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Why Would God Want Us to Praise Him?

KRS

Well-known member
Dear KRS ji,

I understand that you asked the question as a response to the statement by Prasad ji but its just that I dont seem to able to get into details of Maya/Brahman etc as if my mind doesnt open the url for details which dont really matter anymore.

Evidence based is not the operating system that is conducive as previously thought but Experience based seems a lot more balancing and alignining and Jnana isnt logic or information but rather clearing our memory space to receive personalized updates.
I understand.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Yes praising some other human being is transactional. Humans want to be praised, and corrupt the system.
One can not equate god with a human being.
If god is another human with human feelings, passions, and ego, that is not a god.

I do not know how much false hope is advantageous in mental health.
Suppose a patient is on their deathbed with few hours to live, and you assure his relatives that you can cure him because he praised you and begged you, The relative will become quiet and hopeful. But when the patient dies, that same relative will be angry at you and suit you.

Brahan is beyond such ego-centric behavior.
No doctor gives false hopes.
But when things get critical mostly tell patients relatives that the situation is critical and we would do the best and leave the rest to God.

Yes..false hope is advantages at least in the beginning.
Its like this...contaminated water isnt safe to drink but when a person is dying of thirst he would drink any water he can get his hands on..his focus is hydration and he can deal with the contaminants later.

But when situation is stable he would only drink clean water.

Like how we give a person who is planning to commit suicide some false hopes just to stop the suicide.
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Dear KRS ji,
At a certain point we all would understand that there isnt a rigid right or wrong understanding.
Our perceptions and data of understanding of any aspect of " Reality" are just bytes that take up the storage space of our mind.

This is where knowledge could prove a hindrance at times that it doesnt allow us to align ourselves with the Universal Consciousness/ God.

Its like this...in order for us to download and install new updates on our phone we need to have sufficient storage space.
So if our mind is filled with our personal perception data and information,how are we going to allow any update to be downloaded into our system?

Chapter 1, Sutra 43 Patanjali Yoga Sutra

Patanjali Yoga Sutra 1.43

Smriti-Parisuddhau-Svarupasunya-Iva-Arthamatra-Nirbhasa-Nirvitarka

When The Memory Is Purified, The Mind Appears To Be Devoid Its Own Nature (i.e. Of Reflective Consciousness ) And Only The Object ( On Which It Is Contemplating) Remains Illuminated . This Kind Of Engrossment Is Called Nirvitarka Samapatti.
Taken from The Yoga Institute Website.

In the above stanza its about clearing the memory card of our mind so that only the object that we are contemplating on is illuminated.

If this stanza is understood we would come to understand that no matter what our understanding about Brahman or Maya or God or religion ...it does not really make a difference finally..cos all we have to do is clear up the memory card a be a new card and let the download in the NOW auto update us.
Mind is in the domain of logic , illogic, emotions, beliefs and superstitions all of which can come in the way of realizing the ultimate truths. I can sort of get that part of the teaching,

But to say that mind has no role will be wrong. Why should scriptures are presented as dialogs. No teaching or any engagement is possible if mind is a problem because all its content has to be dumped.

Scriptures are often misquoted and used to support an often blind belief system. If it is a belief then so be it. no further comments,

Patanjali was a dualist. He is talking about a specific experience of the mind in contemplating on one thing. So what?

Universal conciousness is but another mental model. I think the memory dump has to dump that too
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Mind is in the domain of logic , illogic, emotions, beliefs and superstitions all of which can come in the way of realizing the ultimate truths. I can sort of get that part of the teaching,

But to say that mind has no role will be wrong. Why should scriptures are presented as dialogs. No teaching or any engagement is possible if mind is a problem because all its content has to be dumped.

Scriptures are often misquoted and used to support an often blind belief system. If it is a belief then so be it. no further comments,

Patanjali was a dualist. He is talking about a specific experience of the mind in contemplating on one thing. So what?

Universal conciousness is but another mental model. I think the memory dump has to dump that too
Agreed.
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Sri a-TB Sir,

Firstly, I am probably less scholarly than you. But let me try to explain.

In Advaitha, Avidhya, which is same as Maya indeed is not ‘born’ at the time of creation. That is why I intentionally used the word, ‘borne out of’, which has a whole different meaning.

One can have endless conversations of Avidhya till cows come home, as some scholarly Advaitins and Visishtadvaitins do. I am just not interested in such polemics. In the end, what matters is to throw away the books and start practicing. The travel itself is worth it for the peace and serenity, and whether one reaches the destination does not matter.

Logic can only take one so far, because the data it draws from is limited. Also, one does not need to know Newton’s laws to know that there is gravity, Experience and observation tells you that.

But, what is important to know is that the ultimate Truth is Brahman, everything else is relative truth. But what we need to keep in mind is that the relative truth is real within the existence of this Universe and that is also Brahman.

There is a beautiful explanation for the question, why God creates - in our tradition, it is the endless divine stage play, or a peek-a-boo, take your pick.

Also, by the way, one can come to realization only through one’s mind, according to Adi Shankara, and the method is Jnana Yoga.

By the way, I asked your response for my question in the other thread. If you respond, we can have a discussions about the questions you raised, including my views on Astrology. Thanks.
Dear Mr KRS Sir

I responded to the other thread. I am not a frequent visitor and hence missed reading your question.

I understood the the usage of borne vs born but my question was about creation.

I am only asking questions based on terms used here . I am not interested in endless discussion of any term but if a word is used I am trying to seek clarity on what is said.

Main point I understand from you is the travel to reach peace and serenity is all that matters. That makes sense.

Logic can take one only so far, but for that logic is needed to establish that. Otherwise it is just another belief and no discussion is possible.

Ultimate truth is Brahman - OK - what is it? It cannot be expressed in words , logic fails to reach it, no mental models are possible but it is important to know this ? How will this give peace and serenity?

You say, one can realize only through the mind but mind operates in logic and illogic, beliefs, emotions etc. Mind has questions and it has to be shut down ? How can this be Jnana yoga. I am not questioning anything by Sankara - I have no qualifications for that . Just responding only to the statements made here.

Hope you dont mind the engagement with this style . I have not engaged with many and it is a breath of fresh air to have quality engagements. Thank you for that
 

Iyest

Active member
One can have endless conversations of Avidhya till cows come home, as some scholarly Advaitins and Visishtadvaitins do. I am just not interested in such polemics. In the end, what matters is to throw away the books and start practicing. The travel itself is worth it for the peace and serenity, and whether one reaches the destination does not matter.

Logic can only take one so far, because the data it draws from is limited. Also, one does not need to know Newton’s laws to know that there is gravity, Experience and observation tells you that.

Yes sir. What we (mind) call logic is the mind's acceptance. By acceptance the mind becomes quiet. Otherwise it is agitated until a logical answer is found. So the search for logical explanations etc is really a search for peace. That is why it varies from person to person. What is logical to one (mind) may not be so for another. This thread is ongoing for 20 days. Answers to questions will only lead to further questions and there is no end to the process. The key is turning the question (mind) inwards, who is the questioner, who is the observer, who am I?
 

KRS

Well-known member
Sri a-TB sir,

I was a physicist once, so let me explain the way I always think. First, what is Brahman? There are two fold explanations, the existence of such an entity and so, then what is the nature of such an entity.

The existence of Brahman is very obvious. If one accepts science, the validity of ‘big bang’ theory, for it to have happened, creating both space and time, there must have been a cause. To me that cause is called Brahman. Even if one does not accept the ‘big bang’, one still needs to explain the existence of the physical universe we see and again, one needs to explain the cause.

So, then what is the nature of such an entity? Here, we can not use science to understand the nature. Because we are the ones that observe with our five senses to collect data, are ourselves part of the system. There is a well known theory that says that one can not understand what is outside an enclosed system, being part of the system. So, we can not perceive the nature of creator with our outwardly turned mind and senses.

But, then, as luck would have it, if we turn our focus inwards, through our mind, it is found that, we can indeed ‘know’ that creator. This is the concept of Advaitha.

But other ‘faiths’ say that there is a God as separate entity outside our universe who is all powerful, most excellent etc. But to ‘know’ that entity one has to wait till the end of time, when based on merits and demerits, one gets either eternal happiness or eternal suffering.

So, for my make up Advaitha makes sense. Not only because I am mentally constituted to like it, but because my genes come from a line of my ancestors who were all Advaithins and we all know how such ancestral thinking and behavior affect as to who we are today.

Secondly, Advaitha claims that one need not wait till the end of time to be in an eternal happy state, you can do it here and now. How? By understanding who we really are, that is permanent, that is universal and timeless. This is Brahman. Now, without going in to details about Maya, Atma, Ishwara, Karma, Dharma etc., to accept this lofty claim, one just needs to look for evidence, whether there is anyone who is believable who claimed to have achieved such a state of bliss. To one’s astonishment, one finds that such people are there, throughout history, to the present time in all cultures.

So, if one believes this, one has to take ‘instructions’ from one of those. For me again, because of my make up, it is Ramana Maharishi. Others follow others. I have faith that my guru achieved such a state and so whatever teachings that come out of such a person will not lead me astray.

This is all I can say. I do not know about the validity or the non validity of any other path. But since I started this mental journey more than a decade ago, I can attest to the fact that I am more and more at peace within myself.

This is a very long post. But I thought we can have a starting point, while answering some of your questions. Thanks.
 

KRS

Well-known member
Yes sir. What we (mind) call logic is the mind's acceptance. By acceptance the mind becomes quiet. Otherwise it is agitated until a logical answer is found. So the search for logical explanations etc is really a search for peace. That is why it varies from person to person. What is logical to one (mind) may not be so for another. This thread is ongoing for 20 days. Answers to questions will only lead to further questions and there is no end to the process. The key is turning the question (mind) inwards, who is the questioner, who is the observer, who am I?
Thank you Sri inestimable sir. You make an excellent point about mind and logic. Yes, we are all different. We forget that emotions color our logic as well. Thank you.
 

Iyest

Active member
Thank you Sri inestimable sir. You make an excellent point about mind and logic. Yes, we are all different. We forget that emotions color our logic as well. Thank you.

Yes sir. We are all different at the mind level. But we are all also identical since we are all seeking peace (quiet/end the mind). However most don't even realize it. Disagreements, theories and arguments are the result. Mind then gets more agitated. The grip of maya thus holds the mind in shackles.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
The only solution to just BE in the NOW is to become an "idiot".
"Ignorance is bliss" is actually a true statement.
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Sri a-TB sir,

I was a physicist once, so let me explain the way I always think. First, what is Brahman? There are two fold explanations, the existence of such an entity and so, then what is the nature of such an entity.
+++ There have been a few ex-physics members (like Mr tks) and my interactions have been productive and positive. I can already see a lucid style to your responses.

The existence of Brahman is very obvious. If one accepts science, the validity of ‘big bang’ theory, for it to have happened, creating both space and time, there must have been a cause. To me that cause is called Brahman. Even if one does not accept the ‘big bang’, one still needs to explain the existence of the physical universe we see and again, one needs to explain the cause.

+++ 'Happened' is in time and so can one really talk about 'before' big bang which means time is already present? Similarly the idea of cause assumes time and time itself is not created. So the language and our model of cause -effect will fail in trying to reason that there must be a cause. The root cause if we can even accept a cause being Brahman, has to be causeless cause. Why not say the laws of nature are all causeless cause and assign a single entity that is not descripable as the that causeless entity.

Assuming big bang theory is ultimate though in Science new theories are possible, no one can say what caused it because the time element itself is not created by the big bang, So the existence of Brahman is not obvious.

Physical universe is explained by big bang and no one knows what caused it


So, then what is the nature of such an entity? Here, we can not use science to understand the nature. Because we are the ones that observe with our five senses to collect data, are ourselves part of the system. There is a well known theory that says that one can not understand what is outside an enclosed system, being part of the system. So, we can not perceive the nature of creator with our outwardly turned mind and senses.
+++ This assumes a creator. If it is not an assumption based on our limited data how is this assumption validated?

But, then, as luck would have it, if we turn our focus inwards, through our mind, it is found that, we can indeed ‘know’ that creator. This is the concept of Advaitha.

+++ So you say Advita is a mental concept. Is that right? How can mind come up with a concept of something that is superior to it. You are in a closed system borrowing your statements elsewhere I think. How does the mind know outside the closed system it is in?

But other ‘faiths’ say that there is a God as separate entity outside our universe who is all powerful, most excellent etc. But to ‘know’ that entity one has to wait till the end of time, when based on merits and demerits, one gets either eternal happiness or eternal suffering.

So, for my make up Advaitha makes sense. Not only because I am mentally constituted to like it, but because my genes come from a line of my ancestors who were all Advaithins and we all know how such ancestral thinking and behavior affect as to who we are today.

+++ Is the ultimate truth is based on our likes and dislikes?
Can we really extrapolate assumptions arising from multiplicity like ancestors and project to say the truth which is non-dual?



Secondly, Advaitha claims that one need not wait till the end of time to be in an eternal happy state, you can do it here and now. How? By understanding who we really are, that is permanent, that is universal and timeless. This is Brahman. Now, without going in to details about Maya, Atma, Ishwara, Karma, Dharma etc., to accept this lofty claim, one just needs to look for evidence, whether there is anyone who is believable who claimed to have achieved such a state of bliss. To one’s astonishment, one finds that such people are there, throughout history, to the present time in all cultures.

+++ This I can resonate with the teaching that one can find happiness here and now based on the words of a teacher. But then that kind of happiness cannot be an experience. Because all experiences are limited in time. Claiming that to be timeless is just a belief.


So, if one believes this, one has to take ‘instructions’ from one of those. For me again, because of my make up, it is Ramana Maharishi. Others follow others. I have faith that my guru achieved such a state and so whatever teachings that come out of such a person will not lead me astray.

+++ One of the first book Mr Sangom recommended me was to read about Ramana Maharishi's teaching. I did but could not understand a lot. He did make certain things simple by asking to meditate on 'who am i'. I could not do that for too long. I could see simplicity and profundity in reading those conversations.

This is all I can say. I do not know about the validity or the non validity of any other path. But since I started this mental journey more than a decade ago, I can attest to the fact that I am more and more at peace within myself.

This is a very long post. But I thought we can have a starting point, while answering some of your questions. Thanks.

Thank you. I have provided in-line comments. I am not trying to be argumentative. I examine every sentence to understand and when I see issues there I have raised them above.
 

a-TB

Well-known member
Well..you proposed it..now you are retracting it..OMG ! You forgot you actually proposed it...get well soon.
Let me explain once more since I did not realize you are a practitioner of the proposal to become an idiot. Unfortunately there is still far too much intelligence left, so I was suggesting you a quick way - either prayer or a medical procedure LOL .. For prayer , do not forget to praise the deity LOL
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Let me explain once more since I did not realize you are a practitioner of the proposal to become an idiot. Unfortunately there is still far too much intelligence left, so I was suggesting you a quick way - either prayer or a medical procedure LOL .. For prayer , do not forget to praise the deity LOL
The snake and the rope effect.
You feel there is some intelligence left in a self proclaimed "idiot".
Turn on the light and see that only the " idiot" verily remains.

Yes! ALHAMDULLILAH
 

KRS

Well-known member
+++ There have been a few ex-physics members (like Mr tks) and my interactions have been productive and positive. I can already see a lucid style to your responses.
Thank you for the compliment.

+++ 'Happened' is in time and so can one really talk about 'before' big bang which means time is already present? Similarly the idea of cause assumes time and time itself is not created. So the language and our model of cause -effect will fail in trying to reason that there must be a cause. The root cause if we can even accept a cause being Brahman, has to be causeless cause. Why not say the laws of nature are all causeless cause and assign a single entity that is not descripable as the that causeless entity.
Current time estimate for the bang is 10 to the power of negative 43, which is not zero time. Science, I do not think can even postulate about what caused it. Again, I am free to postulate for myself that satisfies my mind.

Assuming big bang theory is ultimate though in Science new theories are possible, no one can say what caused it because the time element itself is not created by the big bang, So the existence of Brahman is not obvious.
Again, refer to the above statement. Absence of proof does not mean absence of postulation about a possibility.

Physical universe is explained by big bang and no one knows what caused it
Exactly.
+++ This assumes a creator. If it is not an assumption based on our limited data how is this assumption validated?
Science, as I said before can not validate something that is beyond our senses.

+++ So you say Advita is a mental concept. Is that right? How can mind come up with a concept of something that is superior to it. You are in a closed system borrowing your statements elsewhere I think. How does the mind know outside the closed system it is in?
This is where the theories of Atman, Sadhana, Purifying the mind, Nirguna Brahman, Ahamkara etc. come in. The fundamental assumption here is since our mind is powered by Atman (which is a localized Brahman), it can indeed be folded in to it. There are words of many who have attained this state.

+++ Is the ultimate truth is based on our likes and dislikes?
Can we really extrapolate assumptions arising from multiplicity like ancestors and project to say the truth which is non-dual?

The statement I made pertains only to explain why I might be attracted to Advaitha tradition and Ramana Maharishi. No likes and dislikes involved. Only to explain my choice over any other so called wisdom traditions.

+++ This I can resonate with the teaching that one can find happiness here and now based on the words of a teacher. But then that kind of happiness cannot be an experience. Because all experiences are limited in time. Claiming that to be timeless is just a belief.
Advaitha says Sat Chit Ananda is not an experience that has the usual Subject/Object relationship. It is a case where experience and the experiences are the same. Again, this belief is attested by those who attained this state.

+++ One of the first book Mr Sangom recommended me was to read about Ramana Maharishi's teaching. I did but could not understand a lot. He did make certain things simple by asking to meditate on 'who am i'. I could not do that for too long. I could see simplicity and profundity in reading those conversations.
well, in our tradition, at the right time, if you are a seeker, a Guru, will appear, need not be in human form.

Thank you. I have provided in-line comments. I am not trying to be argumentative. I examine every sentence to understand and when I see issues there I have raised them above.
Thank you.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
I am no expert but just merely sharing some opinions.

There are multiple ways to reach the "Who am I " scenario.

1)By contemplating on the "Who am I " through a competent Guru (living or non-living) which would appear for a seeker with Shraddha.
It needs a lot of patience and "waiting"..its almost like Zen, where its a process of discovery which actually is going to be experience based finally and not really much of an evidence analytical based.
Here one needs utmost trust and faith in his Guru to proceed.
Some might ask "what if the Guru is a fake one"?
Well, for seeker who is having Shraddha he would be able to identify a real Guru from a false one.

The question "Who am I" actually does not have an answer to be uttered but it BECOMES...a state of Being rather than just a reply to a question.
In the state of Being even the question, the questioner, the answer and the process of answering ceases to exists.
In the whole process we are peeling layers to reveal what lies within the layers or like bursting a balloon and the air in the balloon has no separate existence from the atmosphere.
The "Who am I " method is universal and anyone from a theist to atheist or agnostic can access it because there isn't much emphasis on a personal God.

2)The other way which is a tad easier is worshipping God.
When we worship God as in an external One, we do not focus on ourselves at least for a few seconds during prayer.
This process does involve seeking favors or pardon or begging for help or praising.
Even though it could be a desire based process but at least for a few seconds during prayer while praising God the thoughts have a One pointedness moment be it even 5 seconds.

Eventually the time span of the One pointedness increases and one might even not feel the time axis anymore that is the person is in the NOW.
This is where all the layers we built around ourselves get broken down layer by layer and again its like the balloon bursting and the air inside of it has no separate existence from the atmosphere.



I happened to see a video where a tribe from Africa who are hunter-gatherers were interviewed.
Their answers were so so focused.
They were asked:

1)What is happiness for you?

Reply : Meat and honey.

2)What happens after death?

Reply: We leave the dead in a deep cave and move on.


3)Where do they go after death? Heaven ??

Reply: They go back to the Sun like all things that came from it and returns to it.


4)What is your greatest fear?

Reply : If you are asking about my greatest fear here, then my answer is the Lion.


5)What does the Moon mean to you?

Reply : Nothing! But on full moon nights its too bright and we can't hunt well at night because we would be easily seen by the animals.




I felt the answers were very focused and direct to the point.
Learnt a lot from that video.
 
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