Brahmana (Brahmin) Status

[il_guy]

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Namaskar,

I think this issue has been dealt with, that being a brahmana (brahmin) is by conduct alone, and not by mere birth. I just wanted to say that according to Lord Krishna's words in the Gita, I fit in with the brahmana varna more than the other three. I study. A lot. And I try to talk about things with other people, whenever I get the chance, although that is rare. And, I have a sattvik predominant way about me. I'm trying to become more and more sattvik as I progress. And, eventually, I am getting my Upanayanam. I try to follow shastras as best as I can.

So, according to the definition (which is the proper one, not the birth alone version) that the inborn qualities and natural inclinations make one a member of whichever varna, I fit in with the brahmana varna. I definitely don't desire power, lots of money, fame, or other such things. I just want to learn all I can and live a peaceable life with God and my fellow creatures.

I am Justin, of Kashyapa gotra, of Apastamba sutra, of Yajurveda shakha, of three pravaras named Kashyapa, Avatsara, and Daivala.

 

[Nara]

... that the inborn qualities and natural inclinations make one a member of whichever varna, I fit in with the brahmana varna. I definitely don't desire power, lots of money, fame, or other such things. I just want to learn all I can and live a peaceable life with God and my fellow creatures.

Dear Shri Justin,

Your descriptions seem contradictory. On the one hand you are talking about in-born and natural inclinations, and on the other you say a brahamana is determined by conduct. If good conduct is a result of in-born qualities and natural inclinations, then is it not a determined by birth? In other words, a person is born as a brahmana or not.

Why should a person of good conduct and character be called a brahmana? What kind of conduct would make a person shudra? Who gets to say who is who?

Why can't we just say he or she is a good person if he/she has good conduct and leave it at that?

In practice the term "brahmana" refers to birth jAthi only. So, when somebody talks about brahamana quality and conduct etc., it is just obfuscation, IMHO.

From your name and what you have been saying, I gather you are a person of non-Indian origin. If this is so, you will never be accepted as a brahmana, you will always be a mlechcha no matter how many upanayanams you get done.

Personally I think all this Varna stuff has no spiritual merit at all. These are of no use to nobody. Be a good person, make merry without hurting anyone, enjoy life, love all. Leave god alone, he has no time for these silly things if he actually exists.

Cheers!

 

[il_guy]

Namaste Nara,

Maybe I did contradict myself. I did not intend to do that. Maybe my own definitions are messed up. But I know many Hindus who do not view me as a mleccha. They consider me part of their own. And yes, they are born Hindus. It doesn't matter if one is Indian or American or whatever. Anyone can be a Hindu. I've actually grown sick of hearing all of this "You must be Indian" bull crap. It is not so.

I am not trying to bite at you. But I am a Hindu, and as my purohit has told me, no body can tell me I'm not. History has proven people have come into the Hindu fold throughout history. If people are too blind to see that, it is not my problem. I'm tired of all this fickle close mindedness when it comes to 'who is a Hindu?'

A Hindu is any person who accepts the Veda (and by extension the Bhagavad Gita, Itihasa, Purana, Agama, Tantra, etc.) and lives accordingly. It does not matter who their parents are, where they were born, the color of their skin, or any such ridiculous limitations.

I will admit I was contradictory with my first post. But I will not back down from my stance on who is a Hindu.

And, to everyone else who is reading this, please do not take this post as a backlash to anyone. It is somewhat of a backlash on this subject, but not at any one particular person.

P.S.-Nara, I am not biting at you either. I'm just sick of hearing these comments.

 

[sapthajihva]

Hello Shri Justin,

I wonder why you started this thread - to identify your thoughts about a brahmana or about your self? Probably you might have just wanted to voice your feelings about this? Just curious as to the purpose of the thread... thatz all...

Now there is truth in what you say and also some truth in what Shri Nara says...

There is a story in Mahabharatha where Yudhishtira's four brothers were held captive by the powers of Nahusha (in the form of a huge serpent due to the curse of Bhrigu Rishi)... He had to correctly answer the questions put forth to him so that his brothers could be released. One of the questions was - "Who is a brahmana?" Yudhishtira answers that birth ALONE does not make one a brahmana. It is right conduct, treading the path of ahimsa, choosing the path of knowledge et al. And lo! It is the correct answer.

There can be two deductions out of this answer - a brahmana is by birth; a brahmana is also by conduct and the quest for enlightenment.

Another line of reasoning could be - a brahmana is by birth and by conduct.

We are talking about an era which was several thousands of years ago. Am not talking about the modern calculations here; pls check the time period of dwapara yuga and you could easily judge the time frame. In those days, society was structured based on birth, though the hierarchy did not bestow any benefits per se, as each had a separate dharma attached to them.

It is important to note that dharma and varna by birth go hand in hand. We cannot interpolate current practices to infer the past; it would be a gross mistake.

In my opinion, there is a brahmana by birth and a 'brahmanathvam' status to a person of NB origin who possesses the qualities of a brahmana.

Once somebody has accepted the vedas as the path to Brahman, he is a vaidic (ie., a follower of the vedas); the modern terminology is 'Hindu'.

......................................

Shri Nara,

A person of good conduct is a person of good conduct alone - and that is a quality expected from every human being. The varna here depicts the innate quality of a person which dominates his thinking i.e., the innate qualities of the karmaphala emanating from the desire of the athma, exhibits itself in the varna which suits it the most. As an example (only), an athma which longs for material pleasures would have a birth in a circumstance which is conducive to furthering that purpose.

When such a desire of the athma culminates in a birth, the physical senses too spring forth such a desire. After all the athma is the impetus for the functioning of the gross physical body. Though the person may be a good person, he cannot and will not strive for any other motive in his life, which is the discriminating factor. Only by a drastic change could the karmaphalas be mollified or eliminated.

Regards,

 

[Ramansrini]

Namaskar,

Only Brahmins are always convincing themselves if they are Brahmin. No other caste check their quality to see if they are Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, or Sudras. Even though Varnashira dharma is not based on birth as per Sruthi(Veda, Upanishad, Geetha), but Brahmins did not want to loose their status. so dharmasastras (smruthi) were written to attach a person’s caste to his birth.

As per Hinduism, smruthi can be changeable, so we may need to consider discarding some of the dharmasashtras like Manu dharma from Hinduism.

This will clear the mind-set from the people.

 

[il_guy]

Namaste sapthajihva,

Thank you for your post. There is some food for thought there. My reasoning for posting the thread was intended to convey my feelings that a brahmana is made by his natural inclinations. I suppose, this is the same thing as inborn qualities. My natural inclination is to study the Sanathana Dharma and apply its teachings. I thought that, with this natural inclination, I could be counted among the brahmana varna. I'm not trying to talk about the caste system that is based on birth, but the varnasharama dharma of the Sruti. Isn't in the Rig Veda something along these lines: "My father is a physician, I am a bard, and my mother grinds the corn"? Something along those lines.

I did have one other Hindu welcome me into being a brahmana when I told him I was getting my Upanayanam. I, of course, have the proper inclinations. Just as someone with kshatriya inclinations would go towards the police force or military, etc. I believe the varnashrama dharma applies to all of humanity. I think the Purushasuktam proves this. And, by extension, I believe all humans have the right to be Hindu if they so choose.

Ramansrini:

Remember: What is in Smriti that contradicts the Shruti is to be discarded and the Shruti takes precedence.

 

[Nara]

A Hindu is any person who accepts the Veda (and by extension the Bhagavad Gita, Itihasa, Purana, Agama, Tantra, etc.) and lives accordingly. It does not matter who their parents are, where they were born, the color of their skin, or any such ridiculous limitations.

Dear Justin,
It looks like I have touched a nerve. Let me first assure you, I have no problem with you being a Hindu or be a Brahmana. However, the very things you rightly say should not matter, viz. their parents, where they were born, the color of their skin, matter, unfortunately, matter very much. I am with you that they should not matter, but the reality is different.

The theory, the ideal, and the practice are all so mixed up that what you desire is not all that it is cracked up to be.

I wish you the best in your pursuits.

best regards!

 

[il_guy]

Namaskar Sri Nara,

Yes, this issue is a touchy one for me. Whenever someone even remotely sounds like they're going to say "Oh, you're a Westerner. You aren't Hindu", I get very...frightened and downcast. I have dedicated my life to Sanathana Dharma. I love it dearly. And every time someone starts to sound like that, I just automatically go on the defensive. You are, of course, forgiven. As I said, I wasn't meaning to attack you personally. I just thought those were going to be the next words you typed. I don't know why, after all this time, it still bothers me. But it does.

We call our Dharma as universal. Well, it's not 'universal' when you're denying someone participation in it because of some stupid reason as they aren't Indian or whatever. Even a lowly thief or murderer that happens to be a Westerner could change their whole life around just by practicing our Dharma. I remember reading about Sage Valmiki was a thief. He approached a sadhu and was going to rob him. Of course, the sadhu had nothing to for him to steal. So, he gave him a mantra. The mantra was 'Mara'. Valmiki kept repeating it until he realized he was chanting 'Rama, Rama, Rama'. Rama, of course, is God. And from that day on, his life changed and he went on to write the Ramayana. So, it can and does change if it is allowed to do so. Why would you want to deny anyone such a wondrous boon?

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Sapthajihva:

Greetings!

In my opinion, there is a brahmana by birth and a 'brahmanathvam' status to a person of NB origin who possesses the qualities of a brahmana.

[....]

A person of good conduct is a person of good conduct alone - and that is a quality expected from every human being. The varna here depicts the innate quality of a person which dominates his thinking i.e., the innate qualities of the karmaphala emanating from the desire of the athma, exhibits itself in the varna which suits it the most.

I think your description of Varna is quite accurate, i.e. I agree with it -- Varna is birth based is the orthodox view.

Then, what is the purpose of NB brahmanathvam?

In other words, given what you say, namely,

"When such a desire of the athma culminates in a birth, the physical senses too spring forth such a desire."​

why should a jeeva with desire for "brahmanathvam" be born as an NB?

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Shri Nara,

Justin is an American white, very Hindu and also has a hindu name. Hope the youngman does not get put off by the replies here.

Hello Justin,

Have only skimmed thru your posts, but letting you know a few things :

a) That hindusim accepts everyone is somewhat flawed due to the following:

i) If hinduism had been an all-accepting faith, it wud have not have segregated and forbade the dalits from vedism right from the time when such a system was created (possibly, from abt 500 BC).

ii) Vedas do not preach any jati system. But dharmashastras that surfaced later practice segregation. And predominantly based on dharmashastras and a few other texts (plus interpretations considered flawed by other Ekadandis), the 4 (+1) mutts of Adi Shankara created an exclusive "by-birth"system.

You speak of Shringeri mutt sending you a pic of Shri Adi Shankara. But please be warned that the same mutt is most likely not to accept you as a brahmin...

b) Varna by birth is practiced only by the mutts of Adi Shankara and a section of the tridandi monks. They are mainly purvamimansaka ritualists. If acceptance into the brahmin fold is what you seek, you might not receive it from them.

For a larger support network, made of people from all walks of life, you may try the other Ekadandi mutts (that is, ashrams of Shivananda, etc).

c) If its advaitha you seek, please note that many of the ekadandis do not undergo upanayanam; and tend to remove the thread upon sanyasam. The Ekadandi advaita monastic traditions are far more older than Adi Shankara (AS).

AS sought to organize the ekadandi monks into 4 mutts. He suceeded only partially. The success was only nominal bcoz the ekadandis do not consider varna and jaati as the same. But the people who joined Shankara mutts (possibly the purvamimansa ritualists) sought to consider them the same and ended up creating (the right word is actually 'enforcing') a rigid system.

Whatever you have mentioned on this thread abt varna and jati, shruti and smrithi are the views of the other Ekadandi Advaitins, but not those of the Ekadandi advaitins of the Shankara mutts (that is mutts established by Adi Shankara).

The monks of the Shankara mutts are not into amending smrithis or acknowleding interpolations in them, instead they possibly seek to enforce things as it is (its confusing which smrithi they actually want everyone to follow, since smrithis themselves are both self-contradictory plus various smrithis contradict one another). The other Ekadandis tend to recognize the probs with the smrithis, and consider the shruti superior to smrithis.

Ekadandi advaitins consider varna, guna, proclivities, etc as inherent by birth but not based on jaati (occupation). They recognize varnas as semi-stratified units with freedom of movement from one varna to another. They do not recognize the term called 'jati brahmin' ("brahmin" is a varna, but dunno who invented the term 'brahmin caste').

The mutts of Adi Shankara are Smarthas, who came to exist after Adi Shankara in 800 AD. They are therefore a recent creed and am not sure why you wud like to seek acceptance into the brahmin fold from them.

Am also not sure why you started this thread. Each one of us knows what we are. And each one of us has our chosen path or is searching for a path. Why not go about it quietly? i mean you cud speak abt your views, but am not sure abt the acceptance part.

This is an open forum and on this forum, you can also find individuals with some amount of identity crisis. Am not sure you want replies and acceptance from individuals who may be having an identity crisis themselves.

Best wishes.

 

[Raghy]

Sri Justin,

I am following this thread with interest. Honestly I could not understand your aim. If your aim to understand Advaitham, then what is the need for undergoing Upanayanam, becoming a Brahmana or even becoming a Hindu for that matter? Honestly I am at loss in understanding your priorities.

 

[sapthajihva]

Shri Nara,

Then, what is the purpose of NB brahmanathvam?

In other words, given what you say, namely,

"When such a desire of the athma culminates in a birth, the physical senses too spring forth such a desire."​

why should a jeeva with desire for "brahmanathvam" be born as an NB?

Cheers!

The brahmanathvam is the result of the current aspiration of the jeeva; given its enlightenment, it is bound to happen in one or the other janmas. The end result could be the jeeva attaining moksha in the current janma or attaining a much more favourable birth in the next janma.

The answer to your second query lies in the first. The 'why' to any desire of any athma depends on its purushartha. And choosing this purushartha is purely an individual realization, and sometimes favoured by circumstances. It necessarily need not be in the same janma; but can span several janmas (but of course, you know that).

The athma originally desires for a different goal; and that is the reason why it could be born as an NB, to burn away those desires. But it is also the karma in the current janma which further decides its course. So it could be that a B in the current janma may not attain moksha or a higher status by virtue of its current karma which may be totally abrahmanic, and vice versa for a NB janma.

Regards,

 

[sapthajihva]

Shri Ramansrini,

As per Hinduism, smruthi can be changeable, so we may need to consider discarding some of the dharmasashtras like Manu dharma from Hinduism.

This will clear the mind-set from the people.

Yes, and please could you find someone like Veda Vyasa, Yagnyavalkya or Parasharar to do the required changes.

It will indeed clear the mind-sets of a lot of people.

Regards,

 

[Ramansrini]

Justin,

I apologize if my reply hurts you. In India, we have some social issues regarding caste system. New generation wants to overcome this social issue.

Sapthajihva,

I myself looking for a Guru, but I am not able to find yet. If you read Vivekananda‘s teaching, it clears all your doubts regarding caste system.

 

[sapthajihva]

Sapthajihva,

I myself looking for a Guru, but I am not able to find yet. If you read Vivekananda‘s teaching, it clears all your doubts regarding caste system.

Ah, I see that you have missed the intent in my post...

But thank you for your advice; I am somewhat acquainted with Vivekananda's system of thoughts.

Regards,

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Sapthajihva:

The brahmanathvam is the result of the current aspiration of the jeeva;
[..]
So it could be that a B in the current janma may not attain moksha or a higher status by virtue of its current karma which may be totally abrahmanic, and vice versa for a NB janma.

Then what purpose does birth based varna serve?

Given the lowly state of Shudra varna whose sole purpose of life is servitude to upper castes, what goal would make a jeeva aspire for it whatever the level of enlightenment is?

Cheers!

 

[sapthajihva]

Shri Nara,

Then what purpose does birth based varna serve?

Given the lowly state of Shudra varna whose sole purpose of life is servitude to upper castes, what goal would make a jeeva aspire for it whatever the level of enlightenment is?

Cheers!

The manifestation of the desire of the athma is the purpose.

Nobody prevents a jeeva from attaining moksha or enlightenment, whatever be the birth. Only that the tamasic/rajasic forces would be too great to hinder the development. If individual will is great enough to pierce through this ignorance, that is all is needed.

Regards,

 

[Nara]

Sorry Sapthajihva, I am unable comprehend your answers.

The manifestation of the desire of the athma is the purpose.

Are you saying the reason Varna system exists is for the Athma to desire to be born into a specific Varna?

Nobody prevents a jeeva from attaining moksha or enlightenment, whatever be the birth.

This does not answer my question, viz. why would an Athma want to be born as a Shudra?

Regrads

 

[happyhindu]

Sri Justin,

I am following this thread with interest. Honestly I could not understand your aim. If your aim to understand Advaitham, then what is the need for undergoing Upanayanam, becoming a Brahmana or even becoming a Hindu for that matter? Honestly I am at loss in understanding your priorities.

This is from Raghy to Justin, but am putting this note for Justin.

Justin,

Since you want to follow advaitha, it is better for you to be informed about its tenets.

Here i am mentioning the views of Ekadandis, that is advaitins (advaitha followers) (except those of the 4 (+1) Shankara mutts):

1) Performing upanayanam does not make one a brahmin. It can make one a brahmachari, or one who is on the path to brahmanhood.

2) Brahmin (going by this thread title) is not a status. Brahmin is one who has attained union with brahman. It can be called a state of mind. Union with brahman is what the ekadandis call as moksha or salvation (from which there is no re-birth). Some sects opine that re-birth is possible, but if there is re-birth, then it is only for a specific purpose.

3) Ekadandis are not averse to the concept of avataras. They accept polytheism, monoism, all forms of theism and certain forms of atheism; and accept all souls as divine.

4) Ekadandis are not averse to idol worship, but are usually not into it.

5) Ekadandis do not beleive that ritualism results in union with brahman. They are therefore non-ritualists.

6) Ekadandis believe that dhyana or meditation results in union with brahman. Since there are many types of meditation, some based on concepts and conceptualization, the ekadandis tend to move on to kundalini yoga over time (starting off with physical yoga forms like hatha yoga. Patanjali's yogasutra is an important text). Please note: Kundalini yoga is a form of meditation. And they blank out the mind completely (no concept / conceptualization).

7) All ekadandis are wandering monks with ashrams / mutts as their base (they study there under their guru or gurus and then move on to becoming wandering monks). They may wear the sacred thread during the course of their study. Their curriculum includes both shrutis and smrithis (as well as puranas, etc); and a lot of reasoning and discussions.

Some of their sects know (are taught) to perform yagyas but do not perform them. That is they give up on lighting fire outside the body. If they do wear the thread, then upon sanyasam, all ekadandis (as far as i know) remove the sacred thread. The only belongings that remain with them are the kaupinam, kamandulam, a hand-rest and sometimes a rudraksa mala.

Depending on the sect, the water in the kamandulam is all they usually need for their survival. They may or may not eat. If they eat, it is only by way of seeking bhiksha. Some of them (not all) may seek samadhi. When on the way to seeking samadhi, they give up on their megre belongings, food and water as well.


Addition:
Am not into conversing with sapthajihva. But since you are reading his posts on this thread, just letting you know that his explanations would not be considered valid by the ekadandis. Though in common parlance the ekadandis do refer to priests as 'brahmin priests' (in conversations), the Ekadandis do not consider priests as brahmins. Nor do they consider varna as connected to the occupation (jaati), or rather, they do not consider a child's varna as dependent on the father's occupation (jaati).

Also, to let you know, the purvamimansa ritualists do not seem to consider the soul as seperable from the body. That is where the concept of bodily purity comes in (and perhaps the need for constructing seperate crematoriums). Their basis comes from Jaimini's Mimansa sutra.

Jaimini's mimansa sutra (JMS) is nearly opposite to the brahmasutra. JMS considers rituals subserviant to the self. Originally, the followers of JMS they had no concept of brahman. And they believed that 'devas' need to be appeased with sacrifices. And generally, they do not accept evolution either. They consider that God made Brahma and that they descended from him, a view considered flawed in the way it is understood, by the ekadandis.

The ekadandis consider the whole world are having originated from brahman and all of humanity as rishiputras (that is, from rishis or stars or from hiranyagarba). Amongst Ekadandis, not all sects believe in the concept of gotras. If they do, then the general belief is that all of humanity has some or the other gotra since they have descended from a common set of forefathers. In my observation, the commonest gotra some ekadandis assign (if they do) to their students is Kashyapa, who literally, is considered to be the father of all humankind.

Best wishes.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Shri Justin,

Your descriptions seem contradictory. On the one hand you are talking about in-born and natural inclinations, and on the other you say a brahamana is determined by conduct. If good conduct is a result of in-born qualities and natural inclinations, then is it not a determined by birth? In other words, a person is born as a brahmana or not.

Why should a person of good conduct and character be called a brahmana? What kind of conduct would make a person shudra? Who gets to say who is who?

Why can't we just say he or she is a good person if he/she has good conduct and leave it at that?

In practice the term "brahmana" refers to birth jAthi only. So, when somebody talks about brahamana quality and conduct etc., it is just obfuscation, IMHO.

From your name and what you have been saying, I gather you are a person of non-Indian origin. If this is so, you will never be accepted as a brahmana, you will always be a mlechcha no matter how many upanayanams you get done.

Personally I think all this Varna stuff has no spiritual merit at all. These are of no use to nobody. Be a good person, make merry without hurting anyone, enjoy life, love all. Leave god alone, he has no time for these silly things if he actually exists.

Cheers!

Sri Nara ji,

Very well said...

For me as well it is as simple as you have narrated....

It is the basic fact that we human beings in this generation would never pardon a Brahmin who is anti social and or a foe to us. And with no doubt would make very good friendship with any one in this would irrespective of Religion, Cast and Creed. The bottom line is we would be looking only for good character, behavior and attitude of a person to befriend with.

We follow our cast as Brahmin or Non-Brahmin being born in a family/generation, following the cast. And the responsibility of following the cast’s culture/tradition to the best possible level would be one's wish.

Socially and personally a Brahmin would be considered a Brahmin only and a Non-Brahmin would be considered a Non-Brahmin only irrespective of their individuality and their profession.

 

[sapthajihva]

Shri Nara,

Are you saying the reason Varna system exists is for the Athma to desire to be born into a specific Varna?

It is actually the other way around - Varna system came into being because of athmas being born out of their accrued desires.

This does not answer my question, viz. why would an Athma want to be born as a Shudra?

I did not say that an athma wants to be born as a shudra. There is probably no multiple choice question put before the athma so that it can choose . The birth is a natural result of the karmaphala. The birth varna is the result.

------------------------------------------------------

Where would the birth of an athma be if its janma is to be rajasic? It would be in a rajasic family so that the athma can continue its desired journey. This is the most conducive state, and that is the reason that the varna is prodominantly associated with birth.

Hence the varna of the jeeva is decided by birth; i.e., its purpose for the current janma. That is why the jeevas must be groomed according to the birth inclination. After that, it is a matter of individual will and karma which decide the course.

Please note that I am not talking about intelligence here.

And of course, there could be exceptions, as in every case.

Regards,

 

[happyhindu]

Socially and personally a Brahmin would be considered a Brahmin only and a Non-Brahmin would be considered a Non-Brahmin only irrespective of their individuality and their profession.

This ideology is popular bcoz of only 2 reasons:

1) Purvamimansa ritualists closed the doors of vedapatshalas to everyone else, other than their own children. Its probably the only example of capitalism in the world of spiritualism that survives till date.

2) The reservations policy:
Infact, 'brahmins' have a reason to thank the reservations policy. It is because of it, that they are recognised as 'brahmins' on paper, though they may not be one.

Try removing the above 2, within a few years, what each is considered 'socially' and 'personally' will be gone. Such social attitudes are already on the wane because some vedapatshalas have started admitting children from all strata. And yes, apart from dalits and brahmins, and some orthodox elderly folk from various castes, most people do not really seem to care abt these things. The younger lot certainly does not seem to care. Dreams of success these days are green with just one thing - money.

And in this world of rapid modernization, things will only move forward, no matter how regressive and reactionary some institutions may be. This, ofcourse, is my personal opinion.

Regards.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Justin,

If you are living in India, you stand little chance of being accepted in society as shudras, vysyas, Ksatrias. You have more chance of being accepted as Brahmin, there are many Broad minded people who will embrace you as Brahmin. So all the best.

If you are living outside india, you will stand much better chance for acceptance.

I think you need not worry about reservations and sub-sects of Brahmin.

Your selection of "Brahmin" to practice Sanadhana Dharma (Hinduism) is a very right choice.

Regards

 

[C RAVI]

This ideology is popular bcoz of only 2 reasons:

1) Purvamimansa ritualists closed the doors of vedapatshalas to everyone else, other than their own children. Its probably the only example of capitalism in the world of spiritualism that survives till date.

2) The reservations policy:
Infact, 'brahmins' have a reason to thank the reservations policy. It is because of it, that they are recognised as 'brahmins' on paper, though they may not be one.

Try removing the above 2, within a few years, what each is considered 'socially' and 'personally' will be gone. Such social attitudes are already on the wane because some vedapatshalas have started admitting children from all strata. And yes, apart from dalits and brahmins, and some orthodox elderly folk from various castes, most people do not really seem to care abt these things. The younger lot certainly does not seem to care. Dreams of success these days are green with just one thing - money.

And in this world of rapid modernization, things will only move forward, no matter how regressive and reactionary some institutions may be. This, ofcourse, is my personal opinion.

Regards.

Sri, Happy Hindu ji,

Absolutely perfect.....as far as I am concerned , I agree with your views.

More or less same views of mine, I have posted (before going through your post here) in an another thread as my comments to a subject - Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

 

[pbkhema]

Right from the days of the vedas Brahmins are not Brahmins bybirth alone.e/g Visvamitra.
The persons conduct is the one to decide and that was the intention of the original Hindu(sic Vedic?) people.But during centuried in the 400-500 ce when Budhism and jainisam were strong the compilation of Smritis attributed to Manu came giving birth a prominent place and it was followed by all the lter (and was there in some earlier)Smritis
A person is a Brahmin by conduct and not by birth alone.I dont mean just byy doing Sandyavandanam etc. But being intelectual and living out of his brains and not by wealth