Atman and its adjectives

[nachi naga]

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re

Sri Nachi naga,Sri tbs,

Knowledge is also like wealth.

The more we possess, we feel not full, and yearn for more.There is no end.

However, just like wealth, knowledge also, if not distributed , is useless.The owner is called a miser, he gets cursed by others when they know that he possesses so much, and still keeps it to himself.

Unlike wealth, knowledge cannot be stolen ,it grows more on giving to others...


So request is -- be free in sharing your knowledge with all; many can benefit from that.

Regarding English, let us not have an adamant attitude to that.Even a diluted version is better than not knowing anything at all.. Moreover as per the capacity of a person , as a beginner, an abridged version functions as an inspirational inducement for learning further, and he himself will end up only after getting the original.Till then , the proxy, miniature is useful.


Greetings.

sk,

please sir,dont think i have an iota of knowledge like tbs,sir he is like a vidwan.just read his postings,so concise like thirukkural packed with gnayanam & bhakthi.at least thats how i feel.but i thank you neverthless.

nachi naga.

 

[nachi naga]

re

namaste everyone.

On my invitation Prof.Nara has joined the Hindu Dharma Forums to discuss his outlandish ideas about Advaita and other Hindu concepts vis-a-vis those of Science. I had already started a thread in HDF for my more learned friends there to find answers to Nara's queries. We have arrived at the answers with counter queries to him, which is why Nara's participation was desired.

Prof.Nara has started posting from page 16 of the thread at this link:
How do we counter this argument? - Page 16 - Hindu Dharma Forums

and some interesting things have started happening...

If any members from here wish to join HDF to partake the debate, I welcome them. It may please be noted that HDF is a bit strict about its contents which are geared towards positive presentation of Hindu Dharma, and the initial posts of new members will be moderated. Reading the FAQ is a must for anyone joining the Forum.

sairam saidevo.i am so happy finally nara has an outlet for his special brand of intelligence.i just love our forum.i think for now i am content,hope the forum you mentioned allows people to browse messages without registering or loggin.if its really fun,who knows i might even change my mind later.thanks saidevo,please please continue your thread.

nachi naga

 

[renuka]

Dear all,

I feel all of us here have our own way of interprating Sanathana Dharma...whether as a believer,non beleiver or an agnostic...
When all is verily Brahman....differences of opinion are mere illusions..like a mirage..

I have mentioned before in another thread that the spiritual journey is a journey where :

There are multiple choices
No right and no wrong
We mark the answer paper ourselves
We are both Guru and Shisiya.....


renu

 

[saidevo]

namaste shrI Nachi Naga.

Please don't get me wrong. It's not my intention to solicit members for HDF, which is a public forum, meaning that its posts may be read by anyone.

Since many if not most of us believe in Shankara Advaita, if a person questions it just by simply dismissing it, perhaps we have an obligation to find answers to his queries for the sake of our own faith rather than to answer or convince the person.

In his discussions at HDF, Prof.Nara displays his intimate knowledge with the UpaniShads, GItA and Brahma Sutra, which is why I said in post 160, "some interesting things have started happening...".

It is not uncommon that some of us are members of many forums and groups. I am an active member at HDF, Kanchi Forum and TBF. I used to be a member of at least 20 Yahoo groups, but found it difficult to cope with my postings and the replies thereto; besides the YG format for user expression is too restricted, so I am inactive in all the Yahoo Groups.

sairam saidevo.i am so happy finally nara has an outlet for his special brand of intelligence.i just love our forum.i think for now i am content,hope the forum you mentioned allows people to browse messages without registering or loggin.if its really fun,who knows i might even change my mind later.thanks saidevo,please please continue your thread.

nachi naga

 

[nachi naga]

re

sairam saidevo.

namaste shrI Nachi Naga.
Please don't get me wrong. It's not my intention to solicit members for HDF, which is a public forum, meaning that its posts may be read by anyone.

Please sir,be rest assured,i did not get you wrong.I did visit HDF,i especially liked atanus style.Remarkable forum indeed.

Since many if not most of us believe in Shankara Advaita, if a person questions it just by simply dismissing it, perhaps we have an obligation to find answers to his queries for the sake of our own faith rather than to answer or convince the person.

It all depends on the parameters of discussion.Just read where Nara comes from?you will probably then make up your mind,sir.

In his discussions at HDF, Prof.Nara displays his intimate knowledge with the UpaniShads, GItA and Brahma Sutra, which is why I said in post 160, "some interesting things have started happening...".

Please do not mis-understand an old tamizh proverb,and this in no ways,degrades or belittle nara,as a being,only his 'agnosticism' is challenged.
kazhudaikku theriyuma karpoora vasanai?

It is not uncommon that some of us are members of many forums and groups. I am an active member at HDF, Kanchi Forum and TBF. I used to be a member of at least 20 Yahoo groups, but found it difficult to cope with my postings and the replies thereto; besides the YG format for user expression is too restricted, so I am inactive in all the Yahoo Groups.

sir,i too am a active member of kanchi forum,using a different name.HDF is a new forum,that you have introduced,i thank you for that.
nachi naga.

 

[tbs]

hi saidevo,
in srimad bhagavad mangala sloka last sentence...SATYAM PARAM DEEMAHI.. meaning the truth is greatest....so mediatate on truth..
in the same way...sage vyasa says in 10th skanda of srimad
bhagavad...in lord krishna's birth is described as SATYAM....
SO THE TRUTH IS god....TRUTH IS SAT....


regards
tbs

 

[renuka]

Just some info...

I was reading the Mandukya Upanishad today..and came across this stanza...

Prapanco yadi vidyeta nirvarteta na samshayah
maayaamaatramidam dvaitamadvaitam paramarthah

It is beyond question that the phenomenal world would cease to be if it had any existence.All this duality that is nothing but Maya is but nonduality in reality...


Ok..isnt this stanza self explanatory...about Advaitam being the Goal of our very mundane existence and Vishisthadvaitam was just a stepping stone along the way..
Well... this is from the Upanishad..It has to be the Truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...

Feedback really wanted...

renu

 

[RVR]

Just some info...

I was reading the Mandukya Upanishad today..and came across this stanza...

Prapanco yadi vidyeta nirvarteta na samshayah
maayaamaatramidam dvaitamadvaitam paramarthah

It is beyond question that the phenomenal world would cease to be if it had any existence.All this duality that is nothing but Maya is but nonduality in reality...


Ok..isnt this stanza self explanatory...about Advaitam being the Goal of our very mundane existence and Vishisthadvaitam was just a stepping stone along the way..
Well... this is from the Upanishad..It has to be the Truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...

Feedback really wanted...

renu

Both Bagavath Geetha and Upanisheds were there before the birth of Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhva

Only when the Bashyam was written for Bagavath Geetha by the above three great acharyas, the difference of opinion cropped up.

Three different schools of thought emerged as Advaitham, Vishishtadvaidam and Dwaitham.

But all the three schools of thoughts are considered as part of Hindu religion.

All the religions in the world are submerged in the above schools of thoughts and no other religion has any thing new than above.

Hence I earnestly feel that we should allow all the three schools to prosper in their own way.

My earnest feeling is that unless our mind clearly understands Maya, it is very difficult to realize brahman within us.

In actual practice, it is a very difficult differentiate Maya from the reality of Atman.

Those who realize Brahman don't claim that they have realized the truth.

Those who go after worldly pleasures claim that they have realized brahman.

So it creates lot of confusion in the minds of innocent public

Hence I earnestly feel that all the three schools of thought must be allowed to prosper simultaneously

All the best

 

[renuka]

Both Bagavath Geetha and Upanisheds were there before the birth of Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhva

Only when the Bashyam was written for Bagavath Geetha by the above three great acharyas, the difference of opinion cropped up.

Three different schools of thought emerged as Advaitham, Vishishtadvaidam and Dwaitham.

But all the three schools of thoughts are considered as part of Hindu religion.

All the religions in the world are submerged in the above schools of thoughts and no other religion has any thing new than above.

Hence I earnestly feel that we should allow all the three schools to prosper in their own way.

My earnest feeling is that unless our mind clearly understands Maya, it is very difficult to realize brahman within us.

In actual practice, it is a very difficult differentiate Maya from the reality of Atman.

Those who realize Brahman don't claim that they have realized the truth.

Those who go after worldly pleasures claim that they have realized brahman.

So it creates lot of confusion in the minds of innocent public

Hence I earnestly feel that all the three schools of thought must be allowed to prosper simultaneously

All the best

Dear anna,

I agree with you 100%..is just that i wanted to prove a point that Dvaitam...Vishishtadvaitam...Advaitam are interrelated and each playing stepping stone to realize Brahman which is so cleverly enshrouded by the Cosmic Deluder (Maya)...

Because at times there seems to be a missing link...where Vishisthadvaitam does not progress into Advaitam for the realization of Brahman...

Since the Mandukya Upanishad is so clear about this transition..I guess there shouldnt be any supremacy about each school of thought...since the goal is to realize Brahman...

 

[renuka]

Ok..i just realized something...i jumped the gun...
that stanza which i posted earlier was Gaudapada's Karika....
So it will come under scrutiny...

Ok this is stanza 7 of Mandukya Upanishad...not a commentary...

They consider the Fourth to be that which is not conscious of the internal world nor conscious of the external world nor conscious of both the worlds nor a mass of consciousness nor conscious nor unconscious ;which is unseen,beyond emperical dealings,beyond the grasp,uninferable,unthinkable,indescribable;whose valid proof consists in the single belief in the Self;inwhich all phenomena cease and which is unchanging,auspicious and non dual.That is the Self and That is to be known..


Ok here Self is clearly described almost like Neti Neti,Tat and Non Dual...
Its Non Dual used here..in the Sanskrit version the word Advaitam is used in this stanza to describe Non Dual ...
Its direct to the point here...
firmly using Advaitam only and no hint of Qualified Non Dualism seen here...

So wont we agree that all 3 stages...Dvaitam..Vishisthadvaitam..Advaitam ..culminate in realization of Brahman only..and each stage is just stepping stone for another..

 

[nachi naga]

re

Ok..i just realized something...i jumped the gun...
that stanza which i posted earlier was Gaudapada's Karika....
So it will come under scrutiny...

Ok this is stanza 7 of Mandukya Upanishad...not a commentary...

They consider the Fourth to be that which is not conscious of the internal world nor conscious of the external world nor conscious of both the worlds nor a mass of consciousness nor conscious nor unconscious ;which is unseen,beyond emperical dealings,beyond the grasp,uninferable,unthinkable,indescribable;whose valid proof consists in the single belief in the Self;inwhich all phenomena cease and which is unchanging,auspicious and non dual.That is the Self and That is to be known..


Ok here Self is clearly described almost like Neti Neti,Tat and Non Dual...
Its Non Dual used here..in the Sanskrit version the word Advaitam is used in this stanza to describe Non Dual ...
Its direct to the point here...
firmly using Advaitam only and no hint of Qualified Non Dualism seen here...

So wont we agree that all 3 stages...Dvaitam..Vishisthadvaitam..Advaitam ..culminate in realization of Brahman only..and each stage is just stepping stone for another..

renu,

self realisation is all about an individual trekking the spiritual path.the schools exist becoz of ego.shad - darshanas or 24 darshanas which exist is all there is.as long as individual perception is pradanam the universal self will be like a delusion,one has to transcend all the above.swami has explained in simple clear words,mahaswamigal literally lived the life for us to witness jivan-muktha,ramana maharishi showed a state of turiyam,above all vysa rishi wrote and compiled lord krishnas leela amritham,to feel the lord and experiance him.as you write,everything is inter-connected,without understanding all schools one can never debate,its out of choice people get stuck to a particular school,owing to many reasons,i think its IQ level-period.

 

[sapthajihva]

Ok this is stanza 7 of Mandukya Upanishad...not a commentary...

They consider the Fourth to be that which is not conscious of the internal world nor conscious of the external world nor conscious of both the worlds nor a mass of consciousness nor conscious nor unconscious ;which is unseen,beyond emperical dealings,beyond the grasp,uninferable,unthinkable,indescribable;whose valid proof consists in the single belief in the Self;inwhich all phenomena cease and which is unchanging,auspicious and non dual.That is the Self and That is to be known..


Ok here Self is clearly described almost like Neti Neti,Tat and Non Dual...
Its Non Dual used here..in the Sanskrit version the word Advaitam is used in this stanza to describe Non Dual ...
Its direct to the point here...
firmly using Advaitam only and no hint of Qualified Non Dualism seen here...

So wont we agree that all 3 stages...Dvaitam..Vishisthadvaitam..Advaitam ..culminate in realization of Brahman only..and each stage is just stepping stone for another..

The realization of brahman is the core of the upanishads... but what constitutes brahman, and how can such a brahman be realized is what the different philosophies strive to explain.

If there had been only consciousness and nothing but consciousness, which apparently was/is enlightenment itself, there would not be any maya or illusion to begin with...

 

[nachi naga]

re

The realization of brahman is the core of the upanishads... but what constitutes brahman, and how can such a brahman be realized is what the different philosophies strive to explain.

If there had been only consciousness and nothing but consciousness, which apparently was/is enlightenment itself, there would not be any maya or illusion to begin with...

sat, chit and ananda are not attributes
as visheshaNa-s that define a visheshya - if they are, then they become
guNas to be reckoned with senses or intellect. Sat chit and ananda is
considered as LakshaNa of Brahman - in the sense that they are necessary
and sufficient to define Brahman.

This is the doctrine of Advaita.---acharya sadananda.

 

[tbs]

sat, chit and ananda are not attributes
as visheshaNa-s that define a visheshya - if they are, then they become
guNas to be reckoned with senses or intellect. Sat chit and ananda is
considered as LakshaNa of Brahman - in the sense that they are necessary
and sufficient to define Brahman.

This is the doctrine of Advaita.---acharya sadananda.

hi naachi naga,
superb ..very nice explanation about advaita....im ph.d in advaita..
but u r post doc/d litt in advaita..i think...
thank u so much...

regards
tbs

 

[renuka]

You know reading the Mandukya Upanishads commentary and its arguement and counterarguments between Non Dualist and Qualified Non Dualist....

Its kind of tiring actually...I am reading in for the sake of gaining knowledge and improving my Sanskrit Grammar...but at times I cant help wondering whether all this arguements are really neccesary...

Its not as if we are discussing apples and oranges here...both are discusing apples only but it looks as if some feel they describe the apple better than the other person..

no wonder Adishankaracharya said "Nahi Nahi Rakshati Dukren Karane"

Thats what excatly I am thinking now..I just closed the book and going to listen to some bhajan....
Bhajo Govindam Bhajo Govindam...

 

[nachi naga]

re

You know reading the Mandukya Upanishads commentary and its arguement and counterarguments between Non Dualist and Qualified Non Dualist....

Its kind of tiring actually...I am reading in for the sake of gaining knowledge and improving my Sanskrit Grammar...but at times I cant help wondering whether all this arguements are really neccesary...

Its not as if we are discussing apples and oranges here...both are discusing apples only but it looks as if some feel they describe the apple better than the other person..

no wonder Adishankaracharya said "Nahi Nahi Rakshati Dukren Karane"

Thats what excatly I am thinking now..I just closed the book and going to listen to some bhajan....
Bhajo Govindam Bhajo Govindam...

renu

finally a genius stroke of revealation,in kali yugam,its bhakthi or devotional path,so sing & listen,to bhakthi padalgal bhajans,kunrathillay kumaranukku kondattam

 

[nachi naga]

re

hi naachi naga,
superb ..very nice explanation about advaita....im ph.d in advaita..
but u r post doc/d litt in advaita..i think...
thank u so much...

regards
tbs

tbs saar,

yengayyo kondu poitale pongo ennai

diggu theriyada kaatil

from untruth to truth

 

[tbs]

tbs saar,

yengayyo kondu poitale pongo ennai

diggu theriyada kaatil

from untruth to truth

hi nachi naga sir,
besh.. besh.....from immortal to mortal...mrityor ma amritam gamaya...
om shanti.. om shanti..om shanti

regards
tbs

 

[nachi naga]

hi nachi naga sir,
besh.. besh.....from immortal to mortal...mrityor ma amritam gamaya...
om shanti.. om shanti..om shanti

regards
tbs

mrithyor ma amritham gamaya

from death to immortality

shahana bhavathu sahana bhunakthu

 

[tbs]

mrithyor ma amritham gamaya

from death to immortality

shahana bhavathu sahana bhunakthu

hi nachi naga sir,
sorry sir.from mortal to immortal...ammam...death to immortality
regards
tbs

 

[Dr.S.Ramanathan]

Atman and its objectives​

​

Excellent postings by Dr. Renuka, Prof. Naga M/s Nachi Naga, Sai Deo, TBS and others have made this thread the most viewed one as seen from the number of viewers and the responses. However, before hijacking it towards Bhaja Govindam, I would like to redraw the attention of the viewers to some of the facts already mentioned in the book on Vishnu Sahasranamam from which this thread is drawn in this forum. I would particularly like to draw the attention to para 2.16 in page 19 and para 3.4 in page 21 in this connection, among others. I quote them for easy reference below .

2.16 Thus, the five elements, five tanmaatraas, five organs of perception, five organs of
action, Mind, Intellect, Ego and Chitta, totalling 24, are called ‘Prakriti Tatwa’ (or Bahir
Karana and Antah Karana). The jeevaatma, which is outside the 24, is the 25th Tatwa. It
cannot be just a coincidence that the ‘Makaaram’ of ‘Aum’ (Jeevaatma) (more of it later) is the 25th letter among the consonants in Sanskrit! And, for those who have not reached that high level of intellect of Adwaita Philosophy, to see that Jeevatma and Brahman are indeed the same, ‘Brahman’ stands as the 26th Tatwa. Can we then again say that the 26 alphabets in English are just not coincidence?

3.4 Aum and Science: Of every 200 atoms in our body, 126 are hydrogen, 51 are oxygen and though only 19, yet vital, are carbon. This may, then, give a little scientific explanation of “Aum” being at once a single letter and three letters and what we are really worshipping and praying, when we say “Aum”. Depending upon our level of intellect to understand this as one single inseparable (Advaita), or partially apparently separable (because each of these elements have separate unique functions but group together to achieve the common end, (Vishishtaa dwaita) or the role of carbon as distinct from that of Hydrogen and oxygen (two distinct, Dwaita), the three principal Philosophies of Sanaatana Dharma, and advocated by the three great savants of the Hindu Religion, namely Adisankara, Raamaanuja and Madhwacharya, may have evolved.

Adi Sankara in his treatise on Panchikaranam mentions that the world exists as an empirical necessity but not as a transcendental validity.

‘Ekibutah Pragnanaghana’ says Mandukya Upanishad (verse 5) – there is only one undifferentiated consciousness unlike in the waking or dream state. It is ‘Anandamayaha’ (full of bliss) ‘Prabhava Apyayam (verse 6). It is responsible for origin and destruction of everything. All living objects come from the same source and they go back to the same source. The energy level gets denser to the level of solids.

It may be seen that ‘Advaitam’ is also defined by the ‘Neti’ principle, that is, non-dualistic, and not by a positive definition, except in the one instance in the Mandukya Upanishad, quoted above.

In Bhagawad Gita the second chapter is devoted to the ‘Samkhya Yoga’ or yoga of knowledge, wherein Lord Krishna teaches Arjuna, as though to a child, the difference between real and unreal, Atman and its indestructibility. He states in unequivocal terms ‘The unreal has no existence, the real never ceases to be’. ‘Pragyanam Brahma’ – ‘Awareness is Reality’, is the definition of Absolute Reality.

I hope the above few clarifications would reassure the readers about the definition of Atman and Advaitham, the non-duality.

Regards and respects

Ramanathan.

 

[nachi naga]

rama is our lord, nathan is embodiment of rama, hare rama jayam

 

[renuka]

Dear all...
I just read this from the Kenopanishad and couldnt wait to share it...

Brahman...In Vedanta, Atman stands for the "Spirit within the man"..and Brahman for the "Spirit behind the Universe" and the whole trend of Vedanta is to establish the unity between the two...

Ok now coming to what i wanted to share...

That,which speech cannot reveal,but what reveals speech---know That alone as Brahman

That which cannot be comprehended by the mind but by which the mind is cognized,know That alone to be Brahman

That which sight(eyes) fails to see,which perceives the sight--know That alone to be Brahman

That which man fails to hear with the ear,that by which man perceives hearing-know That alone to be Brahman..

That which man does not smell by breath but what impell the organ of smell--know That alone to be Brahman

 

[nachi naga]

kenai is mundaka mandaka,in lighter vein as vadivelu would say

 

[renuka]

kenai is mundaka mandaka,in lighter vein as vadivelu would say

You know what ....whenever i think of the Mandukya upanishad..I myself think of that mundaka mandaka word only and always smile to myself...
I thought I was the only one who thought that way...
I did not know you share the same craziness like me...
Nachi..You rock man..

You know people should be more like you..
I have noticed many people when the thread the path of spirituality..they tend to forget to have fun..
They take life too seriously..

Nachi I will tell you something..
Once in 2006..It was raining heavily and I was sitting at my clinic window and watching it..I recalled when I was student in Manipal..I used to play in the rain..whenever i felt like it..
I wished i could just go out and play in the rain but since i am a doctor now..I was a bit afraid that the public here might get the wrong opinion about me ...so i just made a small wish"Dear God..when will I be able to play in the rain again"

When I had gone to Puttaparthi in 2006 with my son(6 years old at that time)...
Varun(my son) had gone into one of the small gardens in the ashram ...i ran after him and at that time all the water sprinklers at the garden started working to water the grass..
It was water all over us..like rain...
Then i remembered my wish and I felt Baba had answered my wish as this was like rain too...
Here no one knew I was a doctor..so i could be free...
I played to my hearts content with my son..I was soaked head to toe...

You should have seen the looks on the face of the indian woman there...
The westerners were Ok...one Italian guy even joined in with his son..
and it was fun...

See God really answers even the smallest prayers...

OM SAI RAM