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Teaching Morals Of Ramayana To Kids

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Sir
I think you are not respectful towards me .
Expressing my opinion in any thread is not an intrusion. I have as much right as you do in this forum.
I am expressing my opinions just like anybody else. You are welcome to believe in what you like. But others also have right to their opinions.
I have a high regard for opinion from members like Shri Sangom, Shri Prasad. In the post no #23, I don’t think point no.1 is appropriate.
About 15 yrs back also had similar view thinking about superiority of everything that is Indian. But as I got exposed more more to other cultures, I can visualise evolving cultures all over the world. No doubt Indian culture also evolving very well. For example rational thinking people like Shri Raju, Shri Sangom, Shri Raghy and Sri Prasad.

You can have your opinion by counter-arguing me, but with that link, you made my post look comical.

Your video completely distracted the topic. I am sick and took pain and time to type and post. [Many times, I posted links associated but irrelevant , as separate threads].

You are not hurt when sangom claims the Scion of Bharatam, Sri Rama as an alien and Valmiki like vaishnavas and our sages copied from Greek Epics, to portray Rama as hero, Prasad sir, claims that Puranas are a later fabrications. But, you regard them high?

Even Upanishads praise the puranas and advise us to listen to puranas as a daily routine. History, linguistic, philology, science are research based subjects. Seems like, Sangom
like people's opinions are more valued than research based facts.

Sangom/Prasad, in the name of rationality, give some random opinions, motivating our devolving natures. Your understanding of cultures evolving is true for the west, but for indian, the cultures have devolved since 2000 years, coping the west. West will soon become more rational, logical, sAttikas and will rule India soon. Atleast that way, Indians will learn their
own heritage back again, but by then global warming will take over.
 
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Wow! Are you contradicitng your own advaita ?

Dear Shri Govinda,

I wrote that in a lighter vein, to answer Smt. Renuka's question "what is not God?". My view about God, which does not strictly follow traditional advaita but is very similar, has not changed.

Thank you for carefully reading my posts.


 
Oops! you are wrong about history and civilizations too !

Beginning of Ancient Greece was about 500 BC, which was earlier a cenfedaration of Indo-european (sanskrit/Slavic speaking ) tribes who have migrated from northern asia to europe to norway and down south to Greece/Italy. The Attic/Atheneas/Ionians led the greece to wage a war against all these tribes who also allied some tribes (phyrgians/Bhrges(Bhrigu clan), the Trojans (the hittites) on the western Anatolia/Turkey. The latter were also supported by the 2000 year old goddess, Mahishasura like worshipping , early writers (linear B) of the Crete Islands in the south of Greece. The story of Helen may be a fabrication on the characters with the real war happening, as the Early Greeks were taking over the area.

Homer's was a great inspiration for Greek Writing , Art, and literature, only becos the myths were already a mix of all past tribes. Whereas, the hittites/hurrians (with both sanskrit, persian, sumerian mixed language - Turvisa,wilusia, larshiya, purushuttam,parana etc.) had a early writing and Cretians had linear A writing (with phonetics), Newly forming Turkish (leaving out sanskrit 'sh' - truva, wiluva, lariya, ahuwa etc.) Greek only made it (troy, illiad, lycia).

Sumerians, in the south of Turkey/mesopotomia/Persian gulf were the earliest advanced civilizations (indo-dravidian) even around 6000BC, founders of agriculture and writing, whose heirs were the Mittani (indo-aryans) (whose capital was Arappa) and later the hittites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni

Then, the whole area was under Greeks, Romans, then the Hebrew/semitic and then the Arabic.

Coming to our scriptural reference, the descendents of Yayati , who lived west of India were once vedic-aryans, some of them stayed away and wre considered mlechAs/barbaric. All knowledge, philosophy, laws (Smirits) and writing originated in some form or other around central/West India. Read here the descendants of Yayati (that of Chandra Vamshi) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yayati

The one branch of lineage of Anu, were the Sibi Chakravarthi, whose descendants were the kadai-ezhu vallals. who later formed the chola dyansties. These may have been the heirs of sumerians. The Solar dyansty, Ishvaku ruled the India from long time, from Central Asia throughout India and the Lunar Dynasties were kept at bay (west Punjab) who might have been the origin of western turkik/arabic cultures ;)

Dear Shri Govinda,

I thank you very much for the above historic information. Since my knowledge of European or Greek history is close to zero, I accept what you have written as researched facts. But is there any problem in believing that our vedic people living in Punjab and up to the Doab (Ganga-Yamuna) thought of longish poetry about heroic deeds only after they came into contact with the invading Greeks who came with Alexander in the third century B.C.? You say that ancient Greece started about 500 B.C., some 200 years earlier to this.

Kindly enlighten.
 
But, pity, Indians are least educated on their own texts and other history/culture texts.

There are two factions:

1. These people think everything comes from West and westerners are the noble Aryans. This faction, like Sangom/Prasad , though doesnot want
to be proud of Rama being Indian, feels contented by calling him a foreigner, Aryan. But, they are proud of claiming West is the
origin of all knowledge, tech, wisdom. That way, Sangom like faction, is indirectly proud of the West Aryans like Rama. But, to their dismay,
all the Vishnu avatars/Bhaktas were from Ishwaku and are natively Indian, only their saivite counterparts and the lunar lineage (chera/chola)
[except yadus/krishna) and the western indians, are the later migrants to India/south India.

Dear Shri Govinda,

There seems to be some confusion for you about my views on Rama. In order to make it further clear, I wish to submit the following for your kind info. :—

1. I have not said that Rama was not Indian nor that he is a foreigner of any sort. What I said was that there must have been some public memory about a hero by name Rama and his story (whether historical or purely mythical) must have pecolated down through generations, among the common populace as distinguished from the group which considered itself to be Aryan, belonging to the Ikshvaaku clan, etc.

2. When knowledge about very long poetic accounts of heros which were already there in Greek literary scene, came to be known to the Sanskrit scholars of North India, after the advent of Alexander and his army very close to the Magadha empire, possibly some able and genius-type sanskrit poet must have put the Raamakathaa or story of Rama into sanskrit verses in the anushtubh meter which had not been used much in the Braahmana texts and aaranyakas, subsequent to the times in which rigveda (and other vedas) was composed.

3. Since you have taken pains to research about ancient histories, may I bring to the kind notice of the readers that there was a king by name Tushratta in the Mitanni dynasty and evidence is there to show that the Mitanni's had some notion aboout the vedic deities, whom they also probably revered. There was also a kingdom by name Ishuwa there in those days. Hence there is a probability that this Rama story had originated from some real life incidents in the Mesopotamian areas and had spread eastwards up to Punjab and the vedic aryans. I had not thought about this angle but, ironically, your post has now made my Rama look more like a west aryan hero!

2. There are these other factions, who have no knowledge of either Indian or foreign, but claims India is the best, the superpower etc.
These people cannot give concrete evidences or references. I am o.k with these. These are just ignorant, but not blind, and are not mis-leading
anyone either.

These factions are acceptable to you, obviously, because they have no ideas to give which sort of shakes your faith system in Narayana and his vaak, I presume and so you have no quarrel with them ;)

You can have your opinion by counter-arguing me, but with that link, you made my post look comical.

Your video completely distracted the topic. I am sick and took pain and time to type and post. [Many times, I posted links associated but irrelevant , as separate threads].

You are not hurt when sangom claims the Scion of Bharatam, Sri Rama as an alien and Valmiki like vaishnavas and our sages copied from Greek Epics, to portray Rama as hero, Prasad sir, claims that Puranas are a later fabrications. But, you regard them high?

Shri Govinda,

You see sir, this thread itself is about how to answer the many inconvenient questions which today's kids ask when someone tries to push down their throats, the age old wisdom which is fully reflected in posts by you and a few others. The world is changing and what worked 100 or 50 years ago does not work with today's children. They not only want answers but they insist on "convincing" answers and are not prepared to accept superhuman/super natural and mystic answers any more. I very much doubt whether a rishi named vaalmeeki lived at all; I feel it is a pen-name by some very able poet, but not a rishi.

About copying from Greek epics, I have already explained my position above. It does not go with a person of your intelligence and knowledge to twist my views and give a colour which will suit your group to mount an assault. This of course you may do if you are guided by Vaali vadham and the righteousness of it.

Even Upanishads praise the puranas and advise us to listen to puranas as a daily routine. History, linguistic, philology, science are research based subjects. Seems like, Sangom like people's opinions are more valued than research based facts.

Opinion from people like myself are also based on study of our scriptures and looking at them from a new and different perspective, whereas your opinions are the moss-covered rocks which have existed for nearly 1000 years (Ramanuja's time). But we should remember that Ramanuja viewed scriptures in a different perspective and did not hold on to time-honoured views. The way of the world is constant change.

Sangom/Prasad, in the name of rationality, give some random opinions, motivating our devolving natures. Your understanding of cultures evolving is true for the west, but for indian, the cultures have devolved since 2000 years, coping the west. West will soon become more rational, logical, sAttikas and will rule India soon. Atleast that way, Indians will learn their own heritage back again, but by then global warming will take over.
Whether our opinions cater to the "devolving" nature or 'evolving' nature, only time can tell. But one thing is clear and that is that you can only grasp on to some old opinions, beliefs and value systems for which you have been successfully brainwashed and have no independent thinking capacity. The west is already rational and logical, imo; if your predictions come true then you will have cause to celebrate but I will take that also as part of the "constant change".
 
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Mr. Govinda,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
Having said that, let me clarify my view as you are one of my "friends" on this site.
These people think everything comes from West and westerners are the noble Aryans. This faction, like Sangom/Prasad , though doesnot want
to be proud of Rama being Indian, feels contented by calling him a foreigner, Aryan.

I am not as gracious as Mr. Sangom, but I am thrilled to be bracketed with person of his knowledge.
Show me any of my post where I called Rama a foreigner.
You do not understand the simple fact that there was no country called "India" before 1947. So how can anyone be foreigner to India before 1947. Indian history by the epics is a mystery at best. So start thinking with a clear mind.
Please read the post from others with open mind, and then analyse them, you may agree or disagree with them, but to perpetuate your ignorance do not lie.
 
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.

Avatharas are a Vaishnavite concept. Neither Siva nor Devi have Avtharas. Forms. Yes. But Avatharas . No.

Valmiki envisaged Rama only as an ideal King. But Rama was made GOD later for propagation of Vaishnavism.

Thats a very interesting view. Come to think of it, the dasa avatar etc are completely Vaishanava!

We Hindus like to get any excuse to make everyone Gods. Kings, princes etc! I doubt the Buddha ever dreamt in a million years that he would be God for some people later one either! So many holy men today are also known as gods or god incarnate to their followers. I guess since Saguna Brahman is completely upto our liking to choose, anything and everything can have a fair chance to become one. Only our mind is the limit :)
 
According to Western scholars Rigveda, the oldest of the Vedas, was composed roughly between 1700 and 1100 BCE. But Indian Indologists date it nearer to 2500 BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_period

Traditionally, the Ramayana is attributed to Valmiki, regarded as India's first poet. The Indian tradition is unanimous in its agreement that the poem is the work of a single poet, the sage Valmiki, a contemporary of Rama and a peripheral actor in the drama. The story's original version in Sanskrit is known as Valmiki Ramayana, dating to approximately the 5th to 4th century B.C. While it is often viewed as a primarily devotional text, the Vaishnava elements appear to be later accretions possibly dating to the 2nd century BC or later. The main body of the narrative lacks statements of Rama's divinity, and identifications of Rama with Vishnu are rare and subdued even in the later parts of the text.

Ramayana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
In Guru Granth Sahib, there is description of the spiritual Ramayana which is actual subject of Guru Granth Sahib, in which Ravan is Ego, Seeta is Budhi(Intellect), Raam is Inner Soul and Laxman is Mann (Attention, Mind).

Epic history is mystery at best, so the poet has taken liberties with the facts.
 
In Guru Granth Sahib, there is description of the spiritual Ramayana which is actual subject of Guru Granth Sahib, in which Ravan is Ego, Seeta is Budhi(Intellect), Raam is Inner Soul and Laxman is Mann (Attention, Mind).

Epic history is mystery at best, so the poet has taken liberties with the facts.

There is a Ramayana known as Adhyatma Ramayana extolling the spiritual virtues of the story of Ramayana. It is popular in Bengal. Sri Ramkrishna used to refer to it often.

Adhyatma Ramayana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Dear Shri Govinda,

I thank you very much for the above historic information. Since my knowledge of European or Greek history is close to zero, I accept what you have written as researched facts. But is there any problem in believing that our vedic people living in Punjab and up to the Doab (Ganga-Yamuna) thought of longish poetry about heroic deeds only after they came into contact with the invading Greeks who came with Alexander in the third century B.C.? You say that ancient Greece started about 500 B.C., some 200 years earlier to this.

Kindly enlighten.

Thanks for the likes. Vedic people lived around Indian north borders, which resulted in exploration to the west. Also, there were some of these tribes kept at
bay, being considered as less-vedic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meluhha). All these western histories(artifacts) are around 6000BC. Indians/Sumerians had greater trade relations/colonised the Iran/Turkey.

Greek invasion is a reverse invasion to western exploration of Indo-Aryans. These greek notes, writings are based on short expeditions/battles/earsays/deficient in linguistics. Similar to the British, their understanding of the world is limited to their wells! The british explorers/colonies could not date us beyond 2000BC, becos that that would conflict their Religion and God's creation of 6000 years old earth. The writings of Huen-suang can be more reliable than these western ku-drushtis. Herodotus' writings (1000BC) are his own myths about India. India digged gold from the pits, rivers etc. using magic, we must have had gold-mines (known metallurgy) by then. These guys were late in the fray, where India had pretty much all knowledge, writing, exploration done.

Our vedas are composed of chandhas/metres. There are no stories or fabrications, but simply messages (lineages, philosophy, astronomy etc.).
The Vedas themselves have also the details of these early kings [Anu, divodasa etc], but their complete details/lineages are separated out as puraanas by Parasara/Vyasa (3000BC). Puranas give the lineage of 25 generations from mid-century (AD), dwaraka carbon-dated to 5000BC. Rama was some 100 generations before Krishna [Rama was said to have lived 10000 years and Ravana for 100,000 years]. Puranas are a complete history book. Western historians are breaking their heads with the cuneiform writings of middle civilizations, they should infact relate to our puranaic lineages of kings esp. ChandraVamshis, they would get more clues.

Greeks had so much fascination for India and its Glory. You might have read the Silk Route hisotry. Al-Beruni(Arabic), chinese travellers, greeks , sultanates just longed to visit India, for its wisdom, spices, skill and sewing, medicine/science.

Greek Heliodorus (113 BCE) from Taxila (Alexander period) writes on the stone pillar the time it was erected and the fact that he had converted to Vaishnavism, or the worship of Lord Vishnu. The inscription on the column, as published in the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, says:
"This Garuda column of Vasudeva (Vishnu), the god of gods, was erected here by Heliodorus, a worshiper of Vishnu, the son of Dion, and an inhabitant of Taxila, who came as Greek ambassador from the Great King Antialkidas to King Kasiputra Bhagabhadra, the Savior, then reigning prosperously in the fourteenth year of his kingship. Three important precepts when practiced lead to heaven: self-restraint, charity, conscientiousness."

Acc. to our Puranas, the priestly sages have never seemed to have praised any kings, but the kings listened to them fearing their wisdom/powers. Dasaratha had to oblige the sages, and Rama brothers were mentored by the sages. Krishna accepted the curse of Vyasa and other sages to his disrespectful sons. So, Ramayana, Mahabhrata are the own realizations of the sages/rishis, and has got nothing to do with any hero worship. The Haihaya kings (West Indus, Yadu Vamshi) just ravaged the central india creating five kingdoms, and they retrieved all the possessions of all the locals. Then, Parashuram had to intervene, marry these Brahmans with the local kings, and formed a stronger ally to fight them.

The hero worship may have started with the later gupta/chera/chola kings, the kshatriyas overpowered the Advisors. There are many instances of south indian poets/logicians who refused to praise the tamil kings, and got punished or exiled. Hero worship may been independently present with any non-sAttvika people, possessing power, be it greek or persian or indian (JArasandha, sishupala, kamsa, ample numbers already existed during Krishna period). This marked the turn of spiritual India.
 
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In Guru Granth Sahib, there is description of the spiritual Ramayana which is actual subject of Guru Granth Sahib, in which Ravan is Ego, Seeta is Budhi(Intellect), Raam is Inner Soul and Laxman is Mann (Attention, Mind).

Epic history is mystery at best, so the poet has taken liberties with the facts.

Metaphors, comparisons are o.k for easy understanding, as long as it does not twist the objective or philosophy behind it.
 
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Thats a very interesting view. Come to think of it, the dasa avatar etc are completely Vaishanava!

We Hindus like to get any excuse to make everyone Gods. Kings, princes etc! I doubt the Buddha ever dreamt in a million years that he would be God for some people later one either! So many holy men today are also known as gods or god incarnate to their followers. I guess since Saguna Brahman is completely upto our liking to choose, anything and everything can have a fair chance to become one. Only our mind is the limit :)

It is the indians in the name of humility and acceptance or tolerance to other ideas/faiths/cultures, consider all gods as Gods and Prophets. But, these
days, they indians are mocked by the christians and muslims for saying 'All gods are same' !

Buddha is not consdiered a Vishnu avatar, Buddhist philoopshy is so contradictory to Vedic understanding of Reality/Brahman. Buddhism, Jaisnism are considered athiestic/non-vedic schools. For that matter, VAishnavic scholaras challenged the ideas of Bhaskara, Sankara.

VAishnava scholars would have just remained silent, rather than get a XXXXXXXXXXXXXX labels. But, they wouldnt be so gullible to claim everything their own.
 
According to Western scholars Rigveda, the oldest of the Vedas, was composed roughly between 1700 and 1100 BCE. But Indian Indologists date it nearer to 2500 BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_period
Ramayana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, What?

The earth was only 6000 years old for the west, so does for the British Empire that ruled India. How could British date us beyond 4000BC., that would contradict their gods creation?

Even the scientists came up with a million year earth, 10 million years earth, Holmes disgreed and continued his research on radio-metric dating. Was vedic age of earth, the reference of him??

Professor Arthur Holmes (1895-1965) geologist, professor at the University of Durham. He writes regarding the age of the earth in his great book, The Age of Earth (1913) as follows: "Long before it became a scientific aspiration to estimate the age of the earth, many elaborate systems of the world chronology had been devised by the sages of antiquity. The most remarkable of these occult time-scales is that of the ancient Hindus, whose astonishing concept of the Earth's duration has been traced back to Manusmriti, a sacred book."


Now, ask all the scientists to re-date all the British dates on India.


 
Dear Shri Govinda,

You see sir, this thread itself is about how to answer the many inconvenient questions which today's kids ask when someone tries to push down their throats, the age old wisdom which is fully reflected in posts by you and a few others. The world is changing and what worked 100 or 50 years ago does not work with today's children. They not only want answers but they insist on "convincing" answers and are not prepared to accept superhuman/super natural and mystic answers any more.

This is the gross mis-understanding about this generation kids. These kids are more interested in Superman, cat-man, Spider man, and the violent and fiction rich characters of
Beyblades, Ninja, Avatars etc. The vasanAs would not vanish even for a millenium years. They dont want answers, they just want violence and in the name of Good killing the evil!
They need more fiction, imagination. The western kids, liked the Little Krishna movie more than their veggie tales and sesame-street!
 
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Mr. Govinda, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Having said that, let me clarify my view as you are one of my "friends" on this site. Please read the post from others with open mind, and then analyse them, you may agree or disagree with them, but to perpetuate your ignorance do not lie.
I blamed you only for claiming 'Puranas are a later fabrication'. Seems like you missed the post #26
 
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I blamed you only for claiming 'Puranas are a later fabrication'. Seems like you missed the post #26

Show me a post of mine where I say those words.
I have said that History of our epics is a mystery, but have never dated them. I never said they were fabrication as they are stories. So please get your facts right. You are so confused about my post how can we trust your judgement about any other epics.
 
Shri Govinda,

Opinion from people like myself are also based on study of our scriptures and looking at them from a new and different perspective, whereas your opinions are the moss-covered rocks which have existed for nearly 1000 years (Ramanuja's time). But we should remember that Ramanuja viewed scriptures in a different perspective and did not hold on to time-honoured views. The way of the world is constant change.

Sri Sangom,

Ramanujas's works are purely philosophical in nature. He wrote Sri-Bhasya on the Brahma-sutras, Gita Bhasya on the Bhagavd Gita, 3 gadyams on the Principle (nature of Brahman), means (surrender) and Goal/attainment of Moksha, Vedanta-Sangraha/deepa/sAra on Upanishads, Nitya-grantham (daily rotuine).

It is only the popular nirguna-doctrined Sankara, eulogised all deities in many poetical versions - Govinda(Bhaja-Govindam), Sahasranamams on 5 dieties, slokas, astakams, lahari,stotram,pujas, ratna-mAlika(Q&A) etc..
 
It is the indians in the name of humility and acceptance or tolerance to other ideas/faiths/cultures, consider all gods as Gods and Prophets. But, these
days, they indians are mocked by the christians and muslims for saying 'All gods are same' !

Buddha is not consdiered a Vishnu avatar, Buddhist philoopshy is so contradictory to Vedic understanding of Reality/Brahman. Buddhism, Jaisnism are considered athiestic/non-vedic schools. For that matter, VAishnavic scholaras challenged the ideas of Bhaskara, Sankara.

VAishnava scholars would have just remained silent, rather than get a XXXXXXXXXXXXXX labels. But, they wouldnt be so gullible to claim everything their own.


Dear Govinda ji,

Don't remove Lord Buddha from the Dasa Avatar please...I like Him lots.

For me he is an incarnation of Lord Buddha.

You know out here in most Vishnu temples..they have replaced Lord Buddha with Balarama.
It's so disheartening to see that.
Here there is a Vishnu temple and a Buddha temple side by side..that's why when I go to the temple I make it a point to go to both and always tell God "what an irony..You are divorced from the next temple"

That's why I like Puttaparthi cos there is a nice statue of Lord Buddha along with the rest of the Dashavatars.

I am not writing this from any historical point of view but just from my heart.

I do not feel that the Avatar concept is a Vaishnava concept alone.

The word Avatar means to descend..so when any form as in Saguna Brahma manifests that can be called an Avatar.

Many forms of Divinity have manifested from time to time.

To me personally I feel it is no use actually even debating who existed or who did not or who is a fiction of imagination or who is not.

To me I would really prefer not to actually divide and rule when it comes to forms of Divinity.

Everything is Brahman..there is nothing outside of Brahman.

That's why sometimes debates takes us no where..well doesn't the saying go

Bhajo Govindam Bhajo Govindam
Samprapte Sannihite Kale
Nahi Nahi Rakshatin Dukren Karane.
 
Hi Amirtha,

seems like, you dont want to learn anything new, and bypassed reading my post and the references.

Simply, want to criticize the idea behind my post.

You can give relevant references and counter-argue, but cannot just disclaim the whole piece of hsitory or research.

We are not laughing stock here who spend our efforts, time and knowledge for the benefit of others.

Be respectful!!

Dont intrude serious discussions and sincere writings!

Sri. Govinda, Greetings.

Post #21 was hilarious. That has nothing to do with your messages. You are inclined to have a very serious debate which is very close to argument. But that satire video ( from Indians!) has nothing to do with your messages. If at all, that actually releases the tension in the thread.

But your outburst in post #24 is uncalled for. You are simply judgemental about a fellow member when you said she didn't want to learn anything new.

If you don't like a post, kindly learn to ignore that message.

Alright! You hold Ramayana as a sacred text, those events are historical. If I did something very similar to what Rama did, would you accept that since it as done by Rama? I can think of few instances where he could have acted more like a gentleman.

Nobody is acting Ramayana verbatim. But There seems to be somany arguments defending Ramayana!

Once when I was having a casual conversation, I casually mentioned Rama used to consume meat and drink alcohol since it was allowed for Kshatriyas.... I almost got beaten up! I went home, took a copy of Sundara Kanda and read the verses to prove my point. Still I was treated like a traitor for a long time!

Ramayana and Mahabharata are stories. If someone considers them as history, so be it. But that doesn't call for "serious discussions" ( read - arguments). More over, you don't have to talk ill about a fellow member for that.

Cheers!
 
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Alright! You hold Ramayana as a sacred text, those events are historical.

If I did something very similar to what Rama did, would you accept that since it as done by Rama?

I can think of few instances where he could have acted more like a gentleman. Nobody is acting Ramayana verbatim. But There seems to be somany arguments defending Ramayana! Cheers!

This attests that my post#20 was the only pro-india/pro-vedic argument (in the whole thread).

As Parasurama, he had to defeat only KirtayvirayaArjuan and his sons. As Rama, only Ravana.

As Krishna, a whole lot of mandUs.

All of us are acting Ravana verbatim, it is billions this time. So Rama stayed away from appearance.
 
This is the gross mis-understanding about this generation kids. These kids are more interested in Superman, cat-man, Spider man, and the violent and fiction rich characters of
Beyblades, Ninja, Avatars etc. The vasanAs would not vanish even for a millenium years. They dont want answers, they just want violence and in the name of Good killing the evil!
They need more fiction, imagination. The western kids, liked the Little Krishna movie more than their veggie tales and sesame-street!


Dear Shri Govinda,

Present generation of kids like
Superman, cat-man, Spider man, and the violent and fiction rich characters of Beyblades, Ninja, Avatars etc. Of course we have no supporting evidence for this statement but I accept it. Kids like these comics (and not necessarily the character/s referred) because there is no compulsion on them to believe that Superman, cat-man, Spider man, and the violent and Beyblades, Ninja, Avatars etc., are godly and good (and that whatever these characters do or fail to do, are the real Dharma or duty, etc.) while some other characters in each of these is/are compulsorily to be believed as bad characters and all their actions/inactions are to be taken for granted as bad and adhaarmic. This is what distinguishes these comics from our religious indoctrination of our kids with our scriptures, imho. The children have the freedom to like/dislike any character in these comics.

It is significant that the western kids alone liked Little Krishna movie, again because those kids are under no obligation to accept Krishna as anything more than a mere character. They may or may not like that character, and instead love that ollippicchan friend of Krishna more!



 
Dear Sangom Sir, you have said this in post #12

What I meant to convey was that familiarity with the epic style was obtained by some sanskrit scholar who definitely had some inspiration ( to compose in the new, shorter metre, such a huge work) and this scholar wrote what probably was a story in popular memory (like most folk tales) about the life and adventures of one Aryan prince Rama, into an epic poem. I have also no case that Vaalmeeki copied anything from any Greek books. Simply put, this first hindu epic was inspired by the epic poetry genre of the Greeks, imho.

And in post#29

What I said was that there must have been some public memory about a hero by name Rama and his story (whether historical or purely mythical) must have pecolated down through generations, among the common populace as distinguished from the group which considered itself to be Aryan, belonging to the Ikshvaaku clan, etc.When knowledge about very long poetic accounts of heros which were already there in Greek literary scene, came to be known to the Sanskrit scholars of North India, after the advent of Alexander and his army very close to the Magadha empire, possibly some able and genius-type sanskrit poet must have put the Raamakathaa or story of Rama into sanskrit verses in the anushtubh meter which had not been used much in the Braahmana texts and aaranyakas, subsequent to the times in which rigveda (and other vedas) was composed. Opinion from people like myself are also based on study of our scriptures and looking at them from a new and different perspective.

Your interpretation of the data available is that:
1. There existed a king or a chieftain by name Rama in the northern part of Bharathvarsha (I am avoiding the word India because it will rile up my friend Prasad) and his story is the same as Ramayana and was a part of the folklore of those times.
2. Valmiki was some energetic poet who had a taste for writing poetry and was inspired by the Greek tradition set in motion by Homer with his Iliyad and Odyssy in Hexameter verse. So our friend Valmiki wrote this epic Ramayana influenced by Greeks. So it is just a story of a mortal.
3. In support of this we have speculation that Homer lived in 850 BC. Alexander came to India in 340 BC and our friend Valmiki lived some time after all this and had the benefit of knowledge of existence of Iliyad and Odyssy and had the inspiration to pen his epic in the short but complex anushtup metre in Sanskrit.

Dear Sir, This is one line of argument about the epic which looks at the epic from the angle of the beginingless and endless continum called TIME to the exclusion of every thing else that is associated with the epic. So I start with the question ‘what if’. Yes.What if the epic was indeed a story borrowed from the folklore? What if the grammatical anushtup metre verse form had its inspiration from the Hexameter verse form of ancient Greece? Though I have differences about your interpretation of the origin of the epic, its being a mirror image of Iliyad or Odyssy in its form etc., I am not questioning you about that now. I am leaving it aside. I take something else in your interpretation which is altogether different. You are trying to reduce the epic Ramayana to a mere chronicle/a folk lore whereas it is for millions of Indians the story of how God came to earth as an avatar and lived here.





whereas your opinions are the moss-covered rocks which have existed for nearly 1000 years (Ramanuja's time). But we should remember that Ramanuja viewed scriptures in a different perspective and did not hold on to time-honoured views.

The moss covered rocks that you have dismissed with disdain pertains to the faith of millions of people in Bharathvarsh. As different from the God idea that exists in other faiths, the Hindu faith had always been responding to the needs of the faithfull followers with many personal Godheads.
(1) You can be a very well educated and well informed individual delving deep into its vedas and upanishads and indulging in study and discussion of the brain teasing but empty advaita
(2) You can be a Rshi who has given up interest in worldly possessions and is engaging in deep meditation to ‘realize’.
(3)You may not be that fortunate and happen to be an ordinary Hindu who has a need to have some tangible form of the God idea so that he can pray and ask for forgivence of all his misdeeds (because ethics and morals are common for every one)
(4)You may be an unlettered labourer who subsists but who at the end of the day remembers that he has some surplus to spend and wants to imitate his master and so looks to a God to whom he can offer a cigar and a bottle of Toddy(because they are the luxuries that he can think of)

All the above four category of people have an opportunity to have a Godhead of their liking in the Hindu religion. It is here that Rama the hero of the Epic Ramayana comes in. Whether there existed a Rama in flesh and blood at any time on this earth is of no consequence to the Hindus who worship him as God. When there was a need to have the God idea represented in anthropomorphic form there was no better way than to take a leaf from the folk lore and adopt its best hero with all kalyana gunas as the God. The Icon Rama with bow and arrow may not be very important but the idea he represents is important. He is the God idea for millions in the anthropomorphic form which is easy to understand, comprehend and deal with. This form and many other forms –including the rarefied form of nirguna brahmam-are the representation of God and that transformed Ramayana from just another Iliyad or Odyssey to a religious itihasa. I can give you here the complete idea I have tried to convey, by these simple tamil words. While explaining what the five forms of the God are Pillailokacharyar says:

பூகத ஜலம் போலே அந்தர்யாமித்துவம்; ஆவரண ஜலம்போலே பரத்துவம்; பாற்கடல் போலே வியூகம்; பெருக்காறு போலே விபவம்; அதிலே தேங்கின மடுக்கள் போலே அர்ச்சாவதாரம்.

I can further elaborate on this with his own words but the post will become very lengthy. If our erudite Sangom Sir, keeps ruminating about the universal consciousness spoken about by Sankara while refusing to accept that there can be a God, my friend Vedabhothakam Arulsingh keeps thinking about the significance of the three entities spoken about in Bible –the Father , the Son and the Holy Ghost, and my another friend Khursheed Ahmed keeps wondering secretly what his God will look like. I am free from all this pain. I worship Rama my personal God with full faith. I am at peace with myself. This is not a peace I got in exchange for any compromise. With all the intellect that God has given me I have understood the complexity of the problem well and yet has chosen the பெருக்காற்றில் தேங்கிய மடுவான அர்ச்சாவதாரம் deliberately as it makes excellent sense to me. And so dear Sir, all that is said in Ramayana makes sense too to me. It is not moss accumulated over millennia. Ramanuja, by the way, did not discard all the time-honored views. It was not as if he threw overboard everything which was time-honored and made path-breaking new discovery of a religion. It appears you have a penchant for getting recruited to anything new just because it is new.

Whether our opinions cater to the "devolving" nature or 'evolving' nature, only time can tell. But one thing is clear and that is that you can only grasp on to some old opinions, beliefs and value systems for which you have been successfully brainwashed and have no independent thinking capacity. The west is already rational and logical, imo

Again TIME. It is very convenient. As if a beauty of yesterday can not remain a beauty today because of TIME. Opinions and views have to be condemned for their being OLD (a derivative of TIME). The west is indeed rational and logical and that is why they had pogroms, apartheid and Hiroshima and Nagasaaki inflicted on the humanity. They are rational that is why they have suicide cults killing themselves or have KKK killing others for silly reasons of color of skin. They are very logical and that is why the briefcase with the button is carried by their chieftains wherever they go-it needs just a push of the button to let loose thermo nuclear and other WMDs on “enemies”. Please understand that west is just a direction and the people who live there are having all the weaknesses that the people in East south and north have. I have personal experience dealing with some of those from the “west” with hare brains who were stupidity personified.

And my friend Prasad said in #30

You do not understand the simple fact that there was no country called "India" before 1947. So how can anyone be foreigner to India before 1947. Indian history by the epics is a mystery at best. So start thinking with a clear mind.

We are, I think, talking here about India which was once the geographical area called Bharathvarsh.

Cheers.
 
Mr. Raju Sir,
I have great respect for your knowledge and you present it very eloquently. I do not say it lightly.
You have a misconception that when I differ from your point of view, then somehow I am anti-India, or I admire the west more than the East. Put aside your preconceived notion about my point of view and just read what I am writing. I write what I feel, and I am honest about it. There are great things that we do not know that we can learn everyday. A gem found anywhere has the same value.
Please give credit to your audience, not all of them are fools.
 
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