N
Nara
Guest
kkumar219, I endorse your statement 100%. But let us talk also please, how else will I pass my time?
Cheers!
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A Few Glimpses from South Indian History
- Thread starter sangom
- Start date
- Status
Cheers!
dear sangom,
can a lion retire because he thinks the tiger is a better hunter? please continue what you have started. not only is it very informational, but i love the way you provide the references. truly a work of erudition.
pray continue with your train of thought so well expressed when you started this thread. thank you.
mr kumar is another breath of fresh air past day. nacchi is back.
i will ignore the minus 25 celsius outside, and rejoice that spring is coming in another 4 weeks
cheers !!
OP
OP
sangom
0
dear sangom,
can a lion retire because he thinks the tiger is a better hunter? please continue what you have started. not only is it very informational, but i love the way you provide the references. truly a work of erudition.
pray continue with your train of thought so well expressed when you started this thread. thank you.
mr kumar is another breath of fresh air past day. nacchi is back.
i will ignore the minus 25 celsius outside, and rejoice that spring is coming in another 4 weeks
cheers !!
OK Sir, I will continue. But Shri Kumar has said what needs to be said to tabras now.
N
Nara
Guest
Vivek,
I don't know whether Rajaji and Bharathiyar were apologetic or proud to be a Brahmin, and IMO, that is irrelevant. When they opposed caste oppression, IMO, they didn't do so because they were Brahmins. Also, IMO, when someone opposes caste oppression, it is silly to claim credit for such actions along caste lines.
I agree with you that the caste system, which is a product of Brahminism, is much bigger than just Brahmins. But, in this forum named after Tamil Brahmins, the focus must be on the role of Brahmins and what they can do about it.
I also agree with you that it is not right to polarize society and spread hate. But, you must realize that only those who are ignorant of Tamil history will deny that Brahmins were the ones who actively bifurcated Tamil society into B and NB. For them, anyone who was not a B was just Shudra, whether it was Naickar, Mudaliyar, Chettiyar, Nadar, Naidu, Pillai, the lot of them were just Shudras. Even in this forum, those who question the identity of certain members, do so on the basis of B or NB. Of course, then there are Parayan, Pallan, etc.
Further, I don't think there is any factual basis to the claim that the Dravidian parties are pushing this polarization. No TB who has chosen to make a living in Tamil Nadu is doing anything but splendidly. Reservation system only restricts them from subsidized education. If my relatives are a representative sample, then no TB goes without profitable educational opportunity. There are many successful TB business people. On the average, TBs own more property than many other caste groups. To top it all, one of these Dravidian parties is headed by a Brahmin.
Today, if anything, there is less polarization in Tamil Nadu. In the cities, people belonging to all castes live side-by-side, along class lines. In villages there is polarization, between the dominant castes and the Dalits. Brahmins are not polraized out. There are hardly any Brahmins left in villages these days -- no Vivek, they were not forced into exile, they left on their own accord looking for better pastures.
So, I think you have no basis in fact that Brahmins in Tamil Nadu are suffering polarization and are suffering hatred.
The role of EVR in fighting casteism is unmatched in the history of Tamil Nadu. Unlike Rajaji and Bharathiyar, he rejected the varna system outright. (BTW, it would be silly for Naiker caste people to claim credit for EVR fighting caste.) IMO, his goal was to free the Tamil population from the yoke of superstitions and inculcate a sense of pride and self-respect just for being a human being. For that he had to break the spell of Brahmin superiority among NBs. This is the reason he attacked everything Brahminism.
The general public was delighted with his anti-B rhetoric, but did not accept his anti-superstition rhetoric. This is because the general public in his time was fed up with Brahmin conceit and therefore the anti-Brahmin rhetoric resonated. One might be tempted to say the masses were brainwashed. But the public did not get swayed by EVR's rhetoric on rationalism. What resonated with the public, and what did not, shows that the masses were not mere clay in EVR's hands, they despised the dominance of Brahminism in their lives.
Cheers!
I don't know whether Rajaji and Bharathiyar were apologetic or proud to be a Brahmin, and IMO, that is irrelevant. When they opposed caste oppression, IMO, they didn't do so because they were Brahmins. Also, IMO, when someone opposes caste oppression, it is silly to claim credit for such actions along caste lines.
I agree with you that the caste system, which is a product of Brahminism, is much bigger than just Brahmins. But, in this forum named after Tamil Brahmins, the focus must be on the role of Brahmins and what they can do about it.
I also agree with you that it is not right to polarize society and spread hate. But, you must realize that only those who are ignorant of Tamil history will deny that Brahmins were the ones who actively bifurcated Tamil society into B and NB. For them, anyone who was not a B was just Shudra, whether it was Naickar, Mudaliyar, Chettiyar, Nadar, Naidu, Pillai, the lot of them were just Shudras. Even in this forum, those who question the identity of certain members, do so on the basis of B or NB. Of course, then there are Parayan, Pallan, etc.
Further, I don't think there is any factual basis to the claim that the Dravidian parties are pushing this polarization. No TB who has chosen to make a living in Tamil Nadu is doing anything but splendidly. Reservation system only restricts them from subsidized education. If my relatives are a representative sample, then no TB goes without profitable educational opportunity. There are many successful TB business people. On the average, TBs own more property than many other caste groups. To top it all, one of these Dravidian parties is headed by a Brahmin.
Today, if anything, there is less polarization in Tamil Nadu. In the cities, people belonging to all castes live side-by-side, along class lines. In villages there is polarization, between the dominant castes and the Dalits. Brahmins are not polraized out. There are hardly any Brahmins left in villages these days -- no Vivek, they were not forced into exile, they left on their own accord looking for better pastures.
So, I think you have no basis in fact that Brahmins in Tamil Nadu are suffering polarization and are suffering hatred.
The role of EVR in fighting casteism is unmatched in the history of Tamil Nadu. Unlike Rajaji and Bharathiyar, he rejected the varna system outright. (BTW, it would be silly for Naiker caste people to claim credit for EVR fighting caste.) IMO, his goal was to free the Tamil population from the yoke of superstitions and inculcate a sense of pride and self-respect just for being a human being. For that he had to break the spell of Brahmin superiority among NBs. This is the reason he attacked everything Brahminism.
The general public was delighted with his anti-B rhetoric, but did not accept his anti-superstition rhetoric. This is because the general public in his time was fed up with Brahmin conceit and therefore the anti-Brahmin rhetoric resonated. One might be tempted to say the masses were brainwashed. But the public did not get swayed by EVR's rhetoric on rationalism. What resonated with the public, and what did not, shows that the masses were not mere clay in EVR's hands, they despised the dominance of Brahminism in their lives.
Cheers!
Last edited by a moderator:
Sri Kkumar 29
"Right or wrong, in Tamil Nadu the anti brahmin feeling exists. Looking at this problem objectively, one needs to find out what is causing this sentiment and work towards eliminating the root cause. If it is based on History then you create history by behaving in a different manner to the past and wipe out the root cause."
The cause of anti-brahminism is well known, for that matter any lower sections of society could have been turned to hate upper sections. If a movement starts which condemns upper caste NBs for their treatment of dalits in rural areas which includes even violence, of course tamil dalits will follow the movement if its backed by ruling polity. That apart, its the message to society at large which is more important.
So its not about the cause of it, its about the effect it has in society and the way a party spreads a message. Of course, I can dismiss DK's rhetoric like another political party's (say Shiv Sena) which spews venom to gain political mileage.
What I can't understand is why certain members here find it so appealing and seem to even give justification for it.
If there are references which show more brahmins were educated than NBs - it was because they found it imperative to become educated. DK would have done well to spread a message on the importance of education. People like Radhakrishnan had the same message for the country.
I don't agree to a view that merely because Supreme court accepted the reservations, it must be right. We all know how efficient the Indian SC is in decision making, and how it is swayed by caste identities.
Regarding support for the DK movement, let me give an analogy. If a ruling polity said so and so NB upper castes keep workers on fields, they don't pay them wages, they do violence against them etc etc. Do these events morally justify attacking those upper caste communities politically? It doesn't to me. Neither does DK acknowledge the entire history of TBs, its reduced to nothing but a version in which the TB is a social evil, a foreigner and an oppressor. That view is far from the truth for anyone who has actually seen casteism completely. And that is where my morality stands apart from that those supporting the DK. The support in this thread only reveals to me how morally bankrupt DK supporters are. In the meantime, they can continue patting each others' backs.
All I can say is, its not the sort of leadership which should appeal to us, if indeed we are working to a progressive society of actual equality.
Regards,
Vivek.
"Right or wrong, in Tamil Nadu the anti brahmin feeling exists. Looking at this problem objectively, one needs to find out what is causing this sentiment and work towards eliminating the root cause. If it is based on History then you create history by behaving in a different manner to the past and wipe out the root cause."
The cause of anti-brahminism is well known, for that matter any lower sections of society could have been turned to hate upper sections. If a movement starts which condemns upper caste NBs for their treatment of dalits in rural areas which includes even violence, of course tamil dalits will follow the movement if its backed by ruling polity. That apart, its the message to society at large which is more important.
So its not about the cause of it, its about the effect it has in society and the way a party spreads a message. Of course, I can dismiss DK's rhetoric like another political party's (say Shiv Sena) which spews venom to gain political mileage.
What I can't understand is why certain members here find it so appealing and seem to even give justification for it.
If there are references which show more brahmins were educated than NBs - it was because they found it imperative to become educated. DK would have done well to spread a message on the importance of education. People like Radhakrishnan had the same message for the country.
I don't agree to a view that merely because Supreme court accepted the reservations, it must be right. We all know how efficient the Indian SC is in decision making, and how it is swayed by caste identities.
Regarding support for the DK movement, let me give an analogy. If a ruling polity said so and so NB upper castes keep workers on fields, they don't pay them wages, they do violence against them etc etc. Do these events morally justify attacking those upper caste communities politically? It doesn't to me. Neither does DK acknowledge the entire history of TBs, its reduced to nothing but a version in which the TB is a social evil, a foreigner and an oppressor. That view is far from the truth for anyone who has actually seen casteism completely. And that is where my morality stands apart from that those supporting the DK. The support in this thread only reveals to me how morally bankrupt DK supporters are. In the meantime, they can continue patting each others' backs.
All I can say is, its not the sort of leadership which should appeal to us, if indeed we are working to a progressive society of actual equality.
Regards,
Vivek.
Last edited:
namaste.
Our system of jAti and varNa is not on the same lines as the system that existed/exists in the Western countries as exemplified by the Portuguese term 'caste'. Here are some links to articles that reveal how we blindly follow the western perspective of looking at our system with their perspective of castes as it existed in their systems. Any reformation should aim at improving how we Indians feel about our jAti-varna system as it exists today and what we can do to make it fair (since it cannot be wished away), and NOT at how the West wants us to change.
HAF Caste report
Hinduism Not Caste in Caste Full Report | Hindu American Foundation (HAF)
Critiques on the damages that the report can cause abroad:
Rajiv Malhotra's Critique of HAF Report on caste
Casteism not exclusive to Hinduism
https://sites.google.com/site/hindunew/jaati
Our system of jAti and varNa is not on the same lines as the system that existed/exists in the Western countries as exemplified by the Portuguese term 'caste'. Here are some links to articles that reveal how we blindly follow the western perspective of looking at our system with their perspective of castes as it existed in their systems. Any reformation should aim at improving how we Indians feel about our jAti-varna system as it exists today and what we can do to make it fair (since it cannot be wished away), and NOT at how the West wants us to change.
HAF Caste report
Hinduism Not Caste in Caste Full Report | Hindu American Foundation (HAF)
Critiques on the damages that the report can cause abroad:
Rajiv Malhotra's Critique of HAF Report on caste
Casteism not exclusive to Hinduism
https://sites.google.com/site/hindunew/jaati
N
Nara
Guest
Saidevo, I agree with you wholeheartedly! Indians must decide how this jati/varna system must be dealt with. Given India is a democracy, however flawed the Indian democracy may be, the Indian government represents the will of the people, and the people of India have already spoken and they want caste discrimination to be addressed via progressive affirmative actions to lift the traditionally oppressed people up.
The Indian politics does reject Brahminism and the caste system it stands for. The Indian popular sentiment has already rejected the caste system, but it is still struggling to get out of it due to historical reasons and the tremendous influence of conservatives in the social arena.
In other words, the rejection of Brahminsim in India is an indigenous phenomenon, nothing to do with western influence in general or what caste means in Portuguese in particular.
If caste is not unique to Hinduism, what difference would that make? Even if every society and religion followed caste system, it would still be a pernicious and brutal system. Even if every other society follows caste system in its most pernicious and brutal form, still it would make immense sense for the Hindus to dismantle it and be free of it.
-- Cheers!
Sri Nara
"I don't know whether Rajaji and Bharathiyar were apologetic or proud to be a Brahmin, and IMO, that is irrelevant."
It is completely relevant. On one hand you have a view of the DK which places being tamil and being brahmins as dicotonomical perspectives, on the other you have Bharatiyar who actually performed thread ceremony for a low caste and yet regarded himself fully tamil. Its relevant because these people didn't caste off their identities in order to have been part of a good change or message to society.
"I agree with you that the caste system, which is a product of Brahminism, is much bigger than just Brahmins. But, in this forum named after Tamil Brahmins, the focus must be on the role of Brahmins and what they can do about it. "
You go ahead to slyly call casteism "brahminism" and yet now (after much delay) agree that its a much bigger issue. There is nothing to say brahmins started the casteism in the form it is now. How it came is a question of itself. By giving the name "brahminism" you continue with your blame game.
Kshatriya clans for instance didn't consider themselves kshatriyas because brahmins told them, they just were in their own tradition.
"I also agree with you that it is not right to polarize society and spread hate. But, you must realize that only those who are ignorant of Tamil history will deny that Brahmins were the ones who actively bifurcated Tamil society into B and NB. For them, anyone who was not a B was just Shudra, whether it was Naickar, Mudaliyar, Chettiyar, Nadar, Naidu, Pillai, the lot of them were just Shudras."
And from where do you get this piece of information? If Naickers were considered Shudras by the cretin/scum orthodoxy of EVR's childhood time, you think they would have come into his house to speak on the scriptures? This dicotonomical view of society (along with racial ideas of skin colour) was brought by EVR. This is exactly why I asked Sangom to read about the genesis of ideas like "aryans and dravidians", when he falsely made a spectacular claim that aryans called dark skinned south Indians rakshasas.
"No TB who has chosen to make a living in Tamil Nadu is doing anything but splendidly. Reservation system only restricts them from subsidized education."
I already explained (to Kunjuppu) the issue is not about living or wealth, its about the question of identity. Certain Muslim actors, and bussiness people (like those in Bandra, Mumbai) are doing very well, it doesn't mean Shiv Sena's anti-Muslim rhetoric is justified or okay.
"There are many successful TB business people. On the average, TBs own more property than many other caste groups. To top it all, one of these Dravidian parties is headed by a Brahmin."
Jaya's AIADMK role in politics is irrelevant. TN is a single party system, with every election making AIADMK only a representational "second party" for a democratic election. The damage however has been done. To be a Tamilian and a brahmin is like to be a German and a Jew. While the Nazi rhetoric is unfamous, DK's version of history (clearly fabricated, and only made to include negativities of brahmins) is popular.
And these brahmins didn't come to own property or become successful because of DK, they did despite DK policy.
"So, I think you have no basis in fact that Brahmins in Tamil Nadu are suffering polarization and are suffering hatred."
Nara, you have no idea what I am talking about, if you take your "successful bussiness TBs" and "more property owning TBs" as basis. TBs for that matter can go an own property in other countries too, it doesn't mean they become accepted amongst them or by the ruling polity.
"The role of EVR in fighting casteism is unmatched in the history of Tamil Nadu. Unlike Rajaji and Bharathiyar, he rejected the varna system outright."
EVR didn't reject the varna system, he would have then considered all people the same in his policies - he didn't. Bharatiyar's and Rajaji's fight against casteism had a message and reached the lowest sections. As for EVR's struggle, it had no message in it for tamil dalits, they continue to face caste atrocities. Secondly, Bharatiyar and Rajaji are great leaders, they harboured no hate.
"The general public was delighted with his anti-B rhetoric, but did not accept his anti-superstition rhetoric. "
The reply to this is the same as the first reply to Kkumar 29 in the previous post.
"This is because the general public in his time was fed up with Brahmin conceit and therefore the anti-Brahmin rhetoric resonated. One might be tempted to say the masses were brainwashed. But the public did not get swayed by EVR's rhetoric on rationalism."
It becomes easy to spread a hate rhetoric against many communities, that doesn't become right though.
I agree large number of brahmins in the past generations espcially those unaware of the modern world, and stuck in their false ideas of supremacy had a conceit for which present generations have come to pay for.
But take this for instance: In US, if a Obama (as a mulatto/black leader) came to speak of how whites are in position because they were the colonial rulers etc etc and that they need to be wiped, hated, destroyed, it places selective historically correct facts no doubt and could spread an ideology of hate. Would that be progressive? Or justified for the present generation? The fact that an individual (like many here) find such a ideology appealing tells something else.
I went to TN for a wedding of my second cousin and I could find no anti-brahminism. Tamil people were friendly (esp if you speak to them in tamil). But the issue of identity and the message a ruling polity spreads is something different though. All the great opinions of Chennai (my mother so proudly spoke of despite the DMK anti-brahmin rule) didn't reveal itself to me. Not that Chennai seemed bad, it was like Mumbai - but not a spectacular developed city as my mother had me believe earlier.
Regards,
Vivek.
"I don't know whether Rajaji and Bharathiyar were apologetic or proud to be a Brahmin, and IMO, that is irrelevant."
It is completely relevant. On one hand you have a view of the DK which places being tamil and being brahmins as dicotonomical perspectives, on the other you have Bharatiyar who actually performed thread ceremony for a low caste and yet regarded himself fully tamil. Its relevant because these people didn't caste off their identities in order to have been part of a good change or message to society.
"I agree with you that the caste system, which is a product of Brahminism, is much bigger than just Brahmins. But, in this forum named after Tamil Brahmins, the focus must be on the role of Brahmins and what they can do about it. "
You go ahead to slyly call casteism "brahminism" and yet now (after much delay) agree that its a much bigger issue. There is nothing to say brahmins started the casteism in the form it is now. How it came is a question of itself. By giving the name "brahminism" you continue with your blame game.
Kshatriya clans for instance didn't consider themselves kshatriyas because brahmins told them, they just were in their own tradition.
"I also agree with you that it is not right to polarize society and spread hate. But, you must realize that only those who are ignorant of Tamil history will deny that Brahmins were the ones who actively bifurcated Tamil society into B and NB. For them, anyone who was not a B was just Shudra, whether it was Naickar, Mudaliyar, Chettiyar, Nadar, Naidu, Pillai, the lot of them were just Shudras."
And from where do you get this piece of information? If Naickers were considered Shudras by the cretin/scum orthodoxy of EVR's childhood time, you think they would have come into his house to speak on the scriptures? This dicotonomical view of society (along with racial ideas of skin colour) was brought by EVR. This is exactly why I asked Sangom to read about the genesis of ideas like "aryans and dravidians", when he falsely made a spectacular claim that aryans called dark skinned south Indians rakshasas.
"No TB who has chosen to make a living in Tamil Nadu is doing anything but splendidly. Reservation system only restricts them from subsidized education."
I already explained (to Kunjuppu) the issue is not about living or wealth, its about the question of identity. Certain Muslim actors, and bussiness people (like those in Bandra, Mumbai) are doing very well, it doesn't mean Shiv Sena's anti-Muslim rhetoric is justified or okay.
"There are many successful TB business people. On the average, TBs own more property than many other caste groups. To top it all, one of these Dravidian parties is headed by a Brahmin."
Jaya's AIADMK role in politics is irrelevant. TN is a single party system, with every election making AIADMK only a representational "second party" for a democratic election. The damage however has been done. To be a Tamilian and a brahmin is like to be a German and a Jew. While the Nazi rhetoric is unfamous, DK's version of history (clearly fabricated, and only made to include negativities of brahmins) is popular.
And these brahmins didn't come to own property or become successful because of DK, they did despite DK policy.
"So, I think you have no basis in fact that Brahmins in Tamil Nadu are suffering polarization and are suffering hatred."
Nara, you have no idea what I am talking about, if you take your "successful bussiness TBs" and "more property owning TBs" as basis. TBs for that matter can go an own property in other countries too, it doesn't mean they become accepted amongst them or by the ruling polity.
"The role of EVR in fighting casteism is unmatched in the history of Tamil Nadu. Unlike Rajaji and Bharathiyar, he rejected the varna system outright."
EVR didn't reject the varna system, he would have then considered all people the same in his policies - he didn't. Bharatiyar's and Rajaji's fight against casteism had a message and reached the lowest sections. As for EVR's struggle, it had no message in it for tamil dalits, they continue to face caste atrocities. Secondly, Bharatiyar and Rajaji are great leaders, they harboured no hate.
"The general public was delighted with his anti-B rhetoric, but did not accept his anti-superstition rhetoric. "
The reply to this is the same as the first reply to Kkumar 29 in the previous post.
"This is because the general public in his time was fed up with Brahmin conceit and therefore the anti-Brahmin rhetoric resonated. One might be tempted to say the masses were brainwashed. But the public did not get swayed by EVR's rhetoric on rationalism."
It becomes easy to spread a hate rhetoric against many communities, that doesn't become right though.
I agree large number of brahmins in the past generations espcially those unaware of the modern world, and stuck in their false ideas of supremacy had a conceit for which present generations have come to pay for.
But take this for instance: In US, if a Obama (as a mulatto/black leader) came to speak of how whites are in position because they were the colonial rulers etc etc and that they need to be wiped, hated, destroyed, it places selective historically correct facts no doubt and could spread an ideology of hate. Would that be progressive? Or justified for the present generation? The fact that an individual (like many here) find such a ideology appealing tells something else.
I went to TN for a wedding of my second cousin and I could find no anti-brahminism. Tamil people were friendly (esp if you speak to them in tamil). But the issue of identity and the message a ruling polity spreads is something different though. All the great opinions of Chennai (my mother so proudly spoke of despite the DMK anti-brahmin rule) didn't reveal itself to me. Not that Chennai seemed bad, it was like Mumbai - but not a spectacular developed city as my mother had me believe earlier.
Regards,
Vivek.
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Dear Sri Vivek Ji,
I consider you a decent person. So, please do not take this directive as a Moderator on my part as offensive.
In your response to Sri K.Kumar Ji in post # 30, you allude to what Sri Sangom Ji said. In a Forum like this, I would like the posters to address any concerns they may have with others in a direct way - you should have addressed those points directly to Sri Sangom Ji. This way, we can limit sarcasm and indirect references. Hope you understand.
Regards,
KRS
I consider you a decent person. So, please do not take this directive as a Moderator on my part as offensive.
In your response to Sri K.Kumar Ji in post # 30, you allude to what Sri Sangom Ji said. In a Forum like this, I would like the posters to address any concerns they may have with others in a direct way - you should have addressed those points directly to Sri Sangom Ji. This way, we can limit sarcasm and indirect references. Hope you understand.
Regards,
KRS
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It is not about being offensive. It is about etiquette. Sri Sangom Ji should have known about your ideas about his opinions directly from you, rather than from a third party post.
By the way, as a Moderator I can view ALL the posts, even if they are deleted.
Regards,
KRS
By the way, as a Moderator I can view ALL the posts, even if they are deleted.
Regards,
KRS
OP
OP
sangom
0
In this post Shri Kunjuppu has copied another post which refers to the Durbar of King George V in Delhi in 1911. It was on this occasion, in praise of the Emperor that Rabindranath Tagore's song "Jana Gana Mana" was sung (by whom and all I don't know). Now, if you see the wording of the first stanza which is mandatory in our National Anthem, you will find, "panjābo, sindho, gujarāto, marāṭhā, drāviḍo, utkalo, bangā". Note that even in 1911 a person of the eminence of Shri Tagore has used the term "drāviḍ" to bracket the south Indians as a whole. Further, in the same stanza we find "Bindhyo Himaachalo Jamunaa Gangaa, Uchchhalo Jalodhi Tarango"; is it not very clear that even for Tagore, India meant "aaryaavarta" only and the area between "Bindhyo" and "Himaachalo"?
Why I say this is to bring it to the notice of our members that the southerners were looked down upon by the northerners even as late as in 1911, and we tabras were living in Madras presidency as the ruling elite, adopting the Sanskritic scriptures and the vedic rituals, which, irrespective of whether the aryans were a separate race or not, is generally held to be the scriptures of a people who called themselves "aryas". Added to these was the reference to monkeys and rakshasas in the Ramayana, which is an import from the north and one of the most sacred texts for us tabras.
During those days, even the Saiva aagama people accused the tabras of misleading their original dravidian saiva siddhaanta with those of the brahminic gods and thus polluting it.
Hence I find nothing wrong with the DK using the racial card against tabras; after all the tabras' position was in many aspects similar to that of the British in India - an unwanted people lording it over us. So it must have been natural that the non-tabra people got fed up and wanted us to quit just in the same fashion as Gandhi started the வெள்ளையனே வெளியேறு (Quit India) movement.
The best thing, therefore, according to me is what has been stated by Shri Kumar - viz., to understand that there is resentment against tabras, not to go on shouting against it and accusing that the policies of DK/DMK were/are immoral, inequitable, etc., and strive at individual levels to learn to live with it as best as possible, since our community as a whole is not likely to change suddenly.
Why I say this is to bring it to the notice of our members that the southerners were looked down upon by the northerners even as late as in 1911, and we tabras were living in Madras presidency as the ruling elite, adopting the Sanskritic scriptures and the vedic rituals, which, irrespective of whether the aryans were a separate race or not, is generally held to be the scriptures of a people who called themselves "aryas". Added to these was the reference to monkeys and rakshasas in the Ramayana, which is an import from the north and one of the most sacred texts for us tabras.
During those days, even the Saiva aagama people accused the tabras of misleading their original dravidian saiva siddhaanta with those of the brahminic gods and thus polluting it.
Hence I find nothing wrong with the DK using the racial card against tabras; after all the tabras' position was in many aspects similar to that of the British in India - an unwanted people lording it over us. So it must have been natural that the non-tabra people got fed up and wanted us to quit just in the same fashion as Gandhi started the வெள்ளையனே வெளியேறு (Quit India) movement.
The best thing, therefore, according to me is what has been stated by Shri Kumar - viz., to understand that there is resentment against tabras, not to go on shouting against it and accusing that the policies of DK/DMK were/are immoral, inequitable, etc., and strive at individual levels to learn to live with it as best as possible, since our community as a whole is not likely to change suddenly.
S
SwamiTaBra
Guest
Dear Mr. Kumar,
What set of actions you propose? Is it like inter-dining, inter-marrying, abandoning orthodox practices on purity, austerity, donating the wealth acquired by brahmins (particularly the NRIs who benefited by state-subsidised education in India and prospering in distant shores).?
Better come out with your actions you propose so that we can discuss.
Rgds.,
S
SwamiTaBra
Guest
Could you please cite the judgement, or at least give me the date when the imprimatur of SC was given for 69% reservation ? As far as I know it was struck down by the SC, but as in many cases the govt. open flouts SCs directive..
Rgds.,
K
kkumar29
Guest
Shri SwamiTaBra,
I am not advocating any of the actions you have listed. My suggestion was to first find out what actions/behavior of brahmins caused the anti-brahmin sentiments to grow. Then change that behavior to fit in with the majority population at the individual level.
It may involve all or some of the actions you have listed. Personally I try to interact with other human beings as my equal without any caste based differentiation, retaining my individuality. The point I am making is that if such actions are taken at the individual level, the brahmin community will be integrated in a seemless fashion with the rest of the population and there will be no target left to aim at.
What actions you take is up to you. I just wanted to give a macro level framework on how to solve the larger problem.
Regards,
K. Kumar.
I am not advocating any of the actions you have listed. My suggestion was to first find out what actions/behavior of brahmins caused the anti-brahmin sentiments to grow. Then change that behavior to fit in with the majority population at the individual level.
It may involve all or some of the actions you have listed. Personally I try to interact with other human beings as my equal without any caste based differentiation, retaining my individuality. The point I am making is that if such actions are taken at the individual level, the brahmin community will be integrated in a seemless fashion with the rest of the population and there will be no target left to aim at.
What actions you take is up to you. I just wanted to give a macro level framework on how to solve the larger problem.
Regards,
K. Kumar.
S
SwamiTaBra
Guest
You have cleverly not answered my question, just side-stepped that.
I suspect your understanding of the society is poor, much less about the Indian society.
You better equip yourselves better by careful observations and reading some material, even if quite a few of them are biased.
You have made some politically correct noises on which you appear lack conviction.
By the way, can I know your antecedents?
From here onwards, only the Moderators reserve the right to question any bonafides or antecedents of any member in this Forum - KRS
Rgds.
Last edited by a moderator:
S
SwamiTaBra
Guest
Rajaji's Conservatism - I
On Religion and Mythology**
Prof. Toynbee deals at some length with accretions in religions. “If it is hazardous,” he says, “ to state the essence of the higher religions, it is even more hazardous to try to discriminate from it the non-essential accretions hat can be and ought to be discarded. It is perhaps safest to begin by stripping off what looks like the outermost layer, and then to feel our way cautiously, through one layer after another, towards the quick. “Dealing with myths, that form part of all religions, “Can these myths be discarded,” he asks,”without taking the heart out of the faiths whose essence the myths convey?”
Even the great iconoclast Bernard Shaw wrote “All the sweetness of religion is conveyed to the world by the hands of story-tellers and image-makers. Without their fiction the truths of religion would for the multitude be neither intelligible nor even apprehensible; and the prophets would prophesy and the teachers teach in vain. Myths are an indispensable means for expressing as much as we can express of the ineffable for probing what is beyond man’s intellectual horizon.”
[FONT="]The process of discarding what may be considered unessential is a hazardous operation. Toynbee graphically describes the risk: “You might go on peeling an onion till you found that you had peeled away the heart as well as the skin; and you might go on cleaning a picture-stripping off successive coats of varnish and layers of paint-till, with a shock, you found yourself left with nothing but the bare canvas backing. ------ Swarajya
[/FONT]
[FONT="]** This could also be considered as an response to Sri Sangom's stand on mythology,[/FONT]
expressed in various threads.
On Religion and Mythology**
Prof. Toynbee deals at some length with accretions in religions. “If it is hazardous,” he says, “ to state the essence of the higher religions, it is even more hazardous to try to discriminate from it the non-essential accretions hat can be and ought to be discarded. It is perhaps safest to begin by stripping off what looks like the outermost layer, and then to feel our way cautiously, through one layer after another, towards the quick. “Dealing with myths, that form part of all religions, “Can these myths be discarded,” he asks,”without taking the heart out of the faiths whose essence the myths convey?”
Even the great iconoclast Bernard Shaw wrote “All the sweetness of religion is conveyed to the world by the hands of story-tellers and image-makers. Without their fiction the truths of religion would for the multitude be neither intelligible nor even apprehensible; and the prophets would prophesy and the teachers teach in vain. Myths are an indispensable means for expressing as much as we can express of the ineffable for probing what is beyond man’s intellectual horizon.”
[FONT="]The process of discarding what may be considered unessential is a hazardous operation. Toynbee graphically describes the risk: “You might go on peeling an onion till you found that you had peeled away the heart as well as the skin; and you might go on cleaning a picture-stripping off successive coats of varnish and layers of paint-till, with a shock, you found yourself left with nothing but the bare canvas backing. ------ Swarajya
[/FONT]
[FONT="]** This could also be considered as an response to Sri Sangom's stand on mythology,[/FONT]
expressed in various threads.
S
SwamiTaBra
Guest
Rajaji's Conservatism - II
On Morality- Religion Link
Whatever the form or the denomination or the creed which birth and family provide for the individual, it is religion that fixes good and sound habits of thought and of external activity. Sometimes this works unseen and misleads men to believe that religion could be dispensed with. It would be wrong to ignore the silent forces of life, often the strongest, stronger than the forces that proclaim themselves loudly. Our forefathers and the forefathers of all the great nations of the world drew strength from the contemplation and worship of the Supreme Being. That worship and the faith behind it were the source of power to withstand false desires and base passions and to maintain high ideals of conduct in peace and in war. All history proves this. Neither science by itself, nor moral teachings that merely ask for good conduct without funishing a sanction for it, can achieve the purpose. Mere morality may run for some time on a previously acquired religious momentum. When the momentum is spent, it will stop dead. Moral teachings that are associated with a divinely inspired personality are religion and stand on a different footing from mere maxims printed as school literature.
Morals cannot stand on their own feet, but must be based on religion. We cannot make new religions in cold blood but must stick to traditional religions,” This is Prof Toynbee’s (Arnold) opinion. --- Swarajya
On Morality- Religion Link
Whatever the form or the denomination or the creed which birth and family provide for the individual, it is religion that fixes good and sound habits of thought and of external activity. Sometimes this works unseen and misleads men to believe that religion could be dispensed with. It would be wrong to ignore the silent forces of life, often the strongest, stronger than the forces that proclaim themselves loudly. Our forefathers and the forefathers of all the great nations of the world drew strength from the contemplation and worship of the Supreme Being. That worship and the faith behind it were the source of power to withstand false desires and base passions and to maintain high ideals of conduct in peace and in war. All history proves this. Neither science by itself, nor moral teachings that merely ask for good conduct without funishing a sanction for it, can achieve the purpose. Mere morality may run for some time on a previously acquired religious momentum. When the momentum is spent, it will stop dead. Moral teachings that are associated with a divinely inspired personality are religion and stand on a different footing from mere maxims printed as school literature.
Morals cannot stand on their own feet, but must be based on religion. We cannot make new religions in cold blood but must stick to traditional religions,” This is Prof Toynbee’s (Arnold) opinion. --- Swarajya
K
kkumar29
Guest
Since you have made such acute observations based on just a couple of my postings, I concede that I am not qualified to make any observations or postings to match your high intellectual level.
My antecedents are I am brahmin by birth and I will be 60 soon. That is all you need to know.
\
Regards,
K. Kumar.
S
SwamiTaBra
Guest
Rajaji's Conservatism - III
[FONT="]Love of One’s Community[/FONT]
A basic virtue does not become a vice if political ambition finds it to be an impediment in its way. Love of family and love of the larger by intimate circle to which you belong by birth and marriage are not vices, but are praiseworthy attitudes of life, which have survival value in the evolutionary struggle. That attachment to one’s family is not to be condemned or ignored is easily admitted. But attachment to the next concentric circle has come to be treated as unpatriotic. Instead of recognizing such attachments as an inevitable fact and building on them for the time being, until such attachments are dissolved by the march of culture and time, we have taught to ignore them and proceed as if they did not exist, thus generating widespread hypocrisy and unreality. Love of one’s community is a virtue and not a vice. It is a brick which can help us to build. It is a fact as true as the earth we stand upon, and it is futile to ignore it and build on something that is not true and does not exist.
[FONT="]There was more wisdom in British regime which formally (formerly?) organized the army regiments on communal esprit de corps – on the factual basis of communities, Sikhs, Jats, Rajputs, Marathas, etc., than in our premature and fallacious notion that we have abolished communal feeling and can build, ignoring it[/FONT][FONT="]. [/FONT][FONT="] ----[/FONT][FONT="]August 19, 1961 Swarajya [/FONT]
[FONT="]Love of One’s Community[/FONT]
A basic virtue does not become a vice if political ambition finds it to be an impediment in its way. Love of family and love of the larger by intimate circle to which you belong by birth and marriage are not vices, but are praiseworthy attitudes of life, which have survival value in the evolutionary struggle. That attachment to one’s family is not to be condemned or ignored is easily admitted. But attachment to the next concentric circle has come to be treated as unpatriotic. Instead of recognizing such attachments as an inevitable fact and building on them for the time being, until such attachments are dissolved by the march of culture and time, we have taught to ignore them and proceed as if they did not exist, thus generating widespread hypocrisy and unreality. Love of one’s community is a virtue and not a vice. It is a brick which can help us to build. It is a fact as true as the earth we stand upon, and it is futile to ignore it and build on something that is not true and does not exist.
[FONT="]There was more wisdom in British regime which formally (formerly?) organized the army regiments on communal esprit de corps – on the factual basis of communities, Sikhs, Jats, Rajputs, Marathas, etc., than in our premature and fallacious notion that we have abolished communal feeling and can build, ignoring it[/FONT][FONT="]. [/FONT][FONT="] ----[/FONT][FONT="]August 19, 1961 Swarajya [/FONT]
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OP
OP
sangom
0
Dear Shri Swami,
"peeling onions" is a task done invariably I would say; only then can we humans eat onion comfortably. It is not one and the same when we come to regard myths which are regarded as mere myths, and myths which overrule the human mind in the form of gods. So long as these myths are regarded as mere myths and are appreciated for the imagination of the poet or the poetic excellence of the writing (as in meghasandeasam of Kalidasa) it is ok. Only when an ordinarily written purana gets to the status of a scripture and god/gods are "created" out of those puranas, do those puranas become pernicious to humans, according to me.
A similar position will hold good for the painting also (though no one will try to clean it to the destructive end); as long as it is a painting, it is OK, but the moment it starts being regarded as divinity itself, it becomes bad. And the result of our over-religiosity should be evident from the fact that a great many consumer items are packed with some picture of an otherwise worshipped deity and these packages fly around everywhere on the roads; people spit on those pictures, even urinate on them but the so-called orthodoxy does not seem to have the least botheration. It is this hypocritical attitude that will result from the myths and ever so many mythical gods.
OP
OP
sangom
0
Shri Kumar,
Gratuitous advice to learn more, read more, etc., are becoming common now in this forum when one's views are clashing with another's and some sort of "putting down the opponent" is seen to be called for for the former's ego satisfaction. Don't worry I have also received similar advice!
S
SwamiTaBra
Guest
Rajaji's Conservatism - IV
[FONT="]The Link With Peasants [/FONT]
Everyone keeps talking about caste and the need for forgetting it, thereby prolonging its miserable life. We shall not go into the merits of this battle, or the means employed and the hypocrisies and hatreds this crusade develops. We have to deal with a new and more evil-bearing caste that is rapidly developing. It is the caste evolving out of school and higher education. Whoever it may be, whatever the pupil’s home-life and origin may be, once he goes to a village school and learns a little bit of the symbology of reading and writing, he becomes a non-working neo-brahmin. It is only when he fails miserably to obtain some soft job and has spent the best part of his youth in vain endeavour that he re-enters the hardway of living, and carries on a frustrated and angry existence. In most instances he fails to re-adjust himself.
This new caste that is developing to the detriment of the nation is not a reason against primary or higher education. It is, however, a phenomenon of grave importance that must be taken into account when we plan and plot education for the good of the people. Particularly, it an element of importance that should help us to formulate the curriculum of our children’s education.
The PM was near the problem when he recently addressed students of an agricultural college. He deplored the absence of a proper link between the agricultural colleges and the peasants. He wanted students to cultivate the habit of manual labour and keep their hands and legs in good order, and not allow their brains to disable their bodies. But this warning will be wasted if the principle is not kept in mind at the earliest stages of education of our people. In the primary stage it is that we fatally injure or boys by mis-education. Boys born in families to whom hard manual work was the routine are placed in schools where they are converted and forced into the new caste of labour-haters. Instead of re-organising and reforming the present non-labouring classes, we are worsening the situation by ruining the good traditions and habitsof even those who are good citizens, as they are. No amount of sermonizing, at later stages, can do any good, unless we avoid mistakes at the earliest stages.
When the present Education Minister of Madras and myself applied our minds and put forward a reformed scheme of primary education, in order to foster the readiness and aptitude for bodily labour, whatever one’s literary and intellectual education may be the communalists in the Congress made common cause with the dark forces of unadulterated communalism and smashed the project.
They ruined the chances of immediately doubling the pace of elementary education and keeping it free from the poison of bodily laziness that had become a deleterious corollary of literacy. Unwillingly, he Education Minister has suppressed and concealed his convictions so that his political career may not be imperiled. I am not writing this to blame him. What the prime minister said recently has furnished a reminder to what I consider to be the most important long-term issue relevant to progress and good culture.
It is not by not working that we can reach any national goal; 90% of national work is bodily labour. The notion that we rise in status in the mesure of our running away from bodily labour must be attacked from the earliest stage in the child’s education. Even what I am now writing may be interpreted by the malicious as an attempt to maintain the monopoly of bodily laziness for certain castes. These castes are bound to perish, unless they shed their laziness. I am concerned at the spreading of laziness among others, and want that mischief to be prevented. The function of literacy should be to add and improve work, not replace it.
An irrelevant thought issues out of these reflections to which expression may here be given without offending much the principle of orderly presentation of ideas. Agricultural colleges should be linked to the peasants in the country., said the PM. So also should legislative assemblies and Parliament be linked to the producing organs in the country. Industries including agriculture are left unrepresented in our national assemblies. This is because politics has become a full time profession at all stages, and the producing ad servicing professions are effectively excluded from it, except by the way of a parasitic and dependent relationship which has more evil in it than good. In the pre-Independence days, professions that were engaged in making national wealth were duly and directly represented in the assemblies, both in the then provinces and at the Centre. Policies were examined critically when they affected those who were directly concerned in industries and agriculture. There is now no link between politics and production, except the baneful link of corruption and graft. Instead of government by discussion, we have government by intimidation and threats of liquidation of producers by non-producers and idle politicians. This, as I have said before, irrelevant to the subject of this article, but a subject for serious thought along with other fundamental matters. ----------------- July 29, 1961 Swarajya
[FONT="]The Link With Peasants [/FONT]
Everyone keeps talking about caste and the need for forgetting it, thereby prolonging its miserable life. We shall not go into the merits of this battle, or the means employed and the hypocrisies and hatreds this crusade develops. We have to deal with a new and more evil-bearing caste that is rapidly developing. It is the caste evolving out of school and higher education. Whoever it may be, whatever the pupil’s home-life and origin may be, once he goes to a village school and learns a little bit of the symbology of reading and writing, he becomes a non-working neo-brahmin. It is only when he fails miserably to obtain some soft job and has spent the best part of his youth in vain endeavour that he re-enters the hardway of living, and carries on a frustrated and angry existence. In most instances he fails to re-adjust himself.
This new caste that is developing to the detriment of the nation is not a reason against primary or higher education. It is, however, a phenomenon of grave importance that must be taken into account when we plan and plot education for the good of the people. Particularly, it an element of importance that should help us to formulate the curriculum of our children’s education.
The PM was near the problem when he recently addressed students of an agricultural college. He deplored the absence of a proper link between the agricultural colleges and the peasants. He wanted students to cultivate the habit of manual labour and keep their hands and legs in good order, and not allow their brains to disable their bodies. But this warning will be wasted if the principle is not kept in mind at the earliest stages of education of our people. In the primary stage it is that we fatally injure or boys by mis-education. Boys born in families to whom hard manual work was the routine are placed in schools where they are converted and forced into the new caste of labour-haters. Instead of re-organising and reforming the present non-labouring classes, we are worsening the situation by ruining the good traditions and habitsof even those who are good citizens, as they are. No amount of sermonizing, at later stages, can do any good, unless we avoid mistakes at the earliest stages.
When the present Education Minister of Madras and myself applied our minds and put forward a reformed scheme of primary education, in order to foster the readiness and aptitude for bodily labour, whatever one’s literary and intellectual education may be the communalists in the Congress made common cause with the dark forces of unadulterated communalism and smashed the project.
They ruined the chances of immediately doubling the pace of elementary education and keeping it free from the poison of bodily laziness that had become a deleterious corollary of literacy. Unwillingly, he Education Minister has suppressed and concealed his convictions so that his political career may not be imperiled. I am not writing this to blame him. What the prime minister said recently has furnished a reminder to what I consider to be the most important long-term issue relevant to progress and good culture.
It is not by not working that we can reach any national goal; 90% of national work is bodily labour. The notion that we rise in status in the mesure of our running away from bodily labour must be attacked from the earliest stage in the child’s education. Even what I am now writing may be interpreted by the malicious as an attempt to maintain the monopoly of bodily laziness for certain castes. These castes are bound to perish, unless they shed their laziness. I am concerned at the spreading of laziness among others, and want that mischief to be prevented. The function of literacy should be to add and improve work, not replace it.
An irrelevant thought issues out of these reflections to which expression may here be given without offending much the principle of orderly presentation of ideas. Agricultural colleges should be linked to the peasants in the country., said the PM. So also should legislative assemblies and Parliament be linked to the producing organs in the country. Industries including agriculture are left unrepresented in our national assemblies. This is because politics has become a full time profession at all stages, and the producing ad servicing professions are effectively excluded from it, except by the way of a parasitic and dependent relationship which has more evil in it than good. In the pre-Independence days, professions that were engaged in making national wealth were duly and directly represented in the assemblies, both in the then provinces and at the Centre. Policies were examined critically when they affected those who were directly concerned in industries and agriculture. There is now no link between politics and production, except the baneful link of corruption and graft. Instead of government by discussion, we have government by intimidation and threats of liquidation of producers by non-producers and idle politicians. This, as I have said before, irrelevant to the subject of this article, but a subject for serious thought along with other fundamental matters. ----------------- July 29, 1961 Swarajya
S
SwamiTaBra
Guest
Thanks for the links.
Anyway it will open the Pandora's box .. Already the Gujjars are up in arms...
Let it go on.. All in a nation's evolution
Rgds.
Swami
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