about brahmins

[malgova.mango]

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advaitam therinjavan - kennatru thavalaia?

theriyathavan - vellilala erukkana?

good tamasha

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Ellame thamash thaan...

 

[s007bala]

re

>>If a sanyasi cannot see mother in all feminine beings, its is against his sanyasa vows.
If a sanyasa thinks his sanyasam is in danger because of a woman, then he need not take sanyasam at all. He better be a grihasta. <<

Whether the sanyasi sees mother in all feminine beings or something enitrely different from our perception of mother,only one who is a sanyasi can explain,isn't it?Can you list the sanyasa vows?Can you give reference,if possible with an online link url?

What makes you think,a sanyasi's sanyasam is in danger becoz of a woman?

palindrome is your moniker in this website which wants to remain anonymous for the fear of someone knowing your real physical identity or for privacy reasons,as the case maybe.

When you as an idividual is unable to be open about your own identity,how will you have the common-sense or maturity to know about sanyasis?unless you yourself are a sanyasi?giving your gyaanam here online.

My guess is,you are much like all of us,in pursuit of spiritual truths,curious about shastras,actions of saints....etc but definitely not a sanyasi of any order or dis-order.ray2:So,how can you suggest one should be a grihastha only?on what basis are you defintive,in your statement,may i ask?

I am asking the above only for me to get educated myself,and i am in no confrontionistic mode,so with all humilty & meekness,if possible without mis-understanding me or my queries,try to answere me.Thanks.

sb

 

[malgova.mango]

sesh!

talking about tamasha - the term Tamas comes to my mind.

In Shrimad Bhagavat Geeta - Lord Krishna defines - Tamo Guna as the one which sees the TRUTH in inverted fashion. So far one afflicted by Tamo Gunam - A wrong becomes Right and a Right becomes Wrong.

Eppadi irukku?

ofcourse before someone harp at who's afflicted with what? I rest the matter ....

 

[palindrome]

Whether the sanyasi sees mother in all feminine beings or something enitrely different from our perception of mother,only one who is a sanyasi can explain,isn't it?Can you list the sanyasa vows?Can you give reference,if possible with an online link url?

What makes you think,a sanyasi's sanyasam is in danger becoz of a woman?

palindrome is your moniker in this website which wants to remain anonymous for the fear of someone knowing your real physical identity or for privacy reasons,as the case maybe.

When you as an idividual is unable to be open about your own identity,how will you have the common-sense or maturity to know about sanyasis?unless you yourself are a sanyasi?giving your gyaanam here online.

I do not think anyone can find sanyasa vows and details of their various ceremonies documented anywhere, either books or online. Because they are under a vow to maintain secrecy. But you can meet sanyasis and get a fair picture. I have met sanyasis of the swami order. It is true that they regard all women as divine mother. Just go to the Ramakrishna Mission and ask any swami there for a basic idea.

Adi Shankara was seeing Sarada Devi in every woman. Sarasavani or ubhaya bharathi was travelling with him and his group doing the cooking for them. Nobody's sanyasam comes under danger because of a woman - married, widow, young or old. If MM seems to suggest that a sanyasi's sanyasam comes under danger because of women, then you should ask him. How to justify that sumangali or kumari is permissable but widow is not.

 

[malgova.mango]

i think vows and vratams are like nail and flesh (nagamum sathaiyum pola) , eye and eye lash, pati - pattini , word and meaning....

one can't exist without other..

The more i think about it, the more I'm convinced...

See , for a Brahmachari Vratam and his VOWS or ambition is to earn Vidhya Balam, for a Grihasta there are Vratams like Yagyas to observe. So too for a Sanyasi.

So in any Swamiji's Aashrama - they don't allow Swamis and Swaminis to live under the same roof, though they both have celibacy vows - isn't it?

So I'm convinced there is a strong bond between Vows and Vratams aka aacharams.

etho yen chirrarivukku ettinathu

 

[malgova.mango]

also if one aspires to get a Olympic Gold Medal in say swimming then they have to undertake a discipline of physical , pshycological, technical aacharams or vratams to realise the aspirations.

in secular world too aacharam is there.

any good ambition demands discipline (aacharam) one can't do away with that - What Silver Fox Ji - what do you say?

 

[palindrome]

Paramacharya is considered to have already realised those aspirations. He could have set an example. It is unfortunate he did not. And I wonder why. I am now seeing him as a follower not a leader.

And ask yourself
a) who were the people following the shastras before the current smartas came into being.

b) if some people indulged in misinterpretations or interpolations, are those misinterpretations/ interpolation meant to be thrown out now or followed?

 

[malgova.mango]

paramacharya is setting example to his followers of sanyasi order.

a)shastram exist from time immemorial, the followers were too.

b) that depends on individual aspirations.

 

[malgova.mango]

you are correctly seeing now, HE HIMSELF many time openly declared that he is a FOLLOWER of the EVER PRESENT ORDER.

If one disregards aacharams and sought blessings from HIM. HH point blankly said that's a wasteful exercise.

 

[palindrome]

paramacharya is setting example to his followers of sanyasi order.

a)shastram exist from time immemorial, the followers were too.

b) that depends on individual aspirations.

Who are the followers of the sanyasi order. What are the various sanyasi orders?

Current smartha community did not exist before 500ad. Smarta religion is derived from the ekadandi sampradaya.

 

[malgova.mango]

palindrome ji!

we have manu smiriti, yagyavalkya smiriti etc.... which dates back to Puranic period.

Yangyavalkya's Guru is the teacher for Janakar - Father of Sita Devi, which we came to know that from the Famous Itihasa Ramayana..

I'm from this angle , so the time aspect is always from immemorial to me. so your before 500 AD logic... - rings hollow to me.

On various sanyasi order, upanishads details what should be done by a sanyasins.

Just from my guts...

Here Sanyasams are 2 fold in Advaitham -

One for the aspirant with 4 qualities of Sadhana Chatustaya Sampathi - he has not attained Moksha , but he is fully qualified for it. With proper guidance HE is on the way to reach his goal. Mutts primary objectives are to filter this kind of aspirants called MUMUKSHUS and to impart the teaching. (Till attaining enlightment is one type - here they are more like young plants)

Once they attained the enlightenment then they can choose to serve the mutt as residing teacher or they can go away as avadoothi like Brahmendra Swamigal (which is the second type)(here they are like matured tree)

One important character of Mutts established by Aadi Shankara is Mukthi or Kaivalya padam is reachable in this existence itself by knowledge.It is ablut JEEVAN MUKTHI. So Vedic Teaching is the core subject taught.

In order to set example for Mumukshus with proper vedic education Shankara Mutts Head set an example by living as per the injunctions of their traditions.

About EKA DANDI and Tri DANDI - my knowledge is zero.

Regards

 

[palindrome]

palindrome ji!

we have manu smiriti, yagyavalkya smiriti etc.... which dates back to Puranic period.

Yangyavalkya's Guru is the teacher for Janakar - Father of Sita Devi, which we came to know that from the Famous Itihasa Ramayana..

I'm from this angle , so the time aspect is always from immemorial to me. so your before 500 AD logic... - rings hollow to me.

Yes the smrithis, upanishads were composed before the puranic age. The current smarthas were not around that time. Only the various (other) monastic traditions were around at that time.

Its not 500 ad actually, it should be 800ad. Please read the Shringeri mutt's dating below: http://www.sringerisharadapeetham.org/

[[The Peetham is the first and foremost of the four Peethams established by the renowned 8th century philosopher saint Sri Adi Shankara, the principal exponent of Advaita (non-dualism).]]

Please let me know of any information you have to show that the current smarthas existed before 500ad. I would be glad for it.

 

[malgova.mango]

See in Kamba Ramayanam!

there are various couplets , about brahmins of the yore and how they lived at that time etc..

Mahabharata also do, so too various major puranas talk about Smritis and benefits reaped following the smritis. (ie in turn about smartas)

These are the sources I refer to ..

 

[malgova.mango]

eka dandi - yeah i can infer.

tri-danti - meaning the one holding TRIDENTS - no idea

 

[palindrome]

See in Kamba Ramayanam!

there are various couplets , about brahmins of the yore and how they lived at that time etc..

Mahabharata also do, so too various major puranas talk about Smritis and benefits reaped following the smritis. (ie in turn about smartas)

These are the sources I refer to ..

Sri Adi Shankara sought to organize the ekadandi sampradaya into 4 brahmanical mutts (though the ekadandis veered off into founding their own ashrams and guru-shishya lineages).

The ekadandi sampradaya has always been taking in anyone who sought to be a brahmachari and sanyasi. The people at that time who became affiliated with the 4 mutts were from a cross-section of people.

The current smarthas are supposed to have mostly descended from ancestors who were initiated into brahmacharyam by these 4 mutts.

Current smarthas have no connection with those people who were reading the shrutis and smrithis during Ramayana and Mahabharata.

If you can provide any literature to show that current smartha community existed before the establishment of the 4 mutts, that would greatly help.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

The current smarthas descended from ancestors who were initiated into brahmacharyam by these 4 mutts.

Current smarthas have no connection with those people who were reading the shrutis and smrithis during Ramayana and Mahabharata.

If you can provide any literature to show that current smarthas have existed before the establishment of the 4 mutts, that would greatly help.

As the name implies, smarthas are those sect of brahmins who followed the smrithis... the fact that most smarthas today are followers of Adi Sankaracharya does not prove that there were no smarthas before his period!

 

[malgova.mango]

See one set of traditional scholars believe the Kali-Yuga begins approximately 5000 years before. Dating of various events in Mhabharata is posted by SB in another thread.

Elders are of opinion that Sage Vyasa an incarnation of Lord Narayana divided the Vedas and complied it into 4 vedas, before that Vedas are called KEERAVANI , there is no distinction like Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharvana Vedas.

These events happened app 5000 years before and from that time on Smartas follow as per their Sva Shaka. You see the Nitya Karmas like Sandhyavandhanam got refined after this division. Even during Kurukshetra War the soldiers preformed Sandhyavandanam... instead of offering water due to non-availability, they offered sand we read.


Ofcourse we also learn that Sri Aadi Sankara was born in a brahmin family - meaning Smartas exist prior to the era of Sri Aadi Sankara . In fact it is Kumara Sheela who defeated many Buddhists much before the arrival of Sri Aadi Sankara to establish the Karma kanda of Jaimini. A book called "The Vedas" By Paramacharaya throws light on our History please read that.

Sorry your "current smartas" - I can't quite understand that.

Regards

 

[palindrome]

As the name implies, smarthas are those sect of brahmins who followed the smrithis... the fact that most smarthas today are followers of Adi Sankaracharya does not prove that there were no smarthas before his period!

I said the current smarthas did not exist before this period. There were brahmins who existed before this period. Adi Shankara defeated and absorbed some of them into the smartha fraternity. Not all. Shrauta and Mimasaka traditions have continued to exist independent of the smarthas. The current smarthas are a mix of those brahmins who got integrated into the smartha religion as well as those ekadandis who affiliated themselves with the 4 mathas established by Adi Shankara. Until this point, movement into and out of brahminhood was not static.

I was responding to MM's question about smarthas existing from Ramayana and Mahabharata times. The current smarthas did not exist then.

 

[malgova.mango]

In Ramayana, Surpanaka plans to abduct Seetha during the early morning time thinking , Rama and Lakshmana will be doing their Sandhyavandanam during that time.

So Sandhayvandanam is performed from time immemorial - so too smartas heritage is time immemorial

 

[pbkhema]

From byegone times they have been brahmins and following the scripture(Smriti) of the Sakha (Veda) they be;onged to. Later many smritis came into being and without going into details Mitakshara (which is followed in most of India) and Dayabhaga which is confined to esat India.The source for Mitakshara is Apastamba Sutra.But in the South particularly in Tamil Nadu though for all practical purposes the Mitakshara is followed for Amavasya Tarpanam etc some follow Baudanya Sutra (Smriti).Sama Vedins follow a diferent Smriti.Any Brahmin who knows his ABHIVADHEYA correctly will know which Sutra he follows.But that is all Historic.After the Hindu Sucession Act and Marriage Act came in 1956 everything is academic except when one performs rituals .
PBK

 

[malgova.mango]

sharuta , mimasaka , smarta are related terms

Shrauta - refers to Vedas
Mimasam - refers to the science of Knowledge which yield the meaning of Vedas
Smriti - Insight gained from Shrutis for practical application. please visit kamakoti.org to further your studies.

Sandhyavandanam is SHRAUTA,SMRITI combined body of knowledge

 

[malgova.mango]

regarding Smritis - detailed explanations are given in kamakoti.org / The Vedas etc..

HSA and marraige act rudely dismissed the finer points of our religion, we are reaping the results ...that's why there's a lot of talk about pseudo intellectuals and the suffering they bought to India..

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

I said the current smarthas did not exist before this period. There were brahmins who existed before this period. Adi Shankara defeated and absorbed some of them into the smartha fraternity. Not all. Shrauta and Mimasaka traditions have continued to exist independent of the smarthas. The current smarthas are a mix of those brahmins who got integrated into the smartha religion as well as those ekadandis who affiliated themselves with the 4 mathas established by Adi Shankara. Until this point, movement into and out of brahminhood was not static.

I was responding to MM's question about smarthas existing from Ramayana and Mahabharata times. The current smarthas did not exist then.

Since this was an open discussion, I interjected... My views differ from the statement that smarthas could not have existed before Adi Sankaracharya (AS) and hence my post...

I have doubts about the numerical accuracy of the projections of the early ages... As per astrology (one can see the link in sb's post also), the period of the yugas is very vast running into thousands and thousands of years... hence, we cannot comment with accuracy about the practices of those days as well!

But were there no brahmins who followed the smrithis before Adi Sankaracharya (AS)???

The current smarthas might be a mix of brahmins from mimansakas or shrauthis... but again, that does not mean that all smarthas today are only people who have come into the smartha fold because of AS...

So the inference that current smarthas were not there before AS does not hold water; only that some non-smarthas have been included into the smartha fold of Adhvaitha after AS....

 

[malgova.mango]

the elders are of opinion before Sage Vyasa , there is no Rig, Yajur .... Vedas , it is called KEERAVANI.... source (The Vedas ...by Mahaswami)