Teaching Morals Of Ramayana To Kids

[sankara_sharmah]

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Shri Sankara Sharma

Thanks for writing the meaning for the word Vyaasa. But it does not mean there were many Vyaasas. The work Krishna means dark skinned. But usually when we say Krishna we don't mean all the dark skinned persons, but Vishnu's avatar Krishna. Similarly imo when we say Vyaasa we mean veda Vyaasa who compilied at his discretion the verses of veda.

Kind Regards

There are people who have done years of research into this and also got their PhDs. I can only post the conclusions.

 

[sangom]

Shri Sangom

When you say "To me your request "If I am wrong kindly show me existence of many Vyaasa" seems to be a tall order", I may have to go with what is at hand. Veda Vyaasa son of Parasara supervised comilation of all the four vedas, vedanda, all the puranas, uthra mimamsa, mahabharata(MB) etc.. Veda Vyaasa belong to MB period as per the story goes. So, his entry could be much later to rigvedic period.

It look like presently we are in 28th manvantra. So Veda Vyaasa could by the soul Vyaasa for this manvantra?

Kind Regards

When the Purusha sookta, in the rigveda, itself proclaims that the three vedas came out of a yaaga done by the devas, etc., and there is no mention there of any one compiling the vedas (and even all the four castes originated then) it does not appeal to me to go by any reference saying that Veda vyaasa s/o Parasara did the compilation.

Where is the proof that we are in the 28th manvantara? Can this not be 27th? There are only 14 manus in all, so how come we are in the 28th manvantara?

 

[Amirtha]

When the Purusha sookta, in the rigveda, itself proclaims that the three vedas came out of a yaaga done by the devas, etc., and there is no mention there of any one compiling the vedas (and even all the four castes originated then) it does not appeal to me to go by any reference saying that Veda vyaasa s/o Parasara did the compilation.

Where is the proof that we are in the 28th manvantara? Can this not be 27th? There are only 14 manus in all, so how come we are in the 28th manvantara?

Shri Sangom

I understand three vedas are mentioned in purusha sukta. Your doubt about Vyaasa splitting and compiling in four parts is very valid. But as you know very well Vyaasa is known as veda Vyaasa. We have been told all along that veda vyaasa split and compiled Veda as four Vedas.


You did mentioned your belief in puranas is next to nothing. While there is no mention about Vyaasa in purusha suktam there is a plenty of Vyaasas mentioned in Vishnu purana. In fact 28 of them. Kindly ref Vishnu purana book 3, chapter 3 (even though you may not believe it )

Now why it is not 27th manvantra---

As per Vishnu purana each manavantra got four yuga. In every Dvapara yuga a veda vyaasa is born and split and compiles veda in to four.

Twenty-eight times have the Vedas been arranged by the great Rishis in the Vaivasvata Manvantara... and consequently eight and twenty Vyasas have passed away; by whom, in the respective periods, the Veda has been divided into four

Vyasa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kind Regards

 

[tbs]

hi
just add this....

Kozhikode to host 6th International Vedic workshop

 

[renuka]

We can show kids this video song of Ramayan..nice

[video=youtube_share;IuyZIw8kigU]http://youtu.be/IuyZIw8kigU[/video]

 

[tks]

Dear Sri Sangom sir

Thanks for this detailed posting which advances the points you are making very well.

Regarding the reference you asked for let me research and get back to you in a few days. A few years ago someone in another context talked about some of those verses you have referenced. At that time I came across some information and made some notes. My main point there is that the word Mamsa has more than one meaning. I understand that context of usage is important to get the correct meaning. I have very briefly heard and read explanations that refuted the points of some of these verses but I have not personally researched or come across the level of details you have provided.

When I was a student in high school I happen to study Sanskrit on my own to pass exams given by Bharathiya Vidya Bhavan. This was in addition to taking up the subject for my high school as an optional subject. I hated language studies in general though I did pass many of the exams given by Bharathiya Vidya Bhavan. After I hit third class marks in an exam one short of Shastri level I gave up and never spent time learning Sanskrit. They provided me a certificate for passing During that time my father used to read primarily Sundara Kandam and sometimes I will join. My exposure to VR is limited to that. Given my limited knowledge of Sanskrit, given that my understanding of Ramayana is through others and given that my interest is mainly in overall messages and teaching that can help towards my growth and maturity , I am not qualified to provide responses to the translations you have provided

In the absence of credible response by someone else your analysis stands in my view in this forum. My main point though all along is that there are other views I have come across for similar verses. A balanced presentation would provide those views as well.

For example a quick Google search identifies writing by Stephen Knapp

Vegetarianism Recommended in Vedic Scripture

But it does not go into depths like your post does in VR.

The analysis above is about the same level one sees in blogs and so authenticity level is about the same as any of our posts here.

The topic of what the historic figures did is not of interest to me personally. However, I do care about the value of Ramayana in the context of my personal growth and maturity. In 1000 years the text has been embellished which is clear from the fact that there are descriptions that defy laws of physics. So attempt to reconcile verses that stress vegetarianism and over those verses such as the one you have cited is a hard thing to do.

However I care about if the larger teachings that are abstracted and are reconcilable. At that level I have not found any contradictions. I already posted my view that taking an animal's body for survival of 'our body' (which is not us) is not inconsistent with any teaching.

Even descriptions of enjoyment is not an issue if those desires do not control our actions.

Given that our tradition is not history centric )and this is a key point, only thing that matters with our scriptures - embellished or otherwise - is if they have any teaching that leads to our personal growth here and now. Rama as Isvara as personification of Dharma lives in the heart of Bhakthas. The interpretation at a larger context ("big picture") is that it teaches universal principles that can lead to our growth and maturity.

Regards

I finally found the reference mentioned above..






Did Lord Ram eat Meat? | Arise India Forum - Dispel illusion and hatred..establish truth!!


Verse in Valmiki Ramayna that was referred there is this



चतुर्दश हि वर्षाणि वत्स्यामि विजने वने |
मधु मूल फलैः जीवन् हित्वा मुनिवद् आमिषम् || २-२०-२९
29. vatsyaami = I shall live vane = in forest; vijane = bereft of people munivat = like sage chaturdasha = fourteen varshhaaNi = years hitvaa = leaving off aamishham = meat; jiivan = living madhu muulaphalaiH = with honey; roots and fruits.
"I shall live in a solitary forest like a sage for fourteen years, leaving off meat and living with roots, fruits and honey".


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The authenticity of reference is the same as that of any blogs including our own forum posts.


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With that said let me summarize my understanding.

1. In attempting to understand Ramayana (or any other similar scriptures) which may possibly describe a historic person from 500 BCE time frame we have to understand that many people have contributed to the current status of VR as about 25000 verses were passed on via oral and written traditions when paper & printing was unknown. There could have been many authors along the way. It is great that there was no apparent attempt to hide anything - contradictory descriptions remain in the VR we see today.

2. To guess how many of each of our ancestors that may have heard about Ramayana let us consider this. If it takes approximately 20 years for a generation to occur, in a span of 60 years there are 3 generations - 2 raised to 3 ancestors which is 8. In 2400 years each of us had 2 raised to 120 ancestors in this order of magnitude calculation. The number is about 1.329228e+36. This is about decillion which is one billion trillion trillion ancestors for each of us. This is not an imaginative number since our existence today is a proof that they existed. Even if someone does not like my approximations they can divide the number by a trillion. This is still a staggeringly big number and a percentage of our own ancestors had exposure to Ramayana for it to reach us today. You can imagine how many people had listened and interpreted and passed on the story of Sri Rama from our ancestors alone. With no apparent standardization in effect all we can conclude is that contradictory verses are bound to be around. Also it is not clear what kind of civilization it was then and it is not possible to estimate if and when the concept of Ahimsa (which occurs in later works like B.Gita as a value) was applied to food habits. Sri Rama could very well have been a non-vegetarian - we do not know. And we do not care because to us Sri Rama is a concept with the epic as a container to explain principles that benefit us.

3. Again the above is not a cause of any conflict. We are not 'history -centirc' tradition unlike the biblical religions. We know these epics have been interpreted and passed on without any standardization or enforcement agency! We can only look for two things - 1. What are the timeless (and place-less, which means true in any parts of the world without being exposed to our scriptures) teachings? 2. Is the teaching of any use to our growth & maturity here and now. If one approaches any of our epics with the above as the criteria there are no issues or contradictions. We are better off if Sri Rama is largely a figment of collective imagination and interpretation. Various poets and saints (like Thyagaraja) are telling a story of Sri Rama which is a concept for Isvara.

 

[prasad1]

Have we not lost the plot?
Does it matter if Ram ate meat or not?

We know Agatya muni ate Meat in the form of goat, when Vatapi was served as meat.
Rama was a chatreya and allowed to eat meat.

 

[Raghy]

Have we not lost the plot?
Does it matter if Ram ate meat or not?

We know Agatya muni ate Meat in the form of goat, when Vatapi was served as meat.
Rama was a chatreya and allowed to eat meat.

Sri. Prasad, Greetings.

I agree. It doesn't matter what Ram ate or did not eat. Also it doesn't matter what ever is celebrated as morals from Ramayana. as for 2013, humanity has travelled forward by leaps and bounds in comparison to Ramayana period.

In my opinion, at the present time we are following more moral values than what was followed in that period. When the justice is not done, today we have the opportunity to question the authority which generally would not have been possible then. I think we have more moral values today.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Sri. Prasad, Greetings.

I agree. It doesn't matter what Ram ate or did not eat. Also it doesn't matter what ever is celebrated as morals from Ramayana. as for 2013, humanity has travelled forward by leaps and bounds in comparison to Ramayana period.

In my opinion, at the present time we are following more moral values than what was followed in that period. When the justice is not done, today we have the opportunity to question the authority which generally would not have been possible then. I think we have more moral values today.

Cheers!

I agree with your post.
Let us change the dialog. We are interested in today's moral values. Today's moral values are shaped by our national constitution, our cultural heritage, our scriptures and other books. The order of precedence matters too.
If child marriage is outlawed by our constitution it supersedes what Ramayana or purana tell us.
If I want to be a vegetarian then that supersedes, what any one else does or did.
My moral values are personal to me, and others can not impose it on me in a free country.
What is moral in USA may not be moral in Saudi Arabia. So when teaching the moral values to today's kids we have to recognize the geographic limitations too.\

Like Mr. Sharmah said
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/10963-inheritance-boys-vs-girls-2.html#post174017

 

[Raghy]

I agree with your post.
Let us change the dialog. We are interested in today's moral values. Today's moral values are shaped by our national constitution, our cultural heritage, our scriptures and other books. The order of precedence matters too.
If child marriage is outlawed by our constitution it supersedes what Ramayana or purana tell us.
If I want to be a vegetarian then that supersedes, what any one else does or did.
My moral values are personal to me, and others can not impose it on me in a free country.

Like Mr. Sharmah said
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/10963-inheritance-boys-vs-girls-2.html#post174017

Sri. Prasad,

I liked the message posted by Sri. Sharma ( That one 'like' was my liking).

Yes, one's moral value is personal and others can not should not impose... provided one's moral value doesn't discriminate others; doesn't take away someone else freedom; does not rob somerone else's opportunity. Then one's moral value is good. But in the yester years more often than not, moral values were blind beliefs and supersitions.

Yesterday I was talking about Mahabharata with my wife... and Bheeshma. My one comment was " what an hypocrite! What waste of life!". He was educated so well.. but was out smarted all along by Sakuni!

I don't seriously bother 'teaching' my kids any moral values. But they have so much ethics in life! Of course, no big deal; everyone has such ethics anyway.

I allowed my children have freedom. I imposed nothing on them. But I followed strict ethics. They watched me. As a result, our son is a well composed 30 year old youngster in a dream job at the national level. As a rule he was never required to anything because I said so... he has to like to do it too. I and my wife never tried to establish our pride through our childen. We had to work hard to keep our heads held high. Our children just take that quality on board.

A free mind belong to today can impart more moral values than any scriptures written long ago.

Cheers!