• Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Atman and its adjectives

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dr.S.Ramanathan

Active member
ATMA AND IT’S ADJECTIVES

In my book on glory of Vishnusahasranama, posted in the forum “Literature” in this website, I have dealt with Atman in cha pter 6, from pgs 45 to 53.

Atman is defined as the supreme self. When the intellect maintains a perfect control over the mind and senses, the prakrutitatvas, the individual, reaches the ultimate goal. As if the re-instate this, the word Atman, either alone or in its different adjectivile forms appears 26 times in the vishnusahasranamam, including Jeevatma and Brahman as the 25th and 26th Tatvas, to explain to the lay and un-initiated individual in addition to the well known 24 Prakrutitatvas. Please refer to Para 6.1.1 of the book for details.

It is interesting to observe that the different adjectives for Atman from the first to the 106th Sloka are so chosen, as to explain first that the Atman or soul is different from life or body, through different levels of statements like “ Atman is free from all bondages, beyond the three Gunas etc” to a final statement that there is only one Atman. This is similar to the approach of Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita to slowly elevate a person from Karma Yoga to the Yoga of Liberation by renunciation.

In Viveka choodamani, Adi Shankara again explains the Atman and the 24 Prakruti Tatyas in beautiful slokas (237 to 240).

Entire chapters in Brihadaranya Upanishad are devoted to the understanding of Brahman.

Practically every chapter in Bhagavad Gita talks about Brahman, the reality and its indestructibility. Krishna induces Arjuna NOT to be motivated by desire and yet to be intensely active. When duty is discharged untarnished by desire, clarity of understanding ensues and efficiency increases. This is the famous sloka “ Karmany eve Adhikaras te maa phalesu kadacana maa karma phale Ketur bhur maa te Sango’stu akarmani”. Seek to perform your duty, but lay not claim to its fruits. Be you not the producer of fruits of Karma; neither shall you lean towards inaction”. (Please see the book for more details).

The Vedas speak of the interconnection between the external and the internal worlds.

Yogavaishta speaks of facts like,
¥ Just as space does not have a fixed span, time does not have a fixed span.
¥ Entire universe is contained in a sub-atomic particle.
¥ In every atom, there are worlds within worlds.
¥ The lord who is the infinite conciousness is the silent but alert witness of the cosmic dance. He is not different from the dancer and the dance (Please see pgs 50 and 51 of my book)

Today, we know that a single cell after splitting 47 times, the human body has 10,000 trillion cells and are ready to spring forth as a human being. Each cell exactly knows its job. A cell will contain some 20000 different types of proteins, though many of them live for less than ½ an hour only. The enzymes perform a thousand tasks every second. This is the staggering immensity of bio-chemical activity in our body. The wonder is that the cells manage everything on their own so smoothly for decades. All this is random action directed by nothing more than elemental rules of attraction and repulsion, without any desire or motivation behind any of the action.

Which is then the Atman ? The cells ? Proteins ? Enzymes ? Or the DNA ? No, because they are all finite and the Atman is beyond them. They all function in the 26 adjectival roles mentioned earlier, attached to Atman but Atman itself is beyond all of them. What better example of “Karmany eve Adhikaras te” can be found in real life ?

Is Atman then the nucleus ??
 

renuka

Well-known member
ATMA AND IT’S ADJECTIVES




In my book on glory of Vishnusahasranama, posted in the forum “Literature” in this website, I have dealt with Atman in cha pter 6, from pgs 45 to 53.

Atman is defined as the supreme self. When the intellect maintains a perfect control over the mind and senses, the prakrutitatvas, the individual, reaches the ultimate goal. As if the re-instate this, the word Atman, either alone or in its different adjectivile forms appears 26 times in the vishnusahasranamam, including Jeevatma and Brahman as the 25th and 26th Tatvas, to explain to the lay and un-initiated individual in addition to the well known 24 Prakrutitatvas. Please refer to Para 6.1.1 of the book for details.

It is interesting to observe that the different adjectives for Atman from the first to the 106th Sloka are so chosen, as to explain first that the Atman or soul is different from life or body, through different levels of statements like “ Atman is free from all bondages, beyond the three Gunas etc” to a final statement that there is only one Atman. This is similar to the approach of Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita to slowly elevate a person from Karma Yoga to the Yoga of Liberation by renunciation.

In Viveka choodamani, Adi Shankara again explains the Atman and the 24 Prakruti Tatyas in beautiful slokas (237 to 240).

Entire chapters in Brihadaranya Upanishad are devoted to the understanding of Brahman.

Practically every chapter in Bhagavad Gita talks about Brahman, the reality and its indestructibility. Krishna induces Arjuna NOT to be motivated by desire and yet to be intensely active. When duty is discharged untarnished by desire, clarity of understanding ensues and efficiency increases. This is the famous sloka “ Karmany eve Adhikaras te maa phalesu kadacana maa karma phale Ketur bhur maa te Sango’stu akarmani”. Seek to perform your duty, but lay not claim to its fruits. Be you not the producer of fruits of Karma; neither shall you lean towards inaction”. (Please see the book for more details).

The Vedas speak of the interconnection between the external and the internal worlds.

Yogavaishta speaks of facts like,
¥ Just as space does not have a fixed span, time does not have a fixed span.
¥ Entire universe is contained in a sub-atomic particle.
¥ In every atom, there are worlds within worlds.
¥ The lord who is the infinite conciousness is the silent but alert witness of the cosmic dance. He is not different from the dancer and the dance (Please see pgs 50 and 51 of my book)

Today, we know that a single cell after splitting 47 times, the human body has 10,000 trillion cells and are ready to spring forth as a human being. Each cell exactly knows its job. A cell will contain some 20000 different types of proteins, though many of them live for less than ½ an hour only. The enzymes perform a thousand tasks every second. This is the staggering immensity of bio-chemical activity in our body. The wonder is that the cells manage everything on their own so smoothly for decades. All this is random action directed by nothing more than elemental rules of attraction and repulsion, without any desire or motivation behind any of the action.

Which is then the Atman ? The cells ? Proteins ? Enzymes ? Or the DNA ? No, because they are all finite and the Atman is beyond them. They all function in the 26 adjectival roles mentioned earlier, attached to Atman but Atman itself is beyond all of them. What better example of “Karmany eve Adhikaras te” can be found in real life ?

Is Atman then the nucleus ??

Dear Dr Ramanathan,

At cellular level each cell is preforming its biological function specific to it.

A conglomerate of cells..make up a --tissue--conglomerate of tissue--organ--conglomerate of organs--- a living being.

If you are looking at a cellular level...action just goes on as designed..

But cells eg liver/hepatic cells do not have a mind to be attached to action or inaction and its fruits thereof.

Its the presence of the mind that makes one either attached or not attached to the fruits of action.
Mind is not present in cells.
Mind is in the subtle body.
The human body houses the mind and gives it the gross brain as a tool to exert its effect.

Atman cannot be nucleus as Atma is Dwanda Theetam,Triguna Rahitam and has no describable Physical attributes.
Goes back again the only way to describe the Atman is Neti Neti.

renu
 

saidevo

Well-known member
namaste Dr.Ramanathan.

You have explained it very well. For the reasons Dr.Renuka has explained, I think AtmA can't be the nucleus. A common and perhaps the nearest description of AtmA is 'consciousness', which is beyond the scope of physical science. We know that although AtmA is nirguNa, in order that our finite minds can somewhat comprehend its nature, the phrase sat-chit-Ananda is used. These are not three but only one combined attribute. The sat--existence, that is AtmA/Brahman knows itself by the chit--knowledge, hidden in it and remains pUrNa prakAsha--brightness of fullness, and not sUnya andhakAra--darkness of emptiness, in which state it is the Ananda--bliss, of absolute oneness and independence.

In sRShTi--Creation, every form of manifestation is built upon layers within layers. The book 'Science of Peace' by BhagavAn DAs (downloadable at Internet Archive: Free Download: The Science Of Peace), originally published in 1948, gives a comprehensive explanation of the adhyAtma vidyA. I have serialized the book, somewhat rearranging its main contents and the explanations in the notes, at 'adhyAtmavidyA' in Synthesis: 1. The Great Questioning - Hindu Dharma Forums
 

renuka

Well-known member
namaste Dr.Ramanathan.

You have explained it very well. For the reasons Dr.Renuka has explained, I think AtmA can't be the nucleus. A common and perhaps the nearest description of AtmA is 'consciousness', which is beyond the scope of physical science. We know that although AtmA is nirguNa, in order that our finite minds can somewhat comprehend its nature, the phrase sat-chit-Ananda is used. These are not three but only one combined attribute. The sat--existence, that is AtmA/Brahman knows itself by the chit--knowledge, hidden in it and remains pUrNa prakAsha--brightness of fullness, and not sUnya andhakAra--darkness of emptiness, in which state it is the Ananda--bliss, of absolute oneness and independence.

In sRShTi--Creation, every form of manifestation is built upon layers within layers. The book 'Science of Peace' by BhagavAn DAs (downloadable at Internet Archive: Free Download: The Science Of Peace), originally published in 1948, gives a comprehensive explanation of the adhyAtma vidyA. I have serialized the book, somewhat rearranging its main contents and the explanations in the notes, at 'adhyAtmavidyA' in Synthesis: 1. The Great Questioning - Hindu Dharma Forums


Very useful reply Dear saidevoji,

In Avadhuta Gita a good explanation is given on the nature of Atma.

The real nature of "I" which is the Atman has been expressed in Vedanta Philosophy as Existence-Knowledge/Awareness-Bliss Absolute.
Sat-Chit-Ananda

Dattatreya asserts the real nature of Self 40 times in Chapter 3 of Avadhuta Gita by this following line;

Jnanamritam Samarasam Gaganopamo'ham

Jnana=knowledge;
amritam=bliss;
samarasam=existence;
gagana=space/sky
upama=as(in this context as boundless as space)
aham=I

I am Existence- Knowledge-Bliss and boundless as space.
 
OP
OP
D

Dr.S.Ramanathan

Active member
Dear Dr. Gargi Kartikayan and Dear Sri. Vyasacharya Saideo,
Thank you both for your excellent postings.My request to you, Sri saideo, is to post what you have summarised and attached of Dr. Bhagwandas, in this post itself, instead of merely as an attachment, which people may or may not read.
Dr. Renuka, Your replies are very valid and true. I deliberately mention only some lead points in each post and pose a questionaire so that people will read the full text of my book and the sahasranamam.I would request you to go through paras 6.5.3. to6.5.8. of my book pp52 and 53, which cover most of the points raised by you.
Now the question is, when ionization increases to a very high temperature, adding a lot of energy to the atom, the electrons circling it move faster and faster, pushing themselves away from the nucleus. At a critical point, they break away, thus leaving the nucleus all by itself. What is the role of this unattached nucleus then?Isthiswhere the soul departs, leaving the Atma behind?

Sri Saodeo has quoted excellently from Kathopanishad ,the unanswered questions of Nachiketas,the unanswered question of Maitreyi by Yagnavalkya in Brihadaranya Upanishad and the unanswered q .of Rama by Vasishta from Yogavasishta.
Can it then be that when the atomic particles move so fast that they get detached from the nucleus, the nucleus itself is left alone and helpless. May be that the Atman and nucleus are both indestructible, detached, alone ,etc, etc but become the centre of activities, when they get attached to atomic particles or prakrititatwas. Each can not function without the other and that is Reality.
You may kindly notice that in each one of my threads,I have deliberately raised a science and religion related topic at the end as a poser open for discussion and intense contribution.-Plasma and Turiya in one thread, the role of Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Carbon vs A U M in another and the Nucleus and Atman in this posting. I am glad the discussion is picking up.
I would request for more and additional contribution from you and other readers as well.
Thanks a lot.
Respects and regards,
Ramanathan.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Dr. Gargi Kartikayan and Dear Sri. Vyasacharya Saideo,
Thank you both for your excellent postings.My request to you, Sri saideo, is to post what you have summarised and attached of Dr. Bhagwandas, in this post itself, instead of merely as an attachment, which people may or may not read.
Dr. Renuka, Your replies are very valid and true. I deliberately mention only some lead points in each post and pose a questionaire so that people will read the full text of my book and the sahasranamam.I would request you to go through paras 6.5.3. to6.5.8. of my book pp52 and 53, which cover most of the points raised by you.
Now the question is, when ionization increases to a very high temperature, adding a lot of energy to the atom, the electrons circling it move faster and faster, pushing themselves away from the nucleus. At a critical point, they break away, thus leaving the nucleus all by itself. What is the role of this unattached nucleus then?Isthiswhere the soul departs, leaving the Atma behind?


Dear Dr RamanthanJi,

I have read the paragraphs as you suggested.
You had mentioned about cells able to preform their specific functions.
I will just add on a little.
Each cell is specifically designed to handle a certain function.
Cerebral cells will differ from hepatic cells for example.
Under microscope skeletal muscle cells will appear long spindle shaped with a centrally placed nucleus where as adipose(fat) tissue cells will have a signet ring appearence with its eccentrically placed nucleus.

info is stored in nucleus and " instructions" come from it.
Like in heart the "instructions" for the heart to beat come from the
Sino atrial node.
all these cells are already equipped with the "hardware" needed for it to function and just needs "software" for further action.

That is where the role of Prana comes in.
I will call Prana the operating "software' and the Atmic Principle the "Power supply" as Prana gets the power of animation from The Atmic Principle.
The Atmic Principle is like electricity and is "available" everywhere.
Its the Subtle body which captures this Energy and transmits it to various organs through the "wires"of Prana for the organs/cells to function biologically.

The Atmic Principle functions in the body via Radiation;where else Prana functions in the body via vibration.

In cells which do not regenerate like cells of the Spinal cord region..and injury to the Spinal cord can render one paralysed as Prana cant vibrate through a severed pathway.

If the pathway can be bridged then a paraplegic can surely walk again.
Lets hope medical science can clone spinal cord cells in the future to form bridges in the injured portion on the spinal cord.

Another learned member in this Forum told me that Cells are Achit.
I agree with him and at the same time beg to diifer also.
He is right to say Achit because cells at a unicellular level have no active awareness/mind/consciousness but i beg to differ also as Sat-Chit-Ananda is all pervading and omnipresent hence present in cells too.

So its a situation where its Achit and also Chit (due to a consciousness lying in a dormant state)
I hope i didnt sound confusing here.

Coming to your next question...about the discarded nuclues..
Its just discarded..thats all.The nucleus has served it purpose of its very existence.
In your paragraph of your book which i have read,you have mentioned about cell turn over and cellular death also.Thats just the middle name of existence itself.
Isnt this transient world ever changing and ever renewing or even ever recycling at the gross and subtle level too.

Your last line i dont quite understand..."where the soul departs,leaving the atma behind?"
How different is soul from atma?
Isnt it the same?
From what I understand:
"Death occurs when the subtle body withdraws from the gross body, essentially the withdrawal of the vital forces(Pranaas)."

Kindly further explain the last line in your post Dr RamaJi...
i am not so clear about it.
Thanks in advance
renu
 
Last edited:

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Dr RamanathanJI,

I just want to share some info I read recently..Article message of the Lord(Nature of the Atma) from Sri Sathya Sai website.
I am just typing out certain paragraphs.



LIVING BEING=GROSS BODY+SUBTLE BODY+ATMA

"The gross body is easy to understand, being the biological entity consisting of the various organs.The Subtle body is a more difficult concept since we cannot see it directly.It consists among other things of the mind and the often mentioned panca pranas.
The Atma it must be remembered is subtler then even the Subtle body.The Subtle body derives energy from the "trapped" Atma and in turn the vital forces cause the gross body to preform various actions.

The term SOUL which is often used is nothing but the ATMA+SUBTLE BODY combination.

SOUL=ATMA+SUBTLE BODY

It is because of the Atma(or rather a "portion" of it) gets caught up with the Subtle body,one often refers to the "portion" of the Atma in the body as the "embodied One".
It is same as the Self or the Jiva."


now i am going to go into a different paragraph there.

"when a person dies,his subtle body(inclusive of the "trapped atma") decouples from the gross body and "floats" away.
After the lapse of a suitable interval of time,the Subtle body(inclusive of "trapped" atma) now seeks association with a new infant body and promptly gives life to this new body.Hence we say one is reborn.


Bhagavad Gita chapter 15.8

Like the wind carrying a scent from its source, the Soul also bears along with him the senses and the mind from its previous body and assumes a new one.

the recipe for escaping from the cycle of birth and death should now be clear--the bond between Atma and subtle body must be broken and the key is permanent dissolution of the ego.Ultimately all variuos paths and spiritual exercise or Sadhanas prescribe destroying of ego and breaking the bond.
And when the bond between subtle body and Atma is broken, one is said to be liberated.
for the bond to be broken,one must as Lord Krishna says essentially conquer mind with the Self.once the conquest is succesful,thereafter one just waits out till the body dies.This time however there is no Subtle body to keep the Atma "trapped" as before and its all over.
The balloon burst and the trapped air merges forever with the atmosphere.

"You are born so that you may not be born again;you die so that you may not die again"
 
Last edited:

renuka

Well-known member
. What is the role of this unattached nucleus then?Isthiswhere the soul departs, leaving the Atma behind?

Dear Dr RamanthanJi,
I was all the while under the impression that the Soul and Atma are the same.
Only after reading the article which i typed above i have come to understand that ;

Soul= Atma+Subtle Body.



 

RVR

Well-known member
It is really interesting to know that soul = atma plus body.

Really I have not gone into this aspect in the past and I am very glad to know the difference.

All the best
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear RVRJi,

SOUL=ATMA + SUBTLE BODY

Subtle body is different from gross body.

click on the link i had given for better explanation.
 
OP
OP
D

Dr.S.Ramanathan

Active member
Atma and its adjectives

Dear Dr. Renuka Kartikayan,
I thank you for posting all the reading you have done and to have separated Atma from the subtlebody.If the subtlebody, which consists of some parts of the vasanas gets separated out, what is left out is only Atman. He is the Kshetragna, all knowing, and yet incapable of acting on his own, until he meets a suitable Kshetra.
Similarly, the Nucleus, all powerful, when left alone cannot act by itself, until it comes in contact with atomic particles again and that is the type of experiments being carried out in huge cyclotrons as in CERN.
In such a case, can Atman and Nucleus be comparable?

A little bit of kite flying from me, in response to life and death.If, whatever is attached to Atman moves so fast, that they get out of the gravity field of the earth, then there is no further attachment to this Atman and it attains Moksha.If the Atman could not get out of the gravity field of earth, it again gets reattached to life in some form. This could perhaps explain the rebirth and Moksham of some individuals.
Respects and Regards,
Ramanathan
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Dr. Renuka Kartikayan,
I thank you for posting all the reading you have done and to have separated Atma from the subtlebody.If the subtlebody, which consists of some parts of the vasanas gets separated out, what is left out is only Atman. He is the Kshetragna, all knowing, and yet incapable of acting on his own, until he meets a suitable Kshetra.
Similarly, the Nucleus, all powerful, when left alone cannot act by itself, until it comes in contact with atomic particles again and that is the type of experiments being carried out in huge cyclotrons as in CERN.
In such a case, can Atman and Nucleus be comparable?

A little bit of kite flying from me, in response to life and death.If, whatever is attached to Atman moves so fast, that they get out of the gravity field of the earth, then there is no further attachment to this Atman and it attains Moksha.If the Atman could not get out of the gravity field of earth, it again gets reattached to life in some form. This could perhaps explain the rebirth and Moksham of some individuals.
Respects and Regards,
Ramanathan


Dear Dr Ramanathan Sir,

Atman I feel cannot be compared with nucleus.
Becos Atman is beyond perception and description where as a nucleus can be comprehended.

If you are really looking for an anology..well this is closest I can get..

Ok since you chose nuclues and atomic particles..I can say the atomic particle sans nucleus is akin to the gross body and the nucleus is akin to the Soul(Atma +Subtle Body Complex)

Dear Dr Ramanthan... this is only an anology..and not a Fact.

Now coming to your second half of your reply.

You were saying that whatever which is attached to Atman if can get out of the gravity field will attain/can attain Moksha.

Dear sir...


"Jeevaatma" a portion of the all pervading Atman was "trapped" by the Subtle Body and became embodied.

So its the discoupling of the "Trapped Atma" from Subtle Body which will let the so called "Trapped Atma " free and it merges with the all pervading Atman again.
This is what it is meant as Moksha.

Remember the air in the baloon anology given by Sathya Sai Baba in the post i put earlier?

So what looks like 2 here is actually one.
The "Trapped Atma a.k.a Jeevatma" and the All Pervading Atman is essentially the same.

Hence the famous saying from Upanishads which I rearranged in a Rhyme fashion;

Two little birds,sitting on a tree
One eats fruits while the other just sees,
One knows All but the other doesn't know,
There's only One though Two are in a row.
 
Last edited:

saidevo

Well-known member
namaste Everyone.

My knowledge of science is that of college level 40 years back, which is actually rusty. Still, I shall attempt to express what I happen to know on this subject of atom and nucleus of the physical and other planes.

I think Theosophy has an explanation to understand the nature of the physical atom. Theosophy is based on the concepts of Hinduism and Buddhism, with a monotheistic God, and his manifestation as devas, angels, etc., in a hierarchical set up for the administration of the universe.

• As the well-known prANAyAma shloka indicates, there are seven planes of existence: bhu--bhuvaH--suvarga--mahaha--janaha--tapaH--satyam. In Theosophy, the equivalent names of these planes are Physical--Astral--Mental--Intutional--Spiritual--Monodic--Divine.

• All these seven planes of existence are indeed materialistic in the sense they are made of gradations of matter from the subtlest in the plane of satyam--Divine, to the physical plane of bhU--earth. If we take the unit of matter (atom) of the satya--Divine, plane as one, then according to Theosophy, the unit of matter (atom) of the other lower planes become denser as it contains 49 (that is, 7 square) times the number of the atom of the previous plane. The atom of the satyam--plane, is called paramANu in Theosophy. So, the atom of the next plane, that is tapaH--Monodic, has 49 paramANus and the number increases by 7 times going down the other lower planes.

1. Divine World (Adi) - 1 paramANu
2. Monodic World (Anupadaka) - 49 paramaNus
3. Spiritual World (Atmic) - 2,401 (49^2) paramaNus
4. Intutional World (Buddhic, Causal) - 117,649 (49^3) paramaNus
5. Mental World (Intellectual) - 5,764,801 (49^4) paramaNus
6. Astral World (Emotional, Kamaloka) - 282,475,249 (49^5) paramaNus
7. Physical World (Earth) - 13,841,287,201 (49^6) paramaNus

The unit of matter of each plane is called the UPA--Ultimate Physical Atom (or simply atom) of that plane, and the UPA of the highest plane which is also the subtlest is called paramANu as mentioned above.

• The wonder of this set up is that the subtler UPAs are contained within the grosser and permeate them! In other words, the UPA of the Physical plane floats in the matter of the Astral plane which in turn floats in the matter of the Mental Plane and so on.

How is this possible? Science has discovered that the empty space inside an atom and nucleus is immensely large compared to the space occuped by the atomic particles. It is in this space that the atoms of the subtler planes are contained one within another.

• In modern physics, the concept of a fixed nucleus comprising protons and neutrons has been replaced by the discovery of sub-atomic particles such as quarks, gluons, Neutrinos, Bosons, Fermions, and so on. The very atomic structure is sought to be explained by means of theories such as the string theory today. 'Occult chemistry', a book compiled by C.W.Leadbeater and Annie Besant gives a totally new atomic model, based on their clairvoyant investigations. I can understand this book only to some extent which is difficult to explain, so those who have interest may download this book here: Besant & Leadbeater - Occult Chemistry

• Despite the discovery of sub-atomic particles, the atom continues as the unit of ALL physical matter. Atoms combine to form elements, and the elements in turn combine to form organic and inorganic units of matter.

• Since the physical matter is gross and dense, it is not readily influenced by the action of the subtler energies of human mind, except in the case of yogis capable of performing what is known as materializations.

• Just as the atom and element are the practical unit of creation of the physical world, the practical unit of creation of astral, mental and other subtler worlds are called the elemental essence. The essential quality of this elemental essence is that it is readily influenced by thought and emotions. This is the reason it is said mano-vAk-kAyam, all that happens in the physical world has already taken shape in the higher and subtler planes.

• Although physical science has different explanations which are inconclusive, metaphysically, in our dreams we wander in the astral and mental planes/worlds, creating our own world using their elemental essences which are readily influenced by our mind.

• It is my guess that the shapes, images and patterns that we see as we close our eyes and try to sleep, which readily change with our thoughts are of astral matter, although these are usually termed hypnogogic images in physical science.

If the faculties of mind and emotion can have such influence, readily in subtle matter and eventually in the physical, what is impossible for the consciousness, which is the immanent witness as AtmA of everything in this universe?

The Sanskrit term AtmA, Atman is identical to Brahman/Brahmam. It is this universal AtmA that shines as the witness inside all jIvas. The individual jIva is not what is AtmA trapped in matter but only a pale reflection of the chaitanya--intelligence of the immanent AtmA in the matter of antaHkaraNa. The jIva, because of its pUrvIka vAsanas, readily identifies itself with the reflection, rather than the source.

Let us not forget that BhagavAn Sathya Sai Baba's audience/devotees comprise people of several nations and religions at various levels of spiritual advancement. So he might be explaining things in a way everyone can understand. His more serious Hindu philosophical teachings are contained his 'VAhinIs'. In the Library, I have given a comprehensive list of books and speeches by Baba.

References:
01. 'Occult chemistry', by C.W.Leadbeater and Annie Besant
Besant & Leadbeater - Occult Chemistry

02. 'Etheric Double, Astral, Mental and Causal Bodies' by Artuur E.Powell
The Etheric, Astral, Mental, And Causal Bodies by Arthur E Powell
 
OP
OP
D

Dr.S.Ramanathan

Active member
Dear Dr. Renuka,
Both Atman and Nucleus are bereft of any attachment. Hence Nucleus can not be compared to Atman plus subtlebody.
Reg the second kite flying of mine,Atman which has crossed the gravity barrier can be considered to have attained Moksham, while the Atman that has stayed behind, has obviously mixed with the rest on the analogy given by HH sai Baba.
Does this sound reasonable?
Regards and Respects,
Ramanathan.
 
OP
OP
D

Dr.S.Ramanathan

Active member
Dear Sri Saideo,
Thank you for the enormous information you have given, which I was not aware of, particularly of the seven worlds and their paramanu status. The metaphysical explanation you have given is interesting and could be true.
I have mentioned about the subatomic particles and the string theory in my book and dealt with briefly.
The question is: if it is believed that today's science explains what was perceived in the scriptures, what is the scientific equivalent of Atman? can Nucleus be anywhere near it?
I have not been able to download either of the two references you have given. I was particularly interested in the AnnieBesant ref you had given.
Regards and Respects,
Ramanathan.
 

saidevo

Well-known member
namaste Dr.Ramanathan.

IMHO, the very term 'nucleus' which essentially comprises matter, sounds physical, finite and local, directly in opposition to the subtle, infinite and universal nature of Brahman who is the Atman. He is essentially 'consciousness', which is the subtlest kind of trans-physical energy, and this energy is imbibed with (not sure if this is the right word) chaitanya/chit--intelligence. The sat-chit-Ananda absolutes of Brahman, in manifestation, is transformed into kriyA-jnAna-ichChA shaktis, as BhagavAn DAs explains. We can readily understand Brahman's nature as consciousness because everyone of us have it and is aware of it.

Today's science can explain what is perceived in the Hindu scriptures only to the extent it is physical. Unless, physical science can find out what consciousness is, which is of course beyond its realm, it cannot even understand, let alone explain, the metaphysical philosophy of our scritpures.

Something interesting, I am reminded of. Some years back, I was an avid reader of Theosophy, specially the books of CWL and AB and the compilation of their work by Arthur Powell. I think Leadbeater suggested somewhere that if our scientists and medical doctors receive training in yoga and meditation and acquire the capability of clairvoyant investigation and astral projection, then they can serve humanity in a far better way, even after their death!

The Scribd Website requires membership to download from their server, but the membership is free.

Another good book to peruse is 'Beyond the Physical' by Donald J.DeGracia, downloadable at Beyond The Physical .
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Dr. Renuka,
Both Atman and Nucleus are bereft of any attachment. Hence Nucleus can not be compared to Atman plus subtlebody.
Reg the second kite flying of mine,Atman which has crossed the gravity barrier can be considered to have attained Moksham, while the Atman that has stayed behind, has obviously mixed with the rest on the analogy given by HH sai Baba.
Does this sound reasonable?
Regards and Respects,
Ramanathan.


Dear Dr RamanathanJi,
Atma is invariably bereft of any attachment....thats true.
But nucleus is gross only.
i was only giving an anology sir earlier when i said about Nuclues ,atma ,subtle body etc.in response to your question.
Thank you very much for reply sir....

Dear sir, the gravity field of the earth does not decide Moksha .
Astronauts who leave the earths gravitational field and in space sans gravity are not in a state of Moksha.
I dont quite understand this concept of gravity and moksha stated here.

please further explain sir..
 
Last edited:

amala

Well-known member
Can we say that Atma is Brahman as per Advaita (all are Brahman anyway) and if Atma is Brahman, then isn't it nirguna (attribute-less). How can something without attributes have adjectives to describe it?
 

Nara

Well-known member
Can we say that Atma is Brahman as per Advaita (all are Brahman anyway) and if Atma is Brahman, then isn't it nirguna (attribute-less). How can something without attributes have adjectives to describe it?

Oh dear Amala, welcome to contradictions, welcome to unanswered questions, welcome to dogma, welcome to assertions, welcome to doctrines that must be obeyed not questioned.

How did pure jnyana fall into ajnyana? who is the teacher and who is the taught? If the teacher is free of ajnyana, then should he not know the pupil is just an illusion? Why go on for 18 chapters at someone who is just unreal? If the teacher also is in ajnyana, how much of his teachings can we believe?

So many questions, not a whole lot of answers that make sense. Welcome to reality dear Amala....
 

renuka

Well-known member
Can we say that Atma is Brahman as per Advaita (all are Brahman anyway) and if Atma is Brahman, then isn't it nirguna (attribute-less). How can something without attributes have adjectives to describe it?


dear amala,

you are 100% correct.Clever girl......
You are so true...its actually "wrong" to even say Atman/Brahman has adjectives.

So far its always described as Neti Neti(Not This,Not This).

In Avadutha Gita there is a stanza that goes like this:


I am neither a fool nor a scholar
I am neither taciturn nor talkative
How can I describe Brahman through arguement or counterarguement?
I am by nature blissful and free

 

amala

Well-known member
Dear Mama,

Yes these are the questions that I have asked myself as well. Perhaps its not completely unreal nor is it completely real. Its indescribable. It is real enough in our plane of Maya but only when you compare it to Brahman is it unreal. Perhaps its one of those things where you have to "realise" and not describe, as even attempting to use words to describe Brahman, we are putting constraints and limits to that which is unconstrained and unlimited.

Renuji, youre an expert in advaita...maybe you can reconcile mama's questions...



 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Mama,

Yes these are the questions that I have asked myself as well. Perhaps its not completely unreal nor is it completely real. Its indescribable. It is real enough in our plane of Maya but only when you compare it to Brahman is it unreal. Perhaps its one of those things where you have to "realise" and not describe, as even attempting to use words to describe Brahman, we are putting constraints and limits to that which is unconstrained and unlimited.

Renuji, youre an expert in advaita...maybe you can reconcile mama's questions...



Dear amala,
I am no expert in advaitam but I can help out a little here.
coming to your question... before that I must tell you that I am not a rigid follower of any school of thought.

I wont call my self a non dualist(advaita) or a dualist(dvaita) or a qualified non dualist(vishisthadvaita) also becos I feel all of us move from these 3 states on regular basis.

for example...when one is in distress...he prays to God and God answers his prayers.. at that moment God is Lord to the bhakta and bhakta is servant...Dasoham..that is Dualism

When we are happy and singing bhajans at temple we feel our hearts filled with bliss and feel god in us...at the same time enjoy the feeling that despite being in us we can stilladore and praise God...that is Qualified Non Dualism(Vishistaadvitam)

When we are trying to unravel the mystery of God and creation for a transient second maybe we can"imagine" that there is Only one..Ekameva Avdvaitam Brahman.
But that feeling is only an "imagination" for me at least or most of us...becos i still have my physical body and for all practical purposes pairs of opposite still exist.
True advaitins are only Brahman verily and they are not embodied to even be typing or explaning this.

True advaitam is very hard to comprehend or even experience for a mere mortal like me.

Even when you say that the Tat Tvam Asi ,Aham Brahmasmi there is still a little amount of Vishisthaadvaitam.
There is still two..Tat and Tvam.
Aham and Brahman.

True advaitam will be "I am I"(Aham Aham)

Unity in diversity is the middle name of Vishisthadvaitiam.
QualifiedNon Dualism(Vishsishtadvaitam) is inseperably unity .

But what are you united to?
This is what the advaitins explore.
Why should we be united to it...if not one and the same...

For explanation purposes of anything there has to be Two.
That is why you can still see slight Vishistadvaitam left even in Mahavakya "Tat Tvam Asi and Aham Brahmasmi"
For example if i want to teach a child ..about a chair.
I have to show him a chair first..
without an object how can the mind comprehend?

Now the other question is The Real and The Unreal.
This phenomenal world is called Unreal by Advaitins..

Brahman Satyam,Jagat Mithyam.

Now is this world Real or Unreal?
Well Amala, if you take a match and light a fire and burn your hand with it..what do you feel?
Pain...isnt it?
If the world was false would you have even felt this pain?


Then why do advaitins say the world is false?

There is a very famous analogy given about the rope and snake.
You see a rope in the dark and mistake it for a snake.
The rope is real(present) but the snake is unreal(only an illusion by the mind).

Well if you dissect deeper into the meaning of the saying "Jagat Mithyam"(world is unreal)..
You will realize that its the transientness of this Real world which is actually Unreal.

Because if the world is really Unreal...then I can do whatever I want and get away with it.
There will be no Karma too because how can there be Karma for something which never existed in the first place.

I can even murder a person and get way with it because I(the murderer..is Unreal) and the victim(is Unreal too)
All I need to say in court is "Your honour,I did not murder because i am Unreal,the victim is also Unreal and you yourself Your Honour are unreal"
Imagine this...

I hope you understand what I am trying to tell you here Amala,
It's us who believes that this Transient World is Permenant and this is what is called Mithyam (Unreal)

Whether Dualism,Qualified Non dualism or Non Dualism..it does not really matter to me at least.

After all we have the mantra;

Om Purnamadah Purnamidam
Purnaat purnamudaccyate
Purnasya Purnamaadaya
Purnamevaavashisyate

that is full,this is full,
full emerges from full,
when full is extracted from full,
full verily remains.
 
Last edited:

saidevo

Well-known member
namaste Everyone.

If I may add to the conversation between Renukaji and Amalaji, here is some info about the mahAvAkyas:

If we look at the mahAvAkyas, we would find that except in two statements, they all speak from the POV of duality. Arranging the mahAvAkyas from the POV of non-duality to duality, we get:

ekam evadvitiyam brahma -- Brahman is one, without a second.
-- Chandogya upaniShad VI.ii.1

prajnanam brahma -- Consciousness is Brahman.
-- Aitareya upaniShad 3.3, of Rg Veda

sarvaM khalvidaM brahma -- All of this is brahman.
-- Chandogya upaniShad 3.14.1 of the Sama Veda

ayam Atma brahma -- This Self is Brahman.
-- Mandukya upaniShad 1.2, of Atharva Veda

tat tvam asi -- Thou art that.
-- Chandogya upaniShad 6.8.7, of Sama Veda, Kaivalya upaniShad

aham brahmAsmi -- I am Brahman.
-- Brhadaranyaka upaniShad 1.4.10, of Yajur Veda, Mahanarayana upaniShad

Inasmuch as very term 'upaniShad' requires a disciple to sit by the side of his guru and then both contemplate together on the meaning of the Reality, all the above mahAvAkyas might be considered as teachings, rather than statements. It's beautiful, the way the guru leads his disciples to the Reality of the Truth through these teachings:

• To start with, the guru makes a statement to indicate the target:
"Brahman is one, without a second."

• Then he describes the nature of that Brahman:
"Consciousness is Brahman."

• Lest the disciple think that only human beings with their superior consciousness are Brahman, the guru expands on the idea:
"All of this is brahman."

• And then he gets personal, first by refering to the Self in everyone:
"This Self is Brahman."

• The disciple is anxious that if he and his guru can ever be equated because of the unity of Self, so the guru assures him:
"Thou art that."

This statement, which is the most famous, is perhaps the most significant one. Here Brahman is described as (a mere) tad--that, as if it is something distinct and located farther in space. tvam--thou, is more real to us than tad--that. The dhAtu--root, of both these terms simply indicate two entities: tad--that, tva--the other. The pronouns tad--that and tvam--you, have been derived from these roots.

The teaching of this mahAvAkya is "you are that": that is what is considered 'you' and what is considered as 'that'--which is actually inside you--are not two different things but only an identical Reality.

• Finally, the guru zeros in on the first person and teaches "I am Brahman", and urges the disciple to have this thought persistently in mind at all times so he may eventually realize it.

Significantly, the teaching is, 'ahaM brahmAsmi'--'I AM Brahman', not 'I was Brahman' or 'I will (one day) be Brahman'. I AM Brahman in my waking, dreaming and deep sleep states and the fourth state that I would be eventually be capable of existing--in this or in another birth.

The shikaram--peak, of all these mahAvAkyas of the upaniShads, is the cryptic statement of the Rig Veda about the Reality: ekam sat--Reality/Existence is One.--RV i.164.46.

**********
 

renuka

Well-known member
namaste Everyone.

If I may add to the conversation between Renukaji and Amalaji, here is some info about the mahAvAkyas:

If we look at the mahAvAkyas, we would find that except in two statements, they all speak from the POV of duality. Arranging the mahAvAkyas from the POV of non-duality to duality, we get:

ekam evadvitiyam brahma -- Brahman is one, without a second.
-- Chandogya upaniShad VI.ii.1

prajnanam brahma -- Consciousness is Brahman.
-- Aitareya upaniShad 3.3, of Rg Veda

sarvaM khalvidaM brahma -- All of this is brahman.
-- Chandogya upaniShad 3.14.1 of the Sama Veda

ayam Atma brahma -- This Self is Brahman.
-- Mandukya upaniShad 1.2, of Atharva Veda

tat tvam asi -- Thou art that.
-- Chandogya upaniShad 6.8.7, of Sama Veda, Kaivalya upaniShad

aham brahmAsmi -- I am Brahman.
-- Brhadaranyaka upaniShad 1.4.10, of Yajur Veda, Mahanarayana upaniShad

Inasmuch as very term 'upaniShad' requires a disciple to sit by the side of his guru and then both contemplate together on the meaning of the Reality, all the above mahAvAkyas might be considered as teachings, rather than statements. It's beautiful, the way the guru leads his disciples to the Reality of the Truth through these teachings:

• To start with, the guru makes a statement to indicate the target:
"Brahman is one, without a second."

• Then he describes the nature of that Brahman:
"Consciousness is Brahman."

• Lest the disciple think that only human beings with their superior consciousness are Brahman, the guru expands on the idea:
"All of this is brahman."

• And then he gets personal, first by refering to the Self in everyone:
"This Self is Brahman."

• The disciple is anxious that if he and his guru can ever be equated because of the unity of Self, so the guru assures him:
"Thou art that."

This statement, which is the most famous, is perhaps the most significant one. Here Brahman is described as (a mere) tad--that, as if it is something distinct and located farther in space. tvam--thou, is more real to us than tad--that. The dhAtu--root, of both these terms simply indicate two entities: tad--that, tva--the other. The pronouns tad--that and tvam--you, have been derived from these roots.

The teaching of this mahAvAkya is "you are that": that is what is considered 'you' and what is considered as 'that'--which is actually inside you--are not two different things but only an identical Reality.

• Finally, the guru zeros in on the first person and teaches "I am Brahman", and urges the disciple to have this thought persistently in mind at all times so he may eventually realize it.

Significantly, the teaching is, 'ahaM brahmAsmi'--'I AM Brahman', not 'I was Brahman' or 'I will (one day) be Brahman'. I AM Brahman in my waking, dreaming and deep sleep states and the fourth state that I would be eventually be capable of existing--in this or in another birth.

The shikaram--peak, of all these mahAvAkyas of the upaniShads, is the cryptic statement of the Rig Veda about the Reality: ekam sat--Reality/Existence is One.--RV i.164.46.

**********


Dear SaiDevo,

You are indeed the Shikaram(peak) of this whole thread itself.
Fantastic explanation.
Keep up the good work..
Everyone will benefit..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top
Thank you for visiting TamilBrahmins.com

You seem to have an Ad Blocker on.

We depend on advertising to keep our content free for you. Please consider whitelisting us in your ad blocker so that we can continue to provide the content you have come here to enjoy.

Alternatively, consider upgrading your account to enjoy an ad-free experience along with numerous other benefits. To upgrade your account, please visit the account upgrades page

You can also donate financially if you can. Please Click Here on how you can do that.

I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks