Brahmins and Jews

[palindrome]

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Not only can the candidate get admission in open category but he is required to use open category ahead of reserved category. This is true for all reserved classes - BC, MBC, SC, and ST. They all can get admission in open category. The declaration is needed only for admission in the respective reserved categories because an SC cannot get into a BC and vice versa.

Since admissions are going on now, TN government website has put out a list. So now we can see it. The provisional wait list for open category (for government medical colleges) is here: http://www.tnhealth.org/notification/August2013/g-m-waitlistopen.pdf

I think you have a point. In the whole list under open category (OC) there are only 119 OC candidates out of 2198 candidates who made it. The rest are not upper castes. There are 537 MBC, 87 BCM (BC-Minority), 147 SC, 88 ST, 15 SCA (SC-Arundathiyar). The rest of 1205 candidates are BC. But all qualified under Open Category merit.

In effect, there are more SC candidates who qualified under Open category merit than upper castes. This could mean SC candidates are performing better than upper castes.

This is the provisional wait list for open category for self-financed (private) medical colleges: http://www.tnhealth.org/notification/August2013/s-m-waitlis.pdf -- Even in this out of 678 candidates there are only 60 OC (upper caste) candidates who scored above cut off. The rest who scored above cut off are 102 MBC, 17 BCM, 29 ST, with BC forming the rest of the bulk.

In addition to this there are 2 more lists:
1) For government colleges: Provisional Wait List for Govt. MBBS Under Reserved Category(BC/BCM/MBC/DNC/SC/SCA/ST).
2) For self-financed (private) colleges: Provisional Wait List for SF. MBBS Under Reserved Category(BC/BCM/MBC/DNC/SC/SCA/ST).

In these 2 lists candidates are selected based on caste. Still the same cut-off marks apply. So if a Backward Caste (BC) candidate does not make it thru Open Category, if he scores above cut-off, he can still try under BC Category.

However I do not understand one difference. In the Open Category list, the lowest score is 195.5. In BC reserved Category there are hundreds of candidates with scores above 195.5. Yet they have not been selected under Open Category or Vice-versa. Why?

For example,
In this list (open category) 128 candidates (mostly BC) got 195.5.
In this list (reserved category) 693 BC candidates got above 195.5. Yet they have not been slotted in the Open Category plus BC candidates of Open Category (who got 195.5) are not slotted in the reserved category. Why?

If all candidates go thru Open Category first, why BC candidates who scored above 195.5 did not get under Open Category? How BC candidates who got 195.5 obtain admission under Open Category when there are other BC candidates who scored higher than them?

Does this mean there are other factors deciding the admission? Does it depend on the way college seats are filled (ie., on the collective way candidates choose their college of choice)? Or due to some other reason? If possible, if you know someone in Chennai, please do clarify this for me. Thanks. Renu, if you know about this, please do write in.

All the same, am surprised so few OC (upper castes) got into the Open Category. So much for caste and merit. Amazing really.

 

[Vaagmi]

1. Chanars were a fraction above untouchables. If schemes were made to benefit them, so be it. But today if some wealthy ones are taking undue advantage of it, report them in media or report at thasildar's office.

2. The OP posts by Sangom sir gives chapter, verse with full explanation. Pls read before asking for proof.

3. Manusmriti was authored under the brahmin Sunga dynasty. Better ask Sangom sir to explain further. It is apparent you are trying to draw this into a slugfest and I choose to stay away from it. Thanks.

4. Maybe all this was triggered by my post number 158 quoting higher cut-off marks for BC than Open category. Oh well.....

1. So what. You have not tried to understand the argument at all. When you deny a scholarship selectively to a brahmin student at the school level and make him wallow in poverty and mal-nutrition while helping out another BC student in a similar situation with a scholarship and still expect the brahmin boy to score high cut-off marks in the entrance examinations, it is just unfair. This is the anamoly I was trying to point out. I was not asking you for a solution to a section of the chanars getting undeserved scholarship benefits. Shows extremely poor understanding of the issues.

2. I have read it. I want to know your views. Not someone else's.

3. Who authored Manusmriti is the pointed question. Please answer that question. I did not ask you under which dynasty it was coded. If you have proof that a brahmin compiled it, please let me have the proof -chapter and verse, not a reference to someone else posting here or to the wikipedia. If you have no proof please admit it.

4. I know you are an expert in slugging it out. But to use it as an excuse to escape from a corner is ingenious. I do not care if you leave my questions unanswered. But I will be laughing when you come here next time with your chapter and verse quotes to prove something. There is something called intellectual honesty and reputation to live up to. Thanks.

 

[vgane]

Since admissions are going on now, TN government website has put out a list. So now we can see it. The provisional wait list for open category (for government medical colleges) is here: http://www.tnhealth.org/notification/August2013/g-m-waitlistopen.pdf

I think you have a point. In the whole list under open category (OC) there are only 119 OC candidates out of 2198 candidates who made it. The rest are not upper castes. There are 537 MBC, 87 BCM (BC-Minority), 147 SC, 88 ST, 15 SCA (SC-Arundathiyar). The rest of 1205 candidates are BC. But all qualified under Open Category merit.

In effect, there are more SC candidates who qualified under Open category merit than upper castes. This could mean SC candidates are performing better than upper castes.

This is the provisional wait list for open category for self-financed (private) medical colleges: http://www.tnhealth.org/notification/August2013/s-m-waitlis.pdf -- Even in this out of 678 candidates there are only 60 OC (upper caste) candidates who scored above cut off. The rest who scored above cut off are 102 MBC, 17 BCM, 29 ST, with BC forming the rest of the bulk.

In addition to this there are 2 more lists:
1) For government colleges: Provisional Wait List for Govt. MBBS Under Reserved Category(BC/BCM/MBC/DNC/SC/SCA/ST).
2) For self-financed (private) colleges: Provisional Wait List for SF. MBBS Under Reserved Category(BC/BCM/MBC/DNC/SC/SCA/ST).

In these 2 lists candidates are selected based on caste. Still the same cut-off marks apply. So if a Backward Caste (BC) candidate does not make it thru Open Category, if he scores above cut-off, he can still try under BC Category.

However I do not understand one difference. In the Open Category list, the lowest score is 195.5. In BC reserved Category there are hundreds of candidates with scores above 195.5. Yet they have not been selected under Open Category or Vice-versa. Why?

For example,
In this list (open category) 128 candidates (mostly BC) got 195.5.
In this list (reserved category) 693 BC candidates got above 195.5. Yet they have not been slotted in the Open Category plus BC candidates of Open Category (who got 195.5) are not slotted in the reserved category. Why?

If all candidates go thru Open Category first, why BC candidates who scored above 195.5 did not get under Open Category? How BC candidates who got 195.5 obtain admission under Open Category when there are other BC candidates who scored higher than them?

Does this mean there are other factors deciding the admission? Does it depend on the way college seats are filled (ie., on the collective way candidates choose their college of choice)? Or due to some other reason? If possible, if you know someone in Chennai, please do clarify this for me. Thanks. Renu, if you know about this, please do write in.

All the same, am surprised so few OC (upper castes) got into the Open Category. So much for caste and merit. Amazing really.

Dear Palindrome,

Data is revealing...The % of General category (Upper caste) in MBBS is just about 1.6% of the total admissions in Government colleges and it is just about the same about 2.7% in private colleges

The Brahmins understood that they hardly have a chance in Medical colleges 4 decades back

In 70's Karunanidhi Government made sure that Brahmins did not get a seat in the State Engg colleges & Medical colleges and even Law colleges...I know a few candidates who were belittled by the Selection Commitee which constituted a sham Interview process (There were no entrance exams) by asking Oh you are a Brahmin...Then recite Sahasranamam..The competition in Medical was very very intense as no of seats was very less (May be about 2000)...DMK was ruling the roost...Corruption also was very high

For entering Medical as Biology was required in PUC, in case you fail to get MBBS...you have to do a B.Sc Botany or Zoology whose future was bleak...So Brahmins were advised even if they were intelligent & wanted a career in Medicine to shun that and take Mathematics instead of Biology so that if they do not get Engg they can do a B.Sc in Math or Phaysics or Chemistry & chances were bright in Employment for those graduates

The dreams of Brahmins who wanted Medicine were burried under sand & over that the pedestal of Non Brahmin hegemony was constructed

Even now the aversion is very strong for Medicine among the Brahmins because of this

Come 80's and MGR (the good samaritan CM of Tamil Nadu) agreed to open private engg colleges which to a large extent solved the problem of reservations/selective discrimination of the Brahmins

Among my relatives those who are Doctors are outside the TN State/Country...

Even now if Brahmins are given a level playing field in Medicine, lots of Brahmins will come in droves to Medical in TN what with excessive Engg colleges with hardly any infrastructure dotting the country side & IT recruitment of freshers has reached a plataeu and there is a huge shortfall of Doctors...Tho' Medicine requires advanced study ..A plain MBBS won't do good...You have to study MD for that which means you should be ready for a study of 7-8 years after your schooling

But will the Non Brahmin politicians (DMK type) allow Brahmins to pursue Medicine in Tamil Nadu?

My guess is No...Why don't you try & correct the injustice??

Is this not reverse discrimination of sorts happening for the past 5 decades??

 

[sangom]

Dear Palindrome,

Data is revealing...The % of General category (Upper caste) in MBBS is just about 1.6% of the total admissions in Government colleges and it is just about the same about 2.7% in private colleges

The Brahmins understood that they hardly have a chance in Medical colleges 4 decades back

In 70's Karunanidhi Government made sure that Brahmins did not get a seat in the State Engg colleges & Medical colleges and even Law colleges...I know a few candidates who were belittled by the Selection Commitee which constituted a sham Interview process (There were no entrance exams) by asking Oh you are a Brahmin...Then recite Sahasranamam..The competition in Medical was very very intense as no of seats was very less (May be about 2000)...DMK was ruling the roost...Corruption also was very high

For entering Medical as Biology was required in PUC, in case you fail to get MBBS...you have to do a B.Sc Botany or Zoology whose future was bleak...So Brahmins were advised even if they were intelligent & wanted a career in Medicine to shun that and take Mathematics instead of Biology so that if they do not get Engg they can do a B.Sc in Math or Phaysics or Chemistry & chances were bright in Employment for those graduates

The dreams of Brahmins who wanted Medicine were burried under sand & over that the pedestal of Non Brahmin hegemony was constructed

Even now the aversion is very strong for Medicine among the Brahmins because of this

Come 80's and MGR (the good samaritan CM of Tamil Nadu) agreed to open private engg colleges which to a large extent solved the problem of reservations/selective discrimination of the Brahmins

Among my relatives those who are Doctors are outside the TN State/Country...

Even now if Brahmins are given a level playing field in Medicine, lots of Brahmins will come in droves to Medical in TN what with excessive Engg colleges with hardly any infrastructure dotting the country side & IT recruitment of freshers has reached a plataeu and there is a huge shortfall of Doctors...Tho' Medicine requires advanced study ..A plain MBBS won't do good...You have to study MD for that which means you should be ready for a study of 7-8 years after your schooling

But will the Non Brahmin politicians (DMK type) allow Brahmins to pursue Medicine in Tamil Nadu?

My guess is No...Why don't you try & correct the injustice??

Is this not reverse discrimination of sorts happening for the past 5 decades??

Dear Shri Gane,

I was told by some young people who are doctors and tabras too, that the enthusiasm for medicine is going down all around and also among tabras, because of the new liability laws which doctors have to face now. Unless fields like computer (software, networking, hardware, etc.), biotechnology, etc., go down completely in terms of job opportunities, there may not be a revival in interest in the doctor-line. One more thing which deters young people is that unless one takes the name of "KairasikkAran/kAri" doctor, the future is bleak both in private practice and under large hospital chains the latter compelling doctors to adopt many unethical methods so as to make maximum profit (income) for the hospital.

We have to bear in mind all such factors also when trying to analyze the entrance pass lists.

I do not think we can call this reverse discrimination of sorts, but, if we bear in mind the hegemony which brahmins enjoyed in many lines just some 70 or 80 years ago, perhaps this also can be considered "partial hegemony".

 

[palindrome]

Dear Palindrome,

Data is revealing...The % of General category (Upper caste) in MBBS is just about 1.6% of the total admissions in Government colleges and it is just about the same about 2.7% in private colleges

Why do you think the numbers are so low? Surely brahmins (for all claims made here) are very competitive. Why they fail to score well?

Surely there is no difference in the way cut-off is calculated. The same method is followed for everyone. Please note how cut-off is calculated -- MBBS and BDS Cutoff Calculation Examples - TNMA

Yes, the open category is open for everyone. But don't you think in this merit category, majority should have been brahmins? Yet, i get to hear the ones who make it under this category are non-brahmin forward castes.

Don't you think it is ironical that cut-off for backward class category was higher in major government medical colleges than open category ?

Sorry sir, i think it is merely competition and will get tougher.

As for the rest of your post below, it appears to be based on 40 years back. Anyways, will address it.

The Brahmins understood that they hardly have a chance in Medical colleges 4 decades back

In 70's Karunanidhi Government made sure that Brahmins did not get a seat in the State Engg colleges & Medical colleges and even Law colleges...I know a few candidates who were belittled by the Selection Commitee which constituted a sham Interview process (There were no entrance exams) by asking Oh you are a Brahmin...Then recite Sahasranamam..The competition in Medical was very very intense as no of seats was very less (May be about 2000)...DMK was ruling the roost...Corruption also was very high

Maybe in the early days when DMK came to power, some DMK person in the selection committee did what you are quoting. In which part of tamilnadu did it happen btw (also, if possible, wud like to know the name of the person who asked you / your friend to recite sahasranama).

Will a few incidents you quote suffice to make similar allegations now? Do you think the situation of 40 years back holds true now? Since then so many things have been streamlined.

Btw, i was told even 50 years back you had to score well. My mother passed out school final with a gold medal in mathematics and very high scores in all other subjects. Yet she did not get admission in SMC (stanley medical college) located much nearer to her home. She got admission in a different place.

The history of holding an entrance exam for medical and engeering was in place 3 decades back. Today, everything is computerized. The highest scorers are called for 'counselling' (placement, actually) first. Once a candidate selects a college with all details entered into the computer he cannot change his choice. Like this all seats are filled. At this point of time, if a candidate brings a caste certificate, such as BC, SC, ST, then he or she can try under the caste reserved category. But of course, only if they score above the cut-off.

I had asked Kalabhariava and Renu a question in my earlier post. Now i have the answer. It seems If a high scorer opts under BC category, he will get in that category only, although with his score he could have got under Open Category. Such candidates are often border-line. They score within the cut-off but the cut-off for open category and reserved category varies. So if a candidate got 199 or 200 he can be confident he will get into the open category. But if he got 196 he may not get a college of choice (the computer may show seat is unavailable) so he opts under reserved category. This is why some candidates under reserved category have higher cut-off marks than candidates of open category.

This is also why some candidates under open category have lower cut-off than candidates of reserved category -- bcoz during placement they got a college of their choice. Since there are many counselling centres, candidates from different parts of the state can make a choice on the same day in 2 different places. Hence, such a system.

For entering Medical as Biology was required in PUC, in case you fail to get MBBS...you have to do a B.Sc Botany or Zoology whose future was bleak...So Brahmins were advised even if they were intelligent & wanted a career in Medicine to shun that and take Mathematics instead of Biology so that if they do not get Engg they can do a B.Sc in Math or Phaysics or Chemistry & chances were bright in Employment for those graduates

I do not know who gave that advice. Am sorry yourself or your friends had to go thru this. But if you did not score high enough or had problems proving domicility / nativity, you had to do BSc before trying for MBBS admission again, in other parts of the country too. So i hear from my dad.

The dreams of Brahmins who wanted Medicine were burried under sand & over that the pedestal of Non Brahmin hegemony was constructed

Even now the aversion is very strong for Medicine among the Brahmins because of this

Are you sure it is bcoz of this? I hear so many complaints specifically from tamil brahmins. Sorry sir, in today's times I think it is because they are not making it thru the open category. Instead nagrathars and telugu speakers who come under forward caste are.

Come 80's and MGR (the good samaritan CM of Tamil Nadu) agreed to open private engg colleges which to a large extent solved the problem of reservations/selective discrimination of the Brahmins

Even in private medical colleges, under open category hardly any brahmins make it above the cut-off marks for MBBS admission. I suppose a large number of them prefer engineering??

Among my relatives those who are Doctors are outside the TN State/Country...

Even now if Brahmins are given a level playing field in Medicine, lots of Brahmins will come in droves to Medical in TN what with excessive Engg colleges with hardly any infrastructure dotting the country side & IT recruitment of freshers has reached a plataeu and there is a huge shortfall of Doctors...Tho' Medicine requires advanced study ..A plain MBBS won't do good...You have to study MD for that which means you should be ready for a study of 7-8 years after your schooling

But will the Non Brahmin politicians (DMK type) allow Brahmins to pursue Medicine in Tamil Nadu?

My guess is No...Why don't you try & correct the injustice??

Is this not reverse discrimination of sorts happening for the past 5 decades??

Am i holding the platter of justice and injustice in my hands? Sorry sir, if anyone scores well, they can make it thru merit. Again, I borrow Nacchinarkiniyan's words:
Show me one instance of a Brahmin rank holder being denied admission because of reservation. I will withdraw my above statement. Many of us made to the top because we got a rank in our examination. Not because we were Brahmins.

Addition: I can think of 9 names (brahmins) who are my mother's friends. If what you say is true, how did they (being brahmins) get into a medical college? Do note, am talking of 50 years back (in the 1960s).

 

[prasad1]

Dear Shri Gane,

I was told by some young people who are doctors and tabras too, that the enthusiasm for medicine is going down all around and also among tabras, because of the new liability laws which doctors have to face now. Unless fields like computer (software, networking, hardware, etc.), biotechnology, etc., go down completely in terms of job opportunities, there may not be a revival in interest in the doctor-line. One more thing which deters young people is that unless one takes the name of "KairasikkAran/kAri" doctor, the future is bleak both in private practice and under large hospital chains the latter compelling doctors to adopt many unethical methods so as to make maximum profit (income) for the hospital.

We have to bear in mind all such factors also when trying to analyze the entrance pass lists.

I do not think we can call this reverse discrimination of sorts, but, if we bear in mind the hegemony which brahmins enjoyed in many lines just some 70 or 80 years ago, perhaps this also can be considered "partial hegemony".

Two wrongs do not make it right.
Reservation is wrong against today's constituents.

 

[praveen]

@palindrome,

I am letting the above post stay. But please do note this is a website primarily for the Brahmins. Constantly posting anti-brahmin messages under the pretext of discussion (or participating in one) is not something that is taken lightly. Eventually your account will be banned permanently (without notice too). Most of us know you are not a brahmin, so it is like adding fuel to fire.
May i suggest that you tone down your anti-brahmin tirades (at the drop of a pin) or stop them completely.
If you are unable to do so, then can i suggest that you stop posting completely ?

Consider this as a friendly notice. Next time it might not be a friendly one.

Thank you.

 

[vgane]

vgane-My response in Bold

Why do you think the numbers are so low? Surely brahmins (for all claims made here) are very competitive. Why they fail to score well?
vgane-I have given the reason below...It is because of past prejudices that Brahmins are not going for Medical...
Surely there is no difference in the way cut-off is calculated. The same method is followed for everyone. Please note how cut-off is calculated -- MBBS and BDS Cutoff Calculation Examples - TNMA

Yes, the open category is open for everyone. But don't you think in this merit category, majority should have been brahmins? Yet, i get to hear the ones who make it under this category are non-brahmin forward castes.

Don't you think it is ironical that cut-off for backward class category was higher in major government medical colleges than open category ?

Sorry sir, i think it is merely competition and will get tougher.

As for the rest of your post below, it appears to be based on 40 years back. Anyways, will address it.


Maybe in the early days when DMK came to power, some DMK person in the selection committee did what you are quoting. In which part of tamilnadu did it happen btw (also, if possible, wud like to know the name of the person who asked you / your friend to recite sahasranama).

Will a few incidents you quote suffice to make similar allegations now? Do you think the situation of 40 years back holds true now? Since then so many things have been streamlined.
vgane-AFAIK it is not there currently...But in the 70's Brahmins were very subdued & hardly spoke about the prejudices inflicted on the community ...Probably they had some past pride which stood them in good stead..In the early 80's I have personally seen DK gangs in Hostels intimidating Brahmin Freshers and asking them to speak profanities about the community..Annamalai University was notorious for that..I ran away from that college after spending 3 months in the Engg hostel...If you want me to name the perpetrators of injustice, I am not interested in taking up some retributive justice (Anniyan) style ...I am better off without that nasty college
Btw, i was told even 50 years back you had to score well. My mother passed out school final with a gold medal in mathematics and very high scores in all other subjects. Yet she did not get admission in SMC (stanley medical college) located much nearer to her home. She got admission in a different place.

The history of holding an entrance exam for medical and engeering was in place 3 decades back. Today, everything is computerized. The highest scorers are called for 'counselling' (placement, actually) first. Once a candidate selects a college with all details entered into the computer he cannot change his choice. Like this all seats are filled. At this point of time, if a candidate brings a caste certificate, such as BC, SC, ST, then he or she can try under the caste reserved category. But of course, only if they score above the cut-off.


I do not know who gave that advice. Am sorry yourself or your friends had to go thru this. But if you scored low you had to do BSc before trying for MBBS admission in other parts of the country too. My father did BSc before doing medicine.
vgane-The whole point is MBBS & post graduation which is a must now a days after + 2 itself takes away 8 years..If you include B.Sc , you add another 2 years...So 10 years after +2 is a big time compared to Engg where you are employable after 4 years of undergraduation
[quoteThe dreams of Brahmins who wanted Medicine were burried under sand & over that the pedestal of Non Brahmin hegemony was constructed

Even now the aversion is very strong for Medicine among the Brahmins because of this

Are you sure it is bcoz of this? I hear so many complaints specifically from tamil brahmins. Sorry sir, in today's times I think it is because they are not making it thru the open category. Instead nagrathars and telugu speakers who come under forward caste are.


Even in private medical colleges, under open category hardly any brahmins make it for mbbs admission. I suppose a large number of them prefer engineering??

Am i holding the platter to injustice? Sorry sir, if anyone scores well, they can make it thru merit. Again, I borrow Nacchinarkiniyan's words:
Show me one instance of a Brahmin rank holder being denied admission because of reservation. I will withdraw my above statement. Many of us made to the top because we got a rank in our examination. Not because we were Brahmins.[/QUOTE]

vgane-
I only wish the injustices of the past in Medicine are removed before Brahmins can take up in large numbers...Hope I am not true & let Brahmins get attracted to Medicine in droves

 

[palindrome]

@palindrome,

I am letting the above post stay. But please do note this is a website primarily for the Brahmins. Constantly posting anti-brahmin messages under the pretext of discussion (or participating in one) is not something that is taken lightly. Eventually your account will be banned permanently (without notice too). Most of us know you are not a brahmin, so it is like adding fuel to fire.
May i suggest that you tone down your anti-brahmin tirades (at the drop of a pin) or stop them completely.
If you are unable to do so, then can i suggest that you stop posting completely ?

Consider this as a friendly notice. Next time it might not be a friendly one.

Thank you.

Since this is not in red, i feel, this is a suggestion not as a moderator, so i can post this.

If you feel my above post has anti-brahmin tirade in it, please let me know where. I suppose this refers to my reply to vgane. I have made some additions to that post and edited some spelling errors.

If this post was made as a moderator, please feel free to delete this post and my reply to vgane above.

 

[palindrome]

vgane-I have given the reason below...It is because of past prejudices that Brahmins are not going for Medical...

But there are so many brahmin applicants every year. Surely, they do apply.

vgane-AFAIK it is not there currently...But in the 70's Brahmins were very subdued & hardly spoke about the prejudices inflicted on the community ...Probably they had some past pride which stood them in good stead..In the early 80's I have personally seen DK gangs in Hostels intimidating Brahmin Freshers and asking them to speak profanities about the community..Annamalai University was notorious for that..I ran away from that college after spending 3 months in the Engg hostel...If you want me to name the perpetrators of injustice, I am not interested in taking up some retributive justice (Anniyan) style ...I am better off without that nasty college

Am very sorry to hear this. I do not know anything about Annamalai University. I only heard it is dominated by nagarathars. Similar to your instance, i heard (from some people who experienced it), that non-brahmin students were harassed in brahmin dominated institutions like vivekananda college. They were called expletives and treated like dirt. I do not want to go into the details, but this was done to make them quit and leave the place (which they did).

Am able to understand why back then so much anger existed on both sides. So much for caste really....Is the anger any lesser now? Am not sure really...at least we are talking in a civil manner; thanks to modernism. So there is hope for solutions.

vgane-The whole point is MBBS & post graduation which is a must now a days after + 2 itself takes away 8 years..If you include B.Sc , you add another 2 years...So 10 years after +2 is a big time compared to Engg where you are employable after 4 years of undergraduation

Ah ok, yes i understand your pov now.

vgane-
I only wish the injustices of the past in Medicine are removed before Brahmins can take up in large numbers...Hope I am not true & let Brahmins get attracted to Medicine in droves

Sir, i personally know brahmins who did medicine in tamilnadu 50 years back. Am thinking how did they get admission (if what you say about admissions 40 years back) is true? Now i feel, maybe 50 years back in the 1960s it was not bad, but in your time in the 1970s it got bad. Maybe it was politics of that time period.

I do not know how injustices of the past can be removed. If you have any solutions, please let me know. All i can think of is to remove caste completely -- caste is like a toxin eating away everything...Thankfully, in today's India, in social life caste barriers are breaking down. This, i feel, holds the key to future solutions. But this is my opinion only. Wud be glad to hear what you have in mind.

 

[palindrome]

@palindrome,

I am letting the above post stay. But please do note this is a website primarily for the Brahmins. Constantly posting anti-brahmin messages under the pretext of discussion (or participating in one) is not something that is taken lightly. Eventually your account will be banned permanently (without notice too). Most of us know you are not a brahmin, so it is like adding fuel to fire.
May i suggest that you tone down your anti-brahmin tirades (at the drop of a pin) or stop them completely.
If you are unable to do so, then can i suggest that you stop posting completely ?

Consider this as a friendly notice. Next time it might not be a friendly one.

Thank you.

Kindly clarify, if I can reply to Vaagmi's post above? Since it is about Manusmriti, hence asking beforehand. No matter how nicely presented, the material presented will not be pleasing to brahmins. If I do post, i suppose my account will be banned...

Addition:
On one hand I will be told to reply, on the other hand I may be banned without any explanation whatsoever.

 

[sarang]

Such a satvik, non violent and non proselytizing religion, sanatana dharma has survived vile, vicious and violent attacks of non indic, abrahamic religions only by strict adherence to the varna, kula and jati dharma. This noble path will survive only when varna-kula-jati dharma is understood and practised. All scriptures make references to this structure, and one cannot wish away this. Of course, lot of migration, regrouping, division must have happened in the past and will continue in future too. None of the gurus, ancient or modern have acted against the division - all have talked about only discrimination. The challenge is how to minimise discrimination; even the very orthodox acharyas or neo vedantins talk about non-discrimination and do not advocate abolition of varna or jati.

All varnas and jatis have rich and glorious traditions; they have the right (nothing to do with constitution or secularism) to practice, revive and uphold the traditions.

Better interests of the society will be served if brahmin baiters use their energy and zeal in a positive way and help sections of communities which, in their opinion, need their help.

Let committed brahmins or practicing brahmins do whatever they can to preserve the tradition. This does not in any way works against the interests of any section of the society in a larger context.

There are many brahmins who have managed to combine traditional and modern practices and are happy.

 

[palindrome]

Such a satvik, non violent and non proselytizing religion, sanatana dharma has survived vile, vicious and violent attacks of non indic, abrahamic religions only by strict adherence to the varna, kula and jati dharma. This noble path will survive only when varna-kula-jati dharma is understood and practised. All scriptures make references to this structure, and one cannot wish away this. Of course, lot of migration, regrouping, division must have happened in the past and will continue in future too. None of the gurus, ancient or modern have acted against the division - all have talked about only discrimination. The challenge is how to minimise discrimination; even the very orthodox acharyas or neo vedantins talk about non-discrimination and do not advocate abolition of varna or jati.

All varnas and jatis have rich and glorious traditions; they have the right (nothing to do with constitution or secularism) to practice, revive and uphold the traditions.

Better interests of the society will be served if brahmin baiters use their energy and zeal in a positive way and help sections of communities which, in their opinion, need their help.

Let committed brahmins or practicing brahmins do whatever they can to preserve the tradition. This does not in any way works against the interests of any section of the society in a larger context.

There are many brahmins who have managed to combine traditional and modern practices and are happy.

Now minimize discrimination? Sorry sarang, its too late. Modernism has already charted out that path and taken us on it. Religion can only try to hope and keep pace (trying to cope perhaps includes making false claims about religion, but anyways no worries -- and this applies not just to 'hinduism' but to all religions. All religions face similar challenges in making themselves relevant to a changing world; all religions make fantastic claims about themselves. The muslim world is the only one taking the path of physical violence to enforce themselves on its believers (like shia versus sunni)).

Guess what....no matter what each side says, each will do only what they want. So you folks will do what you want; and folks like me will do what we want....Lets see what eventually comes out....We won't exist 1000 years later to see what difference it made. Certainly, in my lifetime, i am observing several changes, and that is enuf.

 

[sarang]

At no time manusmruti or any other smruti was followed in toto; only portions of the dharmasastras, approved by the acharyas of the time and approved by the king were followed. In fact, manusmruti got a voice only after the british dug it out and translated it. At least in south, during pallava-chola-pandya-naikkar periods, not a single instance of atrocities against any community, low or high, has been recorded. Sections of manusmruti is sufficient for practicing a vaidika life.

Kindly clarify, if I can reply to Vaagmi's post above? Since it is about Manusmriti, hence asking beforehand. No matter how nicely presented, the material presented will not be pleasing to brahmins. If I do post, i suppose my account will be banned...

Addition:
On one hand I will be told to reply, on the other hand I may be banned without any explanation whatsoever.

 

[prasad1]

Now minimize discrimination? Sorry sarang, its too late. Modernism has already charted out that path and taken us on it. Religion can only try to hope and keep pace.

Guess what....no matter what each side says, each will do only what they want. So you folks will do what you want; and folks like me will do what we want....Lets see what eventually comes out....We won't exist 1000 years later to see what difference it made. Certainly, in my lifetime, i am observing several changes, and that is enuf.

Sorry to interject.
Your habit of putting yourself against 'you all' is the most galling observation. You are the most divisive person I have seen. We all at some time differ from others, but your agenda is to put down Brahmins, and you do not mince any words. It might be most satisfying to you, but no body likes to have their face rubbed in dirt, why is it so difficult for you to understand? Most of people can take a hint, others have to have their knuckle rapped, but you are totally beyond all that.

 

[Nara]

... But please do note this is a website primarily for the Brahmins. Constantly posting anti-brahmin messages under the pretext of discussion (or participating in one) is not something that is taken lightly.

Praveen, emboldened by the color of the font I venture to ask for some clarifications. What messages do you think are anti-brahmin? This is very unclear. In this case it looks like a vigorous defence of reservation system is seen as anti-Brahmin. As one who writes along similar lines I would like to know what topics would be deemed anti-Brahmin.

Eventually your account will be banned permanently (without notice too). Most of us know you are not a brahmin, so it is like adding fuel to fire.
May i suggest that you tone down your anti-brahmin tirades (at the drop of a pin) or stop them completely.
If you are unable to do so, then can i suggest that you stop posting completely ?

Consider this as a friendly notice. Next time it might not be a friendly one.

This "friendly notice" is rather harsh! I don't know why Palindrome is being singled out. Why are the perpetrators of regular vicious personal attacks against her do not get public "friendly notice"? Why is it relevant that she is not brahmin? I also consider myself not a Brahmin and would like others to see me as not a Brahmin, and do I also need to put a sock in it, stop completely?

Praveen, if you want to be impartial I request you to withdraw this rather one-sided and harsh rebuke against Palindrome.

Thank you ....

 

[palindrome]

Sorry to interject.
Your habit of putting yourself against 'you all' is the most galling observation. You are the most divisive person I have seen. We all at some time differ from others, but your agenda is to put down Brahmins, and you do not mince any words. It might be most satisfying to you, but no body likes to have their face rubbed in dirt, why is it so difficult for you to understand? Most of people can take a hint, others have to have their knuckle rapped, but you are totally beyond all that.

The phrase "Folks like you" means folks like sarang who want to keep varna and caste divisions.

The phrase "folks like me: means folks like me who do not think such divisions will hold any water in future bcoz trends since the past decade are a glimpse of the future....and further developments in SET will hold our sway elsewhere.

Anyways, what both sides hold to be true are each one's opinions.

All the same, your interjection was not needed. Appears you just want to do what you usually do (make personal allegations or insults).

 

[sarang]

You will benefit by watching any tamil tv channel in the morning from 5 to 7 (most have hindu religious programmes), with a mixture of devotional songs, saivite and vaishnavite upanyasams, live telecast of yajnas, kumbabishekams, veda recitals and temple rituals. Many a time there is a reference to the varnas depending on the puranic story or sthalapuranam, and these references are in no way offensive, intrusive or galling. Try something positive for a change. Who knows, miracles do occur.

Now minimize discrimination? Sorry sarang, its too late. Modernism has already charted out that path and taken us on it. Religion can only try to hope and keep pace (trying to cope perhaps includes making false claims about religion, but anyways no worries -- and this applies not just to 'hinduism' but to all religions. All religions face similar challenges in making themselves relevant to a changing world; all religions make fantastic claims about themselves. The muslim world is the only one taking the path of physical violence to enforce themselves on its believers (like shia versus sunni)).

Guess what....no matter what each side says, each will do only what they want. So you folks will do what you want; and folks like me will do what we want....Lets see what eventually comes out....We won't exist 1000 years later to see what difference it made. Certainly, in my lifetime, i am observing several changes, and that is enuf.

 

[palindrome]

At no time manusmruti or any other smruti was followed in toto; only portions of the dharmasastras, approved by the acharyas of the time and approved by the king were followed. In fact, manusmruti got a voice only after the british dug it out and translated it. At least in south, during pallava-chola-pandya-naikkar periods, not a single instance of atrocities against any community, low or high, has been recorded. Sections of manusmruti is sufficient for practicing a vaidika life.

The Nayaks of south used Manusmriti for their administration. Even Kandy nayaks did. So its not like british dug it out.

Warren Hastings asked pundits of calcutta to translate as many shastras as possible. The Brits also put these texts into print format. So those who knew sanskrit cud now read it. And those did not know sanskrit could now read the translations.

As for atrocities, we have enough instances from ancient periods as the cholas, and recent history as peshwas.

 

[palindrome]

You will benefit by watching any tamil tv channel in the morning from 5 to 7 (most have hindu religious programmes), with a mixture of devotional songs, saivite and vaishnavite upanyasams, live telecast of yajnas, kumbabishekams, veda recitals and temple rituals. Many a time there is a reference to the varnas depending on the puranic story or sthalapuranam, and these references are in no way offensive, intrusive or galling. Try something positive for a change. Who knows, miracles do occur.

thanks. While at India i was hooked to Jaya TV. Oh yes, i have faith in the faith part of faith. Not in the rules and laws that make it a religion.

 

[Nara]

Palindrome -- I wish to express my support for you in public. I feel really very sorry that you are unfairly being singled out. I don't know whether it is because you are a woman, or you are not a Brahmin, or perhaps both, none of these guys have any respect for your erudition. Their answers to your cogent arguments are personal put downs, unwanted advice, and vicious personal attacks. All these show moral lapse as far as I am concerned. If the object is to silence the opposing voices they are succeeding.

 

[palindrome]

Nara Sir,

Many thanks for the support.

I have been going thru all my posts on this thread, to see where I have faulted. Am unable to find what am being accused of (anti-brahmin tirade). Hence, asked Praveen to let me know where (in which post) he finds so. All the same, since this website belongs to him, he reserves the right to do what he wishes.

In any case, I have decided not to reply to Vaagmi. Maybe it was a warning before I reply.

 

[kkumar29]

Palindrome -- I wish to express my support for you in public. I feel really very sorry that you are unfairly being singled out. I don't know whether it is because you are a woman, or you are not a Brahmin, or perhaps both, none of these guys have any respect for your erudition. Their answers to your cogent arguments are personal put downs, unwanted advice, and vicious personal attacks. All these show moral lapse as far as I am concerned. If the object is to silence the opposing voices they are succeeding.

Dear Mr. Nara,

While I commend you for supporting Palindrome, and I agree with it, I have a bone to pick with you Where were you when certain members of this forum were carrying on a tirade against NRI's and attributing negative motives behind NRI's intentions.? After all you are an NRI too.

This post is in jest, I am just kidding

K. Kumar

 

[sangom]

Two wrongs do not make it right.
Reservation is wrong against today's constituents.

I don't clearly get what is sought to be conveyed by the word "today's constituents". But I do believe that the Law of Karma, both the individual's and collective Karma of groups, populations, countries and even the whole word population's, is much beyond anyone's grasp - including the imagined powers of imagined gods. This Law of Karma is the ultimate justice-keeper and leveller and possibly what the Rigveda called "rtam". It works its way, whether we have complaints about its mode or not. Hence we have the position obtaining now - which appears to you to be "wrong against today's constituents" - will last till that Law changes. If brahmins could enjoy social supremacy for a few millennia, may be the BCs, OBCs, MBCs, SCs & STs will enjoy some preferences for a few centuries at least till the phenomenon called "castes" disappears completely from among us.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I was going to post one last reply in this thread in part as a response to Sangom's post (#199) and also on how this communal discrimination is linked to hatemongering against brahmins. However, the direction of the thread has changed again and I will stop here.