Time For Brahmins To Change At Least in Marriages

[XLR8R]

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Dr. Kalman Heller's statement was made after analysing the data collected from a country in which he dwells. That may be correct or nearer to truth for the society in the country from which random samples are taken and analysed.

That survey result need not hold good for Tamil Brahmins, whose culture is diametrically different. We can not come to a conclusion by comparing incomparable.

True. I only gave those statistics because of the mention of "western" influence and American divorces. As time passes (and is the growing trend), however, these influences will slowly seep into our society (already seen today). Thus, this will become more and more applicable.

In either case, there is nothing about their culture that is inherently better or worse than ours. As such, taken over a mean, it would probably apply to any reasonably developed society.

 

[renuka]

Debate turning towards X rate! :shocked:

Dear RR ji,

Why run? Why are you so afraid of anything about the human body and its conjugal activities? After all the point brought up by the member was not X rated in any way.It was just to highlight an opinion.

BTW if I get a chance to meet you in India..I would bring along a Vatsyayana's Purana and a tablet downloaded with latest hit of Ms Leone and place it on a tray with flowers and betel leaves and betel nuts and fall on your feet and present it to you!LOL

 

[renuka]

1) Survival is not dependent on physical features, it is dependent on intellect. To ignore that means eventual extinction (why did dinosaurs go away?)..

As far as I know the Cockroach is one of the longest surviving species Even though the latest studies say the Cockroaches have their own personalities and differ from each other..I am yet to see one holding a Phd!LOL

Survival is not entirely dependent on intellect along although its role can not be denied either.

Survival is dependent on instinct,practicality,being able bodied,being able to secure a mate by physical attributes ,survival skills,suitable climate and not to mention food and resources.

Remember the story of the Pandit and the boatman? The Pandit was talking about his knowledge and saying that the boatman wasted his life without being educated and finally the Pandit drowned when the boat capsized cos he did not know swimming.

Survival of species is a very complex yet simple phenomenon..it is multidimensional yet not a Mission Impossible....cos otherwise only the cockroach and Tom Cruise would have survived and all humans would have been extinct.

BTW why did dinosaurs become extinct?

 

[krish44]

XLR8R posts are interesting.

1. Advocating marriage at a later age for both boys and girls-I wonder if it was his personal compulsion that he married late and he found out that it worked for him

admirably. A few years before marriage to live it up and a lifetime of happiness with one mature person late. In large families with girls to be married off first ,many

boys married late after crossing thirty. I and my brothers did the same .One thing that happens in late marriages irrespective of whom you marry, The ways

,habits,living styles of both are set and both have to accept each other as they are without prospect of easy changes.Another issue is the choice of mate narrows if it is an

arranged marriage as better ones marry earlier. So left over boys and girls have to marry or stay unmarried for a lifetime

2.All this talk of liberalised thinking overlooking caste,subcaste ,religion comes out of a desire to expand the circle of available matches to be a more inclusive and larger one.

ie say any mate is OK if the person has the right qualities [irrespective of academic education ,job]. So it is a no basis approach for choosing a mate except the person should

belong to the other sex and take what appears best out of what is available .Even the regional preferances or country of stay also ceases to be a drawback due to countrywide and global exposure.

3. so it is no rules or specs for marriage.Easiest way,- Find a mate on the roads or subway ,,In case attracted ,if ones heart skips a beat ,propose and get accepted

. Simple. Why not try?

 

[rishikesan]

Dear /parents and all young girls All, With all the above analysis,one cannot , I repeat One cannot make either the Parents or the young women to seriously consider as detrimental to themselves & to their families, the glaring Aspects will pull them down & Marriage would obviously delayed & Married life can never be smooth, leading to even DIVORCES ?
You may regret for everything you have done as per your Dictum & you & your Parents would only be responsible .
At this juncture the Advice would be 'Stop such Topics & watch for a Year or Two, whether at all the Parents & the over grown girls ( I call them as women/ no more Girls ) in that event no one would come to their rescue & even daughters would start blaming with their parents & those Parents may become old & may find it difficult to be of any help,realize the predicament to be faced by them.
Timely marriage/ &begetting at least
I invite response from parents , on behalf of their daughters, so that this forum could know their minds & I am prepared to Inter-act with a few of them, if they are inclined ? My wife/ an Astrologer can interact if they desire ? If members as usual object it , let the Mr. Praveen give his opinion ?
Rishikesan ( A. Srinivasan)

 

[XLR8R]

As far as I know the Cockroach is one of the longest surviving species Even though the latest studies say the Cockroaches have their own personalities and differ from each other..I am yet to see one holding a Phd!LOL

Whoever said that holding a Ph.D. makes you smarter or even more qualified than someone who doesn't (note: I am a Ph.D. scholar)?

instinct,practicality,being able bodied,being able to secure a mate by physical attributes ,survival skills,suitable climate and not to mention food and resources.

Your brain needs to work hard to achieve all of those which have been put in bold. So half of these depend on one thing: mental alacrity

The Pandit was talking about his knowledge and saying that the boatman wasted his life without being educated and finally the Pandit drowned when the boat capsized cos he did not know swimming.

And there are other situations wherein the boatman would have died and the Pandit would have lived. Tales are always specific to the context and narrative.

I wonder if it was his personal compulsion that he married late and he found out that it worked for him

As I may have mentioned earlier on this forum, I am in my early twenties, and not yet married. If I am able to speak with a certain level of coherence on such matters, there are only two reasons: 1) My parents, who were both in their 30s when I was born (meaning, they are now nearing 60, essentially encouraging me to gain greater levels of responsibility and understanding at a younger age) and 2) The influence I gained from living in close knit Jain/Marwari community in Gujarat, which taught me a lot about familial and community-oriented lifestyle.

Do you know that these communities actually envy and respect ours for our focus on careers and late marriages, and the freedom and education we give our men and women? And here we are, discussing of this as a bad thing....I guess grass is always greener?

A few years before marriage to live it up and a lifetime of happiness with one mature person late.

Hmm, not necessarily to live it up, but to get things in order.

One thing that happens in late marriages irrespective of whom you marry, The ways

,habits,living styles of both are set and both have to accept each other as they are without prospect of easy changes

Yes, but no false expectations on either end. And, when you are young, you expect more and accept less. Acceptance is key to happiness....

Another issue is the choice of mate narrows if it is an

arranged marriage as better ones marry earlier.

Actually, it is not a BIG issue, because basically people marry as per their expectations and choice. Obviously elder ones are looking for something different from younger ones.

religion comes out of a desire to expand the circle of available matches to be a more inclusive and larger one.

I don't see a fault in that. Jain is Jain, Marwari is Marwari and Brahmin is Brahmin, regional differences are subservient to the common culture. When you are in a minority of a population you should grow together, not as clusters of separate communities.

Even the regional preferances or country of stay also ceases to be a drawback due to countrywide and global exposure.

Yes, because given current scenario, migration is inevitable and occurs everywhere. There are 3rd generation settled TB families (for example) in places as far off as Varanasi (relative to TN). Now 2nd generation TBs in USA, Europe, etc. - it's right to be inclusive and not exclusive, because that is how you are able to assimilate and/or integrate. Your culture and tradition will never be lost if you and your partner respect each other and where you come from.

Easiest way,- Find a mate on the roads or subway ,,In case attracted ,if ones heart skips a beat ,propose and get accepted

. Simple. Why not try?

Everything is worth a TRY. But of course, it is not simple. Anyone who thinks so is fooling himself/herself. This too takes time, you just don't develop feelings for someone out of thin air and few days/minutes (if that happens, it's called lust...).

 

[rishikesan]

Dear XLR, You have written exhaustively so many things I feel that each one is proving to be excellent as Analysts. With lot of wealth of Knowledge not able to crystalize the problem , leading to a common , fairly acceptable to these modern women who have overgrown for Marriage & care Two Hoots to everyone else , including their own Parents. I even challenge the parents would politely accept what I try to bring out ?
Now, coming to the main point , which I have stressed,is the AGE/ should not be DILUTES & allow a Mam & woman to marry at 35 Plus, without any difference in Age,it can be taken as a CASE STUDY & as the year goes-by what small & Big problems both mentally/ psychologically/ relationships/ when they get blessed by One/ Two children Etc Etc All to be got recorded even by the Lady . I request you all having said everything why not give a Gap of ONE year HOLIDAY for such Topics & involve such youths to-be married women / Men to take the Centre Stage & let us watch their Fullest Views. Then We would become Wiser ?

A.Srinivasan

 

[XLR8R]

even daughters would start blaming with their parents & those Parents may become old & may find it difficult to be of any help,realize the predicament to be faced by them.

They should not blame the parents. Parents becoming old is something that children should understand from the start. When to marry, whom to marry and how to marry is something the child/grown-up child should decide on his/her own.

 

[XLR8R]

I request you all having said everything why not give a Gap of ONE year HOLIDAY for such Topics & involve such youths to-be married women / Men to take the Centre Stage & let us watch their Fullest Views. Then We would become Wiser ?

True, the forum would benefit from a younger population's point of view on such matters. I support this.

 

[krish44]

Dear XLR8R

Ref your post #81

!. Other communities may respect us for stress on education but respect highly unlikely for late marriages.What make you think we give freedom to our children ? we

only give our children the freedom to do what we want. All this talk of freedom is immature. We are all bound in some way to our family and society at large. After

marriage you are stuck in a relationship with one more person which will make you long for freedom if any you think you had before marriage. Nothing wrong in

discussing anything here. You will get the combined wisdom of so many here which will give you more options you can ever imagine in life.If your parents were in

, thirties when they were married, they would have had a tough time supporting you when they are in sixties and in case your career has not taken off and you are not married. Though I also got

married when I was in thirtees, I was clear that I should be free from responsibilities before I was 65 yrs. I educated my kids and got them married off before they

were 25yrs. If at all it could be called freedom ,it was for my freedom to do what I liked after the age of 65 yrs that I settled my children . Senior persons like to live

long on their own terms .lol


2. You think falsely that you are putting things in order by not living it up . My honest suggestion to you is live it up when you are young. Burn candle at both ends . You

are young only once in life. Enjoy all the good things life has to offer.[ Things include some humans of other sex also.lol].You can never put things in order ever in your

life. After marriage,it will get more disorderly.

3, As for acceptance of each other, In all marriages ,there is no alternative to acceptance of each other irrespective of when you marry.The other option ,break if

possible and run is a time consuming harsh option. After sometime in all marriages most come to the stable state after a few desperate attempts to change each other

and not succeeding. It does not make a difference when you marry. When you are young ,I agree one tends to be more optimistic to try to change the way the partner

thinks. After you are older , One gets cynical and let sleeping dogs lie and not rock the boat.

3We are in the same frequency regarding choice of mates from all communities ,religion, location, Good luck...in your endeavours to go global insearch of your partner.

4.I am a believer in finding mates in a flash [like lightning] , It is pretty simple to develop feelings if you really try. You can psyche yourself into believing you love the

girl on the road/subway. She might even reciprocate. There is no love for any youngster ,for that matter even an older person without lust. All that platonic feellng business

is all crap. Pl do not go around calling girls amma like many and feel platonic.lol

 

[sangom]

True, the forum would benefit from a younger population's point of view on such matters. I support this.

The "naked" truth is that in this Forum, most of us who actively participate in these discussions are mostly 60+, or even 70+ and 80+! I can count only one or two members who may be less than 60 or 50, and even these members cannot strictly be called "youth".

I have tried, in the past, to enthuse some of the young people in my circle of relatives and acquaintances, but uniformly, they say that they find these discusions disgusting and of no earthly or heavenly use to them! (இஹ பர பிரயோஜனம் இல்லை is what my nephew's son told me after watching this site for a few days, as per his statement!).

In the present case, the question is about our Tabra girls, very highly educated in India and/or abroad, adamantly setting their own criteria for the boy whom they will choose to marry and, consequently, the Tabra boys with "ambi"-an upbringing, mediocre academic qualifications and not-so-good emoluments, getting completely filtered out of the marriage market, etc.

In this context I will like to furnish the example of a Tabra who is a kOTeeSwara (has wealth of many crores of rupees, in fact). He was firm that his daughters would not study beyond M.Sc., but his sons could study as much and as long as they want, in India or abroad, with or without scholarship, etc. We were all surprised by this but in the end he got his daughters married off to equally rich boys and one of his sons has taken over the management of all his assets and the partition deed has also been finalized which will become operative only on the demise of the old man.

This was what I meant in my post #27. If, however, we are going by 'gender equality' for education, then we also have to be prepared to suffer its consequences. When the Bhagavan said in the Gita "...karmanyevaadhikaaraste...etc.," that included this also! If we believe, like one of our learned members said, differentiating between sons and daughters will cause women to become uneducated idiots so that they can marry male half educated idiots who are available in plenty, then the the women who will be fully educated will have to go on waiting till their chosen prince arrives and proposes!

 

[mkrishna100]

The "naked" truth is that in this Forum, most of us who actively participate in these discussions are mostly 60+, or even 70+ and 80+! I can count only one or two members who may be less than 60 or 50, and even these members cannot strictly be called "youth".

Thank God I am not in any of the above Categories LOL

 

[krish44]

Thank God I am not in any of the above Categories LOL

Sorry boss , you cannot belong to this class until you are older. Only childrens films for you until then .lol

 

[mkrishna100]

I expect Sangomji is aware that the Owner of this forum Mr.Praveen also does not come under the catgeory mentioned by him . Sangomji must be careful regarding the age comments ,otherwise this forum will have to be renamed SCTB forum i.e Senior Citizens Tamil Brahmin Forum LOL

 

[sangom]

I expect Sangomji is aware that the Owner of this forum Mr.Praveen also does not come under the catgeory mentioned by him . Sangomji must be careful regarding the age comments ,otherwise this forum will have to be renamed SCTB forum i.e Senior Citizens Tamil Brahmin Forum LOL

I am aware that Shri Praveen comes under the <50 category.

 

[a-TB]

The "naked" truth is that in this Forum, most of us who actively participate in these discussions are mostly 60+, or even 70+ and 80+! I can count only one or two members who may be less than 60 or 50, and even these members cannot strictly be called "youth".

I have tried, in the past, to enthuse some of the young people in my circle of relatives and acquaintances, but uniformly, they say that they find these discusions disgusting and of no earthly or heavenly use to them! (இஹ பர பிரயோஜனம் இல்லை is what my nephew's son told me after watching this site for a few days, as per his statement!).

In the present case, the question is about our Tabra girls, very highly educated in India and/or abroad, adamantly setting their own criteria for the boy whom they will choose to marry and, consequently, the Tabra boys with "ambi"-an upbringing, mediocre academic qualifications and not-so-good emoluments, getting completely filtered out of the marriage market, etc.

In this context I will like to furnish the example of a Tabra who is a kOTeeSwara (has wealth of many crores of rupees, in fact). He was firm that his daughters would not study beyond M.Sc., but his sons could study as much and as long as they want, in India or abroad, with or without scholarship, etc. We were all surprised by this but in the end he got his daughters married off to equally rich boys and one of his sons has taken over the management of all his assets and the partition deed has also been finalized which will become operative only on the demise of the old man.

This was what I meant in my post #27. If, however, we are going by 'gender equality' for education, then we also have to be prepared to suffer its consequences. When the Bhagavan said in the Gita "...karmanyevaadhikaaraste...etc.," that included this also! If we believe, like one of our learned members said, differentiating between sons and daughters will cause women to become uneducated idiots so that they can marry male half educated idiots who are available in plenty, then the the women who will be fully educated will have to go on waiting till their chosen prince arrives and proposes!

This message is right on!
Many younger people of TB origin (below 30) lose interest quickly in the topics or the nature of discussions.
Do not have any suggestions though. Teasing grand Pa and all could become boring fast LoL

 

[tbs]

I am aware that Shri Praveen comes under the <50 category.

hi

he is still NEWLY MARRIED category....

 

[Raj Rajamani]

My response to your following are given under each of them:

If some one of the pair dies after Reception before marriage, what is the status of either of them?kes place the
This logic is flawed. The official engagement takes place the vening before the wedding.So what happens in this case!

The habit of clapping of hands after Mangalya Dharana, it is prohibited.
​I have never seen this happen in a Brahmin wedding I have artiness sofa and I am over 70 years old.
The habit of shaking hands with the couple after Mangalya Dharana before Aseervatha is a Taboo.
​This is not a habit and there is a scientific reason behind it. We all have positive and negative vibrations and that is why Hindu cutom encourages Namaste to shaking hands or hugging each other when greeting. By the same token, it essential to ensure bad vibrations are not transmitted to the newly weds.

 

[auh]

This message is right on!
Many younger people of TB origin (below 30) lose interest quickly in the topics or the nature of discussions.
Do not have any suggestions though. Teasing grand Pa and all could become boring fast LoL

Perhaps what the "elders" arrive at after a debate of attrition, is perceived very early and easily by the youth, and hence the boredom?

 

[krish44]

This forum should attract the youth in large numbers .

For that to be possible , seniors should cherish and respect their views and thoughts.

We could recall we were young once and we also passed thru the stages they are passing thru.

We also thought that the existing social order and family systems at that time were atrocious.

We tried violating many community rules and made some compromises accepting some reluctantly.

Every generation keeping with the needs of the times they live in retain some and reject many what is handed down by the older generations.

Ultimately what is really essential and for general good and convenience shall prevail.Others will be thrown way into dustbin with no regrets.

As a senior citizen, at a personal level, I prefer this forum as my children keep away from it . I reciprocate by keeping away from facebook ,whats app ,twitter they frequent.

both enjoy our privacy and freedom to post.

 

[rishikesan]

Group ing the members 1) upto 30 2) from 40 to 50 3) from 50 to 60 4) 60 to 70 and 50 the rest which include me ( 82 years ) I can always give out my unbiased / objective suggestions For the real progress of youngsters waiting to be married.
Some of you should think of an Action oriented Plan keeping in mind all the arguments / 0pinions / floated till date,& cocentrate on ways & means to ensure unity & unified thinking 10 like fixing Max age for Marriage 2) simplify Marriages with less pomp 3) advice the couple to do their own plan of life, sooner after marriage & be 4) of usefulness to our community in any manner & determine to help the Needy on the day of Marriage
A.Srinivasan

 

[krish44]

Most youngsters will go to those who help them when they are in distress regarding education,job or marriage .

Help sought is not monetory in most cases.

We can have distress corner to listen to those who are facing any issue and become counsellors and give whatever help they require.

If they realise they will gain by approaching , they might approach.

For that we should not be judgemental but be pragmatic and help in finding a way out of their predicament.

How many would be ready to stick our neck out and help one girl in our forum who faced an issue marrying a mate of her choice?

all told her to listen to her parents and shrugged off.

We are hopelessly outdated and are not in tune with thinking of our youngsters and what are their aspirations.

We can be of no use to them.

we are doing them a favour by leaving them alone perhaps.

 

[XLR8R]

What make you think we give freedom to our children ? we

only give our children the freedom to do what we want

To allow your child to become educated to the highest degree possible is freedom in itself. Perhaps you have not seen the levels of restrictions people face in sections of North India.

After marriage you are stuck in a relationship with one more person which will make you long for freedom if any you think you had before marriage

Grass is always greener

That being said, I am not sure why "stuck" is the word being used here. If the decision was apt then it should be harmonious. Would you really rather be with someone else over your spouse?

they would have had a tough time supporting you when they are in sixties and in case your career has not taken off and you are not married.

Yes and no, but it does depend. For example, savings are sufficient to at least feed me. But then, maybe not enough to fund my MS in US. On the flip side, me being aware of such things means I need to work harder and try harder. This also meant I gained more experience because I had to hurry a little and take certain risks before peers of my age did.

You think falsely that you are putting things in order by not living it up . My honest suggestion to you is live it up when you are young. Burn candle at both ends . You

are young only once in life. Enjoy all the good things life has to offer.[ Things include some humans of other sex also.lol].You can never put things in order ever in your

life. After marriage,it will get more disorderly.

Interesting. Will keep that in mind.

4.I am a believer in finding mates in a flash [like lightning] , It is pretty simple to develop feelings if you really try. You can psyche yourself into believing you love the

girl on the road/subway. She might even reciprocate. There is no love for any youngster ,for that matter even an older person without lust

I agree. But it's dangerous to jump headfirst into such things. I prefer a slower approach.

We also thought that the existing social order and family systems at that time were atrocious.

We tried violating many community rules and made some compromises accepting some reluctantly.

Every generation keeping with the needs of the times they live in retain some and reject many what is handed down by the older generations.

Ultimately what is really essential and for general good and convenience shall prevail.

Totally agree sir. At the end of the day everyone makes their personal balance between traditionalism and modernism (not sure if appropriate words).

As a senior citizen, at a personal level, I prefer this forum as my children keep away from it .

I joined this forum to know about my heritage, my community and my culture, as I was largely brought up in a predominantly North Indian atmosphere (even my parents are not born in south India) and was thus unaware of many nuances of the community. Obviously, many of the things I have stated in this thread are very general and not really specific to TBs, but at the end of the day we do need to survive in the end.

I have learnt much, thanks to grace of God, from my travels across the nation as I grew older, and from forums like this.

For that we should not be judgemental but be pragmatic and help in finding a way out of their predicament.

This is what I realised a few years ago, that in order to progress, especially as a minority, we are to be pragmatic and adapt with the times.

We are hopelessly outdated and are not in tune with thinking of our youngsters and what are their aspirations.

No sir, your experience matters still in many places and ways. It's just that times have changed somewhat, but not totally. But yes, youngsters ought to discuss issues more with their parents/community elders. I do find this aspect somewhat lacking in modern era. It's like cleaning the house - yes it's boring, yes it takes time and yes you could NOT worry about it and let someone else handle it, but you can't really beat doing the work yourself and seeing it done to your satisfaction.....

 

[yesmohan]

I could not understand why some discussion on younger vs senior emanated.
Is it for the reason that some discussion by seniors are so elaborate and run to several 'paras' with a lot of references which all,otherwise could have been explained in crisp manner.

 

[krish44]

Yesmohan ji

It is not often when we get an oppurtunity to discuss anything with youngsters. So we tend to be make the transactions last longer by writing more than required.lol

I liked the posts of XLR8R and felt I should interact more . Thats all . There is no issue of young vs the old.