the board.

A concept is within the mind / intellect - I hope you agree to that.

If God or Atma is the One that makes the mind function, tell me - can that God really become another thought or a concept?? I do not think so.

Therefore you citation of the verse with literal translation is inapplicable. All that verse tells me is that natural laws work without fail. I would not be swayed by the use of the word fear. It may be just a poetic expression.

Within mind and concepts you have all these opposites. You have provided ample examples. But can you go beyond that ?

There are people who love what I hate and vice versa. You have expressed what you love and hate. Can you go beyond love and hate?

Only then it is said you will understand Love. Granted what I am telling you is another concept but that has more merit because it has potential to go beyond contradictions. God is on all those things you cited but you cannot 'know' that if you are stuck in the concept of God.

If you conceptualize God, you cannot Love God. Instead why not see God in all where un-corrupted Love exist - like between a mother and a newborn. The newborn demands and mother lovingly offers with no expectations. In that Love there is Godliness.

That is an answer to go beyond senses.

You are welcome to shoot holes in what I have stated (like I have done on your post) and I will take that as opportunity to do further research and get back .. But I would want a wise comeback !! And without Hate:)
Good! You passed :)
I admit it requires very small amount of planning and careful selection of words to feign ignorance :) to ferret out what people truly feel! If you know that I know the answers to the question that I had posed, your commitment to an answer will not be perfect and it will result in careless and sloppy answers. Set aside my ulterior motive. May be it was for a research project. May be it was for a particular purpose. That said, if you do a lot more research you will find that Siddhis were and are within the reach of humanity and science. Just not the way you assume it to be. You can check with true Gurus...who possibly would have experienced it. OK. Now the idea of uncorrupted love is interesting. Yes, I have seen uncorrupted love. I have seen mom's breasts oozing milk involuntarily on hearing the baby cry. I have seen anguish and contentment and love. I have sensed the void when a person you love leaves. To associate it with Godliness-Yes. But to God.... Mmmm...That requires more. Normally, When you mean love it is between two or more entities. Let's stretch a bit...Let's divest the body ...so you don't have any physical form and hence no physical senses. Let's say now you are still aware and conscious and see through light. Look at all the Near-death experience people recounts.

1) Can love exist in that realm?
2) What would be the other entity that you could love?

Answer with imagination :)
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Good! You passed :)
I admit it requires very small amount of planning and careful selection of words to feign ignorance :) to ferret out what people truly feel! If you know that I know the answers to the question that I had posed, your commitment to an answer will not be perfect and it will result in careless and sloppy answers. Set aside my ulterior motive. May be it was for a research project. May be it was for a particular purpose. That said, if you do a lot more research you will find that Siddhis were and are within the reach of humanity and science. Just not the way you assume it to be. You can check with true Gurus...who possibly would have experienced it. OK. Now the idea of uncorrupted love is interesting. Yes, I have seen uncorrupted love. I have seen mom's breasts oozing milk involuntarily on hearing the baby cry. I have seen anguish and contentment and love. I have sensed the void when a person you love leaves. To associate it with Godliness-Yes. But to God.... Mmmm...That requires more. Normally, When you mean love it is between two or more entities. Let's stretch a bit...Let's divest the body ...so you don't have any physical form and hence no physical senses. Let's say now you are still aware and conscious and see through light. Look at all the Near-death experience people recounts.

1) Can love exist in that realm?
2) What would be the other entity that you could love?

Answer with imagination :)
OOlalala Happy I passed your test :)

Now, kindly tell me what you understand by someone attaining Siddhi and how it is within the reach of humanity and science. Please give specific examples. Do you have first hand experience witnessing such events? How does it square away with laws of nature? No feigning ignorance, please!

Feel that many of your questions may be tied to your basic beliefs about siddhi, death, so called near-death experience etc.

Will respond to your questions after understanding your beliefs or possibly after learning facts from your response

Be accurate and specific - no Imaginations !!
 
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