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I dunno if this helps, but Yamaka, some jain tirthankaras are depicted as dark-skinned. Also Krishna, Vishnu, are depicted dark-skinned.

Also, Y, can we discount the presence of light-skinned muslims, french, british, coming in as invaders, or light-skinned traders coming in from central-asia, southern europe, etc leaving their light-skinned imprints? As had mentioned earlier, even if aryan invaders had come into india, after 2000 years they should have become dark-skinned, so the point would be how are people light skinned now?

Dear HH:

As we had talked about this in the "Aryan Invasion Thread" long time ago,

1. We started seeing since 900 AD light-skinned Muslims, french, british etc came in contact with the local population in India.. the question is how many of them really inter-married and lived for a long time with the local people?

2. We know from the experience of African Americans, who were brought from Africa since1700 AD to the US, did not lose their high melanin pigment so far.. my guess is it takes several thousand years of living in the colder Northern climate to mutate the melanin gene(s).

3. In the same way, how long will it take for the people from Northern climate to pick up complete expression of wild type melanin? My guess, again, it will take several thousand years of living in hot Southern climate.

In the meantime, most of the people in the Kanyakumari district will have the dark melanin skin and most people in Kashmir will have the light melanin skin, and all others in between will show a large hue of colors...that's the beautify of India.

Just look at CM J Jayalalith and Kanimozhi; CHO Ramasamy and A. Raja; Maran brothers and Poet Vairamuthu etc etc.

Here in the Massive Human Migration, people will ask why Saudis, Persians, Iraqis, Burmese and Indonesians are not dark skinned?

My answer is during the course of this Human Migration, large number of families stayed permanently in India because of the fertile lands nourished by the majestic perennial rivers of Indus, Ganges, Bramaputra, Narmada, Cauvery etc.. Whereas a very small number stayed back in other places and were quickly extinct because of the bad weather.

I deduce the current people in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Burma, Indonesia all came much later from the Northern colder climate probably around 5000 years ago.

Therefore, I presume, Indian Civilization is the most ancient with a very well developed literary prowess as exhibited by the Tamils of the First, Second and Third Sangam periods (1000 BC to 200 AD). The next is the Greek civilization as shown in the Greek Mythologies.

Anyway, my hypothesis will have some holes, which need to be plugged slowly....

Regards.
 
Prasad1,

Megalithic urns are characteristic of idol worship. Men of stature were buried in urns and ritualism was associated with it. Same for martyrs for whom veerakals or ritual memory stones were erected.

The jain nature of tamilnadu in the 3rd century bc is confirmed. Jain beds were found. People were meditating in jain beds as well as practicing ritualism associated with burial urns.

KB is right. The jains do not consider the stones or idols as Creator Gods. Definitely not ones who can grant moksham. One can say their concept is like the tao ancestor worship, that is, showing reverence. The jain emphasis is on self-realisation.

Now comes the point since when did hindus start considering idols as Creator Gods. Lets say Shiva Linga. A linga as a religious symbol can mean anything. Maybe a fertility symbol also. But from when did we posit the Linga symbolism as Shiva (human) and a destroyer-god? Maybe puranas.

We also have pranapratishta, opening the eyes of an idol and various rituals. Maybe in an earlier era these concepts did not exist, and were developed later. So in future i wonder what kind of a religion will we be developing...maybe modified concepts borrowed from the past to be taken thru the ages...

Regards.
 
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Am very sorry to ask this sir, but may i ask where have i used puranic material liberally in this thread? I have dealt with the origin of cholas from puranas, aitareya brahmana, and shatapatha brahmana here. I will agree that puranic material is not to be trusted. Fake geneologies have always been built. The Pallavas give their earliest ancestor as Ashokavarman and yet claimed descent from Dronacharya. This shows that such kings / men were just ordinary men, who upon coming to positions of power, took on a brahmanical status to go with it.

And if I am not wrong, you yourself have said that sanskrit prasastis earned mythical ancestry for aspiring royalty. Hence the Puranic pronouncements
could merely be to corroborate such mythical lineages, and hence interpolations. Your liberal use of Puranic material lowers the standard of your posts imho.

The Aitareya Brahmana states that Vishvamitra had a hundred sons, but that when he adopted his nephew Sunahsephas he proposed to make him the eldest of his sons. Fifty of them assented, and them Vishvamitra blessed that they should "abound in cattle and sons;" the other and elder fifty dissented, and them he cursed "that their progeny should possess the furthest ends (of the country)," and from them have descended many of the border tribes and most of the Dasyus.


The above is one translation of the relevant portion of the Aitareya Brahmana. From whatever comments I have seen now (thanks to google) it looks to me as though the general opinion of scholars is that this Viswamitra story has been placed in Aitareya Brahmana (which belongs to the early period of scriptures) when the vedic people (Aryans) were slowly spreading east and had begun to come into contact with the different indigenous people (tribes?) ; the story is also interpreted to mean a disparagement of Kshatriya by brahmanic elements. Below are extracts from "Indian Caste" by John Wilson (downloadable from URL http://ia600406.us.archive.org/35/items/indiancaste00unkngoog/indiancaste00unkngoog.djvu).

"ORIGIN OF CASTE--NOTICES IN THE BRAHMANAS. 155

The pre-eminence of the Brahman to the Kshatriya is
here set forth by the alleged greater acceptability to the
gods as a sacrifice of a Brahman than a Kshatriya ; and
by the adoption of the Brahman, (said to have been set
apart for sacrifice) by Vishvamitra, A Brahmanical
disparagement of Vishvamitra and his consociates is also,
intended by the absurd allegation that the aboriginal
tribes of the Andhras, Pundras, Shabaras, Pulindas, and
Mutibas were descended from them*. These tribes
belonging principally to the South of India, appear from
the notice taken of them, to have been known to the
Aryas at the time of the composition of the Aitareya
Brahmana, while they were not as yet gained over to
Brahmanism. The Andhras were the inhabitants of the
province which was afterwards denominated Telingana ;
the Pundras are supposed to have occupied the Western
Provinces of Bengal ; the Shabaras are placed by Ptol-
emy near the (mouths of the) Ganges; and the Pulindas
are located by Ptolemy along the banks of the Narmada
to the frontiers of Larice, but in the Indian literature
they occur in different positions from the Indus to the
South."

Hence, the immediate conclusion that just because Aitareya Brahmana sets out a certain mythological story and the story makes Viswamitra curse his first fifty sons (elder to madhucchanda) "Your progeny(descendants) will all become Chandalas." And it is the Brahmana text writer's annotation that "they thus became the Andhras, Pulindas, Sabaras, Mutibas, Paundras, and dasyus."

I give below the original from the Brahmana itself so that there need not be any further doubts:—

तस्य ह विश्वामित्रस्यैकशतं पुत्रम् आसुः पञ्चाशदॆव ज्यायाँसो मधुच्छन्दसः पञ्चाशद्कनीयांसः ।
तद्धॆ ज्या‍याँसो न तॆ कुशलम् मॆ निरे ताननुव्याजहारान्तान् वः प्रजा भक्षीष्टॆति त एतेऽन्ध्राः, पुण्ड्राः, शबराः, पुळिन्दाः, मुतिबाः इत्युदन्त्या बहवो वैश्वामित्रा दस्यूनां भूयिष्ठाः।

Please note that the exact word used is "andhraah" and not "aandhraah", the rest four are tribes or castes in later times and Sabaras are found in different parts of India. Mutibas are not known subsequently. "udantyaa" will mean the end-most; here it can be taken to mean the lowest of dasyus, or living at the very edge of (the Aryan country). If we take the latter sense of the word, it may simply mean that Viswamitra cursed his sons to the farthest edges of the Arya country.

In any case there seems to be no case to conclude that Andhras are Viswamitras and so "The cholas themselves were brahmanical vishwamitras from the puranic view." etc. Once Viswamitra the father himself pronounced them to be "dasyus", there is no rational basis to consider Andhras, Cholas or anyone else (Sabaras, Pulindas, etc.) as "brahmanical viswamitras" whatever the meaning you deem to assign to this usage.

It is also difficult to imagine that the entire Andhra country was unpopulated till the cursed sons of Viswamitra landed there and started populating it. And since the other four categories Pulindas, Sabaras, Mutibas and Pundras did not have any region of their own, but have at best been recognised as tribes or certain groups of people, there is enough justification to propose that the andhraas of Aitareya Braahmana were just another existing tribe and Viswamitra's cursed sons mingled and merged with these tribes. But whether these andhraas are/were the people of Andhra in historical times, again, will require further deep study.

Before closing, I will request you not to form quick conclusions regarding such abstruse topics on the impression that some remarks in our scriptures can have only one meaning which strikes you and no other interpretation. Most of our scriptures are vague in so far as their historical contents are concerned. It will be necessary to check and cross-check and re-check before forming any conclusion imho.
 
But why did the Cholas patronize Brahmins? This is an important point. The Chola society was divided into just 2 groups -- Brahmin and Non-Brahmin [Ref]
Smt. HH,

The reference cited by you, [viz., The Pearson Indian History Manual for the UPSC Civil Services Preliminary Exam By Shri Vipul Singh] gives the following observations two pages after the statement "Society was divided into Brahmins and non-Brahmins."

K.A. Nilakanta Shastri has presented the picture of a highly centralised empire in the Chola country bulwarked by an efficient bureaucracy and sustained by a comprehensive revenue system and a strong navy. The glory of such a polity was identified in the cultural expressions such as the arts, architecture and literature of the period patronized by the rulers. Minakshi, Appadorai and T.V. Mahalingam, later on, followed his line of argument. This historiographical tradition was shaken when Burton Stein came out with his critique of centralised administration followed by his own alternative model of a segmentary state. Within the peasant society in the Chola kingdom, which is presented as coming together on bonds of kingship (sic) and marriage, Burton Stein has identified numerous vertically divided segments. These segments created a pyramid like organization having a series of relationships between the centre and the peripheries. ...

Recently, Noburu Karashima and Kesavan Veluthat have attempted an alternative model. ...


Hence it appears as if there is as yet no clear-cut idea about how the medieval Chola society functioned. The same applies to the composition of society of that period. From the cryptic statement "Society was divided into Brahmins and non-Brahmins.", it may not be correct to picturise a society consisting of Brahmins with all sorts of royal patronage and sacral powers in the religious sphere and all the rest were the degraded and despicable sudras. The non-brahmins perhaps consisted of various categories, classes and social groups enjoying privileges. Kindly refer to pp. 591-2 of "A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India" by Upinder Singh.
 
Dear Sangom and HH:

After reading many of your posts here I get the impression that you both believe the Epics Mahabharata and Ramayana narrate REAL life stories happened a short time before they were written.

Is my impression correct?

After talking to scholarly neutral people in the Tamil and History Dept in Madurai and Madras Universities I came to the conclusion that these Epics are FICTIONAL Mythologies only.

They were written in the Epic Period to propagate Vishnu worship in India (Mahabharata written by Sage Vyasa & co in about 300 BCE and Ramayana written by Adi Poet Valmiki in about 100 AD).

These two form the CORE of Puranic Hinduism explaining the Sanathana Dharma espoused in the Vedic Scripture of the Vedic Period (about 1000 BCE).

Please comment.

Cheers.
 
Y,
There are various other theories as well. One even says that Valmiki's rama was Gupta prince Samundra Gupta. To trust any puranas or itihasa as diction or scripture is risky.

Even gita is supposed to have been inserted into Mahabharat.

It is frustrating that our history is mystery.
 
The Aitareya Brahmana states that Vishvamitra had a hundred sons, but that when he adopted his nephew Sunahsephas he proposed to make him the eldest of his sons. Fifty of them assented, and them Vishvamitra blessed that they should "abound in cattle and sons;" the other and elder fifty dissented, and them he cursed "that their progeny should possess the furthest ends (of the country)," and from them have descended many of the border tribes and most of the Dasyus.


The above is one translation of the relevant portion of the Aitareya Brahmana. From whatever comments I have seen now (thanks to google) it looks to me as though the general opinion of scholars is that this Viswamitra story has been placed in Aitareya Brahmana (which belongs to the early period of scriptures) when the vedic people (Aryans) were slowly spreading east and had begun to come into contact with the different indigenous people (tribes?) ; the story is also interpreted to mean a disparagement of Kshatriya by brahmanic elements. Below are extracts from "Indian Caste" by John Wilson (downloadable from URL http://ia600406.us.archive.org/35/items/indiancaste00unkngoog/indiancaste00unkngoog.djvu).

"ORIGIN OF CASTE--NOTICES IN THE BRAHMANAS. 155

The pre-eminence of the Brahman to the Kshatriya is
here set forth by the alleged greater acceptability to the
gods as a sacrifice of a Brahman than a Kshatriya ; and
by the adoption of the Brahman, (said to have been set
apart for sacrifice) by Vishvamitra, A Brahmanical
disparagement of Vishvamitra and his consociates is also,
intended by the absurd allegation that the aboriginal
tribes of the Andhras, Pundras, Shabaras, Pulindas, and
Mutibas were descended from them*. These tribes
belonging principally to the South of India, appear from
the notice taken of them, to have been known to the
Aryas at the time of the composition of the Aitareya
Brahmana, while they were not as yet gained over to
Brahmanism. The Andhras were the inhabitants of the
province which was afterwards denominated Telingana ;
the Pundras are supposed to have occupied the Western
Provinces of Bengal ; the Shabaras are placed by Ptol-
emy near the (mouths of the) Ganges; and the Pulindas
are located by Ptolemy along the banks of the Narmada
to the frontiers of Larice, but in the Indian literature
they occur in different positions from the Indus to the
South."

Hence, the immediate conclusion that just because Aitareya Brahmana sets out a certain mythological story and the story makes Viswamitra curse his first fifty sons (elder to madhucchanda) "Your progeny(descendants) will all become Chandalas." And it is the Brahmana text writer's annotation that "they thus became the Andhras, Pulindas, Sabaras, Mutibas, Paundras, and dasyus."

I give below the original from the Brahmana itself so that there need not be any further doubts:—

तस्य ह विश्वामित्रस्यैकशतं पुत्रम् आसुः पञ्चाशदॆव ज्यायाँसो मधुच्छन्दसः पञ्चाशद्कनीयांसः ।
तद्धॆ ज्या‍याँसो न तॆ कुशलम् मॆ निरे ताननुव्याजहारान्तान् वः प्रजा भक्षीष्टॆति त एतेऽन्ध्राः, पुण्ड्राः, शबराः, पुळिन्दाः, मुतिबाः इत्युदन्त्या बहवो वैश्वामित्रा दस्यूनां भूयिष्ठाः।

Please note that the exact word used is "andhraah" and not "aandhraah", the rest four are tribes or castes in later times and Sabaras are found in different parts of India. Mutibas are not known subsequently. "udantyaa" will mean the end-most; here it can be taken to mean the lowest of dasyus, or living at the very edge of (the Aryan country). If we take the latter sense of the word, it may simply mean that Viswamitra cursed his sons to the farthest edges of the Arya country
.
Dear Sir,

The very edge of the aryan country, aryavarta would mean bengal / odisa perhaps...

Prof. Devadutt Ramakrisha Bhandarkar compared this account of Aitareya Brahmana text with actual historical proof from Ashoka's edicts, and produced the account that Andhra and Āndhra are the same, and that Pulida, Paulinda, and Palinda are the same.

It is due to his original research that we find several publications reprinting the point, that this phrase of Aitareya-Brahmana refers to the actual people savara, andhra, pulinda, etc.

I will repoduce the passage of interpretation by Devadutt Ramakrisha Bhandarkar from his book titled "Aśoka", p.xxix-xxx, published by the University of Calcutta, 1969 below:

…Varendras of North Bengal (pp.23, 32-33). This identification is impossible not only because Varendra is unknown in ancient Indian geography before the days of the Pālas and is mentioned for the first time in the records of the early medieval age, but also because the name Pāriṁda is found differently in the different Versions of Rock Edict XIII in the following compounds - Aṁdhra-Pāriṁda (Girnar), Adha-Pāiada (Kalsi), Aṁdhra-Palada (Erragudi). Palida in the Kharoshthi versions at Shahbazgarhi and Mansehra is obviously Pālida, while the Girnar version suggests that the intended reading of the name in the other versions is Pāliṁda. Apparently these people lived near the Andhras, with whom they are associated, somewhere in the Deccan. The Andhras of the Deccan could hardly have been associated with a people of North Bengal, many hundred miles away. The fact that, in early works like the Aitareya Brahmana and Mahabharata, the Andhras and Pulindas are mentioned together* shows that the associates of the Andhras in Asoka's Thirteenth Rock Edict are the same people. It may be noted that Andhra and Āndhra, Pulinda and Paulinda, are alternative forms of the same names, that Sanskrit Paulinda would become Pālinda in Prakrit....

In any case there seems to be no case to conclude that Andhras are Viswamitras and so "The cholas themselves were brahmanical vishwamitras from the puranic view." etc. Once Viswamitra the father himself pronounced them to be "dasyus", there is no rational basis to consider Andhras, Cholas or anyone else (Sabaras, Pulindas, etc.) as "brahmanical viswamitras" whatever the meaning you deem to assign to this usage.
Alright sir, i will not conclude anything. Also, i fail to understand how if once vishvamitra pronounced them dasyus, they will cease to be brahmanical, if varna is by birth right. How much difference will a father's (vishwamitra's) pronouncement make to these people, in terms of, establishing themselves in an other place? Since we do not know about all this, maybe we cannot conclude as well, that they ceased to be brahmanical.

It is also difficult to imagine that the entire Andhra country was unpopulated till the cursed sons of Viswamitra landed there and started populating it. And since the other four categories Pulindas, Sabaras, Mutibas and Pundras did not have any region of their own, but have at best been recognised as tribes or certain groups of people, there is enough justification to propose that the andhraas of Aitareya Braahmana were just another existing tribe and Viswamitra's cursed sons mingled and merged with these tribes. But whether these andhraas are/were the people of Andhra in historical times, again, will require further deep study.
I definitely agree the region must have been populated.

Before closing, I will request you not to form quick conclusions regarding such abstruse topics on the impression that some remarks in our scriptures can have only one meaning which strikes you and no other interpretation. Most of our scriptures are vague in so far as their historical contents are concerned. It will be necessary to check and cross-check and re-check before forming any conclusion imho.
I do not know if my conclusions have been quick. I will suggest that we continue to put forth information as we find it and let readers pick points as they wish.

Regards.
 
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Smt. HH,

The reference cited by you, [viz., The Pearson Indian History Manual for the UPSC Civil Services Preliminary Exam By Shri Vipul Singh] gives the following observations two pages after the statement "Society was divided into Brahmins and non-Brahmins."

K.A. Nilakanta Shastri has presented the picture of a highly centralised empire in the Chola country bulwarked by an efficient bureaucracy and sustained by a comprehensive revenue system and a strong navy. The glory of such a polity was identified in the cultural expressions such as the arts, architecture and literature of the period patronized by the rulers. Minakshi, Appadorai and T.V. Mahalingam, later on, followed his line of argument. This historiographical tradition was shaken when Burton Stein came out with his critique of centralised administration followed by his own alternative model of a segmentary state. Within the peasant society in the Chola kingdom, which is presented as coming together on bonds of kingship (sic) and marriage, Burton Stein has identified numerous vertically divided segments. These segments created a pyramid like organization having a series of relationships between the centre and the peripheries. ...

Recently, Noburu Karashima and Kesavan Veluthat have attempted an alternative model. ...


Hence it appears as if there is as yet no clear-cut idea about how the medieval Chola society functioned. The same applies to the composition of society of that period. From the cryptic statement "Society was divided into Brahmins and non-Brahmins.", it may not be correct to picturise a society consisting of Brahmins with all sorts of royal patronage and sacral powers in the religious sphere and all the rest were the degraded and despicable sudras. The non-brahmins perhaps consisted of various categories, classes and social groups enjoying privileges. Kindly refer to pp. 591-2 of "A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India" by Upinder Singh.
Since the Cholas are divided into different periods, definitely it would be difficult to piece things together, even for professional historians. I am no scholar in these things to form concrete conclusions after indepth study. Am just a history buff, open to new info and change of opinions.

Having said this, let me say am basing my current opinion on how things were from actual inscriptions/proof. I have already reproduced passages in the arakshan thread on how ordinary people had to fight for their rights in the period of the late-cholas, about high patronage to brahmins and land shared mainly by vellalars and brahmins. If anyone wants i could paste more info on those accounts.

Since land was the main point in those days, i don't know how much non-brahmins benefitted. But maybe there were non-brahmins enjoying some 'privileges', i will not contest that since i do not have sufficient information on it. However, considering that velalas and brahmins were the main beneficieries, it may not be improbable that the society then was divided into 2 classes - brahmins and non-brahmins (as has been written about in various books). Maybe the division into 2 classes of Bs and NBs was a broad division, with the former getting the largest share of benefits.

Regards.
 
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Dear HH:

As we had talked about this in the "Aryan Invasion Thread" long time ago,

1. We started seeing since 900 AD light-skinned Muslims, french, british etc came in contact with the local population in India.. the question is how many of them really inter-married and lived for a long time with the local people?

2. We know from the experience of African Americans, who were brought from Africa since1700 AD to the US, did not lose their high melanin pigment so far.. my guess is it takes several thousand years of living in the colder Northern climate to mutate the melanin gene(s).

3. In the same way, how long will it take for the people from Northern climate to pick up complete expression of wild type melanin? My guess, again, it will take several thousand years of living in hot Southern climate.

In the meantime, most of the people in the Kanyakumari district will have the dark melanin skin and most people in Kashmir will have the light melanin skin, and all others in between will show a large hue of colors...that's the beautify of India.

Just look at CM J Jayalalith and Kanimozhi; CHO Ramasamy and A. Raja; Maran brothers and Poet Vairamuthu etc etc.

Here in the Massive Human Migration, people will ask why Saudis, Persians, Iraqis, Burmese and Indonesians are not dark skinned?

My answer is during the course of this Human Migration, large number of families stayed permanently in India because of the fertile lands nourished by the majestic perennial rivers of Indus, Ganges, Bramaputra, Narmada, Cauvery etc.. Whereas a very small number stayed back in other places and were quickly extinct because of the bad weather.

I deduce the current people in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Burma, Indonesia all came much later from the Northern colder climate probably around 5000 years ago.

Therefore, I presume, Indian Civilization is the most ancient with a very well developed literary prowess as exhibited by the Tamils of the First, Second and Third Sangam periods (1000 BC to 200 AD). The next is the Greek civilization as shown in the Greek Mythologies.

Anyway, my hypothesis will have some holes, which need to be plugged slowly....

Regards.
Dear Y,

Am somewhat skeptical about your hypothesis that fair skin of present time would represent something 'aryan'.

One wud shudder to read about women who became a pawn in the enemity that existed between hindus and muslims back then. Was reading an account where the deccan sultans/chieftains grouped up and ranscaked vijayanagar city. The muslim armies / soilders were allowed to keep anything they laid their hands on, including women. Rama Raya and some of his kinsmen fled but later attacked the muslims back and inflicted upon their women the same situation they faced.

Am not saying such things were common or should have impacted skin color, however this point of history cannot be discounted as well. The north may have seen a lot more of such things, what with armies from uzbek mughals, etc.. Here the question is not marrying and settling, instead it is about leaving genetic imprints thru conquests.

Then you have the situation with traders. Traders having dalliances here and there was common, as also was dasis and keeps. Having many wives and concubines was a matter of pride to show off a man's wealth and virility (that he can manage so many women and also provide for, maintain so many families).

I know of men who had a wife in india and another wife in myanmar. These things were common. Like deeds with a 'no-ojection certificate'. The wife those days was no better than a domestic animal. She either knew nothing what her husband did outside or if she knew she just had to tolerate it.

I don't think the situation of African-Americans and their exposure to cold climates will fit in with the situations i am describing about.

I always suspected traders populated the world more than anyone else. Atleast in the case of ransacking armies we can say the likelihood of the women dying is high.

But in the case of traders, we have a situation where indians have been trading with the mediterranean, middle-east, far-east, etc. Traders from those areas were sailing into india as well for a long time...so i suppose these genetic imprints cannot be avoided.

Then we have the french, british, spanish, who came long after Genghis Khan cleared the silk route. The silk route was like a defined highway for leaving genetic imprints IMO.

Considering all this, am not sure how fair skin of the present-times, associated with an 'aryan' theory would be plausible. Just my thots. Wud be glad to hear inputs from you.

Regards.
 
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Dear Sangom and HH:

After reading many of your posts here I get the impression that you both believe the Epics Mahabharata and Ramayana narrate REAL life stories happened a short time before they were written.

Is my impression correct?

After talking to scholarly neutral people in the Tamil and History Dept in Madurai and Madras Universities I came to the conclusion that these Epics are FICTIONAL Mythologies only.

They were written in the Epic Period to propagate Vishnu worship in India (Mahabharata written by Sage Vyasa & co in about 300 BCE and Ramayana written by Adi Poet Valmiki in about 100 AD).

These two form the CORE of Puranic Hinduism explaining the Sanathana Dharma espoused in the Vedic Scripture of the Vedic Period (about 1000 BCE).

Please comment.

Cheers.
My view is that it is difficult to say if the puranic and itihasa stories are true. Maybe they were highly exagerrated accounts of petty tribal incidents also. One cannot say for sure either way.

Maybe these writers were getting inspired by actual events but adding so much of their own mirch-masala to it that it become fantastical accounts with no semblence to the actual events.

I would not completely discard them though, espscially, if there is an inscription, edict or some such historically provable point, then one may possibly take them to be describing an actual situation.

Ofcourse manufacturing genelogies has always existed. That's what we indians specialise in anyways...lol.

Regards.
 
Dear Sangom and HH:

After reading many of your posts here I get the impression that you both believe the Epics Mahabharata and Ramayana narrate REAL life stories happened a short time before they were written.

Is my impression correct?

After talking to scholarly neutral people in the Tamil and History Dept in Madurai and Madras Universities I came to the conclusion that these Epics are FICTIONAL Mythologies only.

They were written in the Epic Period to propagate Vishnu worship in India (Mahabharata written by Sage Vyasa & co in about 300 BCE and Ramayana written by Adi Poet Valmiki in about 100 AD).

These two form the CORE of Puranic Hinduism explaining the Sanathana Dharma espoused in the Vedic Scripture of the Vedic Period (about 1000 BCE).

Please comment.

Cheers.

Dear Yamaka,

I do not believe that ramayana, mahabharata, the puranas and even the stories/anecdotes described in the Upanishads and Brahmanas, are all fictional as far as we in the present time, are concerned. May be there were some actual events which would have formed the nucleus for the (poetic?/religious) imagination of the respective writers, but I think unless real scholarship discovers such nucleii with sufficient convincing evidence, we should not try to read more into any of these.

I feel HH is placing lot of emphasis on these various sources and trying to find support for her theory that the smarta brahmins (as distinct from Brahmins as a general group) were responsible for the villainy of putting down many castes as Sudras and creating the Brahmin-Sudra cleavage in Tamil society. While I do not in principle have any objection to any theory or conclusion, I feel she ought to furnish the relevant supporting evidence also for the readers' independent judgment.

You might have seen that my post does not encourage historical conclusions to be drawn from the Aitareya Brahmana story. May be because the discussions are too long and monotonous to keep anyone's continued attention and interest on them, you have not gone into the posts in minute detail.
 
Dear Yamaka,

I do not believe that ramayana, mahabharata, the puranas and even the stories/anecdotes described in the Upanishads and Brahmanas, are all fictional as far as we in the present time, are concerned. May be there were some actual events which would have formed the nucleus for the (poetic?/religious) imagination of the respective writers, but I think unless real scholarship discovers such nucleii with sufficient convincing evidence, we should not try to read more into any of these.

I feel HH is placing lot of emphasis on these various sources and trying to find support for her theory that the smarta brahmins (as distinct from Brahmins as a general group) were responsible for the villainy of putting down many castes as Sudras and creating the Brahmin-Sudra cleavage in Tamil society. While I do not in principle have any objection to any theory or conclusion, I feel she ought to furnish the relevant supporting evidence also for the readers' independent judgment.

You might have seen that my post does not encourage historical conclusions to be drawn from the Aitareya Brahmana story. May be because the discussions are too long and monotonous to keep anyone's continued attention and interest on them, you have not gone into the posts in minute detail.
Am so sorry to see this Sir. I am unable to accept your explanation that i am placing a lot of emphasis on such scriptural sources. Am open to the view that these sources may be right or maybe wrong.

I have made it very clear that i am placing my current opinion on inscriptional evidence from the late-chola period that explicitely brings out the caste-rigidity of that period and the brahmin-vellala nexus of that time.

I have already provided excerpts from some papers on the late-chola situation in the Aarakshan thread. I am therefore unable to accept this repeated allegation that i must come up with evidences.

Again, what you may see as villanary, i may not see it that way. I might see it as high-handedness tinged with some sadism in keeping people subjugated as slaves. This opinion i do not restrict to brahmins alone, but extend it to all former landed caste groups.

All the same, even if we discount the late-Chola period, the high-handedness of dominant groups of brahmins in the colonial period cannot be overlooked.

Thankyou.
 
Prasad1,

The jain nature of tamilnadu in the 3rd century bc is confirmed. Jain beds were found. People were meditating in jain beds as well as practicing ritualism associated with burial urns.

Smt. HH,

What exactly is meant by "jain nature of tamilnadu" and how is it confirmed? From what type/s of sources?

I am asking this doubt because I get it as saying "Tamilnadu was predominantly Jain in the 3rd. century B.C. This is news to me.
 
Smt. HH,

What exactly is meant by "jain nature of tamilnadu" and how is it confirmed? From what type/s of sources?

I am asking this doubt because I get it as saying "Tamilnadu was predominantly Jain in the 3rd. century B.C. This is news to me.
Dear Sir,

Explained here - http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...article-about-kerala-iyers-15.html#post100811 To enumerate they are
1) archelogical finds of jain beds in various locations
2) Tamil-Brahmi cave inscriptions, that is, epigraphical records, found in Tamil Nadu dedicated to Jains

Please let me know if you require more evidences.

Regards.
 
Dear Sir,

Explained here - http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...article-about-kerala-iyers-15.html#post100811 To enumerate they are
1) archelogical finds of jain beds in various locations
2) Tamil-Brahmi cave inscriptions, that is, epigraphical records, found in Tamil Nadu dedicated to Jains

Please let me know if you require more evidences.

Regards.


Dear Happy,

I do accept the possibility that Jain culture was popular in Tamil Nadu but it must be along with Buddhism. I do not see the state as a predominantly vegetarian land to accept the possibility that a vast majority were jains. On the other hand Gujarat was deeply influenced by Jainism and the evidence is found in the food habits of Gujaratis even today.

I wpuld suppose that Jainism and Buddhism was just an overlay on the local culture of the Tamils. It must be an accompaniment to the existing gods and goddesses. If christianity were to dissappear in Tamil Nadu , then a future generation looking at Tamil Nadu should not conclude that christianity was the main religion of Tamils in the past. Sometimes religions patronized by royalty tend to show more footprints then their strict adherence by the population. Would you agree?
 
Dear Happy,

I do accept the possibility that Jain culture was popular in Tamil Nadu but it must be along with Buddhism. I do not see the state as a predominantly vegetarian land to accept the possibility that a vast majority were jains. On the other hand Gujarat was deeply influenced by Jainism and the evidence is found in the food habits of Gujaratis even today.

I wpuld suppose that Jainism and Buddhism was just an overlay on the local culture of the Tamils. It must be an accompaniment to the existing gods and goddesses. If christianity were to dissappear in Tamil Nadu , then a future generation looking at Tamil Nadu should not conclude that christianity was the main religion of Tamils in the past. Sometimes religions patronized by royalty tend to show more footprints then their strict adherence by the population. Would you agree?
I agree. Unlike Sri Lankan inscriptions, the Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions do not carry Jain philosophy. They merely mention grants made by the local elite to jaina monks. So this will indicate that jain philosophy or siddhanta, developed in part actually in Srilanka.

If you ask, were all people jain at that time? Definitely the answer is no. Buddism was present. As also tribal customs of burial urns and ritualism dating from iron-age culture. This was the local culture.

The paper says sangam literature indicates hinduism and New social orders were formed during this period. The paper takes various evidences including cultural phases of archeological sites, into consideration.

IMO this is consistent with the view put forth by himanshu ray, that varna terms were introduced into andhra during satavahana empire. Hence, social orders that were created during early historic period, of satavahanas (imo), falls in place with the rest of the puzzle.

There could have been many gods / godesses. But maybe perhaps they were ancestors considered as gods. And not as creator-gods. Since burial urns were found around Thiruvenkata hills, am having a doubt if Thiruvenkata was a highly prominent ancestor of some of the local tribes living in the hills. I mean, long before there was anything called jainism, saktaism, saivism, vaishavism, buddhism, etc. If yes, it wud mean Thiruvenkata was a native tribal deity.

Lets say, my grandmom died. She was a prominent person having some acheivements to her credit. I get a proto-type rough image of hers carved on her burial urn or get some sacred markings engraved in it. Whenever i seek peace or have a problem, i go to her burial urn, offer flowers, arrange pots with materials inside them, do some ritualism hoping it is bring her soul peace, and appeases her spirit. To my clan, over time, she would become a clan goddess or kula-devi, to whom we go to seek help to solve problems. Maybe this is what kuladeivam is about in tribal religion. Just speculating though.

Regards.
 
Dear Yamaka,

I do not believe that ramayana, mahabharata, the puranas and even the stories/anecdotes described in the Upanishads and Brahmanas, are all fictional as far as we in the present time, are concerned. May be there were some actual events which would have formed the nucleus for the (poetic?/religious) imagination of the respective writers, but I think unless real scholarship discovers such nucleii with sufficient convincing evidence, we should not try to read more into any of these.

I feel HH is placing lot of emphasis on these various sources and trying to find support for her theory that the smarta brahmins (as distinct from Brahmins as a general group) were responsible for the villainy of putting down many castes as Sudras and creating the Brahmin-Sudra cleavage in Tamil society. While I do not in principle have any objection to any theory or conclusion, I feel she ought to furnish the relevant supporting evidence also for the readers' independent judgment.

You might have seen that my post does not encourage historical conclusions to be drawn from the Aitareya Brahmana story. May be because the discussions are too long and monotonous to keep anyone's continued attention and interest on them, you have not gone into the posts in minute detail.

Dear Sangom:

As you know there is a case pending in Appeal on the issue of destruction of Babri Masjid at the Supreme Court.

The core issue is whether Ayodhya had a Ram Temple which was destroyed by the person who built the Babri Masjid in about 1560 AD.

Every thing boils down to about epic Ramayana and whether it was a REAL story or a FICTION.

Non partisan historians say that Ramayana is a FICTION... about the problems of Inheritance of Power and the problems that creates in the early Indian Society.

According to Ramayana, Lord Rama was born in a totally a different yuga (I recall it as Drytha ??Yuga), which experts calculate to be about 176,000 years ago.

We know by Anthropological data, all humans were in Africa up until 50,000 years ago!

And, Lord Rama worship became popular in India only AFTER Ramayana was translated into Hindi after 1560 AD.. and there could not be any Temple where Lord Rama was the deity before 1560 AD...

Clearly, here we are talking about practical legal issues touching FICTION and REALITY of Mythologies and Ithihasangals.....

More later...

:)
 
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As you know there is a case pending in Appeal on the issue of destruction of Babri Masjid at the Supreme Court.

The core issue is whether Ayodhya had a Ram Temple which was destroyed by the person who built the Babri Masjid in about 1560 AD.


Every thing boils down to about epic Ramayana and whether it was a REAL story or a FICTION.

I know this was to Mr. Sangom. But your contention is completely wrong.
No body argues that there was a Ram temple in Ayodya in 1560AD. That temple was destroyed and the babri Masjid was built is also beyond doubt,
Weather Ram was born there is disputed. I am not in favor of destroying the masjid either.
I do not argue that our mythology has any historical proof. I am not even sure about the avatars. But it is facts that Muslim rulers razed temples and built Mosque.

You also must profess that Anthropology is an evolving field. The dates keep changing depending on the finds.
 
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I wish that Thiru.Yamaha read the evidence tendered by Shri.R.Nagaswamy retired Director of Archaeology Government of Tamilnadu in the Ayodhya Temple destruction/demolition of Babri Majzid case in Allahabad High Court.He testified in the court that a temple existed at the very site over which Babri Mazjid was constucted.
This isolated incident(Some overzealous hindus resorting to demolition of a structure built by followers of another Faith) is blown out of proportion.
What happened in one of the European country is totally forgotten.
Muslims conquer that country,demolish all churches and construct their Prayer houses.After some years Christians recapture that place,demolish all Muslim Prayer houses and reconstruct their Churches which are still existing.This is part of that country's history,but none in the world discuss or recall that incident.
 
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S/Shri Yamaka, Prasad, Krishnamurthy,

In regard to the Babri Masjid issue my considered view is that the BJP did a very foolish act and it failed to realize the possible long-term reaction of hindus and muslims to that demolition. The Party was short-sighted and was correct in foreseeing the immediate election gains, but the long term alienation of Muslims - including the section which was mild and well-disposed to living amicably with the rest of the people in India - was the greatest loss to BJP.

Regarding Shri Krishnamurthy Sir's remarks, I feel it is not correct to compare events of 13 or 14 centuries ago with what happened some two decades back. Those were the days of one kingdom attacking another, loot, rape and plunder and imposition of the victor's religion in the conquered areas. Do we go back to those norms now, when the Muslims had at last decided to live in India under a democratic set-up and the Masjid itself was in disuse and no one had thought of destroying it even in 1857 when the patriotic fervour was at a high. To me the whole Babri demolition is a "aa bail mujhe maar" exercise.:)

From whatever I have read and what appealed to me therefrom, there might have been some folk hero or folk god by name Rama and someone with the pen name Vaalmeeki wrote a Sanskrit epic, probably after the Alexandrian invasion and getting to know about the Greek epics from the Greeks. In this Vaalmeeki Ramayana, Rama was at best a valiant king, nothing more. But when the Bhakti cult from the south slowly started spreading to the North, it was found that this Rama epic could be used to forge a bhakti cult centred around Rama.

Adhyaatma Ramayana was thus forged (no pun intended pl.) by someone in the then nascent Ramanandi sect. This AR was avidly taken up and in order to enhance its mass appeal, Tulsidas made his now famous Ramacharitamanas and Rama became the Maryada Purusha and a standing symbol of the nouveau Hinduism.

We know nothing about this fictional Rama but much harm has been done to the country by the demolition.
 
I wish that Thiru.Yamaha read the evidence tendered by Shri.R.Nagaswamy retired Director of Archaeology Government of Tamilnadu in the Ayodhya Temple destruction/demolition of Babri Majzid case in Allahabad High Court.He testified in the court that a temple existed at the very site over which Babri Mazjid was constucted.
This isolated incident(Some overzealous hindus resorting to demolition of a structure built by followers of another Faith) is blown out of proportion.
What happened in one of the European country is totally forgotten.
Muslims conquer that country,demolish all churches and construct their Prayer houses.After some years Christians recapture that place,demolish all Muslim Prayer houses and reconstruct their Churches which are still existing.This is part of that country's history,but none in the world discuss or recall that incident.

Dear Krish Sir:

What Archeological excavation says is

1. There was a pre-existing structure under the ruins of the Babri Masjid. Logically this could mean many many things -

a. Some ruins of a Buddhist/Jain Temple
b. Some large "Chathram" or "Padasala"
c. Some temple other than Rama Temple etc etc.

Tulasidasa belonged to Ayodhya. He is considered the authority on Rama worship & Rama knowledge... he only translated the Ramayana into Hindi in about 1560 AD... he never mentioned of a Rama Temple in his home town in any of his writings.... this should tell the whole story - that there was no Rama Temple in Ayodhya, period.

Therefore, for people like me, it is highly unlikely a Rama Temple stood at the very site of Babri Masjid in the period of about 1560 AD...

As Sangom said, what RSS/BJP did in Ayodhya was a pure and simple malicious act for the sake of short term political gains.

That act has divided the country very negatively.... the most unfortunate event in modern Indian history.

I am awaiting the final verdict from the Supreme Court as to how they would treat that demolished historical structure.

Wait & watch.

:)

ps. Besides, Lord Rama was born about 170,000 years ago, in a different Yuga; this historically means when humans were in Africa near the Great Rift Valley around Lake Victoria....this makes NO sense... All Rama stories are FICTIONS, imo. Cheers.
 
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Sangom sir,
I respect your views and they are balanced, and very conciliatory.
But you are trying to gloss over the fact that A temple did exist before, and it was destroyed to build a Mosque. The question of Ram being king or God, or the time the temple was built is not of consequence. I would have expected Yamaka to make the correction.
Still my position that Masjids were built by demolishing Hindu Temples is fact. Take at look Mathura, Kashi, somenath, and many more. Even kutub minar is built on Temple structure. I do not know how many of the posters here have spent their life in Northern part of India. The power of the Muslim voting block, and the group mentality of poorer Muslims do not endear them to Hindus, Sikhs, etc. When India Vs pakistan matches used to be played they will openly support Pakistan. I am against anti-India people.

Organised religion does not bother me, I am not for one in personal life.
I do not want to create trouble between groups to win election, but seems the norm. I was against demolishing of the Temple, and equally against demolishing of the masjid. There are enough spots to build Temple.
 
Well.. someone may ask me, "Y, you are an Atheist, why do you worry about Sangh Parivar (RSS/BJP) destroying the Babri Masjid, which was most probably built on the ruins of some temple, not necessarily a Rama temple?"

Here is my answer -

India is an ancient land where Theism and Orthodoxy is still prevailing... there are nearly 200 million people of religious minority, in particular millions of Muslims.. if the Hindutva breathing Parivars are allowed to demolish an existing Historical Monument in the name of some FICTIONAL Rama Story, that's terrible.

That paved the way for horrible tension among Muslims and Hindus in North India...

That's quite regrettable as far as Y is concerned... that's why Y is dead against the BJP/RSS/Shiv Sena!!

More later...
 
Well.. someone may ask me, "Y, you are an Atheist, why do you worry about Sangh Parivar (RSS/BJP) destroying the Babri Masjid, which was most probably built on the ruins of some temple, not necessarily a Rama temple?"

Here is my answer -

India is an ancient land where Theism and Orthodoxy is still prevailing... there are nearly 200 million people of religious minority, in particular millions of Muslims.. if the Hindutva breathing Parivars are allowed to demolish an existing Historical Monument in the name of some FICTIONAL Rama Story, that's terrible.

That paved the way for horrible tension among Muslims and Hindus in North India...

That's quite regrettable as far as Y is concerned... that's why Y is dead against the BJP/RSS/Shiv Sena!!

More later...
I have no argument for/or against BJP/RSS/Shiv Sena/ Muslim league. There should be no religious party. Religion should not be used as a means in a Secular country for election. Is that possible, probably not.
 
India is an ancient land where Theism and Orthodoxy is still prevailing... there are nearly 200 million people of religious minority, in particular millions of Muslims.. if the Hindutva breathing Parivars are allowed to demolish an existing Historical Monument in the name of some FICTIONAL Rama Story, that's terrible.
I could not quite understand this emphasis on Lord Rama being fictional!

Who is to say that Allah is NOT fictional?

If a monument existed for fictional Allah, why is to so inconceivable that a temple existed for Lord Rama?

It is one thing to argue against demolishment of the mosque (there are plenty of ways one can build a case against), but what is the need to question the historicity of Lord Rama? It is not for no reason that atheists are accused of being partial!

that's why Y is dead against the BJP/RSS/Shiv Sena!!

The hindutva parties seem to be the only ones who are willing to stand against Islamic and Christian fundamentalism in India. They cannot be easily wished away!
 
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