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Brahma Sutras

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What this Brahma-vidyA is and how it works, have not been explained. If there is something called Brahma-vidyA which makes the incomprehensible (see post # 17), then brahman is no longer beyond human comprehension and that statement becomes false, does it not?

If, as you say, "recognizing maya is the same as recognizing brahman" it means that brahman and mAyA are identical; this again cuts at the root of advaita !

The term brahma vidya is contained in the source that lists the objections of Ramanuja. I assume it is self realization. Brahman is incomprehensible only as long as we are under the sway of maya. We all finally overcome it. By recognizing maya I meant understanding that maya is an illusion.
 
Ramanuja's fourth objection:

The locus of Avidya: Where is the Avidya that gives rise to the (false) impression of the reality of the perceived world? There are two possibilities; it could be Brahman's Avidya or the individual soul's {jiva.} Neither is possible. Brahman is knowledge; Avidya cannot co-exist as an attribute with a nature utterly incompatible with it. Nor can the individual soul be the locus of Avidya: the existence of the individual soul is due to Avidya; this would lead to a vicious circle

My Views: Since maya itself is illusory, the question of locus does not arise.

Even though one may say mAyA is illusory, it has its effect which manifests in the individual soul or jiva and this "effect" is not illusory, it is for real. Hence, even an illusory mAyA has to have its origin and a specific locus. It may look very wiseacre to make remarls like "Since maya itself is illusory, the question of locus does not arise.", etc., but even illusions have to have a cause or origin just like we say optical illusions and ascribe those kinds of illusions to the imperfections of our human sight system. mAyA, if, independent of both brahman and everything else, becomes another reality in its own right and hence Brahman is no longer the only absolute Truth; mAyA and brahman thus become, two absolute Truths, thus again showing off the flaws in advaita.

It was this "locus of mAyA" business which, I think, gave rise to different schools of interpretation (such a bhAmati,vivarana etc., up to the Sachidanandendra Saraswati school), differences and arguments within advaita itself. Kindly brush up these aspects also. IMO, Sankara failed in giving a clear idea of whatever he meant, even to his four immediate followers and, as a result thereof, even these immediate followers went on to justify and explain away their guru's teachings, each his own way. This exposes the deficiency of Sankara's exposition of whatever his ideas were, as also flaws in whatever he expressed as a lofty philosophy.
 
The term brahma vidya is contained in the source that lists the objections of Ramanuja. I assume it is self realization. Brahman is incomprehensible only as long as we are under the sway of maya. We all finally overcome it. By recognizing maya I meant understanding that maya is an illusion.

"assume" is not a clear enough answer. The rest is all just imagination, that "we all finally overcome it."

If brahman is incomprehensible on a conditional basis (as long as we are under the sway of mAyA), then the first thing one has to do is to remove this 'sway of mAyA'; does the brahma vidyA provide for this?

If mAyA is illusory and beyond human comprehension, how can now it be said that "I meant understanding that mAyA is an illusion" when, in the first case one cannot even comprehend mAyA?
 


Even though one may say mAyA is illusory, it has its effect which manifests in the individual soul or jiva and this "effect" is not illusory, it is for real. Hence, even an illusory mAyA has to have its origin and a specific locus. It may look very wiseacre to make remarls like "Since maya itself is illusory, the question of locus does not arise.", etc., but even illusions have to have a cause or origin just like we say optical illusions and ascribe those kinds of illusions to the imperfections of our human sight system. mAyA, if, independent of both brahman and everything else, becomes another reality in its own right and hence Brahman is no longer the only absolute Truth; mAyA and brahman thus become, two absolute Truths, thus again showing off the flaws in advaita.

It was this "locus of mAyA" business which, I think, gave rise to different schools of interpretation (such a bhAmati,vivarana etc., up to the Sachidanandendra Saraswati school), differences and arguments within advaita itself. Kindly brush up these aspects also. IMO, Sankara failed in giving a clear idea of whatever he meant, even to his four immediate followers and, as a result thereof, even these immediate followers went on to justify and explain away their guru's teachings, each his own way. This exposes the deficiency of Sankara's exposition of whatever his ideas were, as also flaws in whatever he expressed as a lofty philosophy.

Dear Shri Sangom,

If you want to specify the source for it , it has to be the brahman. But it is not real in the sense it does not reside in or affect brahman. It only produces further illusions and your description of these effects as real is only for the jivas under its influence. Realized souls do not have "real effects" due to maya.
 
Dear Shri Auh,

When we are self realized we become unfettered. If you are unfettered you are one with brahman. So there is no question of incomprehensibility at that point. Both maya and brahman being incomprehensible when we are fettered doesn't mean that brahman is not one.
Dear Sravna,

How do you categorically assert that we become unfettered on self-realization? If brahman cannot be comprehended, then you cannot say that "x" or "y" status will enable one to realize brahman.

Unless of course, you assume that self realization is equal to realizing brahman, and assume that the incomprehensible brahman as well as the incomprehensible maya would be comprehended in such a realized state, whatever that may be.

Of course, it goes without saying that we also have to assume what self realization is...
 


"assume" is not a clear enough answer. The rest is all just imagination, that "we all finally overcome it."

If brahman is incomprehensible on a conditional basis (as long as we are under the sway of mAyA), then the first thing one has to do is to remove this 'sway of mAyA'; does the brahma vidyA provide for this?

If mAyA is illusory and beyond human comprehension, how can now it be said that "I meant understanding that mAyA is an illusion" when, in the first case one cannot even comprehend mAyA?

Your experiences in the physical world make you progress towards brahman and finally at one point after sufficient progress become self realized. At that point you simultaneously realize that brahman is the only reality and the physical world and even the maya are illusions.

Btw , I understood the term brahma vidya based on context. I understand that it is the study of the scriptures with the aim towards realizing the ultimate reality. I think my understanding was correct.
 
Dear Sravna,

How do you categorically assert that we become unfettered on self-realization? If brahman cannot be comprehended, then you cannot say that "x" or "y" status will enable one to realize brahman.

Unless of course, you assume that self realization is equal to realizing brahman, and assume that the incomprehensible brahman as well as the incomprehensible maya would be comprehended in such a realized state, whatever that may be.

Of course, it goes without saying that we also have to assume what self realization is...

Dear Shri Auh,

I think it is more than an assumption. It is based on the experiences of the self realized souls. Of course we have to make the assumption that what they experience is the reality. But I think the argument is not that. We take that and some others as truths and only try to say consistent statements.
 
My Views: Recognizing maya is the same as recognizing brahman and once you recognize brahman, you recognize maya i.e., maya disappears. So by brahma vidya which is recognition of brahman one automatically is able to view maya from a higher level as something which grips the jivas.

Dear Sravna,

This does not translate as Advaita..cos no one ever knows Maya.

No one really knows the beginning or end of Maya and it isn't even a pre requisite to discover Maya before knowing Brahman..the take home point of the day is "Getting to know Brahman and NOT Maya"

I had read before these are the steps that lead to the cessation of Maya.


When the objective world is ignored,set aside,denied or discovered to be immanent in the Divine,the jeeva is no more.
Easwara(personalized God) is also superflous and disappears.And when the Easwara has faded out,the Brahman alone is.
When a personalized God,jeeva and prakrithi(the objective world) are non existent in the developed consciousness of man,Maya the progenitor of all three cannot persists.


Ok lets get simple:

Just say a person has a headache and he cant stand the pain and he takes a tablet for it and after 10 minutes the pain is gone.

He feels happy..Ok I am finally pain free and that is what really matters..he is surely not going to trace his steps backwards wondering what pain is all about.

Here the pain is Maya..the pain free state is Brahman..what we want is to be Maya free and not know what Maya is cos that spells having a headache all over again.
 
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Yes Renuka I agree that no one can ever know maya. When you are in it you cannot comprehend it and when you are out of it it obviously disappears. That is the point I am also making.
 
Yes Renuka I agree that no one can ever know maya. When you are in it you cannot comprehend it and when you are out of it it obviously disappears. That is the point I am also making.

Nope Sravna..you did not sound that way..you said :


So by brahma vidya which is recognition of brahman one automatically is able to view maya from a higher level as something which grips the jivas.

How can anyone view Maya?

That is not possible isn't it?
 
Dear Members,

I think at a point when alternate views have been expressed, we can try to reconcile them and come to a consensus. In spite of my allegiance to advaita I think the opinions of other acharyas do not contradict advaita nor does advaita contradict other schools of thought. There seems to be an underlying consistency among them. I request that we shall try to explore if a consensus is really possible.
 
Dear Sravna,

I appreciate your efforts here. But why did you start of at some where in the middle of the arguments? The format you have chosen to discuss this matter could have been a better one. You could have started with briefly outlining what BS says and what the bhasyakaras say and then could have framed questions for you and the members to explore. You could have even defined the terms that you will be using before going to the questions. You could have broadly divided the discussion into two or three major divisions and started with epistemology. Just some loud thinking I am doing. Please perceive and kindly do not mistake me. You can try this method even now. Thanks.
 
The real unadulterated "advaitam" is not being followed by the mutts established by Sankara himself; these mutts attach importance to Chandramouliswara, Sarada or some other personified deity and do not advocate the realization of brahman. Even the great "tatvamasi" may well be said as "tvam tad asi SvetaketO", keeping the difference between "tvam" and "tad" very much intact and thus paving the way of dvaita (tvam is tvam while tad is always tad and separate from tvam,— and the twain shall never meet! kind of thing.)

It is for the same reason - that practising advaita is impracticable without a blanket ban on idol worship - that most smArthas have also practically given up being true advaitins and go about as very much like dvaitins. Even Sankara is said to have begged for divine forgiveness during his very last moments for three sins committed by Him, viz.,

1. clothing the one absolute reality which is formless, into one with forms,
2. describing the qualities of brahman in praise while brahman truly is devoid of all and any quality, and,
3. visiting and promoting temples when brahman is omnipresent.

This shows that even for Sankara, it was impossible to stick to advaita and the orthodox brahmin way of life.

Gaudapada wrote the mANDUkya kArikA but had interwoven the Buddhist principles of "ultimate reality being pure consciousness" and Sankara developed it further into advaita. For example,

"There is no dissolution, no origination, none in bondage, none possessed of the means of liberation, none desirous of liberation, and none liberated. This is the ultimate truth. — Verse 2.32, Mandukya Karikaa"

न निरोधो न चोत्पत्तिर्न बद्धो न च साधकः ।
न मुमुक्षुर्नवै मुक्त इत्येषा परमार्थता ॥३२॥

"That highest Bliss exists in one’s own Self. It is calm, identical with liberation, indescribable, and unborn. Since It is one with the unborn knowable (Brahman), the knowers of Brahman speak of It as the Omniscient. No Jiva (individual), whichsoever, is born. It has no cause (of birth). This is the highest Truth where nothing is born whatsoever. — Verse 3.47-48, Mandukya Karikaa"

स्वस्थं शान्तं सनिर्वाणमकथ्यं सुखमुत्तमम् ।
अजमजेन ज्ञेयेन सर्वज्ञं परिचक्षते ॥ ४७ ॥

न कश्चिज्जायते जीवः संभवोऽस्य न विद्यते ।
एतत्तदुत्तमं सत्यं यत्र किञ्चिन्न जायते ॥४८॥

Hence, I feel that all these talks about brahman realization, mAyA, the different schisms which originated as a sequel to and because of Sankara's advaita, etc., were all due to not understanding the above fundamental truths or refusing to recognise these truths. But all those developments helped the brahmins in a significant way to continue to hold their sway on the people's minds and their belief system in particular; that was all.

Today, with the wisdom of hindsight, we should better believe the truth in the kaarikaa 2-32 and forget about all such "learned discussions" about brahman, mAyA, self-realization, etc. This is my considered view.
 
Dear Sravna,

I appreciate your efforts here. But why did you start of at some where in the middle of the arguments? The format you have chosen to discuss this matter could have been a better one. You could have started with briefly outlining what BS says and what the bhasyakaras say and then could have framed questions for you and the members to explore. You could have even defined the terms that you will be using before going to the questions. You could have broadly divided the discussion into two or three major divisions and started with epistemology. Just some loud thinking I am doing. Please perceive and kindly do not mistake me. You can try this method even now. Thanks.

Dear Shri Vaagmi,

Seems to be a good suggestion. I will try to follow that method.
 
Dear Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #39. 2:32 Mandukya Karika makes sense. That is my belief too.

..Hence, I feel that all these talks about brahman realization, mAyA, the different schisms which originated as a sequel to and because of Sankara's advaita, etc., were all due to not understanding the above fundamental truths or refusing to recognise these truths. But all those developments helped the brahmins in a significant way to continue to hold their sway on the people's minds and their belief system in particular; that was all.

Today, with the wisdom of hindsight, we should better believe the truth in the kaarikaa 2-32 and forget about all such "learned discussions" about brahman, mAyA, self-realization, etc. This is my considered view.


But I can't quite agree with the quoted conclusion. One has to realise 2:32 against one just believes 2:32. Until one realises 2:32, one would undergo illusions.

Sir, There is self-realisation and there is Maya. One has to identify Maya simultaneously as one becomes self-realised.

Further, I slightly differ from 2:32 when it comes to liberation. There is a state of liberation. We can't just say "there is no liberation".

Just by self-realisation or by identifying Maya one may not get liberated.

Cheers!
 
Dear Sravna,

Why don't you chose a Sutra for discussion?

May be start off with the 1st few Sutras instead of just harping about Maya and Brahman.

I don't think we can get anyway if we do not follow the BrahmaSutras in a step wise manner.
 
I provided an introduction to the brahma sutras taken from wikipedia, earlier. The interpretations of the sutras by the acharyas differ because of their differing philosophies. To the members who are not conversant with their philosophies, I have given a summary of them:

source:Introduction – Brahma Sutras by Swami Sivananda

"According to Sri Sankara, there is one Absolute Brahman who is Sat-chit-ananda, who is of an absolutely homogeneous nature. The appearance of this world is due to Maya – the illusory power of Brahman which is neither Sat nor Asat. This world is unreal. This world is a Vivarta or apparent modification through Maya. Brahman appears as this universe through Maya. Brahman is the only reality. The individual soul has limited himself through Avidya and identification with the body and other vehicles. Through his selfish actions he enjoys the fruits of his actions. He becomes the actor and enjoyer. He regards himself as atomic and as an agent on account of Avidya or the limiting Antahkarana. The individual soul becomes identical with Brahman when his Avidya is destroyed. In reality Jiva is all-pervading and identical with Brahman. Isvara or Saguna Brahman is a product of Maya. Worship of Isvara leads to Krama Mukti. The pious devotees (the knowers of Saguna Brahman) go to Brahmaloka and attain final release through highest knowledge. They do not return to this world. They attain the Nirguna Brahman at the end of the cycle. Knowledge of Nirguna Brahman is the only means of liberation. The knowers of Nirguna Brahman attain immediate final release or Sadyomukti. They need not go by the path of gods or the path of Devayana. They merge themselves in Para Brahman. They do not go to any Loka or world. Sri Sankara's Brahman is Nirvisesha Brahman (Impersonal Absolute) without attributes.

According to Sri Ramanuja, Brahman is with attributes (Savisesha). He is endowed with all auspicious qualities. He is not intelligence itself. Intelligence is his chief attribute. He contains within Himself whatever exists. World and individual souls are essential real constituents of Brahman's nature. Matter (Achit) and soul (Chit) form the body of the Lord, Lord Narayana who is the Inner Ruler (Antaryamin). Matter and souls are called modes of Him (Prakara). The individual souls will never be entirely resolved in Brahman. According to Ramanuja, Brahman is not absolutely one and homogeneous. The individual souls undergo a state of Sankocha (contraction) during Pralaya. They expand (Vikasa) during creation. Sri Ramanuja's Brahman is a Personal God with attributes. The individual soul of Ramanuja is really individual. It will remain a personality for ever. The soul remains in Vaikuntha for ever in a state of bliss and enjoys the divine Aisvarya of Lord Narayana. Bhakti is the chief means to final emancipation and not Jnana. Sri Ramanuja follows in his Bhashya the authority of Bodhayana.


According to Sri Nimbarkacharya, Brahman is considered as both the efficient and material cause of the world. Brahman is both Nirguna and Saguna. The universe is not unreal or illusory but is a true manifestation or Parinama of Brahman. (Sri Ramanuja also holds this view. He says "Just as milk is transformed into curd, so also Brahman has transformed Himself as this universe"). This world is identical with and at the same time different from Brahman just as the wave or bubble is the same and at the same time different from water. The individual souls are parts of the Supreme Self. They are controlled by the Supreme Being. The final salvation lies in realising the true nature of one's own soul. This can be achieved by Bhakti (devotion). The individuality of the finite self (Jivatman) is not dissolved even in the state of final emancipation. Sri Ramanuja also holds that the Jiva assumes the divine body of Sri Narayana with four hands and enjoys in Vaikuntha the divine Aisvarya of the Lord."
 
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Sankara starts his commentary with an discussion of the concept of adhyasa. Since it is considered to be a significant discussion of his commentary, I will start with that. Please refer to the post of mine about adhyasa taken from wikipedia.

After the discussion on adhyasa, the following four chapters will be discussed:

1. Samanvaya adhyaya
2. Avirodha adhyaya
3. sadhana adhyaya
4. Phala adhyaya

I will try to give a summary of each and frame specific questions to discuss.
 
Summary of the adhyasa chapter

Adhyasa or superimposition is nothing but the apparent presentation to consciousness of attributes of one thing in some other thing. Sankara gives the example of seeing a snake in a rope in the dark. That is your consciousness sees a snake when what is there is only a rope. This is false perception because it can be later falsified.

So all the worldly or empirical knowledge is only a illusory knowledge superimposed over the real or ultimate knowledge of brahman. However empirical knowledge has its use as it helps you ultimately gain the underlying or real knowledge. It has no use to only to one who already knows brahman.

Here are a few questions that would be interesting to discuss?

1. What is the relationship among adhyasa, avidya and maya?
2. Why is worldly knowledge called illusory knowledge?
3. How can illusory knowledge lead to real knowledge?

And any other questions members can think of can be discussed.
 
No response? surprising!

Dear Sri. Sravna,

Why are you surprised? I would not be. The whole concept can be understood in simple explanations. Somehow, I get the feeling, these matters are made unnecessarily complicated where they can be explained in much simpler terms. Personally, I would take part in this thread if it becomes easy enough for a simple person to follow.

Cheers!
 
Dear Shri Raghy,

I am trying to making the discussion simple to follow. But I think the concepts are heavy. The real discussion starts from the adhyasa concept I recently summarized. Is there anything I need to specifically elucidate? I will try to do that and I will remember to keep the future posts really simple. Thanks for your feedback.
 
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