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Brahma Sutras

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Dear Sravna, I used the word "supreme consciousness" (not blissful consciousness) since I have seen people like you using it; those are not my firm views but just posers. If you ask me, I would say that there is no consciousness without the state of "I", then whence the bliss?

If you say that brahman is not affected by maya but only we jeevas, then it means that we are different from brahman. Is it not?

Dear Auh,

Good point. But I think brahman doesn't need to have the word "I" in its vocabulary because it is the only reality. In that sense I do not think it is an "I" that we normally nurture.

Think of it. When one is said to be free from ego, one is free from the effects of maya and becomes one with brahman. Then how can brahman be affected by maya. Jivas represent a different level of reality, a transient reality and for that period the jivas think they are different from brahman and they think that way because they are affected by maya.
 
Dear Sravna,

It appears you are now stuck with Maya and is unable to move ahead. Why start on Maya at all? Leave it aside and speak about what else Brahmasutra has to say and what Sankara has to say. Presume there is nothing called maya and move ahead (if it is difficult for you to do that you may take it that you have said whatever you wanted to say about maya and leave it at that). Let us know what you have to say about Brahmasutra and Sankara bhashyam. If it is going to be more of a confused presentation of ideas I will be disappointed.

Dear Shri Vaagmi,

I understand your point. But the nature of the discussions is that it is interactive and I need to address the queries raised by members. But I do plan to start on brahma sutra proper. Thanks for your patience.
 
Dear Raghy,

I expected the gardener to stay, put up with all the confusion and yet gain something. I thought just as he is good with seeds, weeds, spades and hoses he would be good with filters too to pick just the signals from the clutter-signal mixup. It appears that is not to be the case. LOL.

Dear Vaagmi,

The gardener did not want to leave altogether. Wanted to stay back, but still wanted to follow the discussion. Thanks for your encouragement once again. The gardener would take part in the discussion to learn. Initially he wanted to stay back only to give room for other learned persons to take part since the gardener knows he is not learned.

Cheers!
 
Dear Sir,

You seem to differentiate between an egoistic state and an egoless state as the solution to a perceived problem of maya. But then, this leads to another conundrum. How can a pure unblemished egoless consciousness become affected (or corrupted) by maya? Why did the egoless consciousness (or brahman, if you like) compartmentalize itself into sub-units and then bemoan the situation? Why should it then attempt to break free?

If there is something called maya that can cloud the supreme consciousness, then maya must be the brahman... so we atmas being immersed in maya = being immersed in brahmanandam...

Regards,

Dear Auh,

Kindly don't confuse with egoless state and egoistic state. Isolating "I" has nothing to do with ego. Ego is there; "I" gets isolated. It is the question of attachment.

Will get back to you in detail.

Cheers!
 
....
That book also included the commentary of Ramanuja where he defined:

Own Dharma = Karma Yoga

Another's Dharma =Jnana Yoga.

Ok now I guess cos Ramanuja was Bhakti based hence he decided to define it that way.
I know a thing or two about Ramanuja's teachings, I can say without hesitation that he does not say anywhere that another's dharma is jnana yoga.

Thanks ....
 
I know a thing or two about Ramanuja's teachings, I can say without hesitation that he does not say anywhere that another's dharma is jnana yoga.

Thanks ....

Dear Nara ji,

The book I was talking about is Gita Pravesha Published by Samskrita Bharati Mata Mandir Gali Jhandewala New Delhi.
The book is fully in Sanskrit with no English translation.
The opinion is given in point form.

It stated below the Shloka:

रामनुजीयमतम् (ramanujiyamatam) ... स्वधर्मः = कर्मयोगः (svadharma =karmayoga)
परधर्मः = ज्ञानयोगः (paradharma =jnanayoga)


Yes..this is the first time I am reading something like this and this surprised me too.

If this is not correct than let me know I will email Samskrita Bharati about this error.
 
Dear Auh,

Kindly don't confuse with egoless state and egoistic state. Isolating "I" has nothing to do with ego. Ego is there; "I" gets isolated. It is the question of attachment.

Will get back to you in detail.

Cheers!
Now "I" am confused :) - if "I" is not atma and neither the ego then what is it? I know you would say maya, but that would be incorrect as the viewpoint held is that "I" becomes due to maya!
 
...

Think of it. When one is said to be free from ego, one is free from the effects of maya and becomes one with brahman. Then how can brahman be affected by maya. Jivas represent a different level of reality, a transient reality and for that period the jivas think they are different from brahman and they think that way because they are affected by maya.
Becoming brahman and being brahman are two different things.

If jiva is brahman (it doesn't matter at what stage) then it can never be affected by maya or illusion. Why would an entity that alone exists attempt to delude itself?

If maya affects brahman due to which brahman gets deluded into thinking that it is a jiva, then maya and brahman are different and maya is more powerful than brahman, and in which case brahman ceases to be so (because brahman should be all powerful).

Different levels of reality can exist only if different perspectives are included, and by its very inclusion, it establishes that there are more than one entity existing, and thus the belief that brahman is the only one should dissolve.
 
Dear Shri Raghy and Shri Auh,

Good questions. From my understanding of advaita, maya is the projection of brahman but itself projects the physical world. Since maya is only a projection it is not identical with brahman . But even though it is illusory because of its absence in the ultimate reality, it has the powers to create the physical world just as jivas which are illusory in nature have in their limited ways the power to create.

I seem to have a severe problem in understanding this. Let me analyze this in different terms.

1) You say that brahman projects maya and maya projects the world. It is like A is related to B and B is related to C. Then it follows that A is related to C. So brahman has projected the world.

2) What exactly is projection? Are any raw materials required for this projection? If you mean that projection is imagination, why should brahman imagine in such a grotesque fashion?

3) How can maya be illusory and at the same time be a projection of brahman? It appears contradictory!

4) How can maya which itself is illusory have powers to create another illusion, i.e., the world and the jivas?

5) You mean to say that brahman "projects" maya, and maya "creates" (out of what?) the world and jivas, and jivas which by themselves are illusory have the power to further create... All these do not sync.

If everything is illusory we need not have courts, morals, norms etc etc. as everything is an illusion at best. Can you pls clarify the above points?

Ravi, since you also seem to hold the same view as Sravna, you can also attempt to clarify the above.
 
I seem to have a severe problem in understanding this. Let me analyze this in different terms.

1) You say that brahman projects maya and maya projects the world. It is like A is related to B and B is related to C. Then it follows that A is related to C. So brahman has projected the world.

2) What exactly is projection? Are any raw materials required for this projection? If you mean that projection is imagination, why should brahman imagine in such a grotesque fashion?

3) How can maya be illusory and at the same time be a projection of brahman? It appears contradictory!

4) How can maya which itself is illusory have powers to create another illusion, i.e., the world and the jivas?

5) You mean to say that brahman "projects" maya, and maya "creates" (out of what?) the world and jivas, and jivas which by themselves are illusory have the power to further create... All these do not sync.

If everything is illusory we need not have courts, morals, norms etc etc. as everything is an illusion at best. Can you pls clarify the above points?

Ravi, since you also seem to hold the same view as Sravna, you can also attempt to clarify the above.

Dear Shri Auh,

There is this concept of nirguma brahman in advaita. It is beyond space and time and beyond action and thoughts. Since it is beyond actions, for the world to be existing there needs to be an intermediary, something that initiates actions such as creation. There comes the concept of maya as something that automatically emanates from nirguna brahman. It is illusory in the sense it does not exist from the perspective of nirguna brahman or the ultimate reality. They are two different levels of reality. Maya we have to assume has the powers to project brahman as many

The physical world is said to be relatively real when compared with nirguna brahman which is the ultimate real thing.
 
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What I am writing below may not be acceptable to many. But the whole complication with Sankara's advaitam is most probably due to the fact that He (i.e., Sankara) had to abide by the authority of the vedas and the major Upanishads of His times and this made it necessary for him to start from the top downwards - i.e., from a single extra-super, pure Consciousness which he termed Parabrahman - and then come down to the mortals and the world which they imagine they are inhabiting.

If, on the contrary, Sankara had started from the mortals, their AtmAs or jeevas and built upwards, perhaps it would have been a comparatively simple (and not "simplistic", I hope) advaita.

For instance all living entities including humans think that each of them have an individuality or "I"ness and the feeling of "I", "mine", etc. Whence does this emanate, and when the living entity 'dies' (and is no longer alive, except for a dead body which rots if not suitably disposed of, what happens to the feeling of this "I"ness? AFA our human ability today can understand, all the hullabaloo about "I" and "mine" etc., also die or come to a complete end. This is true for an ant as also for an elephant and also for a human being, however great or learned or mighty or rich or brave he/she might have been while alive. The whole drama ends or the chapter is closed— for ever. (Incidentally, this is true of even the great Acharyas, other godmen/godwomen etc.) For a person who can think with equanimity and in a dispassionate manner, this very basic and routine worldly truth, it will not require much of weighty philosophical discussions to understand that this world, this universe and everything that looked so very real must have completely vanished for every one who has been dead.

Our "ego" or the feeling of "I" ness is, however, so strong that humans have constantly rebelled against accepting this simple fact that all these phenomena of "I" and the universe was nothing more than a mirage for each of those dead persons, a cinema-show which lasts for a few decades. In this effort, human imagination has built many wonderful stories like ātmās, pitṛs, pitṛloka, punarjanma (transmigration of the ātmā or soul) etc., and has succeeded in establishing, to a very great extent, with the help of religions of various kinds, all or some of these beliefs, so that Man's quest for immortality is achieved, may be in a vicarious way.

In reality, there is no reason whatsoever to subscribe to any of the things referred to above. What we know and see, is that each one has the feeling of "I" & "mine" and this is the root cause of happiness and suffering in this worldly life. After experiencing happiness and suffering to varying degrees all of us die and there the story ends; the "I" does not continue to exist. (At least we have no evidence to the contrary.) The dead body is just perishable organic matter and by itself, has no "I" feeling. Looked at from this perspective the self or "I"-feeling, this world, this universe, all are mere transient phenomena for each one of us. But somehow we are unable to accept this knowledge and implement it in our lifetime. This is what is truly māyā.

If we build upwards from this basic level, we will find that this māyā is born as soon as life manifests in a body (foetus, in the case of humans probably, but in any case, right from the moment of 'birth') and pursues them till the moment of death. Hence, there is no point at all in talking about 'getting rid of māyā' etc.

What then is the substratum for all such manifestation? That has to be one and the same because all living beings are identical in the aspects aforesaid. It is this sub-stratum which is real and may be the equivalent of Parabrahman of Advaita. Since this is one and not more than one, it is ekaṃ evādvitīyam (one and not having a second). Thus we arrive at advaita.

Buddhism, especially Theravada Buddhism, gives a good account of anicca or impermanence, of everything in this universe. Gaudapada possibly was convinced of this and hence concluded (wisely, according to me) that—

"There is no dissolution, no origination, none in bondage, none possessed of the means of liberation, none desirous of liberation, and none liberated. This is the ultimate truth. — Verse 2.32, Mandukya Karikaa"

திருமூலர் (tirumūlar) also says much the same thing (as the Buddha) in this verse:

உள்ளம் பெருங்கொவில் ஊனுடம்பு ஆலையம்
வள்ளல் பிரானுக்கு வாய் கோபுரவாசல்
தெள்ளத்தெளிந்தார்க்கு சீவன் சிவலிங்கம்
கள்ளப்புலன் ஐந்தும் காணா மணிவிளக்கே


(uḷḷam peruṅkovil ūṉuṭampu ālaiyam
vaḷḷal pirāṉukku vāy kopuravācal
teḷḷatteḷintārkku cīvaṉ civaliṅkam
kaḷḷappulaṉ aintum kāṇā maṇiviḷakke)
 
Becoming brahman and being brahman are two different things.

If jiva is brahman (it doesn't matter at what stage) then it can never be affected by maya or illusion. Why would an entity that alone exists attempt to delude itself?

If maya affects brahman due to which brahman gets deluded into thinking that it is a jiva, then maya and brahman are different and maya is more powerful than brahman, and in which case brahman ceases to be so (because brahman should be all powerful).

Different levels of reality can exist only if different perspectives are included, and by its very inclusion, it establishes that there are more than one entity existing, and thus the belief that brahman is the only one should dissolve.

Dear Shri Auh,

Brahman itself is never affected by maya but the jivas created by maya are. If you ask me why jivas are created, then I would say that is the way reality is. The spiritual reality of brahman and the physical reality both exist but the latter is transient and comes into and goes out of existence in a continuous manner due to the act of maya. The entities in the physical reality do not stay forever otherwise they can also be called a reality on par with brahman. So where do they go? They become one with brahman being brahman in essence.
 
Dear Shri Auh,

There is this concept of nirguma brahman in advaita. It is beyond space and time and beyond action and thoughts. Since it is beyond actions, for the world to be existing there needs to be an intermediary, something that initiates actions such as creation. There comes the concept of maya as something that automatically emanates from nirguna brahman. It is illusory in the sense it does not exist from the perspective of nirguna brahman or the ultimate reality. They are two different levels of reality. Maya we have to assume has the powers to project brahman as many

The physical world is said to be relatively real when compared with nirguna brahman which is the ultimate real thing.

Dear Sravna,

Your post is contradictory. Why does a brahman which is beyond action and thoughts need to create? If there is a need being felt by brahman, then we cannot say that it is beyond action and thought. But if it is not beyond action then why should it require an intermediary? Perplexing of all is that brahman creates something called maya which is an illusion from the perspective of brahman itself - does it not sound strange to you? If maya can automatically emanate from brahman then does it not mean that maya can act independently of brahman?

Again, if you say that there are two levels of reality, then there must be more than one perspective, and brahman is not the ultimate reality.
 
Dear Shri Auh,

Brahman itself is never affected by maya but the jivas created by maya are. If you ask me why jivas are created, then I would say that is the way reality is. The spiritual reality of brahman and the physical reality both exist but the latter is transient and comes into and goes out of existence in a continuous manner due to the act of maya. The entities in the physical reality do not stay forever otherwise they can also be called a reality on par with brahman. So where do they go? They become one with brahman being brahman in essence.

If physical reality (according to you) exists continuously then how come it is only relatively real?

Your answers are not satisfactory to me and my queries have not been clarified properly. I feel that you are skipping many queries and selecting ones that you want to answer.
 
....What we know and see, is that each one has the feeling of "I" & "mine" and this is the root cause of happiness and suffering in this worldly life. After experiencing happiness and suffering to varying degrees all of us die and there the story ends; the "I" does not continue to exist. (At least we have no evidence to the contrary.) The dead body is just perishable organic matter and by itself, has no "I" feeling. Looked at from this perspective the self or "I"-feeling, this world, this universe, all are mere transient phenomena for each one of us. But somehow we are unable to accept this knowledge and implement it in our lifetime. This is what is truly māyā.

[snip]

What then is the substratum for all such manifestation? That has to be one and the same because all living beings are identical in the aspects aforesaid. It is this sub-stratum which is real and may be the equivalent of Parabrahman of Advaita. Since this is one and not more than one, it is ekaṃ evādvitīyam (one and not having a second). Thus we arrive at advaita.....
Dear Sangom, I do agree with much of what you have written, however, I feel near the end your post your arguments sound like reverse engineering your views back into Advaitam?

IMHO, Adi Shankara also had to do some reverse engineering to convince his Buddhist opponents. The brilliant logician that he was he was able to convince enough people, at least for a period of time. But that was his undoing, he tied his arguments to the Vedas and there is way too many Vedic declarations that directly contradict Advaitam.

Another interesting question of the "I" feeling you talk about, one that you correctly infer ceases to exist upon death, is, when does it arise? Does it arise after a few weeks of gestation in the womb, or does it arise upon birth, or does it gradually emerge as the brain blossoms to full functionality? I would argue that it is the last.

We can clearly observe that at the time of birth the fetus has only rudimentary awareness, perhaps limited only to comfort and discomfort in addition to certain instinctive urges bestowed via the genes. Only through development of the brain which leads to the cognitive functions taking shape over time does the child develop the "I" awareness or consciousness. So, the "I" consciousness or what is widely asserted as jIva, soul, etc., is nothing more than brain's fully functioning cognition. Upon death this functionality ceases to exist and no more "I", no more jIva, no more soul.

I feel there is no rational need or explanation to make up things like maya, Brahman, ekaṃ evādvitīyam, relative reality, spirituality, and scores of other imaginary concepts. When they do, it is akin to arguments about what the nature of reality of the building materials used in an imaginary castle built in an imaginary world.

best regards ....
 
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What I am writing below may not be acceptable to many. But the whole complication with Sankara's advaitam is most probably due to the fact that He (i.e., Sankara) had to abide by the authority of the vedas and the major Upanishads of His times and this made it necessary for him to start from the top downwards - i.e., from a single extra-super, pure Consciousness which he termed Parabrahman - and then come down to the mortals and the world which they imagine they are inhabiting.

If, on the contrary, Sankara had started from the mortals, their AtmAs or jeevas and built upwards, perhaps it would have been a comparatively simple (and not "simplistic", I hope) advaita.

For instance all living entities including humans think that each of them have an individuality or "I"ness and the feeling of "I", "mine", etc. Whence does this emanate, and when the living entity 'dies' (and is no longer alive, except for a dead body which rots if not suitably disposed of, what happens to the feeling of this "I"ness? AFA our human ability today can understand, all the hullabaloo about "I" and "mine" etc., also die or come to a complete end. This is true for an ant as also for an elephant and also for a human being, however great or learned or mighty or rich or brave he/she might have been while alive. The whole drama ends or the chapter is closed— for ever. (Incidentally, this is true of even the great Acharyas, other godmen/godwomen etc.) For a person who can think with equanimity and in a dispassionate manner, this very basic and routine worldly truth, it will not require much of weighty philosophical discussions to understand that this world, this universe and everything that looked so very real must have completely vanished for every one who has been dead.

Our "ego" or the feeling of "I" ness is, however, so strong that humans have constantly rebelled against accepting this simple fact that all these phenomena of "I" and the universe was nothing more than a mirage for each of those dead persons, a cinema-show which lasts for a few decades. In this effort, human imagination has built many wonderful stories like ātmās, pitṛs, pitṛloka, punarjanma (transmigration of the ātmā or soul) etc., and has succeeded in establishing, to a very great extent, with the help of religions of various kinds, all or some of these beliefs, so that Man's quest for immortality is achieved, may be in a vicarious way.

In reality, there is no reason whatsoever to subscribe to any of the things referred to above. What we know and see, is that each one has the feeling of "I" & "mine" and this is the root cause of happiness and suffering in this worldly life. After experiencing happiness and suffering to varying degrees all of us die and there the story ends; the "I" does not continue to exist. (At least we have no evidence to the contrary.) The dead body is just perishable organic matter and by itself, has no "I" feeling. Looked at from this perspective the self or "I"-feeling, this world, this universe, all are mere transient phenomena for each one of us. But somehow we are unable to accept this knowledge and implement it in our lifetime. This is what is truly māyā.

If we build upwards from this basic level, we will find that this māyā is born as soon as life manifests in a body (foetus, in the case of humans probably, but in any case, right from the moment of 'birth') and pursues them till the moment of death. Hence, there is no point at all in talking about 'getting rid of māyā' etc.

What then is the substratum for all such manifestation? That has to be one and the same because all living beings are identical in the aspects aforesaid. It is this sub-stratum which is real and may be the equivalent of Parabrahman of Advaita. Since this is one and not more than one, it is ekaṃ evādvitīyam (one and not having a second). Thus we arrive at advaita.

Buddhism, especially Theravada Buddhism, gives a good account of anicca or impermanence, of everything in this universe. Gaudapada possibly was convinced of this and hence concluded (wisely, according to me) that—

"There is no dissolution, no origination, none in bondage, none possessed of the means of liberation, none desirous of liberation, and none liberated. This is the ultimate truth. — Verse 2.32, Mandukya Karikaa"

திருமூலர் (tirumūlar) also says much the same thing (as the Buddha) in this verse:

உள்ளம் பெருங்கொவில் ஊனுடம்பு ஆலையம்
வள்ளல் பிரானுக்கு வாய் கோபுரவாசல்
தெள்ளத்தெளிந்தார்க்கு சீவன் சிவலிங்கம்
கள்ளப்புலன் ஐந்தும் காணா மணிவிளக்கே


(uḷḷam peruṅkovil ūṉuṭampu ālaiyam
vaḷḷal pirāṉukku vāy kopuravācal
teḷḷatteḷintārkku cīvaṉ civaliṅkam
kaḷḷappulaṉ aintum kāṇā maṇiviḷakke)

When we have a question or a theory specifically in topics of this kind it is more of a statement about us.

In order to answer a question - again only in this topic area- one has to answer the questioner. There is a difference ..If one reads the works of Sri Ramana Maharishi one can see how he answers the questioner..

Hence forums of this kind can never provide satisfactory answers in my view.

However it is fun for everyone to put forward their theories and discuss..
 
What is the change you are referring to, please? Can you please be a little more elaborate?

By change I mean the quality of impermanence of things we perceive around us - the inherent quality of things (and this universe) to keep on changing (or transforming or recycling), whether they be living or non living. Due to this change what we see today is not, tomorrow, and hence the illusion effect is a result of such change.

I also feel that such a change must be the inherent quality of nature or whatever common thing that encompasses and yet forms the substrate for all things; change itself being inseparable from such substrate (or force or energy or prana). If we were to follow this line of reasoning, then it follows that there must be "material" for such change, in addition to "knowledge" (?) of/for such change.

By material I mean that there must be a gross matter that undergoes transformation (change).

Existence of Knowledge is debatable as the substrate may not have "active" (by active I mean controlling) knowledge of such change but only awareness of change and its effects. Various levels of awareness permeates itself into matter and experiences this change continuously. Higher the level of awareness, higher the level of experience and knowledge of things. So, an advaitic type brahman cannot exist.

So we might have an energy field, gross matter, and awareness (that manifests itself at various levels) to go along with it.

Just my musings.
 
Dear Sangom, I do agree with much of what you have written, however, I feel near the end your post your arguments sound like reverse engineering your views back into Advaitam?

IMHO, Adi Shankara also had to do some reverse engineering to convince his Buddhist opponents. The brilliant logician that he was he was able to convince enough people, at least for a period of time. But that was his undoing, he tied his arguments to the Vedas and there is way too many Vedic declarations that directly contradict Advaitam.

Another interesting question of the "I" feeling you talk about, one that you correctly infer ceases to exist upon death, is, when does it arise? Does it arise after a few weeks of gestation in the womb, or does it arise upon birth, or does it gradually emerge as the brain blossoms to full functionality? I would argue that it is the last.

We can clearly observe that at the time of birth the fetus has only rudimentary awareness, perhaps limited only to comfort and discomfort in addition to certain instinctive urges bestowed via the genes. Only through development of the brain which leads to the cognitive functions taking shape over time does the child develop the "I" awareness or consciousness. So, the "I" consciousness or what is widely asserted as jIva, soul, etc., is nothing more than brain's fully functioning cognition. Upon death this functionality ceases to exist and no more "I", no more jIva, no more soul.

I feel there is no rational need or explanation to make up things like maya, Brahman, ekaṃ evādvitīyam, relative reality, spirituality, and scores of other imaginary concepts. When they do, it is akin to arguments about what the nature of reality of the building materials used in an imaginary castle built in an imaginary world.

best regards ....

Dear Nara,

I cannot say whether the baby starts "kicking" after the full brain development or before that. Perhaps Dr. Renuka is the best authority here. But it looks as though the foetus can differentiate between comfortable and uncomfortable surroundings of even the ambiotic sac right from the second trimester. Adverse conditions in the alimentary system of the mother are reportedly reacted to by the growing foetus right from that stage and that is why our old womenfolk restrict the pregnant woman's food habits as soon as her 'pica' period gets over, I am told.

What you consider as my reverse engineering attempt is necessary, imo, not because I am eager to support advaitam, but because I personally feel that there must be some universal law or principle underlying the observed phenomena of life and death and the "I" consciousness that is exhibited during the period of living; it just cannot be a random occurrence on such a large scale on a very similar - if not identical - basis. Hence my supposition that there has to be one underlying substrate for all the life systems that we observe in this world. It naturally leads one to propose one entity which perhaps is the only reality and what we call as life is but a mere manifestation of that substrate. Since Life itself is transient, the mirage-like universe and all the rest of the experiences which appears to the living entity as real, are also necessarily transient. Our inability to understand this truth is what Sankara calls māyā.

For an atheist, it may be OK to start and stop with brain, but since there are single-celled organisms which do not have any brain (or even nervous system) I don't think we can postulate the "I" ness characteristic of "Life" in its widest sense to brain or to any other body part of a mammal.
 
...I cannot say whether the baby starts "kicking" after the full brain development or before that.

[snip]

For an atheist, it may be OK to start and stop with brain, but since there are single-celled organisms which do not have any brain (or even nervous system) I don't think we can postulate the "I" ness characteristic of "Life" in its widest sense to brain or to any other body part of a mammal.
Dear Sangom, my arguments were about the "I" sensation, not involuntary kicking or the mere survive and multiply urge of all living beings from single cell entities to the advanced primate species. My argument is that the "I" cognizance is nothing but what appears as magic arising out of the workings of a complex brain. The conscious mind is nothing more than a functioning of a complex brain. Employing the principle of Occam's razor, I opt for this more straight forward reasoning free of anything imaginary. It is because I find this reasoning persuasive I find atheism persuasive, not the other way around as you have stated.

regrads ...
 
........Another interesting question of the "I" feeling you talk about, one that you correctly infer ceases to exist upon death, is, when does it arise? Does it arise after a few weeks of gestation in the womb, or does it arise upon birth, or does it gradually emerge as the brain blossoms to full functionality? I would argue that it is the last.

We can clearly observe that at the time of birth the fetus has only rudimentary awareness, perhaps limited only to comfort and discomfort in addition to certain instinctive urges bestowed via the genes. Only through development of the brain which leads to the cognitive functions taking shape over time does the child develop the "I" awareness or consciousness. So, the "I" consciousness or what is widely asserted as jIva, soul, etc., is nothing more than brain's fully functioning cognition.
Upon death this functionality ceases to exist and no more "I", no more jIva, no more soul.

I feel there is no rational need or explanation to make up things like maya, Brahman, ekaṃ evādvitīyam, relative reality, spirituality, and scores of other imaginary concepts. When they do, it is akin to arguments about what the nature of reality of the building materials used in an imaginary castle built in an imaginary world.

best regards ....

Dear Sangom, my arguments were about the "I" sensation, not involuntary kicking or the mere survive and multiply urge of all living beings from single cell entities to the advanced primate species. My argument is that the "I" cognizance is nothing but what appears as magic arising out of the workings of a complex brain. The conscious mind is nothing more than a functioning of a complex brain. Employing the principle of Occam's razor, I opt for this more straight forward reasoning free of anything imaginary. It is because I find this reasoning persuasive I find atheism persuasive, not the other way around as you have stated.

regrads ...


"I" arises the moment the life begins in the womb, i.e at Fertilization. But at this point of time and till certain point of time after the birth, this "I" remains in a very subtle form, subconsciously.

Right at the time of Fertilization, when the life begins, the Soul acquires the formation and the "I" grips.

As the child takes birth and starts growing, the "I" develops to gain its potential from the most subtle form and we can find a child mindset revolving around the "Self"/"I".

The level of Selfishness / "I" priorities depends on the level of spiritual evolution of the Soul, that is still bound to get gripped by Maya while living the present life.

Thus, the more a person gets inclined to Spirituality, righteousness, inner consciousness and attempts to over come the fragile emotions, feelings, yearnings, needs for the self at other's cost etc.etc, the Soul succeeds in winning over the dominant "I" that is operating under the influence of Maya, and proceeds towards higher level of spiritual evolution.



Atheism strongly holds on "I" - "I am with my "I", as such I am living my life having my "I", I do this-I do that-I need this/I don't need this-I like this/dislike this etc..etc.. I am with my "I" as a mere human to live my life. As long as I am a good human with my moral goodness and righteousness etc. with my "I" and living my life with my "I", I don't need to fear and hate holding on my "I". Because, my "I" is what I need to make my living with all my experiences and this "I" is what I am. Thus, I need not to believe in Spirituality and try to get rid of this "I" based on such illogical, unreasonable and unjustifiable Spirituality. "I" exist in synch. with the Nature and sense of humanity and there is nothing beyond this. As such, Spirituality is humbug and Theism is senseless."

The above is very much fine as much as Theism is fine. Because, the above with the strong inclination towards "I" is what been offered to Humans to go through the life time experiences. This "I"/"Soul" gonna have its positive and negative impacts/karmas only based on its actions and reactions (deeds) no matter if it believes and follows spirituality or not.

Theism believes in Spiritual energies, realizes its potential, realizes the weakness of "I" and attempts towards get rid of this dominant "I" along with working towards being righteous, so that the soul achieves the best of the refinement and proceeds towards higher level of spiritual evolution. All these with the desires and expectations to be reduced with the "n" numbers of rebirths and get liberated.

 
"I" arises the moment the life begins in the womb, i.e at Fertilization.

[snip]

Theism believes in Spiritual energies, realizes its potential, realizes the weakness of "I" and attempts towards get rid of this dominant "I" along with working towards being righteous, so that the soul achieves the best of the refinement and proceeds towards higher level of spiritual evolution. All these with the desires and expectations to be reduced with the "n" numbers of rebirths and get liberated.

Thanks Ravi for responding to my two posts, however I think we are in two different tracks and any dialog will only be talking past each other.

best wishes ....
 
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