A Few Glimpses from South Indian History

[sravna]

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Dear Sri saidevo Ji,

Wow! Are you Prescribing the caste system for today's society? Or are you justifying the caste system of the past? I could not tell.

Caste system as it has been practiced in recent India of pre-independence is largely dead. Do you agree with this statement?

Caste system as it is practiced today in India, post-independence is nothing to do with the Varna system, but rather a political division (because practicing castes is outlawed). Do you agree with this statement?

If you do with both statements, then I do not understand your post, and so, please elaborate.

If you do not with either of my statements - please post on the reasons for you not agreeing.

Either way, we will have a discussion.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Shri KRS Ji,

May I be allowed to give my opinion on the above? The word "caste" evokes strong negative responses not only from those who are lower in its hierarchy but also from those who belong to high castes and see themselves as reformists. Such a strong negative perspective prevents one from recognizing its good aspects which I think is depriving society of the benefits it was meant for.

When one can uncritically embrace psychological tests such as the IQ tests as a means of selection to jobs which measures the lower intelligence such as the analytical and logical thinking, there is lot more reason and right ones too, to select people especially ones requiring responsibility, to select them on the basis of higher intelligence. The problem with the IQ tests and others testing lower intelligence is that, those people are men of details and miss the big picture unless they test high for higher intelligence.

Varna selection is based on one's disposition to spirituality or higher intelligence. Those who are high on this ability generally possess more sublime qualities and more suited for positions requiring one to be responsible and wise. Even though no one wants to retain a rigid caste system, we can make use of the varna system with its original intent by selecting people for occupation especially the important ones based on higher intelligence.

We need men who can look at the big picture and such people at the helm of affairs I think is the panacea for all that afflicts the society. By aping the solutions of the west, we are also inheriting the problems. It is high time we look at the relevant aspects of our own solutions instead of looking outward.

 

[sangom]

MO: As I said in another post of mine, varNa today does exist in a mixed form, the same caste person pratising more than his/her varNa in practical life. I agree that the caste system as practised today is sustained by political motivation and propaganda, but this does not mean that every person today practises his/her caste only for political ambition. The ambition of the common people is reasonable money and comforts, while it is unlimited money and power for the polticians and corporate business people. Ironically, this ambition of the common people makes them want to move lower and lower in the caste ladder, with the cunning politicians motivating it, rather than move up in the religious ladder.

Dear Shri saidevo,

It looks from the above that moving down the caste ladder is moving down the religious ladder, from what you have written. That means "Brahmin Superiority". If that is not what you intend to convey, the post needs to be suitably reworded. In my view, we can consider castes today as compartments but not gradations even in the religious sphere; all are equal, or at least, all can be equal irrespective of the caste to which he/she is born in.

All I have done in my post no.69 is to highlight the fact that it is the West that drives the efforts of reforms in our own caste system with the hidden agenda to destroy Hinduism and make India a Christian country. It is common knowledge that our politicians have fallen for it, so I only cautioned the individual reformists to really know what they seek to do, instead of simply aping and parrotting Western and political influences.

We should be very clear about our notion of what "Hinduism" is. To me any religious persuasion which finds expression in the broad spectrum (!) of beliefs, rites, rituals, divinities - from animal sacrifices at one end to exalted meditation at the other - all will come under Hinduism. And it is my conviction that proselytization or even outright invasion with the sole aim of changing the people of this country to another religion compulsorily, will not succeed; we have the mughal rule of 4 centuries as clear example.

But having said all that I personally feel that the Hindu religion needs lots and lots of reforms still, though I am not religious in the strict sense of the term.

PS:
You said "practicing castes is outlawed", but ironically, just two days back the census woman took the census of our family, with a specific query about our caste and religion, implementing the Government's drive for a caste-based census.

Strangely, I asked the enumerator repeatedly why he was not recording "caste"; he simply wrote "Hindu" since he knew us to be brahmins. He said the caste-wise enumeration has been abandoned and only the SC/ST, OBC and MBC are to be indicated.

 

[sangom]

1) Would it not be a good idea to bring in reforms within hinduism to stop religious conversions ?

Dear Smt HH,

IMO reforms to Hinduism to ensure that religious conversions from the Hindu fold is reduced (I won't say stopped, because our Constituion allows the freedom and individuals may find one religion appeals better than another in which they currently are.) will require as a first step equality of all castes in every aspect of social living. I doubt very much whether the Hindu society is ready for that as a conscious step forward, but such equality might come when people of different castes intermarry and the dividing lines between castes get blurred, in course of time. I am personally not for adopting or promoting icms in an artificial way, but would not oppose it as a purely natural social change.

2) If reforms do happen, don't you think politicalians will be forced to change?

This, as I said above, is to be seen after a long time in the future. Hence I am not able to make any guess now.

Sir, caste as we know it has changed enormously in the past years. Unfortunately, the dharmashastras or hindu theology do not recognize Sanskritization events. To a strict follower of the dharmashastras, the caste system descended unchanged since centuries (or even millenia). However, historically, sanskritization events (varna cross overs) have been recorded. In such a scenario, i would think that it is incorrect to connect all the present day brahmins with the brahmins of the medieval and ancient period who had indulged in violence or other negative things socially.

Nobody will accuse the present day Brahmans of having themselves committed the atrocities of the past. But to the extent the present-day Brahmans even today hold on dearly to the old dharmasastras, they have to carry the stigma; if they, as a community, are able to make a conscious effort of discarding all the outmoded principles which caused the past atrocities, then perhaps they can claim as a group, that they should no longer be blamed for the past events. Here, as we have seen umpteen times in discussions on this subject, neither the Brahmanical mutts, nor the modern-day Brahmanical associations are ready to make even token actions to show to the world their bonafide intentions. That is the difficulty, I feel why Brahmans cannot simply get away with "I did not commit any atrocity" claim and continue in their age-old system of discrimination on one reason or another like ritual purity, polluting etheric vibrations, and what not.

As regards the current caste system, it is quite possible that the system as we know it today did not exist the same way even 200 years back. Apparently, people had changed their profession even in most recent times. Example: My Mother's Grandfather (MG) was born and raised in Srirangam where a part of his family were SSV temple servants doing kainkaryams in the Ranganathaswamy temple. MG got himself an education and moved to Madras. As of today no one in that family is a SSV serving in a temple. In their case, caste (occupation) changed within just 150 years.

Regards.

HH, I need not tell an authority like you that caste in the pure, pristine varna scheme of things went by inherent nature and perhaps people had enough scope to follow one of the four types of duties prescribed and thus be identified as belonging to such-and-such varna. But even by the time of Buddha there are references to Brahmans doing agriculture. I must hasten to add here that these are observations from the Buddhist side; we do not know whether the Brahmin-dominated group accepted them as true Brahmans or as Brahmabandhus (fallen Brahmans) only. Downgradation or demotion in the caste sub-ladder of the varna major order has been happening for a very long time, whereas sanskritization is IMO a phenomenon which started after the advent of the British rule. (Kindly correct me if I am wrong in this.)

So, some people changing their occupation from being temple servants (if they were not priests, they get to be classified as Sudras only, is it not?) to modern, educated service-type of jobs will not IMO change either their varna (because duty and/or inclination has apparently not changed) or caste (because it is by birth).

 

[Nara]

... Clearly, if you are just speaking about bussinesses or how successful TBs are, its not because of DK welcoming them - its because they aspired and did well.

Vivek, you have now changed your statement further to DK not welcoming Brahmins. It started with polarization and hatred towards TBs, next it was TBs not accepted by Tamils and their political class, and now it is DK not welcoming TB. If this is your present argument, then I suggest you take it up with DK, I don't hold a brief for them.

BTW, TBs are doing great not only economically, but socially as well. The Brahmnical maThams are flourishing as never before even though they openly practice caste discrimination, they attract large following both B and NB, heck they are even provided bhandobast by the Dravidian run state government. Your continuing complaints in this regard seem to be borne out of resolute ignorance and paranoia.

I have nothing new to add about the rest of your post as there is nothing new there.

You said in an earlier post that you were not impressed by Chennai, me too, it has grown too unwieldy and chaotic. Traffic and the general lack of civility there is hellish.

Talking about civility, let me narrate something that happened to me a long time ago in Mumbai (Bombay at that time). It was my very first job after graduating and I was new to Mumbai. I was walking down a street and I heard the sound "tse tse" like how one would call out to a dog. Instinctively, I turned around to look what it was. It was a fellow calling out to me, and he asked/demanded in a very rude voice, "time kya" (the kya part I am not sure as I don't know Hindi or Marati, but I knew he was asking for the time). I was taken aback by this rudeness, but as startled as I was, I could not come out with a pithy come-back, but meekly gave him the time and walked away.

Later I learned that this is the usual way Mumbaikers call out to each other to draw attention. I was not very impressed or amused!

But I do admire a lot of Marathis like Phule and Ambedkar.

Cheers!

 

[saidevo]

namaste Smt.HappyHindu.

However, historically, sanskritization events (varna cross overs) have been recorded. In such a scenario, i would think that it is incorrect to connect all the present day brahmins with the brahmins of the medieval and ancient period who had indulged in violence or other negative things socially.

I think you are reiterating this point, which is a sensitive issue. We can say that varNa-sangraha did occur after the MahAbhArata war when Kali Yuga started, as feared by Arjuna, but do you mean to say that every man who is a caste brahmin by birth today, is faced with the possibility of an ancestor who could have been from another varNa? Family lineage is a personal issue and belief, so no one has any right to suggest that such lineage can and must be questioned in every case.

If you are implying that there were sanskritization events on a large scale which corrupted the majority of the brAhmaNa varNa that existed at that time, you need to provide proof, preferably from the Hindu scriptures, rather than from western or intellectual academic papers.

I can understand that brahmins of the initial decades of the last century and earlier did practise untouchability, but surely they did not indulge in violence resulting in physical injury or death to people of the other castes. If as you have said above that "brahmins of the medieval and ancient period ... indulged in violence", I should like you to substantiate your statement.

As to your two questions, here is my take:

1) Would it not be a good idea to bring in reforms within hinduism to stop religious conversions?

The reforms within Hinduism/Hindus I can subscribe to include:

• Equality in social treatment and worldly religious and economic opportunities for people of all castes, with no show of superiority among any caste, including brahmins. I do not mean by this that ICMs (inter-caste marriages) must be encouraged and promoted to achieve equality. What I mean is that such equality can be established within the existing caste structure, whose only requirement is that people of the upper castes must have an open mind and compassionate attitude towards the people of lesser means.

• Non-brahmins, if and when they replace brahmin priests in temples, should be initiated by an upanayanam ceremony, learn and chant gAyatrI mantra at the minimum, and must follow in daily life the same niyama, AchAra and anuShThAna that is required of a brahmin priest, along with the required proficiency in chanting mantras and stotras in Sanskrit, besides being familiar with the hymns and archanAs in Tamizh. Given this kind of life and setting, I am also not averse to non-brahmin and brahmin priests sharing the temple rituals and routines and working together.

• People of the lower castes should never be barred from entering any temple, small or big, new or traditional, although public access within the temple might be decided by tradition.

• Non-brahmins, specially people of the lower castes must be actively involved in community prayers, religious festivals and satsanghas. I would even suggest religious Hindu groups to visit the houses of the lower caste people and teach them shlokas, mantras and stotras and doing simple pujas at home. Hindu religious institutions should encourage such people to build a small temple in their area, with regular visits by religious Hindus to conduct classes and satsangha.

• I understand in religious places like the Ramakrishna Temple, Mylapore, Chennai, bright students at fixed intervals conduct study circles for free, to improve the educational performance of poor students. Religious Hindus should conduct such study circles in temples, involve Hindu school children and teach them our religion and culture, which they miss in their schools.

• Community and public chanting of the Vedas and performance of the Veda yajnas, however, should be done by caste brahmins only, as has been the tradition. This means that non-brahmins cannot demand to be admitted to brahmin veda-pAThashAlas, but there is no objection to non-brahmins starting their own veda-pAThashAlas and learning to chant vedas, or even appointing a willing brahmin teacher in such schools.

*****

2) If reforms do happen, don't you think politicalians will be forced to change?

If every Hindu is conscious, over and above his/her caste, of his/her religion, publicly practising it and opposing all conversion attempts, politicians with vested interests would run for cover!

PS:
Nara has given in another forum, solid examples from Hindu scriptures to prove that varNa is decided only by birth, which is my opinion too.
Hindu Dharma Forums - View Single Post - ...does not exist?
Hindu Dharma Forums - View Single Post - Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Saidevo Ji,

Thank you for responding.

I do not think that democracy, industrialization, nuclear family concepts are owned by the west, even though they had to adopt them because of the rapid changes in their societies necessitated by advancements in science and the resulting industrialization. India can not escape the effects of this world wide phenomenon at all.

So, the result is while there are vestiges of caste system existing, it will only diminish over time. The dharmas allocated to different castes are now gone. So, it has become like a sheep herder tending his flock, without any sheep! It has become meaningless.

I agree with what Sri Sangom Ji said - Hinduism is in need of serious reforms, to fit the modern life and its expectations. If our religion does not change and remains anachronistic, people will abandon it.

Thank you again for responding to my post.

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Sravana Ji,

Thank you for your post.

What works in modern age anywhere in the world is the same. With industrialization and democracy, the requirements are for egalitarianism (so classes live and work together) and meritocracy (right man for the job).

The caste system fails in both of these requirements.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

.....
PS:
Nara has given in another forum, solid examples from Hindu scriptures to prove that varNa is decided only by birth, which is my opinion too.
Hindu Dharma Forums - View Single Post - ...does not exist?
Hindu Dharma Forums - View Single Post - Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

Yes Saidevo, I did a good job didn't I, just kidding .

However, I must reiterate, I am not saying people did not try to change their varna or they did not succeed in changing their varna. My point is, Varna in theory and practice has always been birth-based. Since Brahmanas and Kshatriyas were the overlords of the society, the divvied up sublime and noble qualities among themselves and conceded a mix to Vaishyas, but heaped all the vile qualities upon Shudras. So, it became accepted that Brahmins have all these great qualities like knowledge, patience, etc., and Kshatriyas have all these noble qualities like valor, etc. But, they cannot be Brahmin or Kshatriya without the proper birth, a sort of necessary condition.

I think movement between varnas happened due to changing power structure. Occasionally, during social upheaval, a Shudra Spartacus may rise up and soon he is absorbed as Kshatriya. But these movements occurred due to expediency of the moment and birth as a prerequisite was imposed on the new converts. This way, the orthodoxy can keep insisting on birth and qualities as requirements for each varna, when in reality it is only birth, with occasional movements made possible by mere expediency. Happy can cite such instances from Indian history much better than I can.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Yes Saidevo, I did a good job didn't I, just kidding .

However, I must reiterate, I am not saying people did not try to change their varna or they did not succeed in changing their varna. My point is, Varna in theory and practice has always been birth-based. Since Brahmanas and Kshatriyas were the overlords of the society, the divvied up sublime and noble qualities among themselves and conceded a mix to Vaishyas, but heaped all the vile qualities upon Shudras. So, it became accepted that Brahmins have all these great qualities like knowledge, patience, etc., and Kshatriyas have all these noble qualities like valor, etc. But, they cannot be Brahmin or Kshatriya without the proper birth, a sort of necessary condition.

I think movement between varnas happened due to changing power structure. Occasionally, during social upheaval, a Shudra Spartacus may rise up and soon he is absorbed as Kshatriya. But these movements occurred due to expediency of the moment and birth as a prerequisite was imposed on the new converts. This way, the orthodoxy can keep insisting on birth and qualities as requirements for each varna, when in reality it is only birth, with occasional movements made possible by mere expediency. Happy can cite such instances from Indian history much better than I can.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

This is just to give an example of how the "power divvy" which you refer to, worked:

"யாகங்களின் முக்கியத்துவம் என்ன?...பிராமணர்கள் ஆயுள் முழுவதும் செய்துகொண்டே இருக்கவேண்டிய தொழில் தான் யாகம்...
(What is the significance of yagas?...It is the life-time or life-long occupation of Brahmans.)
நாட்டின் ராஜாவிலிருந்து...அன்று கடையனாக மதிக்கப்பட்ட விவசாய கூலித் தொழிலாளர்கள் வரை அனைவருக்காகவும் பிராமணன் தட்சணை வாங்கிக் கொண்டு யாகம் செய்வான்.
(Brahmans used to perform yagas for everyone from the king down to the then lowly farm worker, getting "dakshiNaa" from them.)
யாகத்தின் போது ராஜாவே, பிரம்மணனை பார்த்து பணிந்து அமர்ந்திருப்பான்.

ஏன் என்றால்..
(The king himself will be seated below the Brahmans and with reverence to them during yagas, because...)

தஸ்மாத் ஸோமராஜானாஃ ப்ராஹ்மணாஃ

(tasmāt somarājānāḥ brāhmaṇāḥ)

"உங்களுக்கெல்லாம் என்று ஒரு ராஜா இருப்பான். அவன் உந்களை கட்டியாண்டு வருவான். ஆனால்...எங்களுக்கு ராஜா இவன் அல்ல. இந்த க்ஷத்ரிய ராஜாவுக்கு நாங்கள் கட்டுப்பட்டவர்கள் அல்ல. நாங்கள் ப்ராமணர்கள். இந்த ராஜாவை விட மேலானவர்கள்.

அதனால் உங்கள் ராஜா எங்களுக்கு கீழே தான். எங்கள் ராஜா ஸோமராஜா தான்" என்று தான் இந்த சின்ன மந்த்ர வாக்கியத்துக்கு அர்த்தம்."

(This short mantra means, "you people have this king who is your lord and controls you, but he is not the king for we Brahmans; we are not bound by his rule or orders: we are brahmans, our king is soma and so this king of yours ranks below us.)

[Excerpt from "Indhu Matham Enge Pogiradhu?" by Agnihothram Ramanuja Thathachariyar, nakkheeran Publications, Chennai-600014, Mar. 2008 edition, p. 222]

Side by side, any one becoming a king, whether from a "certified" kshatriya lineage or from any other varna/caste used to be eager to get the 'approved kshatriya' "certification" from Brahmans and the coronation ceremony has a mantra which goes like, somo rājā rājapatī rājyam asmin yajñe yajamānāya dadātu svāhā (tai. brā. 2.5.7.3). Here the king seeking certification is supposed to have been granted the kingdom (and hence the status of king or kshatriya), by soma who is rājapatī , or overlord of kings, and who is the only recognised king of Brahmans.

In this context it is relevant to note that even for the coronation of Rama, such Brahmin certification has been written into Ramayana, so that lesser mortals aspiring to rule tiny bit of land will try to emulate!!

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Sri., Kunjuppu,

swami,

absolutely. a mouthpiece of a political party commands respect from its followers. same as viduthalai or murasoli. it is meant to pep up party morale. people who belong to other political persuasions or neutrals, will treat such mouth pieces with a grain of salt.. same as you would for murasoli.

Please do not provoke me to make caustic remarks.

today periyar has statues all over U.P. (yes, thanks to our dear brahmin friend Mayawati), Bihar and Delhi.

It will be a revelation to me know that Periyar's statues dot the landscape of U.P.. Can you give a count, at least a rough one?

as an ex card carrying member of Swatantra Party, i am only aware of rajaji's political philosophies.

Now that you say that you were a card carrying member of Swatantra Party, may I put a query (something like being asked in a quiz programme):

Name the politician nominated by DMK for contesting a Rajya Sabha/Lok Sabha seat against whom Swatantra Party made a charge that he was underaged (below 26 years of age at the time of filing nomination) and the matter went to court? (I hope you would give the answer without referring to any source including Wikipedia)

can i also request you to just provide us the URL for rajaji's articles. we do not want to set a precedence for publishing verbatim lengthy articles. in addition, these occupy disc space, which has some cost, and we are all here as free loaders, ie do not pay for the services.

This is nothing compared with many frivolous posts that are being posted daily by a few. (I don't want to name those members here). I am not aware whether Swarajya's archives are available on Internet.

My last one (R's Conservatism - IV) is quite relevant to dust raised in this thread on his advocacy for kula kalvi.

We are not freeloaders. In fact it expends much of energy and time.

With regards,
Swami

 

[SwamiTaBra]

I do not believe, even for a moment, that there was anyone with the proper noun (name) Vyasa; it refers to prolixity or boring verbosity, actually and this is very well borne out by the writings attributed to the so-called Vyasa by tradition. Have you heard of a "Vyasa sutra" just like "panini sutra"? That is the fact behind vyasa concept. The people in those eras were most likely influenced by the greek traditions after Alexander's invasion and inputs by the greeks who remained here and felt impelled to write at great length. This was quite opposite to the rigvedic style where brevity of some sort seems to have been the rule, though not carried to the extremes as by Panini. Hence there must have been a group effort to write very long poetry and instead of displeasing everyone, they must have coined the term "vyasa". The vyasa coming in mahabharata does not address himself as I, mine, to me, etc., outside of direct quotes,does he? The epic always refers to him as vyasa only.

Bhagavatam is quite likely a post-Sankara concoction to launch the krishna of Mahabharata into a celestial orbit with a three-stage rocket, Mahabharata, Harivamsa and then Bhagavata, and off-he goes from an adored king or leader in folk memories to the state of Supreme Almighty!

The credit for classification and codification of vedas might, in the same way, have been a group effort at a later date by which time this idea of "vyasafying" must have appealed to the people who mattered.

[FONT=&quot]Sir,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]More than 30 years ago, when I was still in schools, we (some of the students) had an argument about how we far we should go to believe the tales and epics. A class-mate of mine, Roop Singh Solanki made an observation that there is no guarantee that what is happening today (a reality) will be believed by generations to follow some centuries/millennia later should a terrible cataclysm intervene and destroy all evidences. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What Roop Singh observed then has a universal validity. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My approach is a cautious skepticism on epics and puranas or legends of any culture, including the belief of catholic christians on the immaculate conception of Jesus. [/FONT]

 

[SwamiTaBra]

I do not exactly remember now what I said in the case of Durgadasan's post. If you give the link also I will be able to answer more correctly. But recently I also got a similar advice from someone else that made me start this new thread to say that i am not just talking on the basis of generalities without furnishing any supporting material. That is why I made this remark. If I have made a general remark to Durgadasan that he is not well-read, then I do apologize for it; anyway kindly send me the link.

I don't remember under which thread the exchanges were posted. Though I kept silent as I was not too keen to get into the topic I felt your advice to Durgadasan were quite in order.

There is no need for apology and my considered observation (whether others including the monitor Sri KRS likes it or not ) on Sri Kumar's posts too is based on contents thereof.

Rgds.,
Dear Sri SwamiTaBra, no your comments were offensive as any sensible person would agree. If you make such comments in the future, as a Moderator I will be forced to take appropriate action against you. Looks like simple appeal based on logic on your conduct does not seem to have any effect.

 

[Vivek_V]

Sri Nara - All of these posts skip the main question I asked.

"BTW, TBs are doing great not only economically, but socially as well. The Brahmnical maThams are flourishing as never before even though they openly practice caste discrimination, they attract large following both B and NB, heck they are even provided bhandobast by the Dravidian run state government. Your continuing complaints in this regard seem to be borne out of resolute ignorance and paranoia."

Clearly here too you are speaking of "Dravidian" run state like its a dicotomy with being brahmin. That then asserts my theory that tamilian society has come to indeed see TBs as outsiders.
If only you followed my posts you will see that the issue is hardly about doing well financially or having temples or mutts running.

"Talking about civility, let me narrate something that happened to me a long time ago in Mumbai (Bombay at that time). It was my very first job after graduating and I was new to Mumbai. I was walking down a street and I heard the sound "tse tse" like how one would call out to a dog. Instinctively, I turned around to look what it was. It was a fellow calling out to me, and he asked/demanded in a very rude voice, "time kya" (the kya part I am not sure as I don't know Hindi or Marati, but I knew he was asking for the time). I was taken aback by this rudeness, but as startled as I was, I could not come out with a pithy come-back, but meekly gave him the time and walked away.
Later I learned that this is the usual way Mumbaikers call out to each other to draw attention. I was not very impressed or amused!"

Mumbai is a huge city, there are all sorts of people. But what has this got to do with my question? My question asking as to why you or Sangom support DK has got the both of you to give me reasons, going at lengths to speak of the varna system of history, when it doesn't at all speak of the NATURE of the message of DK in dividing society, in spreading hate.

Has DK potrayed TBs in tamil history correctly, or merely through negativity? Has the idea of "aryan-dravidian" dicotomy given TBs their place as tamilians, which they were for centuries in tamil society?

I do strongly believe now that the sole reason for institutional exile of brahmins was the positions in office they held despite being a minority. While this was the reason for anti-brahminism, the reason brahmins did hold office isn't spoken about. Its because they unlike EVR's own family placed importance on education and kept up with times. Spreading the message of education's importance would have been appealing, instead what seems to appeal to DK supporters here is a hate propaganda.

You either have an idea of what I am talking about and choose to ignore it, or haven't grasped the most important point of my question which is the historical potrayal of brahmins by DK as solely a negative, evil thing. And that view I don't believe is factually correct.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[Vivek_V]

"However, I must reiterate, I am not saying people did not try to change their varna or they did not succeed in changing their varna. My point is, Varna in theory and practice has always been birth-based. Since Brahmanas and Kshatriyas were the overlords of the society, the divvied up sublime and noble qualities among themselves and conceded a mix to Vaishyas, but heaped all the vile qualities upon Shudras. So, it became accepted that Brahmins have all these great qualities like knowledge, patience, etc., and Kshatriyas have all these noble qualities like valor, etc. But, they cannot be Brahmin or Kshatriya without the proper birth, a sort of necessary condition."

The historicity of the varna system and how it worked is a matter of study. You can clearly go on to ignore other meanings given in texts like BG, and refer to those which make you feel justified in having a view against it.

I for one find it odd that past of Indian society is only filled with evil, it tells me that the varna system (especially because its also mentioned so) would have been more flexible based on traits originally, arose out organically and became rigid later on.

In anycase, the history of caste system is stil not a justification for DK's 69% reservation. Its against meritocracy. And reservation on caste-basis is not fighting against casteism either, giving a message of regard to education, of actually moving into the modern era by striving is what was required.
People like A. Raja got seats in the ministry by their caste identity, while they do corruption today. For that matter a person of any caste (upper or lower) who get a job or place because of their caste and not merit may be bad at his job.

Lastly, casteism is more than mutts not allowing people inside, its got to do with what society practices (even today in places were aren't there).

"Occasionally, during social upheaval, a Shudra Spartacus may rise up and soon he is absorbed as Kshatriya. But these movements occurred due to expediency of the moment and birth as a prerequisite was imposed on the new converts. This way, the orthodoxy can keep insisting on birth and qualities as requirements for each varna, when in reality it is only birth, with occasional movements made possible by mere expediency. Happy can cite such instances from Indian history much better than I can."

Social rigidity existed in many societies. There have been efforts in all societies to destroy them even before the modern era, its not like out forefathers had no sense of morality. What is the relevance of quoting the above? You perphaps think its justification for DK's rhetoric or policy on the brahmins?

DK didn't absorb the truth of the times that brahmins were in those offices because they regarded education. EVR's own family didn't find it important that he got educated further.
EVR didn't fight casteism, actual freedom fighters did. EVR only broadened the equation, spreading a hate based on caste - much like the mutts did too.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sri Sravana Ji,

Thank you for your post.

What works in modern age anywhere in the world is the same. With industrialization and democracy, the requirements are for egalitarianism (so classes live and work together) and meritocracy (right man for the job).

The caste system fails in both of these requirements.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Shri KRS Ji,

I do not think the requirements of equality with reference to occupations is satisfied even now, since just as in the past, we need workers at all levels and the one whose talent or qualities fit the job is the right person for the job.

Regarding selecting the right person for the job, it is just not enough if objective assessments are made but whether the assessments used are themselves the right ones.

The varna system got that right and required that only those with higher moral standards would come under higher castes. These have been replaced today by lesser materialistic standards and have let people of lesser character occupy positions at the top. Thus we have corruption established at the top and inevitably at all levels now.

Equality among occupations will not happen as importance of jobs will vary. We have only changed the yardsticks of selection which I think is for the worse.

 

[Vivek_V]

Sri Sangom

Without any disrespect to you, I will have to say that you clearly go to speak just about anything regarding "aryans an dravidians" when you haven't read the genesis of the idea.

This issue which concerns our identity as tamilians and as brahmins, should have been looked upon with due concern and importance by your generation itself. It wasn't.

Unfortunately we come to today, when tamil society has already come to look at brahmins legacy with only stark negativity, and when Nara tries to give kudos to the DK government for having us and our mutts in their "Dravidian run state", even though the mutts openly practice caste discrimination which is so, so typical of evil brahmins. TBs are successful around the world, including TN, what has this got to do with the DK? I really wonder.

And what about casteism practiced otherwise? That too is "brahminism" to Nara and other castes climbing up the ladder built by brahmins, right?

What goes unspoken of is the rhetoric DK used, which seems to get the support of you and many others. In regard to that, was the original question I posed.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Sri Sangom


This issue which concerns our identity as tamilians and as brahmins, should have been looked upon with due concern and importance by your generation itself. It wasn't.

Vivek.

[FONT=&quot]Dear Vivek and Sri Saidevo,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There is no point in labouring to put across your points of view based on facts when they are being repeatedly stonewalled.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]However I hope at least , you both would agree with me that things work from the collective conscious level .[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am not an avid movie watcher; but what is conveyed sometimes by certain movies not getting the attention they deserve have a great value.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I remember to have seen a Tamil movie (though partially) starring Sathiyaraj**. The story line was something like this;[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A Brahmin boy orphaned is given shelter at the home of the protagonist (enacted by Sathiaraj), a meat eating macho Thevar.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The thevar sees that the boy is not served any non-veg food and is protected from the violent company that is dependent on him. Also the Thevar reminds his wife about the annual function exclusively for Brahmins (the upakarma) commonly called Avani avittam. He arranges the performance of avani avittam for the boy under his care.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Though the boy was willing to go by the mores of the Thevar family, the protagonist was determined to keep the “purity” of the boy intact.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In yet another Tamil movie in a hilarious interlude a comedian – I think it is Koundamani-- interjects to say that at least one “Iyer” is required to bring sanity in villages.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]From my over 20 years of exposure and even living (at many stages) in the Tamil hinterlands until recently, I find that respect the Brahmins/Brahmins way of living still holding in the consciousness of NBs is the testimony to the values the society still cherish, notwithstanding the hostility of the “Dravidian” parties in better part of last century.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rgds.,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]** It is interesting to note that actor Sathiaraj claims himself to be a devoted follower of Periyar and has potrayed him in a biographical movie with actress Kushboo as his wife.[/FONT]

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Sri Sravana Ji,

Thank you for your post.

What works in modern age anywhere in the world is the same. With industrialization and democracy, the requirements are for egalitarianism (so classes live and work together) and meritocracy (right man for the job).

The caste system fails in both of these requirements.

Regards,
KRS

Egalitarianism is the Holy Grail, a chimera. You are talking as if the democracy and industrialisation as obtained now is ensuring or assuring summum bonum, not achieved or achievable by alternate models!

Long live this democracy and this gigantic industrial model....

Rgds.,

 

[Vivek_V]

Thanks SwamiTaBra,

The speak here is like our past was devoid of all morality when every society thorugh history has had its times of rigidity and inequality, while at the same time times of rising against such inequality. It is interesting how some here find it so easy to believe that our forefathers had absolutely no sense of morality in treating others, or that their culture was nothing other than casteism.

Meritocracy has been thrown in the gutters with the new play of caste cards from politicos which seems so appealing to people here who go on to post lengthily about caste system history and ficticious accounts of "aryans and dravidians" to justify the DK policy, without coming to see that brahmins in good part played a role in taking India to the modern era due to their imperative to educate themselves.

Education today is like a profit bussiness, with quality education going up to many lakhs of ruppees which only a few well-to-do can afford.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Smt HH,

IMO reforms to Hinduism to ensure that religious conversions from the Hindu fold is reduced (I won't say stopped, because our Constituion allows the freedom and individuals may find one religion appeals better than another in which they currently are.) will require as a first step equality of all castes in every aspect of social living. I doubt very much whether the Hindu society is ready for that as a conscious step forward, but such equality might come when people of different castes intermarry and the dividing lines between castes get blurred, in course of time. I am personally not for adopting or promoting icms in an artificial way, but would not oppose it as a purely natural social change.

Dear Sir,

I would still keep marriages completely and totally out of this scenario. I feel marriage is like a game of chance / fate / gamble, irrespective of whether it is love marriage, arranged marriage, inter-caste or same-caste -- only God knows how the marriage and life will turn out to be.

I feel caste lines are getting blurred due to modernization. There are two outcomes of modernization: 1) Religion can grow to become irrelevant in a modern society; and/or 2) People like to see equality in religion.

Apparently the relevance of shastras in a 'secular modern india' was explored by some political leaders. Atal Bihari Vajpayee had said “Our constitution is the latest Smrithi and we will abide by it and by no other Smrithi” (source: Discovering the Rigveda, by GNS Raghavan, p.139).

However, as you say, i too doubt if hindu society as a whole is capable of making that giant step forward as of now. Hopefully, brahmins will bring in the requisite changes over time. But i feel it will take some time for changes to percolate to all levels. Here again, we must recognize that a Nair in a village may not consider an Ezhava his equal. Such mindsets cannot change overnight. It will take time, maybe some couple of years, for that to happen.

This, as I said above, is to be seen after a long time in the future. Hence I am not able to make any guess now.

Nobody will accuse the present day Brahmans of having themselves committed the atrocities of the past. But to the extent the present-day Brahmans even today hold on dearly to the old dharmasastras, they have to carry the stigma; if they, as a community, are able to make a conscious effort of discarding all the outmoded principles which caused the past atrocities, then perhaps they can claim as a group, that they should no longer be blamed for the past events. Here, as we have seen umpteen times in discussions on this subject, neither the Brahmanical mutts, nor the modern-day Brahmanical associations are ready to make even token actions to show to the world their bonafide intentions. That is the difficulty, I feel why Brahmans cannot simply get away with "I did not commit any atrocity" claim and continue in their age-old system of discrimination on one reason or another like ritual purity, polluting etheric vibrations, and what not.

HH, I need not tell an authority like you that caste in the pure, pristine varna scheme of things went by inherent nature and perhaps people had enough scope to follow one of the four types of duties prescribed and thus be identified as belonging to such-and-such varna. But even by the time of Buddha there are references to Brahmans doing agriculture. I must hasten to add here that these are observations from the Buddhist side; we do not know whether the Brahmin-dominated group accepted them as true Brahmans or as Brahmabandhus (fallen Brahmans) only. Downgradation or demotion in the caste sub-ladder of the varna major order has been happening for a very long time, whereas sanskritization is IMO a phenomenon which started after the advent of the British rule. (Kindly correct me if I am wrong in this.)

So, some people changing their occupation from being temple servants (if they were not priests, they get to be classified as Sudras only, is it not?) to modern, educated service-type of jobs will not IMO change either their varna (because duty and/or inclination has apparently not changed) or caste (because it is by birth).

Sir reg the last para above, Nara sir has summed up the SSVs very beautifully here: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/3182-sri-vaishnavam-21.html#post42384 As for caste claims, that family group claims to have descended from one son or grandson of one particular Malavaraya who took to a religious life and settled in Srirangam after converting into a SSV. I searched for details and found an inscription which mentions that this particular Malavaraya belonged to ‘Kashyapa gotra, Apastamba Sutra, Yajur Shakha’. [There are unauthenticated claims that he belonged to the Malavanadu sect of Brihacharanams which seems baseless and untrue though for now].

Apparently the SSV grouping was created by Pillai Lokacharier and brought together people who wished to see themselves equal in the eyes of the Lord irrespective of whatever caste they belonged to. We can say SSVs were a 'varna-less' grouping. Am therefore not comfortable using varna terms for those who wished to live beyond or outside the varna-terms.

I suspect that a good many erstwhile nayaks might have originated from the roles of SSV and Pandaram temple servants (Ex: the Jaffna kingdom). However, this part for now is just speculation only.

In any case when it comes to Caste System, i feel it is inappropriate to lay the onus completely on Brahmins. Even people like Vikrama Rajasinha (the last kandy nayak) ruled his kingdom as per the laws of Manusmrithi. Hence I feel the onus of eradicating casteism must be taken up by all the so-called ‘upper-caste’ people.

Also, when we speak of varna in south india, possibly we may need to take the following into consideration:

1) Varnashrama of the dharmashastras applied within the boundries of Aryavarta; and not to regions that fell outside those boundaries. [Please share your thots on this statement].

2) It would be very hard to fit the southern Indian society into 4 varna categories considering the fact that the southie society was mainly just B and NB. All the so-called warrior clans were merely those who made claims of being ‘kshatriyas’ or ‘vaishyas’. I feel trouble in colonial period mainly came bcoz the NBs themselves wanted to claim and divide (their own selves as well as) each other into 3 varnas – kshatriya, vaishya and shudra.

For varna claims, we may take into consideration various analytical writings on the absence of the Kshatriya and Vaishya varnas in South India (esp from google books). And also the fact that various tribal chieftains and/or hinduized rajas claimed kshatriya-hood at various periods of time (ex: the tribal rajas of orissa like the gajapathis claimed kshatriya-hood in the times around AD 1400 (source: ‘Paradigms of dissent and protest’ by BK Mallik, p.50-65).

Prior to that, the dharmashastras are ofcourse the best historical sources. Verses from Manusmrithi 10.43 and 10.44 mention that “in consequence of the omission of the sacred rites, and of their not consulting Brahmanas, the following Kshatriyas have gradually sunk in this world to the condition of Shudras -- the Paundrakas, the Chodas, the Dravidas, the Kambogas, the Yavanas, the Sakas, the Paradas, the Pahlavas, the Kinas, the Kiratas, and the Daradas”.

I can speculate of only one reason why these people omitted brahmanical rites – they possibly had converted to Jains / Buddhists.

Anyways, if major powers like Cholas, Pallavas, etc had become Shudras, then practically most (if not all) of the southindian warrior clans would have been shudra. And upon becoming hinduized, they must have assumed identities like ‘Kashyapa gotra, Apastamba Sutra, Yajur Shakha’.

Regards.

 

[Vivek_V]

Sow. Happyhindu

When we read parts of texts like Manu Smriti 10.43, 44, how can we consider the references to say "Dravidas" as all of south Indians? Or its meaning at the time it was written? Or find whether what was said of them was a fact written for its time (era) or something universal? This is what I mean when I say that Hindu tradition is eclectic, vast and we can consider anything as true - leaving debate/reform open and still very much orthodox. This is also what I meant when I told Sangom "Manu Smriti is not the alpha and omega of Hindu tradition, nor of brahmins".

People born Ezhava like Narayana Guru learnt Advaita, Vedas and the Upanishads not having to come across ideas of "evil Brahminism" like many find here. How so?

I find the view that south Indian society would have been divided into brahmins and sudras hard to comprehend. Reading EVR's own life story, brahmins visited his house to speak on the scriptures, if they were the orthodoxy of the time, would they have visited if they considered him "Sudra"?

I am glad you believe that the onus of casteism shouldn't be placed solely on brahmins. But tamil society has come to see it only that way - which is why "brahminism". Till today, even though Nara denies it TBs and their history is reduced to only casteism, only about them being an oppressor. This is what I don't ascribe to.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[sravna]

Egalitarianism is the Holy Grail, a chimera. You are talking as if the democracy and industrialisation as obtained now is ensuring or assuring summum bonum, not achieved or achievable by alternate models!

Long live this democracy and this gigantic industrial model....

Rgds.,

The fact is democracy has little to do with meritocracy and in establishing egalitarianism in society. So also with industrialization. In democracy, merit is compromised at the highest levels where representatives get elected on the basis of popularity and in industrialization, the compromise is on egalitarianism and so an industrialized country practicing democracy in reality compromises both.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

The fact is democracy has little to do with meritocracy and in establishing egalitarianism in society. So also with industrialization. In democracy, merit is compromised at the highest levels where representatives get elected on the basis of popularity and in industrialization, the compromise is on egalitarianism and so an industrialized country practicing democracy in reality compromises both.

Brilliant analysis.

Let me add: industrialised countries exploit the less fortunate ones. See how the sub-saharan African countries are being exploited or mineral riches and yet the peoples of those countries die like fire-flies. China is the latest in the list of countries to join the exploiters' list. So where is the egalitarianism for the African?

All the crocodile tears for lack of democracy in Africa.

Rgds.,

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Thanks SwamiTaBra,

Education today is like a profit bussiness, with quality education going up to many lakhs of ruppees which only a few well-to-do can afford.

Regards,
Vivek.

I know a relative of mine a doctor who has paid Rs.18 lacs for medical seat for his daughter in one of the medical colleges run by an Union minister who won on DMK ticket. For that matter there is very little quality education that can be gained from such outfits.

It cannot be called a normal business now, it is a sanctioned loot.

Remember a few months back the Chief of Medical Council of India one Dr. Desai was arrested for possessing cash of several hundred of crores .....

Rgds.,

 

[happyhindu]

Sow. Happyhindu

When we read parts of texts like Manu Smriti 10.43, 44, how can we consider the references to say "Dravidas" as all of south Indians? Or its meaning at the time it was written? Or find whether what was said of them was a fact written for its time (era) or something universal? This is what I mean when I say that Hindu tradition is eclectic, vast and we can consider anything as true - leaving debate/reform open and still very much orthodox. This is also what I meant when I told Sangom "Manu Smriti is not the alpha and omega of Hindu tradition, nor of brahmins".

Nowhere in my post above have i said that Dravidas should be considerd as ALL of south indians.

Yet again, if you want to make comments to Sangom Sir, do it on a post addressed to him, not on a post addressed to me.

People born Ezhava like Narayana Guru learnt Advaita, Vedas and the Upanishads not having to come across ideas of "evil Brahminism" like many find here. How so?

Was Narayana Guru offering ritualistic homam sacrifices? From my cursory reading it appears that Chattampi Swami initiated Narayana Guru into Yoga, not Vedas. Moreover Narayana Guru's teacher, Chattampi Swami wrote a critique titled Vedadhikara Nirupanam rejecting the authority of the Vedas.

I find the view that south Indian society would have been divided into brahmins and sudras hard to comprehend. Reading EVR's own life story, brahmins visited his house to speak on the scriptures, if they were the orthodoxy of the time, would they have visited if they considered him "Sudra"?

I do agree that Vaishnavite scholars used to offer discourses at EVR's house. But Vaishnavism as a philosophy had eschewed casteism. Am told if one becomes a bhagavata then his caste is not taken into consideration. Since EVR's father was a Vaishnavite, it was natural to expect discourses being given in his house.

Also, personally, i do not think the varna system applies to the southern indian society.

I am glad you believe that the onus of casteism shouldn't be placed solely on brahmins. But tamil society has come to see it only that way - which is why "brahminism". Till today, even though Nara denies it TBs and their history is reduced to only casteism, only about them being an oppressor. This is what I don't ascribe to.

Vivek, it is true that the word brahmanism has come to mean casteism (casteism and brahmanism are two interchangable words meaning the same thing). It is probably so because the dharmashastras were created by brahmins.

I feel the tamil society is far too intelligent to place the onus of casteism on brahmins alone. However, many people have rejected casteism; and after having done so, it is natural for folks to expect religious equality as the next step; which unfortunately the orthodoxy has not woken up to.

Anyways, i wud like to see south-indians giving up their fake claims of being kshatriyas and vaishyas to begin with. I feel the present generation is far more egalitarian in this respect than the old generaions.

Do note there are mainly 2 people who do not want the caste system to go away:
1) Politcians
2) Missionaries.

If caste system goes away, the whole missionary business will go bust. Especially commissions like the "Joshua Project" will be badly affected becoz they rely fully upon the caste system to convert "low-castes".

Regards.