A layman reads Rig Veda

[vikrama]

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It is more probable that the Rik was consciously altered slightly to suit the occasion in the
vājapeya sacrifice, since all the rik mantras were (and still are) believed to be superhuman revelations to the
ṛṣis who are considered as mantradraṣṭās or seers of the mantras.

I have a gut feeling that there will be many more such deliberate adaptations in both Yajurveda and even the atharva.

Dear Sri Sangom,
Yes. I agree.

Regarding the number of TS mantra, it is my mistake. A dot is missing. It is not 1.7.74 but it is 1.7.7.4 as per TS edited by RL Kashyap.
1.7.7.1 begins with देव सवितः
.2 begins with इन्द्रस्य व्रजोसि
.3 begins with वाजस्य नु प्रसवे
.4 begins with अप्स्वन्तर

Thank you for nice explanation.

 

[vikrama]

7 What is Veda all about?

What is the central theme of RV? Having failed to comprehend it by learning the meaning of each mantra, (nearly a fourth of the mantras are still unresolved riddles to me) I looked for the idea repeatedly enunciated. What word occurs frequently? It was found that the words, Deva, Yagna and Rtam are used quite often in RV. Let us take them one by one.

‘Deva’ in all its forms (various cases, numbers, and other derived words from it) and the allied words like ‘dyaus’ in all its forms occurs more than 3000 times. This is the largest used word (group) in RV. So we can take it to be the central idea of RV.

Who are the devas? Let us, for the moment, set aside what we have learnt about devas from the Puranas which describe their eyes as unblinking and feet not touching the ground. Let us see what RV tells about them.

Many devas like Indra, Agni, Maruts, Varuna, Mitra, Aryaman, Pusan, Bhaga, Asvins, Savita have been mentioned in RV. The word ‘deva’ is derived from ‘div’ (to shine). Devas have luminous bodies. Even the Maruts and Vayu (wind gods) are described as having resplendent bodies.

Savita occupies an important place among the devas. When the name Savita occurs in a mantra, in most cases the epithet ‘deva’ is also mentioned. Savita is the only name to have the epithet mentioned for the maximum percentage. 102 ‘deva’ epithets accompanying 175 Savita names, (60%). The name of Indra occurs 2590 times but it is accompanied by the epithet only 318 times, (12%). Agni occurs 1659 times of which only 489 have ‘deva’ accompanying,(30%). Ushas is honoured with the epithet 'devi' 93 times out of 408 names. (23%)

(Numbers are approximate. There is a possibility of error, plus or minus, due to the typos in my padapatha text and the peculiarities of computer search. )

See the Gayatri mantra and two mantras following it.
तत् सवितु: वरेण्यम् भर्ग: देवस्य धीमहि धिय: य: न: प्र-चोदयात् RV_3,62.10
देवस्य सवितु: वयम् वाज-यन्त: पुरम्-ध्या भगस्य रातिम् ईमहे RV_3,62.11
देवम् नर: सवितारम् विप्रा: यज्ञै: सुवृक्ति-भि: नमस्यन्ति धिया इषिता: RV_3,62.12

The first mantra of Yajur Veda also has the name of Savita along with his epithet.
देवः वः सविता प्रार्पयतु श्रेष्ठतमाय कर्मणे।

This shows that the epithet was not used loosely but intentionally to denote the shining nature of the deity. Perhaps Savita (the sun) caught their attention first as having resplendence even before the discovery of fire.

(to be continued)

 

[renuka]

This shows that the epithet was not used loosely but intentionally to denote the shining nature of the deity. Perhaps Savita (the sun) caught their attention first as having resplendence even before the discovery of fire.

(to be continued)

Dear Sir,

Most probably.. BTW Savita also means Progenitor.

The whole cycle of existence of life on earth is dependent on the Sun who is Pratyksham Progenitor for all of us.

 

[vikrama]

8 Devas and Devis
The term ‘devaH’ देवाः (in plural) includes both male and female deities. There is a special term for female deities- Devi (देवी). Ushas, Aditi, earth, river, waters are some of the devis. While heaven (द्यौस्) is sometime portrayed as father, the combined heaven and earth rodasi रोदसी are described as females. There are references to ‘devapatni’ देवपत्नी (wives of gods) and nothing of significance is told about them.

Among devas there are no relationships as father, mother, brother or sister. Though Maruts are said to be the sons of Rudra, Ushas is said to be daughter of Surya, Agni is said to be the son of waters- these should not be taken literally. Let us see why.

Agni is said to be the son of plants. He is also said to be son/ grandson of waters. Again Agni is said to the son of strength and son of two mothers- heaven and earth or it may the two Arani sticks which rubbed against each other produce fire. Ushas is said to be the daughter of Surya. In some places, she is also said to be the wife of Surya. Maruts are not only the sons of Rudra रुद्रसूनवः, they are themselves Rudra रुद्राः.

These are all metaphorical ways of expression and should not be construed literally.

Where do the devas reside?
Most devas dwell in heaven. So they are called divakshas दिवक्षस्, dyuksas द्युक्षस्. Rivers reside on earth. Agni lives in three spheres – heaven, firmament अन्तरिक्ष and earth in the form of sun, lightning and fire respectively. All the devas, wherever residing, come to earth to interact with men.

What do the devas eat?

The food offered to devas in yagnas is called havis. But the devas do not receive them from men directly. Agni serves as their messenger. The havis is offered in Agni and he takes them to the devas wherever they reside. After consuming the havis, they come to the yagna sadana (place of sacrifice) to partake of the Soma. There are elaborate descriptions of the pressing of Soma. The plant is brought in carts from the mountains. It is pressed between two stones. It is filtered by a filter made of wool. The juice is collected in a vessel, mixed with water, cow’s milk and curd and offered to the devas. If I remember right, the performer of the sacrifice also consumes it. All the devas, especially Indra, are fond of Soma. They get intoxicated and shower boons on their devotees. Indra performs mighty tasks in the intoxication of Soma.

Although the devas are delighted by the offer of havis and soma, these are not mentioned as essential for their sustenance. They accept these only as tokens of our devotion.

It is pertinent to note that while havis is taken by Agni to the Devas, for drinking Soma they have to come down to the earth.

Hope Sri Sangom will explain its significance.

 

[sangom]

8 Devas and Devis

. . .

What do the devas eat?

The food offered to devas in yagnas is called havis. But the devas do not receive them from men directly. Agni serves as their messenger. The havis is offered in Agni and he takes them to the devas wherever they reside. After consuming the havis, they come to the yagna sadana (place of sacrifice) to partake of the Soma. There are elaborate descriptions of the pressing of Soma. The plant is brought in carts from the mountains. It is pressed between two stones. It is filtered by a filter made of wool. The juice is collected in a vessel, mixed with water, cow’s milk and curd and offered to the devas. If I remember right, the performer of the sacrifice also consumes it. All the devas, especially Indra, are fond of Soma. They get intoxicated and shower boons on their devotees. Indra performs mighty tasks in the intoxication of Soma.

Although the devas are delighted by the offer of havis and soma, these are not mentioned as essential for their sustenance. They accept these only as tokens of our devotion.

It is pertinent to note that while havis is taken by Agni to the Devas, for drinking Soma they have to come down to the earth.

Hope Sri Sangom will explain its significance.

Shri Vikrama,

There is no explanation for this difference in any of the books I have read so far.

But it looks to me as though the soma juice was a very valued (not in terms of money but in its spiritual efficacy and the devas' special liking for it) item and the vedic rishis possibly thought that even the devas would descend in order to drink soma.

It appears from some hymns of the RV that the vedic rishis had a separate place, in their dwellings perhaps, for the devas to come and be seated for imbibing this soma juice and tender darbha/kusa grass was spread over for making comfortable seating arrangement for the devas who so come.

I am not sure whether any part of the extracted soma juice was poured on to those seats, but in todays yagas it looks as if the so-called soma creeper's juice is poured into the sacrificial fire of the yaga. Whether this is a later modification, I don't know.

The vedic rishis definitely imbibed soma.

 

[vikrama]

Thank you Sri Sangom.
I am reminded of a verse by Manickvacakar wherein he says that both Brahma and Vishnu desire to be born on earth so that they may enjoy the bliss of Siva.
It means that earth is the place for pleasure, in the eyes of Devas, while we consider the heaven to be a place of bliss. As the proverb goes, the other side of the river always looks greener.

புவனியிற் போய்ப்பிற வாமையில் நாள்நாம் போக்குகின் றோம்அவ மேஇந்தப் பூமி சிவனுய்யக் கொள்கின்ற வாறென்று நோக்கித் திருப்பெருந் துறையுறை வாய்திரு மாலாம் அவன்விருப் பெய்தவும் மலரவன் ஆசைப் படவும்நின் அலர்ந்தமெய்க் கருணையும் நீயும் அவனியிற் புகுந்தெமை ஆட்கொள்ள வல்லாய் ஆரமு தேபள்ளி எழுந்தரு ளாயே.

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[vikrama]

9 Vasu Rudra Aditya
There are many RV mantras mentioning Vasus Rudras and Adityas together implying that these are separate sub-groups within the group of devas. But we see only the constituents of one sub-group- Aditya- enumerated in RV.
While the Puranas speak of 12 Adityas, sons of Kasyapa and Aditi, Rig Veda has only five - Mitra, Varuna, Aryaman, Bhaga and Amsa अंशः. They are said to be the sons of Aditi (a female deity) meaning unlimited. There is no mention of Kasyapa. (Taittiriya adds three to the list- Dhata, Indra and Vivasvan. Puranas add four more - Savita, Visnu, Pusan and Tvasta to make it twelve.) Sayana sometimes says that Aditi denotes the earth. In other contexts he relies on Puranic legend.
In Puranas there are lists of eight vasus forming part of the 33 devas. RV does not have any. Indra and Agni have been addressed as Vasu and Vasupati. Vasu means wealth. It also means dwelling. Vasu is one among the list of boons prayed for by the devotees from all gods. Sayana interprets the epithet Vasu as ‘giver of dwellings’. It seems to mean the lord of wealth or the giver of wealth.
In Puranas we hear of eleven Rudras. RV does not have such a list. Rudra is one among the second ranking deities in RV. In TS he assumes a bigger role. TS speaks of thousands of Rudras inhabiting the entire universe. Later on he metamorphoses into Siva, and becomes the Almighty. But in RV, he is one among the gods, not so important as Indra, Agni, Varuna etc. Maruts are said to be his sons. Sometimes the Maruts are themselves called Rudra. Agni is sometimes called Rudra, due to his colour or fierceness.
As per the existing notion, dead ancestors become Vasus and they gradually graduate into Rudras and Adityas, RV contains no trace of such things.

 

[vikrama]

10 Devas and gold
Each deva has something or other to do with gold. While Maruts are described as Rukmavakshas रुक्मवक्षस् wearing golden ornaments and they travel in golden rathas. Savita has a hand of gold हिरण्यपाणिः. He travels by a ratha of gold. Remember your sandhyavandanam? हिरण्ययेन सविता रथेन आ देवो याति. Pusan has a weapon of gold. So too Indra. His vajra is made of gold. Varuna is protected by an armour of gold हिरण्यद्रापिः. Indra is Hiranyaya (golden) and he gives a gift of golden ratha to his devotees. Rudra is as bright as gold. Agni has golden hair हिरण्यकेशी and golden horns हिरण्यशृङ्गः. Mitra and Varuna are of golden forms. So are heaven and earth. Lightning is likened to a golden chariot.
These are just poetical way of expressing the idea that all devas, true to the appellation, are shining.

 

[vikrama]

11 Rakshasa
Opposed to the devas are the Rakshasas. They are not a homogeneous group living in a particular place. What they eat and where they live are not mentioned in RV. Perhaps they live everywhere on earth, even among us. They could be among our relatives जामी or non-relatives अजामी, our own people स्वः or strangers अरणः. They could be either Arya or Dasa. They are said to be dark coloured कृष्णवर्णाः. They represent darkness as opposed to the resplendence of the Devas. They are also called Dasyus (दस्यु) = enemies. The one characteristic that marks them out is that they do not have faith in gods or do not worship gods अदेवाः. They do not recite prayers अब्रह्म. They harass people performing worships. Some dasyus are called Sisnadeva (those who are given to indulgence in sex). They are mighty and the Rishis seek the help of devas to destroy them.

 

[zebra16]

9 Vasu Rudra Aditya

In Puranas there are lists of eight vasus forming part of the 33 devas. RV does not have any. .

It would be very helpful if you could quote the RV mantra numbers. If there are numerous mantras if you can give the mantra number of a few prominent ones it would help in having a better idea.

Agni is equated with vasu and the following are the eight names of Agni given in Taittiriya. 1. Agni. 2. jAtavedA 3. sahojA 4, Ajiraprabhu 5, vaiSvAnarA 6. naryApas 7. pankthirAdha and 8. Visarpi

As many RV mantras are repeated in yajurveda we can get an idea of the legend associated with each form of deva or vasu or rudra or aditya

 

[zebra16]

9 Vasu Rudra Aditya

In Puranas we hear of eleven Rudras. RV does not have such a list. Rudra is one among the second ranking deities in RV. In TS he assumes a bigger role.

If we consider yajur veda as an extension or continuation of RV, the following are the 11 names of ekAadaSa rudrAs:

1. praBhrAjmAnA 2. vyavadhAta 3. vAsuki-vaidhyutA 4. rajaTA 5. parushA 6. Syama 7. kapilA 8. atilohitA 9. oordhvA 10. avapatantA and 11. vaidhyutA

The ekAdaSa rudrAs are mentioned both in taittiriya and shatapAta brAhmaNAs.

 

[renuka]

Maruts are said to be his sons. Sometimes the Maruts are themselves called Rudra.

Maruts are supposed to be the sons of Sage Kashyapa and his wife Diti.

Diti wanted a son who could slay Indra and Kashyapa asked Diti to observe the Pumsavana vow for a year but if there was a breach the son would prove to be friendly to Indra.

So she observed the vow but one day there was a breach in the vow and Indra entered her womb using his yogic powers and cut the fetus into 7 pieces and addressed the pieces as Ma Ruda(Ma=Don't Ruda= Cry) Ma Ruda meaning "Don't cry"

Then he cut the 7 pieces again into another 7 pieces each..total 49 pieces.

These 49 became to be known as Maruts since they were initially addressed as Ma Ruda(Don't Cry)

 

[vikrama]

It would be very helpful if you could quote the RV mantra numbers. If there are numerous mantras if you can give the mantra number of a few prominent ones it would help in having a better idea.

OK. hereafter I will give the mantra numbers also.

Agni is equated with vasu and the following are the eight names of Agni given in Taittiriya. 1. Agni. 2. jAtavedA 3. sahojA 4, Ajiraprabhu 5, vaiSvAnarA 6. naryApas 7. pankthirAdha and 8. Visarpi

As many RV mantras are repeated in yajurveda we can get an idea of the legend associated with each form of deva or vasu or rudra or aditya

As far as RV is concerned, vasu is an epithet meaning wealth - giver, or giver of dwellings according to Sayana, who also sometimes takes it to mean wealth. Indra and Agni are honoured with this epithet. I do not think other devas have this distinction in RV, though they are prayed for bestowing vasu on the devotee.

Wikipedia gives two lists of vasus. May be there are more.
Vasu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[vikrama]

Maruts are supposed to be the sons of Sage Kashyapa and his wife Diti.

Later day scriptures gave a different twist to RV mantras according to their own whims and fancies. Hence the multiplicity of explanations. In the process, I feel, they have obliterated the original purport of RV.

 

[vikrama]

12 Asura
We have heard of Bakasura killed by Bheema, Sambarasura killed by Indra with the help of Dasaratha, Narakasura killed by Krishna and so on. Have you heard of Indrasura, Varunasura, Agniasura etc. Yes, RV calls these devas as Asuras. (1.174.1 Indra, 1.24.14 Varuna, 1.151.4 Agni.)
For those of us who have been brought up in the belief that Asuras are demons and they deserve to be destroyed by God and other Devas, it will be news.

The truth is, in RV, ‘asura’ means mighty and nothing more. Indra and other devas are called ‘asura’ because of their might. The Almighty who created the sun is also called ‘asura’ 10.177.1. There was no tribe of Asuras.

Asura and its derived words occur 126 times in RV. In most places, Sayana interprets it as mighty. But in other places, he interprets it variously as expeller of wicked beings 1.131.1, destroyer of enemies 1.64.2, emitter of showers 5.63.7, asura-slaying 9.91.2. They are but extensions of the basic meaning. In certain places he brings in a different etymology and interprets as life-giver 1.35.10, having life and feelings 8.90.6 and invigorator 3.3.4. In one context he interprets it ‘fear of evil spirits’ 1.134.5. In all these places, the basic meaning fits in very aptly and there is no need to labour on bringing a new meaning.

It is used as an epithet for demoniac men like Vrkadvaras, Varcin, Pipru in the sense that they are mighty. Indra and Agni are called Asuragna (killer of asura) असुरघ्न because they did away with mighty adversaries. We do not find the idea that all the devas are opposed to Asuras, which is a Puranic concept.

In Sanskrit, usually, an antonym is formed by prefixing अ/अन् before the noun or adjective. But in the case of ‘asura’, it is the other way round. The word ‘asura’ came first and later on, after the RV period, the word ‘sura’ meaning devas was coined. RV does not use the word ‘sura’ at all.

 

[vikrama]

13 Yes, we can

All devas are immortal, that is, they live for ever. We define the Almighty that He has neither birth nor death. But the devas had their births. जातस्य हि ध्रुवो मृत्युः (Everyone born must die) does not apply in their cases. Not once, the devas are said to have been born twice. 6.50.2

Devas are friendly to humans. They protect them when called for help. They shower their devotees with cows, horses, progeny, long life, gold, rayi (wealth – more of this in a later post.), health, attendants etc. when delighted with Soma, who is himself a deva. They are strengthened by prayers. Thus humans and the devas depend on each other.

Devas, normally do not speak. They are action heroes. Of course there are exceptions. There is a dialogue between Visvamitra and the Rivers. There is another between Vamadeva, Indra and Aditi. In a suktam, Indra says, ‘I am the lord of all I survey’. But these are all the words of the composers of the mantras put in the mouth of the devas, who are seldom described as speaking to each other or to men.

All devas are endowed with great strength, perfect bodies, wealth (variously mentioned as rayi, radhas, vasu etc.) and wisdom. There is no foolish, weak, sickly, blind, deaf, dumb or lame deva. They are a source of strength to their devotees.

They are friendly with each other. Varuna, Mitra and Aryaman are always jointly spoken of. (Sayana remarks even if only one of them is mentioned, it means all the three.) Indra is helped by Maruts in his battles against Rakshasas. Sometimes two devas are jointly invoked, such as AgnaVishnu, AgniSoma, AgniMaruts, IndraAgni, IndraBrhaspati, IndraMaruts, IndraPusan. Sometimes the dividing line between them fades out and one is identified with the other. At times, each deva is spoken of as the Almighty.

All their ire is directed towards the Rakshasas whom they slay for protecting the devotees. All devas have weapons and chariots. They travel on earth, firmament and heaven. Oceans and mountains do not prevent their movement.

Thus the devas are embodiment of health, immortality, wealth, strength and wisdom. No suffering of any kind. No problems. Their occasional fights with the rakshasas on behalf of the devotees always results in victory. How we long for such a state! But is it possible to become a deva? ‘Yes, we can’ tells the Veda.

 

[mskmoorthy]

Dear Sir:
Pranams.

You have given a description of Rakshaas and Asuras in
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/vedic-hyms/12632-layman-reads-rig-veda-4.html#post197043
and
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/vedic-hyms/12632-layman-reads-rig-veda-4.html#post197208

respectively . Since we do not have an antonym for Asura in RV, how are RAkshAs and Asuras distinguished in RV?

Before I ask this question to you (and did not want to waste your and others times), I searched in the internet and I found this link
What's the difference between Asura, Daitya, Rakshasa and Pishach according to Hindu mythology? - Yahoo! Answers India

(AFAIS a RV reference is made in 6th answer in other answers (besides the best answer) - I still could not understand about rAkshasA )

Thanks

Moorthy

 

[vikrama]

Dear Sri Moorthy,
The yahoo answer where RV is quoted is right.

Originally, the word Asura in the earliest hymns of the Rig Veda (the holy book of the Indo-Aryans) meant any supernatural spirit—good or bad. Hence even some of the devas (demigods), especially Varuna, have the epithet of Asura.

RV applies the title Asura both to devas and the rakshasas, to indicate their might. There is no group called Asura, whereas Rakshasas form a distinct group by virtue of their non-believing in god and worship. Though Rakshasas are not a tribe as we understand the term today and are to be found even among one's relatives, this one thing - atheism- unites them. Only after the RV period, the word asura began to acquire a bad connotation.

 

[vikrama]

14 conferred devas
Here is my hypothesis. In fact, this is not entirely my own. I am partly indebted to Sri Aurobindo. But I have modified his and improved on it. I worked independently and came to accept his conclusion, shown hereunder, partly.

“…….the central idea of the Vedic Rishis was the transition of the human soul from a state of death to a state of immortality (by the exchange of the Falsehood for the Truth, of divided and limited being for integrality and infinity.) From ‘The secret of the Vedas’. The bracketed part, I am yet to go into.

Here are the premises which are my own.

Just as there are regular IAS officers and conferred IAS officers, there seems to be two varieties of devas. Some are born devas like Savita (with his other forms like Mitra, Bhaga, Surya), Ushas and Agni who fit into the etymological meaning of the word ‘deva’. They are resplendent.

Others like Indra, Maruts, Asvins, Varuna, Rbhus were conferred with devatvam.
In immortality, power or benevolence, there is no difference between the two. The difference comes from their origin. While the former group has resplendence of its own, the latter attained to it by their own efforts.

If their devatvam is acquired one, what were they before? They were humans.

Proof?
1 These devas are honoured with the title, ‘nara’ नरः meaning ‘man’. and nrtama नृतम meaning the best of men.(Agni is also called ‘nara’. It requires a long explanation and will be dealt with in the post under the head ‘Agni’.) Sayana interprets the term ‘nara’ as leader, when it is used in the context of devas. But he takes it in its usual meaning of ‘man’ in other contexts. He does not say, why.
2 RV 1.38.4 says, “If, O ye Maruts, ye the Sons whom Prsni bore, were mortal, and Immortal he who sings your praise.” (Maruts had been mortal before becoming devas. So it is possible for their worshippers also to attain immortality.)
3 Trasadasyu is a Vedic Rishi. He speaks of himself as ‘ardhadeva’ अर्धदेवः – half god. 4.42.8. It shows that he was on the way to become a deva.
4 We have already seen that devas are called dvijanma (twice born) in 6.50.2. First as human, then as a deva.

How can a man become a deva? RV shows us the way through the story of Rbhus.

 

[vikrama]

15 The story of Rbhus
The three brothers Rbhu, Vibhu and Vaja were the sons of Sudhanvan. They performed many mighty tasks, considered impossible for others. They included making four chalices out of one, making two horses for Indra which are yoked by word वचोयुजा, a horseless chariot with three wheels (auto?) for Asvins, bringing into life of a cow from its skin, making their parents young again etc. For this, they were awarded immortality by Savita. They became devas and hence entitled to share in the offerings in the sacrifices.

(The rationalist in me would interpret the story as follows. They were engineers, technocrats and doctors all rolled into one, of their times. They invented the method of making thin earthen cups by manipulating the combination of earth, water and heating in various proportions. This is borne out by their utterances in 1.161.9

Most excellent are waters, thus said one of you; most excellent is Agni, thus another said.
Another praised to many a one the lightning cloud/earth. Then did ye shape the cups, speaking the words of truth.

and 4.33.5.
Two beakers let us make,- thus said the eldest. Let us make three,- this was the younger's sentence.
Four beakers let us make,- thus spoke the youngest. Tvastar approved this rede (explanation, plan) of yours, O Rbhus.


They tried various temperatures of baking, various kinds of earth and various quantities and qualities of water. Out of the clay till then used for making one cup, they made two, then three and finally four. In the same way they could have tamed Indra’s horses so that they would be amenable to oral commands and fabricated a chariot of better design. As doctors, they rejuvenated their parents and treated a cow which was very emaciated that it seemed to have only skin and no flesh.)

As for a year the Rbhus kept the Milch-cow, throughout a year fashioned and formed her body,
And through a year's space still sustained her brightness, through these their labours they were made immortal. 4.33.4


The Rbhus did not perform any yagna. They worked hard and performed miracle-looking tasks. They worked for others and did not aim at their own aggrandisement. They did not seek immortality. It came to them begging.

This story tells us that we, ordinary humans can become gods if we follow the Rbhus and exert ourselves in the service of others. Devas are said to be the friends of those who work hard. न ऋते श्रान्तस्य सख्याय देवाः। 4.33.11

 

[mskmoorthy]

From your post http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/vedic-hyms/12632-layman-reads-rig-veda-5.html#post197795 I have a problem with your conclusion - Last two sentences - It looks like cherry picking RV slokas to fit a theory (or in scientific parlance choose the data to fit a model) - To be complete, one has to know/show that there are no contradictions in rest of RV about hard work (may be this is an impossible task)

Your post is one interpretation and that is better than having a zero interpretation (at least for me). I want to make sure that I am not making any wrong conclusions.

 

[sangom]

From your post http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/vedic-hyms/12632-layman-reads-rig-veda-5.html#post197795 I have a problem with your conclusion - Last two sentences - It looks like cherry picking RV slokas to fit a theory (or in scientific parlance choose the data to fit a model) - To be complete, one has to know/show that there are no contradictions in rest of RV about hard work (may be this is an impossible task)

Your post is one interpretation and that is better than having a zero interpretation (at least for me). I want to make sure that I am not making any wrong conclusions.

Shri Moorthy,

There can be more than one interpretation for many topics of the RV since we are talking of the misty beginnings of vedic religion itself. One book which may be of interest in this context is "The Civilized Demons: The Harappans in Rigveda by Malati J. Shendge".

 

[mskmoorthy]

Sri Sangom Sir,

Pranams. Thanks for giving the reference of a book written by Malati J. Shendge. Will certainly try to get that book and read/understand.

Moorthy

 

[vikrama]

Yes. There can be many interpretations -from the most logical to the most absurd. Aurobindo quotes a book by one Sri Parameswara Iyer. I went through the first 50 pages of this book. He describes the devas as phenomenons of geological actions such as volcano etc. Indra is a volcano. Agni is the lava emanating from it and so on. I did not have the patience to read it further. The shortcoming of this and even the theory of Sri Aurobindo is that their interpretations do not fit in all the contexts.

Regarding my theory, the story of the Rbhus is the only mainstay on which I rely to declare that man becomes deva. Aurobindo also says this. AFAIK, there is nothing in RV contrary to this view. It is for scholars to point out if there is anything. I will be only glad to learn.

 

[vikrama]

16 A horse becomes a deva.
In the light of the above findings, I would like to give a new interpretation to the two mantras- 4.18.1 & 4.18.2

अयम् पन्था: अनु-वित्त: पुराण: यत: देवा: उत्-अजायन्त विश्वे अत: चित् आ जनिषीष्ट प्र-वृद्ध: मा मातरम् अमुया पत्तवे क: RV_4,18.1
“This is the ancient and accepted pathway by which all Gods have come into existence. Hereby could one be born though waxen mighty. Let him not, otherwise, destroy his Mother.”
न अहम् अत: नि: अय दु:-गहा एतत् तिरश्चता पार्श्वात् नि: गमानि बहूनि मे अकृता कर्त्वानि युध्यै त्वेन सम् त्वेन पृच्छै RV_4,18.2
“Not this way go I forth: hard is the passage. Forth from the side obliquely will I issue. Much that is yet undone must I accomplish; one must I combat and the other question.”

The above is Griffith’s translation. Sayana’s interpretation is almost the same except that he brings in, from somewhere, a legend that Vamadeva, while in his mother’s womb, wants to come out through her side. In the first mantra, Indra dissuades him. The second mantra tells Vamadeva’s insistence.

I take the above two mantras to mean that there is no shortcut to becoming a deva. It involves selflessness, excellent ability for mighty tasks and hardwork. If one tries to attain it by other means, he harms the Mother Nature, that is, violates the Law of Nature and will not succeed. The subsequent mantras in the suktam, attributed to Aditi by Sayana, tell us that a hero like Indra is born very rarely, after years of waiting and vindicate my point.
Indra and others could perform great deeds not because they were devas. But they could become devas because they performed great deeds. Look at the following mantra speaking of Indra.
स: मज्मना जनिम मानुषाणाम् अमर्त्येन नाम्ना अति प्र सर्स्रे 6.18.7

Griffith- He in his might, with name that lives for ever, hath far surpassed all human generations.

Sayana- With immortal foe-humiliating might he has promoted the birth of mankind.

My interpretation – He, by might that can be called immortal, far surpassed the human birth (and became a deva).

Hope Scholars would agree with me.

Those who posses excellent capacity for great deeds in the cause of others are elevated to the status of devas. This applies to animals and inanimate things also. Thus the horse dadhikra दधिक्रा becomes worthy of worship. So do the rivers.