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Belief in personal God VS Belief in Brahman

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renuka

Well-known member
The learning I talked about is structured learning (which was the intent of dvija system).

As I wrote, when a labor is in demand, it is treated as a service. When not in demand it becomes cheap labor. Plumbing, electrician, barbers, vettiyans, drivers are services. They are services in demand. But let's say due to technology development plumbing becomes a simple stuff with little or no learning at all, something that anybody can do, if they just spend their time. Then it becomes cheap labor. Nothing to learn or anybody can learn quick. It just requires a human body with little mind to co-ordinate it.

There are umpteen number of un-skilled labor jobs (like carrying loads, cleaning etc). Any service can become cheap labor. Many services of the past have become cheap labor. That's why we see so many kshatriyas becoming zudras in Indian history.

For eg. look at BPO services. With more automation, they become too simple to be done without much learning and fall into cheap labor. Look at all the clerical services. With more computing, they become too simple to be done without much learning (or the skill level required goes down considerably).

Even services like that of doctor can become a cheap labor with technological advancement. Let's say we have a machine in which we send humans into and it finds everything about that human, then the first level doctors (MBBS) would become cheap labor. Anyone who can operate the machine is enough. We will need only specialists who can do surgery or concentrate on specific organs..

-TBT

Hello...
Anyone can do plumbing?
LOL.

try it and then get back to me on this.

All levels of jobs need skills that need to be acquired and learnt.

The cobbler I know who repairs my shoes..stitches so perfectly..I told him that he has the skill of a surgeon.
He was happy when I told him that cos it takes a lot of perfected skill to stitch a shoe or a human body.

There is nothing really great about reading anything from any books and even earning a degree cos very few of us are inventors or have discovered something new.

All I can say is majority of us are just regurgitating what others have written or discovered.

If you ask me if I am educated..my true honest answer would be NO..I have not discovered anything that made a change to the world..anyone can go to college..anyone can just copy and paste information from books into their mind and claim to be Intellectuals.

What is that which upon knowing we know everything?

Are we even near that stage yet?

No!

So its entirely wrong to say cheap labour requires little mind and just a functioning human body to do the job.

I guess then next time when anyone needs to do plumbing..dont call the plumber...do it themselves..after all if a so called little mind can do it..I am sure a rocket scientist too can do it.

We humans should learn to have more value for every level of society.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Hello...
Anyone can do plumbing?
LOL.

try it and then get back to me on this.

All levels of jobs need skills that need to be acquired and learnt.

The cobbler I know who repairs my shoes..stitches so perfectly..I told him that he has the skill of a surgeon.
He was happy when I told him that cos it takes a lot of perfected skill to stitch a shoe or a human body.

There is nothing really great about reading anything from any books and even earning a degree cos very few of us are inventors or have discovered something new.

All I can say is majority of us are just regurgitating what others have written or discovered.

If you ask me if I am educated..my true honest answer would be NO..I have not discovered anything that made a change to the world..anyone can go to college..anyone can just copy and paste information from books into their mind and claim to be Intellectuals.

What is that which upon knowing we know everything?

Are we even near that stage yet?

No!

So its entirely wrong to say cheap labour requires little mind and just a functioning human body to do the job.

I guess then next time when anyone needs to do plumbing..dont call the plumber...do it themselves..after all if a so called little mind can do it..I am sure a rocket scientist too can do it.

We humans should learn to have more value for every level of society.

Renuka,

I agree . Every skill has to be valued. Human abilities are complementary.
 

Raji Ram

Active member
............ All levels of jobs need skills that need to be acquired and learnt.

The cobbler I know who repairs my shoes..stitches so perfectly..I told him that he has the skill of a surgeon.
He was happy when I told him that cos it takes a lot of perfected skill to stitch a shoe or a human body. ......
Dear Renu,

True! But a cobbler needs to learn just from his parents but a surgeon needs to go and study in a medical college!

That IS the difference.
 
Hello...
Anyone can do plumbing?
LOL.

try it and then get back to me on this.

All levels of jobs need skills that need to be acquired and learnt.

The cobbler I know who repairs my shoes..stitches so perfectly..I told him that he has the skill of a surgeon.
He was happy when I told him that cos it takes a lot of perfected skill to stitch a shoe or a human body.

There is nothing really great about reading anything from any books and even earning a degree cos very few of us are inventors or have discovered something new.

All I can say is majority of us are just regurgitating what others have written or discovered.

If you ask me if I am educated..my true honest answer would be NO..I have not discovered anything that made a change to the world..anyone can go to college..anyone can just copy and paste information from books into their mind and claim to be Intellectuals.

What is that which upon knowing we know everything?

Are we even near that stage yet?

No!

So its entirely wrong to say cheap labour requires little mind and just a functioning human body to do the job.

I guess then next time when anyone needs to do plumbing..dont call the plumber...do it themselves..after all if a so called little mind can do it..I am sure a rocket scientist too can do it.

We humans should learn to have more value for every level of society.

I think you are confusing it by mapping old castes to existing professions.

Look at human history. Skills that were hitherto valued most become un-needed over time and people with such skills would be relegated to be 'bio-mass' or just labor. This is NOT to devalue them, de-humanize them. This is to understand how society works. You have to differentiate between the two.

No profession or skill in this world can escape this becoming obsolete. Look around. So many professions and skills have become obsolete in the last few hundred years. So many are becoming obsolete in front of your eyes. People with such skills are left with only their body to contribute to the society. This is the fact.

When a society is made of such zudras who primarily contribute only labor, they are made into slave labor (call it cheap labor) due to demand-supply gap and that society does not prosper.

The other side is also true.

Barbers were zudras once, as a village required just one barber, while families of barbers lived in a village. But today barbers are Kshatriyas (service providers) as the demand for them increases, as they provide more skilled services.

Plumbing today is a kshatriya profession in many parts of the world. Doctors are today kshatriya profession. But as I wrote, it can change. Technological advancements will obsolete the skill-set you have and leave you as a zudra with no skill except your body to contribute.

Again, I am talking about professions, not jAtis.

Understanding it and planning the society properly is varna dharma. This is not regurgitation of some old stuff. This is how societies work always. You can't change it. Hence it is dharma.

-TBT
 
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renuka

Well-known member
If one is employed one is a Shudra..be it university proff or CEO of an IT sector..Employee.

Self employed is Vaishya...bussiness men..self employed docs..self employed lawyers..self employed anyone.

Nowadays few countries have full powered Kings eg Saudi Arabia..hence Kshatriyas are in Middle East.

Brahmins are intellectuals that are not employed but protected by the King.

Hence only in Middle East we see such a scenario where an Ulama is protected by the King.

Therefore Brahmins also only in Middle East.
Ya A-Brahman!

Yes..I am also talking about profession.
 
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Raji Ram

Active member
Dear Renu,

How about learned sAsthrigaLs who are self employed? In olden days, brahmins were paid by the kings
for protecting them. Now, sAstrigaLs get paid by others, for their services! :popcorn:

So, are these sAsthrigaLs brahmins or vaishyAs?
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Renu,

How about learned sAsthrigaLs who are self employed? In olden days, brahmins were paid by the kings
for protecting them. Now, sAstrigaLs get paid by others, for their services! :popcorn:

So, are these sAsthrigaLs brahmins or vaishyAs?

If there is no King to protect them and to look into their welfare then they can be considered to be sole proprieter..that would only mean Vaishya sector.

Dear RR ji..my answer might not go down to well with everyone in Forum.
Btw Kings never gave Brahmins a salary..Kings provided everything for them and considered that a Danam

Disclaimer..The answer is purely on technical grounds of the employement sector and should be only viewed from the employement context.
 
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If one is employed one is a Shudra..be it university proff or CEO of an IT sector..Employee.

Self employed is Vaishya...bussiness men..self employed docs..self employed lawyers..self employed anyone.

Nowadays few countries have full powered Kings eg Saudi Arabia..hence Kshatriyas are in Middle East.

Brahmins are intellectuals that are not employed but protected by the King.

Hence only in Middle East we see such a scenario where an Ulama is protected by the King.

Therefore Brahmins also only in Middle East.
Ya A-Brahman!

Yes..I am also talking about profession.

Not sure what you are talking about. I am talking about three professions/varnas that will always exist in a society Knowledge providers (brahmanas), service providers (kshatriyas), material providers (vaisyas) and cheap (unskilled or obsolete skilled) labor.

There is no king in this. That's your imagination.

Knowledge providers are scientists, researchers, teachers (i gave examples of Rsi, muni, Acharya). They may be self-employed or work for someone else.

Material providers are farmers, traders, industrialists. They create employment. They may employ kshatriyas (service providers with specialized skills) or Zudras (just labor with low skills) or Brahmanas (scientists, researchers to create new technologies).

Service providers are doctors, engineers, barbers, drivers, plumbers, electricians.. They may be employed or self-employed.

Zudras are labor who have either obsoleted skills or skills that are extremely undervalued (huge supply) in a society.

This is the definition I talked about.

These four will always remain in any society at all times. The exact professional groups inside every varna will change always. But the four varnas in itself remains always.

So why confuse or get confused..

-TBT
 
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renuka

Well-known member
Not sure what you are talking about. I am talking about three professions/varnas that will always exist in a society Knowledge providers (brahmanas), service providers (kshatriyas), material providers (vaisyas) and cheap (unskilled or obsolete skilled) labor.

There is no king in this. That's your imagination.

Knowledge providers are scientists, researchers, teachers (i gave examples of Rsi, muni, Acharya). They are also employed.

Material providers are farmers, traders, industrialists. They create employment. They may employ kshatriyas (service providers with specialized skills) or Zudras (just labor with low skills).

Service providers are doctors, engineers, barbers, drivers, plumbers, electricians.. They may be employed or self-employed.

Zudras are labor who have either obsoleted skills or skills that are extremely undervalued (huge supply) in a society.

This is the definition I talked about.

These four will always remain in any society at all times.

So why confuse..?

-TBT

Kya confusion infusion yaar?

Kings do exists ..not merely constituitional monarchy..full fledge one still exist and they run their government with aid of ministers..eg King Salman.
He welcomed President Trump to Saudi too.

Toh voh Kshatriya hain na?
 
Kya confusion infusion yaar?

Kings do exists ..not merely constituitional monarchy..full fledge one still exist and they run their government with aid of ministers..eg King Salman.
He welcomed President Trump to Saudi too.

Toh voh Kshatriya hain na?

I talked about varna dharma, my understanding of it and how it is heirarchical (if we consider one feeding another as hierarchical) and not hierarchical (all are needed to be in balance).

Wanted to underscore that Zudra is about obsoleted skilled labor or low skill labor, where labor is critical and skills take a back seat (that's the difference with kshatriya where skill takes a front seat).

Wanted to say there is a constant migration between zudras and kshatriyas as technologies change and evolve (to answer your point).

Also wanted to underscore that Varna is not about being self-employed or employed with others. Also wanted to underscore that varna is not about protected by king or on your own.

Unable to understand the relevance of Trump, Saudi Arabian king etc here in this discussion

-TBT
 
OP
OP
prasad1

prasad1

Active member
Hello...
Anyone can do plumbing?
LOL.

try it and then get back to me on this.

All levels of jobs need skills that need to be acquired and learnt.

The cobbler I know who repairs my shoes..stitches so perfectly..I told him that he has the skill of a surgeon.
He was happy when I told him that cos it takes a lot of perfected skill to stitch a shoe or a human body.

There is nothing really great about reading anything from any books and even earning a degree cos very few of us are inventors or have discovered something new.

All I can say is majority of us are just regurgitating what others have written or discovered.

If you ask me if I am educated..my true honest answer would be NO..I have not discovered anything that made a change to the world..anyone can go to college..anyone can just copy and paste information from books into their mind and claim to be Intellectuals.

What is that which upon knowing we know everything?

Are we even near that stage yet?

No!

So its entirely wrong to say cheap labour requires little mind and just a functioning human body to do the job.

I guess then next time when anyone needs to do plumbing..dont call the plumber...do it themselves..after all if a so called little mind can do it..I am sure a rocket scientist too can do it.


We humans should learn to have more value for every level of society.


Well said!!!!!!
 
Well said!!!!!!

Repeating it..

Look at human history. Skills that were hitherto valued most become un-needed over time and people with such skills would be relegated to be 'bio-mass' or just labor. This is NOT to devalue them, de-humanize them. This is to understand how society works. You have to differentiate between the two.

No profession or skill in this world can escape this becoming obsolete. Look around. So many professions and skills have become obsolete in the last few hundred years. So many are becoming obsolete in front of your eyes. People with such skills are left with only their body to contribute to the society. This is the fact.

When a society is made of such zudras who primarily contribute only labor, they are made into slave labor (call it cheap labor) due to demand-supply gap and that society does not prosper.

The other side is also true.

Barbers were zudras once, as a village required just one barber, while families of barbers lived in a village. But today barbers are Kshatriyas (service providers) as the demand for them increases, as they provide more skilled services.

Plumbing today is a kshatriya profession in many parts of the world. Doctors are today kshatriya profession. But as I wrote, it can change. Technological advancements will obsolete the skill-set you have and leave you as a zudra with no skill except your body to contribute.

Again, I am talking about professions, not jAtis.

Understanding it and planning the society properly is varna dharma. This is not regurgitation of some old stuff. This is how societies work always. You can't change it. Hence it is dharma.

-TBT
 

renuka

Well-known member
Repeating it..

Look at human history. Skills that were hitherto valued most become un-needed over time and people with such skills would be relegated to be 'bio-mass' or just labor. This is NOT to devalue them, de-humanize them. This is to understand how society works. You have to differentiate between the two.

No profession or skill in this world can escape this becoming obsolete. Look around. So many professions and skills have become obsolete in the last few hundred years. So many are becoming obsolete in front of your eyes. People with such skills are left with only their body to contribute to the society. This is the fact.

When a society is made of such zudras who primarily contribute only labor, they are made into slave labor (call it cheap labor) due to demand-supply gap and that society does not prosper.

The other side is also true.

Barbers were zudras once, as a village required just one barber, while families of barbers lived in a village. But today barbers are Kshatriyas (service providers) as the demand for them increases, as they provide more skilled services.

Plumbing today is a kshatriya profession in many parts of the world. Doctors are today kshatriya profession. But as I wrote, it can change. Technological advancements will obsolete the skill-set you have and leave you as a zudra with no skill except your body to contribute.

Again, I am talking about professions, not jAtis.

Understanding it and planning the society properly is varna dharma. This is not regurgitation of some old stuff. This is how societies work always. You can't change it. Hence it is dharma.

-TBT

Every other Varna in your post seems to be changing depending on the economy and demand..for eg Kshatriya to Shudra..Shudra to Kshatriya..Vaishya to Shudra and vice versa.

But why no mention of Brahmana Varna?
Has this Varna changed into any other Varna becos of economic demand reasons?
 
Hi a-TB,

Though addressed to shri zebra16, let me add my opinion here.

The intelligence that you see is a result of random trial and error experiments that had struck a balance somewhere (amongst the forces of nature). How many trillion years passed for this to happen, we do not know. So it is not an assembled intelligence that is handcrafted by one entity (creator).

Forces combine and produce results (living, non-living) and some have a higher relative state of balance.

Hi Mr auh:

The highlighted items must be due to some basic intelligence that cannot be distributed because they all work together. Randomness is intelligence, hard to make random happen I have heard. Evolution is not stuck by repetitions like computer gets into a infinite loop but huge variations are seen. That is intelligence.

Even if many entities are there, still they all have to be coordinated by one who must have 'caused?' those entities.

Consider making your argument differently if you care to..What you have stated does not seem to hold your case..
 
No problem. Good you got confused. That will set you thinking, the best way to understand higher knowledge if you are seeking it.

That is an easy escape, Mr Sravana.

Meant your statement did not make sense.. Your statement was

"Dear Shri a-TB,

Knowledge of brahman is said to be the highest knowledge. So it is apt that it is so difficult to grasp that knowledge. Brahman can be nirguna or saguna. The former is a timeless existence and its existence is just experiencing bliss and beyond thoughts and actions. The latter exists in the realm of thoughts and actions and is responsible for creation by willing it."


The above is a bunch of terms hard to understand etc. The problem is one entity called Brahman has diametrically opposite capabilities. That cannot add up. I cannot be both blind and see. I cannot be in a totally dark room and still have light.

Your words convey two Brahmans that is wrong. If it is one, then its nature has contradictory qualities rolled into one .. That is also wrong.

Care to explain this contradiction ...?
 
Every other Varna in your post seems to be changing depending on the economy and demand..for eg Kshatriya to Shudra..Shudra to Kshatriya..Vaishya to Shudra and vice versa.

But why no mention of Brahmana Varna?
Has this Varna changed into any other Varna becos of economic demand reasons?

No. Kshatriya to Sudra varna (i am not talking of people or jAtis here) differentiation is so thin. Service provider can become laborer (if skill becomes obsolete) if service is not in demand. If skill becomes in demand then laborer (sudra) can become Kshatriya (service provider).

Material providers (Vaishyas) and Knowledge providers (Brahmanas) nature is not that.

This is not about jAtis, this is not about people migrating from one profession to another. This is about the nature of the varna. At all times, these varnas will exist and this is how they will exist. That is dharma of the Varna.

Today all people in Brahmin jAti are not Brahmanas (knowledge providers). Some are Kshatriyas (service providers like doctors, self-employeed engineers eetc), some are zudras (unskilled/getting obsolete skilled labor like clerks, peons, jobs that would be lost in course of time), some are vaishyas (farmers, landlords, traders, businessmen).

-TBT
 

renuka

Well-known member
No. Kshatriya to Sudra varna (i am not talking of people or jAtis here) differentiation is so thin. Service provider can become laborer (if skill becomes obsolete) if service is not in demand. If skill becomes in demand then laborer (sudra) can become Kshatriya (service provider).

Material providers (Vaishyas) and Knowledge providers (Brahmanas) nature is not that.

This is not about jAtis, this is not about people migrating from one profession to another. This is about the nature of the varna. At all times, these varnas will exist and this is how they will exist. That is dharma of the Varna.

Today all people in Brahmin jAti are not Brahmanas (knowledge providers). Some are Kshatriyas (service providers like doctors, self-employeed engineers eetc), some are zudras (unskilled/getting obsolete skilled labor like clerks, peons, jobs that would be lost in course of time), some are vaishyas (farmers, landlords, traders, businessmen).

-TBT

I guess its your own theory?
 

sravna

Well-known member
That is an easy escape, Mr Sravana.

Meant your statement did not make sense.. Your statement was

"Dear Shri a-TB,

Knowledge of brahman is said to be the highest knowledge. So it is apt that it is so difficult to grasp that knowledge. Brahman can be nirguna or saguna. The former is a timeless existence and its existence is just experiencing bliss and beyond thoughts and actions. The latter exists in the realm of thoughts and actions and is responsible for creation by willing it."


The above is a bunch of terms hard to understand etc. The problem is one entity called Brahman has diametrically opposite capabilities. That cannot add up. I cannot be both blind and see. I cannot be in a totally dark room and still have light.

Your words convey two Brahmans that is wrong. If it is one, then its nature has contradictory qualities rolled into one .. That is also wrong.

Care to explain this contradiction ...?

Let me explain how it is not a contradiction.

In the laws of physics, nothing can travel faster than light. Any theory which says that there is something that travels faster than light is contradicting a physical law. But consider there are two different existences where one of them affects the other but not the other way. We can understand this as two levels of existences. Now it is perfectly ok for me to say that nothing travels faster than light in the lower level existence , that is, in the physical world, but is not so at the higher level. According to my understanding, thoughts instantaneously are everywhere. It does not violate any physical law.

Our own body and mind illustrate how two different levels of existences can "co-exist"

If this still does not make sense, kindly ask for more clarifications.
 
Let me explain how it is not a contradiction.

In the laws of physics, nothing can travel faster than light. Any theory which says that there is something that travels faster than light is contradicting a physical law. But consider there are two different existences where one of them affects the other but not the other way. We can understand this as two levels of existences. Now it is perfectly ok for me to say that nothing travels faster than light in the lower level existence , that is, in the physical world, but is not so at the higher level. According to my understanding, thoughts instantaneously are everywhere. It does not violate any physical law.

Our own body and mind illustrate how two different levels of existences can "co-exist"

If this still does not make sense, kindly ask for more clarifications.

Sorry, Mr Sravana - These kinds of hand waving does not work.
You see, thoughts are not everywhere - they are just chemical messages (or electrical or both) in our body. There is no two existence (unless one is in the influence of drugs like LSD or committed in a mental asylum).

We are assembled unit - head, brain, hands and legs etc. We also have ideas, feelings, thoughts etc
Your example does not hold because Brahman is not assembled in terms of units of Brahman and so it cannot show exactly opposite qualities within one unit.

We do not want this physical and spiritual discussions here.

Is there anyone else in the forum with better answers?
 
OP
OP
prasad1

prasad1

Active member
Haridas Chaudhuri, author of "The Concept of Brahman in Hindu Philosophy.." Brahman is the energy, and the creation of the world is a manifestation of that energy; the universe exists as a byproduct of Brahman.

Brahman is the origin and end of all things, material or otherwise. Brahman is the root source and Divine Ground of everything that exists, and does not exist.

The Hindu scriptures declare that Brahman (the impersonal God) is beyond description, and can be understood only through direct spiritual experience. Nevertheless, for the benefit of others, the ancient Hindu sages who experienced Brahman attempted to describe their experiences, as recorded in the ancient Vedic texts known as the Upanishads.

Brahman is conceived of as the very essence of existence and knowledge, which pervades the entire universe, including every living being.

The Absolute without qualities, is impersonal, without guna or attributes, Nirakara (formless), Nirvisesha (without special characteristics), immutable, eternal and Akarta (non-agent). It is above all needs and desires. It is always the Witnessing Subject. It can never become an object as It is beyond the reach of the senses. Brahman is non-dual, one without a second. It has no other beside It. It is destitute of difference, either external or internal. Brahman cannot be described, because description implies distinction. Brahman cannot be distinguished from any other than It. In Brahman, there is not the distinction of substance and attribute. Sat-Chit-Ananda (Truth-Consciousness-Bliss) constitute the very essence or Svarupa of Brahman, and not just Its attributes.
-----------------------------------

While Brahman lies behind the sum total of the objective universe, some human minds boggle at any attempt to explain it with only the tools provided by reason. Brahman is beyond the senses, beyond the mind, beyond intelligence, beyond imagination. Indeed, the highest idea is that Brahman is beyond both existence and non-existence, transcending and including time, causation and space, and thus can never be known in the same material sense as one traditionally 'understands' a given concept or object.
Imagine a person who is blind from birth and has not seen anything. Is it possible for us to explain to him the meaning of the colour red? Is any amount of thinking or reasoning on his part ever going to make him understand the sensation of the colour red? In a similar fashion the idea of Brahman cannot be explained or understood through material reasoning or any form of human communication. Brahman is like the colour red; those who can sense it cannot explain or argue with those who have never sensed it.
Brahman is considered the all pervading consciousness which is the basis of all the animate and inanimate entities and material. (brahmano hi pratisthaham, Bhagavad Gita14.27)



https://www.quora.com/Indian-Philosophy-What-is-Brahman
 
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sravna

Well-known member
Sorry, Mr Sravana - These kinds of hand waving does not work.
You see, thoughts are not everywhere - they are just chemical messages (or electrical or both) in our body. There is no two existence (unless one is in the influence of drugs like LSD or committed in a mental asylum).

We are assembled unit - head, brain, hands and legs etc. We also have ideas, feelings, thoughts etc
Your example does not hold because Brahman is not assembled in terms of units of Brahman and so it cannot show exactly opposite qualities within one unit.

We do not want this physical and spiritual discussions here.

Is there anyone else in the forum with better answers?

Dear Shri a-TB,

You have notions which you do not want to be challenged. It is difficult to have a healthy debate in such a case. Good luck in your
search for answers.
 
Dear Mr Zebra16,

This world seems to be assembled because it can disintegrate. Even atoms are smashed to some pieces. Also scientists create new items out of raw materials. So world is intelligently put together in my simplistic mind. Mars and galaxies have gravity, not an easy job for all these laws of nature to work together. How can there be not a creator since entire universe is intelligently assembled?

And it has to be an active creator with lot of power.. Where does all the power come from

Thanks

First, we have to define Brahman. I think the original poster, Sri Prasad1 meant Brahman as defined in advaita. That (brahman) is unchangeable, immutable, without form, shape, name etc. and IT is the ONLY reality.

Now advaita also defines what is REALITY or nityam or sAshwatam (in sanskrit). That Reality remains UNCHANGED forever.. it is the SAME for the trikAlam - past, present and future. (The definition of Reality is different from other Hindu school of philosophy like Vishist-advaita or dwaita etc.)

Now how does advaita dispose off your queries of disintegration, smashing of atoms, creation of new items out of raw materials etc.?

It gives the example of gold and bangles. Although bangle is circular in shape, ring is smaller than bangle etc. the underlying reality is gold, much the same as brahman is the underlying reality of the world. Without gold, there is no gold bangle. Although one might argue that a bangle can be made of glass, copper, iron etc. the underlying tatva of advaita remains firmly rooted, that is there is no glass bangle without glass, no copper ring without copper etc. Change of form and shape (also called nAmA, rUpA in sanskrit) does not constitute change in the underlying raw material.

Now a bit about reality or nityam. The World Trade towers constitute a ready example. Before 1973 the twin towers simply werent there, from 1973-2001 they existed in their total majesty, after 2001 they are no more in existence and efforts are afoot to rebuild them or at least one tower. No one could argue about the reality of twin towers when they existed, but they were never REAL FOR ALL TIMES, as per definition of advaita. But the steel and concrete are REAL as they have been in existence since the formation of earth from whichever stuff it was formed.

Now about scientists creating new items out of raw materials or forming alloys or smashing atoms etc. The scientists can NEVER create the original substance or basic raw material.

Now about an active creator with lot of power, not easy to mesh Mars, galaxies with gravity and implementing law of nature etc.. Richard Dawkins has brought out in his books "The Blind Watchmaker", there is no necessity of an Intelligent maker to bring out an Intelligent produce. I am saying this only for the purpose of highlighting the supposed inactivity of brahman, not for discounting his ability to be omnipotent etc.
 
Dear Shri a-TB,

You have notions which you do not want to be challenged. It is difficult to have a healthy debate in such a case. Good luck in your
search for answers.

Dear Mr Sravana,

It is you who are unable to deal with challenge to your long held positions. You provided statement about Brahman and my comments challenged your understanding.

I want to search for contradiction free understanding , not one riddled with pet beliefs that have no basis in logic.

Hope you reflect on my comments and explore further. You and I are at the same level of confusion I am afraid ...

Good luck to you
 
First, we have to define Brahman. I think the original poster, Sri Prasad1 meant Brahman as defined in advaita. That (brahman) is unchangeable, immutable, without form, shape, name etc. and IT is the ONLY reality.

Now advaita also defines what is REALITY or nityam or sAshwatam (in sanskrit). That Reality remains UNCHANGED forever.. it is the SAME for the trikAlam - past, present and future. (The definition of Reality is different from other Hindu school of philosophy like Vishist-advaita or dwaita etc.)

Now how does advaita dispose off your queries of disintegration, smashing of atoms, creation of new items out of raw materials etc.?

It gives the example of gold and bangles. Although bangle is circular in shape, ring is smaller than bangle etc. the underlying reality is gold, much the same as brahman is the underlying reality of the world. Without gold, there is no gold bangle. Although one might argue that a bangle can be made of glass, copper, iron etc. the underlying tatva of advaita remains firmly rooted, that is there is no glass bangle without glass, no copper ring without copper etc. Change of form and shape (also called nAmA, rUpA in sanskrit) does not constitute change in the underlying raw material.

Now a bit about reality or nityam. The World Trade towers constitute a ready example. Before 1973 the twin towers simply werent there, from 1973-2001 they existed in their total majesty, after 2001 they are no more in existence and efforts are afoot to rebuild them or at least one tower. No one could argue about the reality of twin towers when they existed, but they were never REAL FOR ALL TIMES, as per definition of advaita. But the steel and concrete are REAL as they have been in existence since the formation of earth from whichever stuff it was formed.

Now about scientists creating new items out of raw materials or forming alloys or smashing atoms etc. The scientists can NEVER create the original substance or basic raw material.

Now about an active creator with lot of power, not easy to mesh Mars, galaxies with gravity and implementing law of nature etc.. Richard Dawkins has brought out in his books "The Blind Watchmaker", there is no necessity of an Intelligent maker to bring out an Intelligent produce. I am saying this only for the purpose of highlighting the supposed inactivity of brahman, not for discounting his ability to be omnipotent etc.

Dear Mr Zebra16:

Your response is well written and understandable. Thank you. I have some questions & objections.

1. Raw material(s) may remain the same, but there is still creation in creating a world trade center, bangles, etc. Raw materials did not just come together on their own to become something else. The world has so much variety even at a raw levels - so many animals, worms, insects, human beings .. There have to be one or many creators. If it is not Brahman, who is it?

2. There are creator(s) perhaps who are distinct from created. The person who made the bangle is not the bangle. So creation and created are not one and the same from the examples. This is contrary to one and only one Brahman

3. OK, so all the basic raw material may remain the same in all creations - you call that Brahman. Fine. But then the world did not come out of nothing. Someone had to be involved in assembling at a raw material level of intelligence. A bangle is possible because Gold has the property to be molded into any shape. That intelligence of Gold has to be there for someone to make a bangle. So Brahman has to be intelligent.

Looked up some write up on the 'blind watch maker'. It is true that nature goes through trillions of combinations (Mr Auh's point). It is like a child who has lego pieces to try all kinds of things and stumble on a shape. But Lego maker allowed for such a thing to be made. So the creator of the raw material in this world has to have been intelligent.

5. Richard Dawkin's point about variations giving rise to something intelligent cannot apply to living things and their variations. It can apply to nature of non-living things. For him to apply this to living things is a stretch.

6. So what is god in all this - who is omnipotent , omni whatever etc?
 
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