Appreciation

[amala]

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dear ravi,

i will give you a viewpoint, but like all comments on generalizations, there are probably more exceptions to the rule. so there is no definite right or wrong answers. except every answer, should begin with 'it all depends'....


ravi, you have made a broad based statement, which i am, for arguement's sake, agree 100%. so we have a gem of a guy, offering himself, and there are no takers.

now in the lottery that is marriage, all we can hope is to have a winning ticket if not the jackpot. unfortunately this gem has no marketable product by today's standards. but there are ways achieve an aim if he has his priorities right and willling to shed a few of his expectations, ie come to the level of market correcting itself.

nobody can force anyone to marry the gem, because he is just that. you are familiar with the situation of our community and i agree with you, that many a good boy gets screwed. in the previous generation, the marriageability of a daughter was a concern. today the tables are turned.

i know of no spinsters of the previous generations in my family, as the family compromised the expectations. to them, an unmarried daughter was more of a concern than the set initial expectations of the girl. many of my cousins, rather unwillingly, married short, fat , bald or older (upt 13 years difference) boys, and made a life out of it. nobody asked them afterwards, whether they were happy. our circumstances did not afford the luxury of happines. only the security provided by a marriage, and whatever joys children could bring. our origins were that humble.

so, along the same lines, if i were the gem of today, i would modify the standards - along the same lines described above. i am quite sure there is bound to be someone out there destined and good luck to him. sticking to an uncompromising expectation is not going to work, from what few details and generalizations that i have.

best wishes....

Apologies for butting in again... I was actually keenly looking forward to your answer to Ravi's question. Not at all what I had expected to be honest.

I think in todays times girls and perhaps some boys have their own preferences and criteria and are not willing for whatever reason to modify or compromise much and thus are termed picky or choosy. Modifying standards and just settling for what one can get is a tad defeatist not to mention so passe.

I would recommend the gem in question to increase its marketability (How? Good question. I dont have the answer though!) and add value to it rather than modify or compromise its standards, only because the quality of the takers will be very rewarding. Hope I'm making sense

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Ravi,

The discussion has branched off in several directions and I welcome that. Basically, every one - boy as well as girl - will desire to "marry up" unless it is a love marriage as correctly put by Amala ji. The point which I wanted to highlight in this particular incident is neither the girl's ambitions nor the relevance or justifiability of the conditions, but she chose to agree to meet that boy in person after the parents had agreed horoscopes and talked to each other and she knew pretty well that she was meeting a financially lowly placed boy who is the only child of his parents, with a not very highly paid job. Should she have insulted him like this? Could she not have told him on phone or by e-mail? It is this arrogance which is the point.

Sri Sangom ji,

I could very well understand the story and your concern.....And took the interest for such rebuttal....

 

[C RAVI]

Revathi,

I happen to believe most girls, if treated with love and understanding, will reciprocate in kind, even if she had placed some conditions that may seem unreasonable.

Cheers!

That is highly speculative Sri Nara ji....

When such terms and conditions are placed by the girl with her list of requirements, a incapable guy wont have the confidence to take it up. He would be doubtful of himself to go ahead with the challenge when he knows his capacity. And there is no guarantee that a girl will still love a guy for his true love and genuine efforts in fulfilling his promise to the girl and still fail to achieve.....Its a matter of ones life...Both guys and gals want peaceful and healthy married life. No guy would like to live his life with guilty conscious and or with the hatred of his wife till the death if he happen to be unsuccessful in his commitment...

 

[kunjuppu]

amala

the terms 'picky and choosy' is perhaps a reflection of what each one believes their true worth and what they 'deserve' particularly when it comes to choosing mates. i have seen the term used more by the parents.

i find, most people are pretty realistic in setting their selection standards, because they want to set themselves to win. unconsciously, i think, they change their requirements, because the reality of a relationship may be quite different from an idealized list and between any two people, compromises & adjustments are what makes a relationship tick. or as the stones say 'you cant get all that you want'

life is full of surprises amala. to stick oneself for life, to one set of uncompromising criteria, and using that as a guideline to find a mate to build a life together, can be disastrous. with each year, our tastes and requirements change. how many times have we looked at an old flame or object of interest, and wondered 'what did i find in him (or her)' ?

once hitched, there is a beauty in growing together, but then that is another topic. here we are trying to suggest avenues for a gem who is after an unappreciative crowd.

i think gem should move on, instead of trying to market himself to a hopeless situation. he should seek a more appreciative crowd, than trying to re-make or market himself to a losing proposition.

i also think, that we humans are meant to mate and to be together to build a family. i look upon any mating game from this perspective

 

[Nara]

....When such terms and conditions are placed by the girl with her list of requirements, a incapable guy wont have the confidence to take it up.

Ravi, I don't know how many here remember the movie Manal Kayiru. In this movie, the boy places impossible conditions like his wife must be a veg, but must cook NV, must have passed first year of B.Sc. and after that stopped collge, and few more such crazy conditions. The marriage broker marries him off to a girl who was supposed to have met all the conditions, but in fact she does not meet even a single condition. Since that was a movie everything works out fine in the end. But, there is a moral that we can draw. One may put all kinds of conditions, but in the end, one has to find happiness, happiness won't find you.

About the gem of a guy you were talking about, in our system of arranged marriage, whether or not a prospective husband is a gem is unknown to the girl. She and her parents will have make a judgment about that. So, the gem will have to shine a little, make her see the gem that he is.

But that is not all, it is even more important to realize that what constitutes a gem is subjective. The characteristics that the boy thinks make him a gem may not be the same the girl is looking for in a gem. In the end, the boy and the girl will have to somehow communicate and come to a common understanding of their mutual expectations.

Then, as parents, people of my generation must provide the love and support to make it happen. Even if some the girl's expectations are unreasonable -- you know like தனிக்குடுத்தனம் -- we the parents need to have some patience and hope that a reasonable solution can be worked out that all can live with. As they say, அன்புக்கும் உண்டோ அடைக்கும் தாள்.

These are girls coming from similar backgrounds as our own. They are no less loving than our own daughters. May be a girl here or a girl there is like the one Shri Sangom cited, calling the boy's parents two devils. But such cases are exceptions. When I look around marriages all around my circle of family and friends, both in India and USA, I have not seen such extreme cases. There is always some வீட்டுக்கு வீடு வாசப்படி type quarrels. Almost all of these are about petty things, blown way out of proportion due to ego and pride.

I hope all this makes some sense. There is no canned answer, it is difficult, everyone (boys, girls, and the parents) will have to work hard for it, have patience, understanding and love, keep the eyes on the prize -- happiness, happiness, happiness.

Cheers!

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Raghy, Thank You
But this is going to be a long post as a reponse to our friends!

Shri Ravi,

First of all, I understand your questions - But to answer ,

Even today, a boy of higher stature is not willing to marry a girl of lower status/smaller town and it is a fact. Analyzing the recent marriages of my male cousins in last 20 years, they cleverly chose well to do girls where the girls parents themselves indirectly gifted the boy with various presents and also he knows he will inherit a lot of wealth.So, sorry - I am not seeing any major changes in the men's /boy's parent's attitude towards dowry - still the goal is to get comfort through marriage , but very cleverly executed and euphumized.

So, the situation is , as many genuinely suffering guys are there, there are as many girls as well and no body to take their causes because of the myth that the girls have "arrived".The reasons are many - No prof qualification, no smartness, no fair colour, no beauty and the list goes on and on.This is also a fact.But these girls face their life boldly as spinsters, taking up some business, work taking this in a stride (I have one unmarried athai who was rejected for dowry reasons in early 70s ).Or they are bold enough for ic marriages (for which they get all bricks and bickerings)

This kind of behaviour is due to our erosion of values and who (both boys and girls) see material comfort, want pagattu perumai, who want to get money without working hard , which was clearly practiced mostly by Pillayai Pethava in the last 40 - 60 years. So the tambram society showed this as way "expected "by justifying in the last 50 years and this is blindly followed by some girls today .Following Shashtram where comfortable for them from Aadi Seer to Diwali seer , silk sarees etc - but quoting our seers/gurus/shastrams/vedas etc for Girl's expected behaviour and moral standards, following traditions and being obedient to in-laws however they are - though to my knowledge our gurus have not advocated this.

Shri Sangom,

I have to disagree with your observation - "If a boy's parents had agreed to "penn paarkkal" in those days, it could be presumed that all dowry matters have been settled"

No sir, atleast 3 instances in my relatives circle in the last twenty years - including my siblings,we were forced to put up with the demands - right from hotel booking for every relative, transport, Cars to airport and train station, Aadi Seer, etc and ridiculed at every instance. So I am sorry that I have to disagree.

And my statement was towards hypocratic and demanding people - both gender - but the sympathy the boy gets is not what a girl gets - all attributed to shastras and traditions and ridiculing the lack of planning of the girls family in preparing for the marriage in terms of Gold, Diamaon, Pattiram, Pudavai etc and the girl's side was expected to obey and indulge a boy.

You have posted - " In any case girls were not belittled in this way. Perhaps you think it is all OK since it is a girl who is doing it. "

I am sorry you made this statement - I thought I clearly said in my post that I do not support anybody - neither such boys of yester years nor such girls of today .But only as a community, the kind of comments the girl gets is what is reflected in my post.I also disagree that "girls were not belittled " - Sir, You are fortunate enough to have noble people around you , but sadly this is not the case always and in general.

Shri Nara,

"No boy needs to place these condition, these are automatic, the way they are supposed to be - I like this!


Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Shri Raghy, Thank You
But this is going to be a long post as a reponse to our friends!

Shri Ravi,

First of all, I understand your questions - But to answer ,

Even today, a boy of higher stature is not willing to marry a girl of lower status/smaller town and it is a fact. Analyzing the recent marriages of my male cousins in last 20 years, they cleverly chose well to do girls where the girls parents themselves indirectly gifted the boy with various presents and also he knows he will inherit a lot of wealth.So, sorry - I am not seeing any major changes in the men's /boy's parent's attitude towards dowry - still the goal is to get comfort through marriage , but very cleverly executed and euphumized.

So, the situation is , as many genuinely suffering guys are there, there are as many girls as well and no body to take their causes because of the myth that the girls have "arrived".The reasons are many - No prof qualification, no smartness, no fair colour, no beauty and the list goes on and on.This is also a fact.But these girls face their life boldly as spinsters, taking up some business, work taking this in a stride (I have one unmarried athai who was rejected for dowry reasons in early 70s ).Or they are bold enough for ic marriages (for which they get all bricks and bickerings)

This kind of behaviour is due to our erosion of values and who (both boys and girls) see material comfort, want pagattu perumai, who want to get money without working hard , which was clearly practiced mostly by Pillayai Pethava in the last 40 - 60 years. So the tambram society showed this as way "expected "by justifying in the last 50 years and this is blindly followed by some girls today .Following Shashtram where comfortable for them from Aadi Seer to Diwali seer , silk sarees etc - but quoting our seers/gurus/shastrams/vedas etc for Girl's expected behaviour and moral standards, following traditions and being obedient to in-laws however they are - though to my knowledge our gurus have not advocated this.

Shri Sangom,

I have to disagree with your observation - "If a boy's parents had agreed to "penn paarkkal" in those days, it could be presumed that all dowry matters have been settled"

No sir, atleast 3 instances in my relatives circle in the last twenty years - including my siblings,we were forced to put up with the demands - right from hotel booking for every relative, transport, Cars to airport and train station, Aadi Seer, etc and ridiculed at every instance. So I am sorry that I have to disagree.

And my statement was towards hypocratic and demanding people - both gender - but the sympathy the boy gets is not what a girl gets - all attributed to shastras and traditions and ridiculing the lack of planning of the girls family in preparing for the marriage in terms of Gold, Diamaon, Pattiram, Pudavai etc and the girl's side was expected to obey and indulge a boy.

You have posted - " In any case girls were not belittled in this way. Perhaps you think it is all OK since it is a girl who is doing it. "

I am sorry you made this statement - I thought I clearly said in my post that I do not support anybody - neither such boys of yester years nor such girls of today .But only as a community, the kind of comments the girl gets is what is reflected in my post.I also disagree that "girls were not belittled " - Sir, You are fortunate enough to have noble people around you , but sadly this is not the case always and in general.

Shri Nara,

"No boy needs to place these condition, these are automatic, the way they are supposed to be - I like this!


Namaskarams
Revathi

When boys are lining up to marry, do you thing the girls parents can insist on simple vaidik wedding ceremonies.
Up until a mid-80s, the grooms's side called all the shots. Now when the situation has turned around, why not the girls' parents agree to only reasonable terms?

The bottom-line:
The current financial standing determines one's status, education, qualifications are a ruse.

With regards,
Swami

 

[kahanam]

I am deeply touched and moved by the first post of Shri. AnanthaNarayanan and the subsequent ones based on today's economic and marriage scenes.Basic values count for everything and it does not cost anything to cultivate them including respect and affection to one's parents!

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom, the two incidences you have cited seem to be third or even fourth hand accounts. To see a trend of such instances you are probably aware of many more such cases that you have not cited. May be, but, I see several problems.

• These are not first hand accounts, when stories get retold much may be lost or added
• Even in first-hand accounts, there is always another side, கண்ணால் காண்பதும் பொய், காதால் கேட்பதும் பொய், தீரவிசாரிப்பதே மெய்
• Why must a boy accept these conditions anyway? There is no compulsion in these matters?
• What is the basis to think such incidences are becoming more common now to suspect a new trend? Is it not possible that such girls existed even in the past who silently accomplished their selfish interests?
• Manipulating girls have existed all along. Did not Kaikeyi (her father) lay down conditions for marrying Dasaratha?

IMO, these are never black and white. Each situation is unique with its own nuances. Even though I live in USA, by affinity and circumstance, I have very close contact with many people in India, as do many others in my situation. We get to see the reality as it is, and, due to our western experience, we get to see how it could be as well.

Dear Shri Nara,

I narrated it in the context that today, the younger generation is more and more focussed on enjoying "their lives", and less and less interested in their duties and responsiblities as a son/daughter, dil/sil, etc. Even granting that the girls have a right to decide about their lives, do you not agree that the girl could have avoided belittling the boy when she very well knew his background, job, salary, etc., and the fact that her parents as also the boy's are living in the same city, and the parents on both sides had found each other acceptable.

As regards your dictum not to believe anything I feel yours is a circular argument. If it is true that கண்ணால் காண்பதும் பொய், காதால் கேட்பதும் பொய், (whatever you see or hear is unreal or false), how does one go about தீரவிசாரிப்பது (detailed enquiry)? Will that also not involve seeing and hearing, which, by your theory are also false? I am not bringing here the classic example of paternity being a matter of pure belief (even a DNA analysis may not always be conclusive, as you might be able to guess), but believing in a rational way instead of blindly, and taking into account the reliability of the source, will be the best course available to us in matters such as these, I believe.

In the earlier case of 'double devils' (!) the news was third hand for me. But I do not find any special grounds for this being a lie or even twisted truth, because the boy is an eligible bachelor, not overaged, good financial position, etc., and this episode came out when my relative casually asked him whether his son's marriage will be soon. I do not think someone will simply feel happy in picturising an unknown (to the questioner, i.e., my relative) girl, just for the fun of it. Considering the educational levels of the boy, his father and my relative who narrated this incident to me, I do not feel there would have been any twisting of facts because there is practically no need for it.

In the present case the boy is over-aged, not a paying job, and from poorer financial background. The girl and her father also are equally placed. Probably the girl is also around 30 and her parents must be interested in seeing her married. The interview was part of this. I have second hand information - from the boy to his uncle and from that uncle to me. Here also this topic came up when we were discussing the marriage prospects of another similarly placed boy, known to both of us and then my friend narrated this to say that it will be difficult for such boys to get a girl. Here again neither the boy nor the girl is known to me and I do not think my friend will have any vested interest in simply spinning a yarn just for amusement. And, here also the persons involved - the boy and my friend - are sufficiently educated and intelligent to grasp what the other person is saying, I believe.

It will be difficult to believe anything if one goes by your criteria. Kindly think about it and elucidate for our benefit and future guidance, how and how far you apply those principles in your daily life.

This is the case even today. They are still not free to be anyway she likes. She still does not have the freedoms her counterparts in the west take for granted. They are still governed by societal norms and the wagging tongues of heartless third parties. Boys wanting girls to work and bring in a second paycheck is one of the important reasons parents are getting their girls qualified for work outside home. A by-product of this is some girls now want more freedoms. This is seen as zero-sum predicament, like any freedom given to the girl is against her in-laws.

I feel you are not at all in tune with what is happening today. And I also observe that perhaps you have no way of knowing the present position about girls' education, the freedom/s enjoyed by them and whether boys generally insist on a second pay-check, etc. So I reserve my comments for the time being.

A girl who refers to her future parent-in-law as those two-devils is apt to remain unmarried, why would a boy marry such a girl? Barring such extreme cases, girls working out an understanding with her future husband in a reasonable manner is a welcome change. I don't think unreasonably selfish girls are more common than unreasonably selfish boys and unreasonably selfish boy's parents -- I can't say the reverse with the same degree of confidence. With a little bit of accommodation and love, most girls can be won over by the in-laws. Holding the girls responsible for family discord between sons and parents is, shall we say easy. Preventing discord through accommodation and love is hard. The easy way will result in grief for everyone, but the hard way promises rich dividends, a well adjusted family with lots of love and happiness, happiness, happiness .....

Here again I find a sort of déjà vu of the earlier closed thread on icms. So, I better stop giving my views.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

Simpliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii superrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrb sirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Not only I will be a responsible son but also a responsible superior.

will forward for sure.

 

[ganeshrev]

When boys are lining up to marry, do you thing the girls parents can insist on simple vaidik wedding ceremonies.
Up until a mid-80s, the grooms's side called all the shots. Now when the situation has turned around, why not the girls' parents agree to only reasonable terms?

The bottom-line:
The current financial standing determines one's status, education, qualifications are a ruse.

With regards,
Swami

No, even today, rest all aside, a girls side can not have a say on how the marriage has to be done. This is the reality

 

[SwamiTaBra]

No, even today, rest all aside, a girls side can not have a say on how the marriage has to be done. This is the reality

That can happen if they stick to their stand. In many cases it the ostentatious weddings are not solely due to the boy's side.
We now don't hear even in hushed tones in brahmin marriages how much gold or silver was given as dowry. In other communities 50 sovereigns is considered modest.

In this respect, we have moved for the better. Now the girls demanding Rs.1 lac/p.m and more as boy's salary are widely seen.

Regards,
Swami

 

[ganeshrev]

That can happen if they stick to their stand. In many cases it the ostentatious weddings are not solely due to the boy's side.
We now don't hear even in hushed tones in brahmin marriages how much gold or silver was given as dowry. In other communities 50 sovereigns is considered modest.

Sir, what ever you send is ok for upper middle class families (Applicable for both genders) in bigger towns and cities.

Please look at thousands of families in small towns - the case is entireley different.

Regards
Revathi

 

[C RAVI]

No, even today, rest all aside, a girls side can not have a say on how the marriage has to be done. This is the reality

Sri Revathy ji,

True.....Boys side are deciding how the marriage has to be done.

This reality comes to picture when a girl is marrying to a family higher in financial status than that of her parents and or a family of similar status and when girl's parents can afford to do some how owing to the potential of the alliance.

We can agree that higher standard guys/guys parents are ignoring marrying girls from poor family and that is condemnable IMHO.

Girls wishing to achieve higher status by marrying a comparatively better off guys is no wrong and we all can happily accept her choice and progress..

The objections/botheration arises only when a girl places such demands to a guy belonging to her social/financial standards, having known his background. May be her deep rooted aims and sincere responsibilities towards her parents and siblings makes her blind and keep airing her demands to any guy irrespective of this status and having known his background....Personally I have no grievances against such girls as a human being. In fact I get emotionally week to find all of us living our life purely on monetary values and this is the ground reality of human life. Blaming struggling guys and struggling girls would be never ending and no one could establish perfectly as whom to be blamed.

Every girl and boy loves to be married and have his/her own happy family and happy home with kids. Such girls (as per the story narrated by Sri Sangom ji) may either one fine day have her luck working in favor of her or she may change her mind set to limit her expectations comparatively in future. Or she may even opt to remain single ever as an independent working girl. This may or may not offend her parents and the girl may or may not repent in her old age when hardly some one would stand by her. The same goes with guys and their parents.

 

[ganeshrev]

The objections/botheration arises only when a girl places such demands to a guy belonging to her social/financial standards, having known his background. May be her deep rooted aims and sincere responsibilities towards her parents and siblings makes her blind and keep airing her demands to any guy irrespective of this status and having known his background.

Shri Ravi,


Since I dont know about this story first hand and I dont know about the girl, I will refrain from commenting on this .

But Sir, is it not common for the boys also to be in such predicament and ask the would-be wife to help in bringing up his family/siblings? Also it has happened as we can see in many joint families of yester years. In many families in the last 40 years, I have seen "Mootha Mattu Pon" bringing up everybody in her husband's family / machinar/ Nathanars/ inlaws and not involved with her parents at all?

I agree with other points of yours...

Thanks

Regards
Revathi

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Ravi,

But Sir, is it not common for the boys also to be in such predicament and ask the would-be wife to help in bringing up his family/siblings? Also it has happened as we can see in many joint families of yester years. In many families in the last 40 years, I have seen "Mootha Mattu Pon" bringing up everybody in her husband's family / machinar/ Nathanars/ inlaws and not involved with her parents at all?

Thanks

Regards
Revathi

Sri Revathi ji,

I agree fully with your points.....That is the fact off course

A girl was conditioned by a guy to bear responsibilities with him in bringing up everybody in his family as "Mootha Mattu Pon", avoiding that of her's. She was expected to be in "Kootu Kudumbam" and contribute her earnings 100% without reserving a share for herself, and may be with a small percentage for herself in some families that certainly would not suffice to extend her help to her siblings and parents.

In the above marriage contract, the girl was expected to surrender her own wish to her husband and in-laws for sure on the above grounds, but was not pressurized to increase her earning potential some way or other just to meet the goals that requires double or more than double of her earnings...Working girls were prefer ed by these guys of the struggling families to shoulder the sufferings. They were choosed considering various aspects/qualities of the girls and and were not fixed with Monetary goals beyond her capacity.

 

[C RAVI]

Apologies for butting in again... I was actually keenly looking forward to your answer to Ravi's question. Not at all what I had expected to be honest.

I think in todays times girls and perhaps some boys have their own preferences and criteria and are not willing for whatever reason to modify or compromise much and thus are termed picky or choosy. Modifying standards and just settling for what one can get is a tad defeatist not to mention so passe.

I would recommend the gem in question to increase its marketability (How? Good question. I dont have the answer though!) and add value to it rather than modify or compromise its standards, only because the quality of the takers will be very rewarding. Hope I'm making sense

Dear Amala,

Intha approach enakku romba pudichirukku....

But how much sensible it amounts to? Is doubtful to me too....May be some one would step in to highlight the sensibility in this approach..

For now, let us consider the following points to identify, why those gems in question lost their marketability and what are the limitations in enhancing the marketability of those gems in question.


1) The low level gems so called lower, are those who could not achieve higher education / professional education.

2) These lower level gems didn't have parents or relatives or philanthropist who could offer them financial aids to achieve higher/professional education.

3) These lower level gems are many who had to finish off soon with their basic education (as possible) and get into some work to shoulder the responsibilities of their parents in all domestic activities that may include siblings basic education.

4) These lower level gems are many who had to accumulate their earnings to add it up with that of his parent's, to marry off their sister(s) and or to tackle any unexpected awful circumstances that crops up in sister(s) married life.

5) These lower level gems are many who had to keep working and earning, without a chance to go for further education due to the above reasons and may include descent medical aid to his old and sick parents who don't have any other means of their own.

6) These lower level gems are many who could not ever enroll for higher education amidst their work schedules or had to discontinue to avoid educational expenses in order to support his parents financially.

7) These lower level gems with basic degree and just a descent job may have lost their scope of great advancements in career due to high competition (mostly based on academic education), age factor and may be due to some other reasons...Having gained experience, they may get reasonable increment in their earnings some or other way (by promotion or by side income). But still would not fall under considerable category in matrimonial filtration/expectations.

8) Owning their own business may be just a day dream for these unfortunate gems with their limited resources. Even if these gems could butt in their own business some how, the level/type/earning potential of business etc., may remain a question mark that can meet the matrimonial expectations.

9) With the basic/valid expectations of girls to marry "UP", that is solely based on stable higher earning potential, what can be the way out for these gems to increase their marketability?

10) When earning stable higher money is the only criteria, based on one's education or the capital investment chances/help to venture into business and be stable, what other can be possible solution to add Value to the marketability of such gems?


IMO, all the above are the basic points that can determine the survival scope of the guys as bachelors and married men. And the default willing of girls marrying "UP" would for sure take its toll to strive finding the right "UP". This are the very common points of livelihood and there is nothing to blame any person.

The only concern would be that, struggling girls aiming "UP" married life (in arrange marriages) should refrain from attempting trial and error approach with similarly struggling guys, in their matrimonial project. Otherwise it would serve nothing to the girl and would only offend the guy to the extreme. I wish at least this should not happen considering human feelings/psychology, IMHO.


** Regarding Sri Kunjuppu Ji's reply to my question **


Dear Amala, I would like to tell you one thing..May be you know too...


"We make a living by what we get. We make a life by what we give."


So, these gems should be prudent enough to know the essence of life, charm of living, big heart to accept against one's preferences and find an another gem who can accept willingly, perfectly knowing her self. Once they pair with happily, they make their wonderful life and people surrounding them would have no complaints.


This is what I believe is the answer from Sri Kunjuppu ji to my question...And I am fully convinced. This can be the only perfect solution for all those gems in question.

 

[Nara]

....
As regards your dictum not to believe anything I feel yours is a circular argument. If it is true that கண்ணால் காண்பதும் பொய், காதால் கேட்பதும் பொய், (whatever you see or hear is unreal or false), how does one go about தீரவிசாரிப்பது (detailed enquiry)?

Dear Shri sangom, the above is a Tamil adage warning people that first impressions can be deceiving. Do not take it literally.

I feel you are not at all in tune with what is happening today.

I think this is a very weak argument. Those of us who live in the west have not cut off our links to our society. We stay in close contact with family and friends. We travel to India on a regular basis. People from India visit us here. I truly feel we living in the west see a broader picture of our society, where it was, where it is now, and the trajectory of where it is headed. Perhaps people living in India are too close to the action to get a deeper understanding of causes of problems and possible remedies.

Ours is still a male dominated society. For a girl to not give up her due she has to be bold and assertive. Not all are so, and the ones who are, get called names like திமிரு.

I also don't believe the present younger generation is only interested in enjoying life and don't care for their parents. Yes, when they get married, they may want to enjoy. But to say they don't care for anything else including their parents is an untenable extrapolation.

Cheers!

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Ravi

Thanks , except I have my reservation reg this:

Sri Revathi ji,
In the above marriage contract, the girl was expected to surrender her own wish to her husband and in-laws for sure on the above grounds, but was not pressurized to increase her earning potential some way or other just to meet the goals that requires double or more than double of her earnings

How do we know sir? I know on a mamiyar commenting to the relatives when the DIL wanted to quit her job "Evilale enna proyojanam velaikku pogalena"

Just because there were no forums and no ways for the girls to express and share in those days, we can not assume otherwise, IMHO

Thanks for your nice inputs!

Regards
Revathi

 

[C RAVI]

Sri Revathi ji,

My reply in Blue..

Shri Ravi

Thanks , except I have my reservation reg this:


How do we know sir? I know on a mamiyar commenting to the relatives when the DIL wanted to quit her job "Evilale enna proyojanam velaikku pogalena"

Off course, I do agree such ruthless claims of MIL and or husband were there, to pester her to continue with her work, unmindful for her hardships..She was expected to go to job and do job at home till late night...But IMO, I don't believe she was expected to do something to double or triple her income and was just forced to stick to her job unmindful of her ordeals.

Just because there were no forums and no ways for the girls to express and share in those days, we can not assume otherwise, IMHO

We all have to agree with this valid point of yours...

May be many gruesome cases were there, expecting DIL/Wife to go out of way to earn money somehow...These are exceptional cases and such people can't be even considered civil enough in the society.

Thanks for your nice inputs!

Regards
Revathi

I loved exchanging my ideas with you...

Hope I have not disheartened any one with my inputs. I am just trying to pin point in all my posts, the social setup, in the past and in the present; human expectations/psychology; the cases of concern; the best way out for a solution etc..etc for both the genders.

 

[sangom]

Sri Revathi ji,

My reply in Blue..



I loved exchanging my ideas with you...

Hope I have not disheartened any one with my inputs. I am just trying to pin point in all my posts, the social setup, in the past and in the present; human expectations/psychology; the cases of concern; the best way out for a solution etc..etc for both the genders.

Shri Ravi,

Your inputs are really valuable. But it appears that each one of us here take particular portions from any post with which they don't agree and then write their counters. The point which you wanted to convey viz.,"I don't believe she was expected to do something to double or triple her income ", has not probably made any impact because you did not elaborate it. But I seem to grasp its import.

Anyway, I think I must apologize to Shri Ananthanarayanan for completely sidelining his original post. The heroine seems to have taken centre stage here.

 

[ganeshrev]

Sri Revathi ji,

My reply in Blue..



I loved exchanging my ideas with you...

Hope I have not disheartened any one with my inputs. I am just trying to pin point in all my posts, the social setup, in the past and in the present; human expectations/psychology; the cases of concern; the best way out for a solution etc..etc for both the genders.

Not at all Shri Ravi - We are here to exchange our experience and views !I really like your practical thinking.

Regards
revathi

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri sangom, the above is a Tamil adage warning people that first impressions can be deceiving. Do not take it literally.

I think this is a very weak argument. Those of us who live in the west have not cut off our links to our society. We stay in close contact with family and friends. We travel to India on a regular basis. People from India visit us here. I truly feel we living in the west see a broader picture of our society, where it was, where it is now, and the trajectory of where it is headed. Perhaps people living in India are too close to the action to get a deeper understanding of causes of problems and possible remedies.

Ours is still a male dominated society. For a girl to not give up her due she has to be bold and assertive. Not all are so, and the ones who are, get called names like திமிரு.

I also don't believe the present younger generation is only interested in enjoying life and don't care for their parents. Yes, when they get married, they may want to enjoy. But to say they don't care for anything else including their parents is an untenable extrapolation.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

the points which I wanted to bring to notice were two:
1. The girl putting a condition to the only son (child) of his parents that they should not live on long term basis with her and her husband, whereas she has a sister and still she wants to be assured that her parents may well spend their lives with her.

This is in support of my observation that youngsters nowadays have a tendency to be selfish.

2. The way in which she agreed to meet the boy and place her demands for large investments to start a school in the near future, very well knowing that the boy does not have the wherewithals for it. Instead I would have found it quite right if she had either spoken to him ar send an e-mail detailing her stipulations before personally meeting him.

You may have reasons to disagree on the above points also but I think for the sake of this thread I will stop with this.

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Ravi,

Anyway, I think I must apologize to Shri Ananthanarayanan for completely sidelining his original post. The heroine seems to have taken centre stage here.

Sri Sanjom ji,

I second your view and apologize to Sri Ananthanarayanan for completely ignoring the moral of the story and debating on a different case that was just presented as an example.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

In his postings Mr.Sangom had said that the terms of dowry etc are first decided before arranging for 'PEN
Parthal'. I have a different experience.My youngest sister was married in the year 1970 and my four daughters were married between 1987 to 1995.In all these cases the 'pen parthal' was first arranged and after the boy and his family have seen and approved the girl they gave their demands and after negotiations final terms were approved.
I think this procedure was only followed in TB community.
My friend had a different experience.The boy and his sisters and elderly people of the boy's side(His parents were in south)came and saw my friends daughter and immediately conveyed their approval.but the girl had some hesitation to give her consent as she thought that the boy is not as tall as herself eventhogh the girl and the boy were asked to stand closeby.The boy and the girl were more or less of same height.She wanted a week's time to give her consent.My friend had also seen another alliance from chennai. I helped him to arrange for 'pen parthal' inmy sister's place.The boy was taller than the girl.After approving the girl they gave their demands which was beyond the capacity of my friend.The girl asked her father to come to the verandah and informed her father not to go for this alliance and gave her consent to marry the first boy.My friend informed them that he will discuss with his wife who was in DELHI and then visit the Boys parent the next day for finalising the 'Nitcyathartham function'.He visited them and informed them that they may look for some other girl who will be able to meet there demands.
He took his daughter to the parents of the first boy and informed them that his daughter insisted on meeting the boy's parents and then only wanted to give her consent.The only question they asked the girl was whether she is accepting the boy willingly and not just to satisfy her parents.When the girl informd her willingness they readily agreed and just told my friend to give whatever he has in his mind to do for his daughter and not to take heavy
loan and put himself to financial difficulty.A nice gentleman.The marriage was performed.Because the girl had initial hesitation to give her consent the husband used to virtually give mental torture to the girl.For outside world he is the best behaved person. The girl got relief only after her two daughters have grown up and became majors
(above 18 yers) and they support their mother.
I am in full agreement with Mrs REVATHI GANESH that the Girls side i n TAMIL BRAHMIN community was always looked down in the past 50 years.There could be exceptions.