Why My Father Hated India: An Indian's Point of View

[Raghy]

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Raghy, Mbeke and Zuma may be flawed, but I think Mandela has set SA on a liberal democratic course with no designs for regional hegemony. IMO, the world will be a better place if the long oppressed are united and stand against the expansion of the neocolonialist powers. K, sad to see Canada turning abruptly to the right , otherwise, I would have included Canada with Brazil, SA, and Turkey.

Cheers!

Sorry! My fault. I took SA as Saudi Arabia. I could not even comprehend that. My mistake. South Africa... Yes, I quite agree. Indians do have a strong link with South Africa.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

I agree with the writer on the point where he says "This army, whose might has always been justified by the imaginary threat from India ".

What perhaps Mr. Tasseer left out to say is "This army, which has lost all the three wars it fought with India in its history of existence so far,...... imaginary threat from India."

 

[suraju06]

I have come across this kind of lamenting any number of times in Indian media as well international media. These are usually articles written by Pakistanis or Indians-this includes half Pakistanis and half Indians also as Mr. Taseer- who have nostalgic memories as well as bhai bhai spirit handed down by their parents. But at the end of the day if there is a border skirmish between India and Pakistan these same people will cry Pakistan Murdabad or Hindustan (Please note that it is not Bharath or India) Murdabad. For the younger generation -the generation which came after the 1950s-there is no such emotional hangovers or hypocrisy. As far as we are concerned Pakistan is just a neighbour. Its culture and Indian culture may be same for historic reasons but that is not of any consequence now. We have Srilanka, Myanmar, Nepal, Malaysia etc who also have many common features in their culture as ours. So, for me, Pakistan is just another country in the world competing with India for name, fame and a place in the firmament of nations of the world. If they fire a few rockets(as a fire work to celebrate the visit of a chinese dignitary to their country) into Indian territory India will respond with a few rockets fired into their territory without any hesitation. If they threaten India on any vital issue saying ominously that they have an atom bomb and so the decision of India in the resolution of the issue may result in 'unimaginable catastrophe' (thereby indicating the use of the nuclear weapon), India should call the bluff and tell them that India won't mind the catastrophe as India is large and has depth. They should be told in clear words(and this should be made known to the world) that at the end of a nuclear exchange, if they are stupid enough to engage in it, half of India would be still in tact whereas Pakistan would have vanished from the face of the earth (this is exactly what Mao Zedong said to his far superior enemies when China was threatened with a nuclear strike). We want to live in peace as a neighbour only as long as this desire is shared by them.

Pakistan's problems are its society and its military. A society which is feudal in its structure, which is steeped in extreme religious obscurantism can only have such a troubled existence. Leaving the plains of punjab and the sindh the rest of Pakistan is a huge tribal society where tribal loyalties are stronger than loyalty to the nation. In these tribes, to have a gun is the first fervent aspiration of a young boy who is entering adulthood. Here a simple repartee between groups of friends can quickly deteriorate into fisticufs and into a gun-fight. Value of human life is recognized only when you become a 'shaheed'. The only entity which can change this situation and bring modern outlook and education to the people is Government of the day. This brings us to the second player-the army because in Pakistan Army and Government are inseparable. The army in Pakistan is not just the army. It is also an all powerful political party though it would not call itself that. So governance suffers and politics is played out. From Brigadier to General every rank is an opportunity to enrich oneself and every young man aspires to become at least a Brigadier or a Lt. Colonel before he retires or dies in operations.

India's relations with Pakistan will improve only when Pakistan is able to solve its internal predicaments. Kashmir is a solvable problem and both the countries know the solution. But first things first. And we wait for that. US cannot solve the problem because Pakistan is a spoilt child which can shoot its patron saint without any remorse and India is a grown up matured son who is too independent. If you want proof -- from the hearty laugh at the 'famous' tilt of Nixon during the B/Desh war when the American Gun boats were hovering in the horizon in the Bay of Bengal,from the stubborn opposition to the Vietnam's My-Lai and other carnages, from the 'inflexibility' in the matter of 'nuclear liability' question which is a thorn on the American Corporate Flesh, to the latest rejection of offer of American Fighter Planes for the IAF, a whole lot of these proofs are available. You have only to look for them. And most of this 'temerity' has been shown by 'weak' Governments in New Delhi! That shows the Matured son's level of self-confidence and maturity.

Cheers.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

I expected the punch line for India to be - Look at the educated, self-loathing, white-skin-worshiping Indians with identity crisis !

The focus of my message is neither on God nor on Indians. It was to support the view expressed by Amala about Pakistan. That is why the punch line was on neighbours.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Nara:

Your historical narration and perspectives are spot on...I like them all, except a few disagreement in bold letters below:

Dear Y,

This article misses several important factors that contributed to the present sorry state. But first, I have met and interacted with several Pakistanis in the U.S. Almost as a rule they are very happy to see another person from the subcontinent. I have never met a Pakistani when I was in India, so I have no idea about Paksitanis there, but outside of the continent, the ordinary Pakistani sees us as brothers and sisters. In my experience they are as nice or as nasty as anyone else, no more, no less.

Y, we are probably not going to agree, the most important factor for the mess we see in South Asia is the cold war. U.S. saw the friendship between India and USSR as a major threat for their global dominance. They looked to Pakistan to keep India down. The close relationship between U.S. and Pakistan goes as far back as the early years of independence. The US spy plane, U2, that flew over the USSR, including the one that was shot down, took off from Pakistan.

Pakistan was and still is in many respects, a U.S. client state. U.S. never cared for democracy or human rights of the Pakistani people, all they cared about was geo-political dominance their $ can buy out of the greedy Pakistani generals. Military coup, no problem, go for it, just as long as the general who came to power will do what U.S. wanted. The inevitable result of this policy was General Zia.

IMO, the turning point was Zia's ascension to power, not 1990s. He is the one who turned Pakistan into a Sharia based, Saudi/Salafi form of extreme and backward Islamic state. The assassination of Salman Taseer is directly linked to Zia, the one who enacted the Blasphemy Law.

Taseer, his tweet not withstanding, seems to be a liberal, moderate, sensible person with compassion in his heart for the poor and oppressed. Here is an interview of his daughter in which she describes her father in a more detailed nuanced way. It seems one of his first acts after coming to power was to take his daughter to visit Mukhtar Mai, a poor and illiterate woman who was gang raped on the order of the religious village elders . A short passage from the interview:

"But when the PPP government came to power, my father’s first official visit as governor was to Mukhtar Mai and to lend his support to this woman. And so, we went to the village, and he—he had been helping her fundraise for some schools that she was setting up. And it was really nice. He asked her to put her hand on my head in front of the entire village so that—you know, so that I could have a semblance of the courage that she has."

​

This man was killed because he dared to stand up to the religious bullies, the bullies who were nurtured by Zia, a beneficiary of unquestioned U.S. support.

Now U.S. has an impossible situation in Pakistan and wants India's help to somehow mitigate the situation. Where were these U.S. politicians when India was constantly terrorized by the Pakistan based, ISI supported terrorists? Now, U.S. sees terror emanating from Pakistan and they want India to help.

US has lately realized that Pakistan is using part of their military aids to use against India in creating more mayhem at the border and to send ISI surrogates to penetrate India for terrorist activities; US also feels the growing influence of China in Pakistan's long term Strategic Thinking... In short, Pakistan wants to get favors from both US and China in harming India, IMO.

But, India's hands are not clean either. Kashmir will remain an albatross around their neck. Their brutal policies in Kashmir has alienated them from the local population beyond repair. Further, India seems to have designs for regional hegemony. This can never be in the modern world. There is more to gain by learning to treat all its neighbors with respect. To want to be a big brother will never work and will only cause grief for all.

To play a positive role in the subcontinent, India must first distance itself from the U.S. and try to plot an independent course joining hands with states like Brazil, SA, and Turkey. But, those who are running India, UPA or NDA, both are more than willing to be a U.S. vassal, as long as they can get a seat at UNSC or be able to set up nuclear power stations even by if it means exposing poor Indians to risks worse than Bhopal with no liability protection.

India is already reluctant in forging a long term Strategic Partnership with the US...look at China, with all the fundamental differences in ideology, she is is embracing US warmly for its Capitalism.. consequently, the FDI and FII in China is increasing by the week, and millions of poor Chinese are lifted away from abject poverty. In 1980, the per capita GDP of India and China was nearly the same; today, Chinese are 3X ahead of India. Their infrastructure modernization is envy of all the Third World.. my anxiety has been if China can thrive well with a business partnership with the US, why not India the largest democracy in the world?

Somehow, I feel, either a truly independent India or in alliance with Brazil, SA and Turkey will not foster an economic growth and prosperity to equal China - the Dragon breathing on our NE border. Yes, I am always comparing India with China: one has a chaotic multi-party Democracy and the other has the mighty Communist Autocracy. Who can prosper better and pull more people out of abject poverty?

The WSJ Op-ed is fatally flawed as it fails to say anything about the nefarious designs of U.S. It seems as though the author was either ignorant or was constrained by the editorial POV of WSJ. With the present U.S. policy in South Asia, and India's dog-like subservience to U.S., I can only see dark clouds ahead for the ordinary peoples of India and Pakistan.

Cheers?

Cheers.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Dear Shri.Y,

Though Economics and Business are my favourite topics, we seldom find discussion on these issues in this forum. But today you have touched them lightly in your post.

Do you really think that FDI and FII can lift people from poverty?
Please see this: [h=2]Economic reform to reform of economics [/h]

 

[Yamaka]

I have come across this kind of lamenting any number of times in Indian media as well international media. These are usually articles written by Pakistanis or Indians-this includes half Pakistanis and half Indians also as Mr. Taseer- who have nostalgic memories as well as bhai bhai spirit handed down by their parents. But at the end of the day if there is a border skirmish between India and Pakistan these same people will cry Pakistan Murdabad or Hindustan (Please note that it is not Bharath or India) Murdabad. For the younger generation -the generation which came after the 1950s-there is no such emotional hangovers or hypocrisy. As far as we are concerned Pakistan is just a neighbour. Its culture and Indian culture may be same for historic reasons but that is not of any consequence now. We have Srilanka, Myanmar, Nepal, Malaysia etc who also have many common features in their culture as ours. So, for me, Pakistan is just another country in the world competing with India for name, fame and a place in the firmament of nations of the world. If they fire a few rockets(as a fire work to celebrate the visit of a chinese dignitary to their country) into Indian territory India will respond with a few rockets fired into their territory without any hesitation. If they threaten India on any vital issue saying ominously that they have an atom bomb and so the decision of India in the resolution of the issue may result in 'unimaginable catastrophe' (thereby indicating the use of the nuclear weapon), India should call the bluff and tell them that India won't mind the catastrophe as India is large and has depth. They should be told in clear words(and this should be made known to the world) that at the end of a nuclear exchange, if they are stupid enough to engage in it, half of India would be still in tact whereas Pakistan would have vanished from the face of the earth (this is exactly what Mao Zedong said to his far superior enemies when China was threatened with a nuclear strike). We want to live in peace as a neighbour only as long as this desire is shared by them.

Pakistan's problems are its society and its military. A society which is feudal in its structure, which is steeped in extreme religious obscurantism can only have such a troubled existence. Leaving the plains of punjab and the sindh the rest of Pakistan is a huge tribal society where tribal loyalties are stronger than loyalty to the nation. In these tribes, to have a gun is the first fervent aspiration of a young boy who is entering adulthood. Here a simple repartee between groups of friends can quickly deteriorate into fisticufs and into a gun-fight. Value of human life is recognized only when you become a 'shaheed'. The only entity which can change this situation and bring modern outlook and education to the people is Government of the day. This brings us to the second player-the army because in Pakistan Army and Government are inseparable. The army in Pakistan is not just the army. It is also an all powerful political party though it would not call itself that. So governance suffers and politics is played out. From Brigadier to General every rank is an opportunity to enrich oneself and every young man aspires to become at least a Brigadier or a Lt. Colonel before he retires or dies in operations.

India's relations with Pakistan will improve only when Pakistan is able to solve its internal predicaments. Kashmir is a solvable problem and both the countries know the solution. But first things first. And we wait for that. US cannot solve the problem because Pakistan is a spoilt child which can shoot its patron saint without any remorse and India is a grown up matured son who is too independent. If you want proof -- from the hearty laugh at the 'famous' tilt of Nixon during the B/Desh war when the American Gun boats were hovering in the horizon in the Bay of Bengal,from the stubborn opposition to the Vietnam's My-Lai and other carnages, from the 'inflexibility' in the matter of 'nuclear liability' question which is a thorn on the American Corporate Flesh, to the latest rejection of offer of American Fighter Planes for the IAF, a whole lot of these proofs are available. You have only to look for them. And most of this 'temerity' has been shown by 'weak' Governments in New Delhi! That shows the Matured son's level of self-confidence and maturity.

Cheers.

Dear Raju:

As Hillary Clinton said very recently, I think that India needs to take a leadership role in South Asia and East Asia as a whole, even helping Pakistan to stabilize and forge an economic partnership with India.

Yes, Pakistan is brutally divided internally by a blood-thirsty feudal culture & Talibanism and a moderate modern Islamic society who believes in women's right and modernity. The ISI and the Military is also divided on those two extremes. The founding fathers of Independent Pakistan never envisioned such a dichotomy in social and political life. What's the way forward?

Yes, neither NDA nor UPA Coalition politicians are eager to cure the cancer in Kashmir. Pakistan and China eye to share Kashmir for their own!

Yes, India's ideological enemy China is growing in leaps and bounds by their Strategic Partnership with US and other countries.

Now, what should India do in the next 20 years?

Status Quo.... or taking positive bold steps to take a leadership role in S and E Asia?

India is constrained only by her own Strategic Vision - Whether she wants to be the author of her own destiny?

Cheers.

 

[srinikarthik]

Forging a better relationship doesn't mean "helping the other guy". It is mutually beneficial for a country to have good neighbours.

All this "we can't patch up, past is past" ignores history. Europe was once divided, remember? Even India was united under Guptas, broke up, united under other regimes, broke up, and finally united under democracy. Political maps always change. It takes only a couple of smart visionary politicians on either side.

As I said before, people are never the problem in geopolitics. It is the politicians. A handful of them.

And BJP needs better leaders. The older ones should retire or be retired at once. Advani is a major liability for BJP these years. Putting down diverse opinions (Uma Bharti or Jaswant Singh) is reminiscent of what Congress does.

Agreed Doc however I will still stick to my thoughts.

According for friendship you need two people to think in same thoughts. Sadely the population of India and Pakistan has been like this for more than 5 decades. Even if the polititions try to resolve the issue the people will not accept.

Ask anyone who has been a part of partition. They will never agree to these thoughts.

 

[kunjuppu]

Siva,

To answer your question, ‘it all depends’, on how wisely we manage the money coming in.

Recently there was a report in the Toronto globe, that the Chinese listings in ny stock exchange are spurious or second rate companies. The best companies are reserved for shanghai or hong kong SEs.

China, I think, has drawn out the best out of the west in terms of money, technology and utilized very cleverly by disregarding copyright rules, blatant copying and cheating when warranted, and artificially keeping the currency at a level, that would evoke no competitive pricing from anywhere in the world, developed or otherwise.

What the west did not realize, is that for the savings of pennies in manufacturing costs, they literally gave away centuries based knowledge and know hows.

Ofcourse nothing to beat, the American bell labs selling transistor technology to the Japanese for 25 million, and witnessing the steady destruction of small electronics and appliance industry in the usa.

The Chinese are doing the same thing on a grander scale. Airbus is building a factory in china to assemble A320 their most popular model. What they don’t know or cant do anything about, is the copycat factory being built across the road, and which will make Chinese made 320 for half the price, and just as good initially, and better, later on.

So, to start off this discussion on economics and finance, india has a golden chance to repeat china’s tactics to uplift the masses.

Whether we have the political will, and the determination and vision, it is debatable.

Corruption I am not including here. Our corruption is nothing compared to the scale and volume that is in china. I think so.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Yamaka,
Your views in #30 above and my comments:

US has lately realized that Pakistan is using part of their military aids to use against India in creating more mayhem at the border and to send ISI surrogates to penetrate India for terrorist activities; US also feels the growing influence of China in Pakistan's long term Strategic Thinking... In short, Pakistan wants to get favors from both US and China in harming India, IMO.

Are you sure it is only lately that this is happening? I think this has been happening all along. Have you forgotten Patton Tanks and Sabre jets lost by Pakistan in its wars with India in the 60s and 70s? China's friendship with Pak is , as they call it, an all-weather friendship.We can not forget that China made noises during the Bangladesh war saying Indian shepherds were grazing in the Chinese land area crossing the international border. It required a stern message from Soviet Union to China to make them forget the shepherds. Times have changed and much water has flown down Volga and Ganges. Soviet Union is not there and now India is a nuclear power. So Pak had to acquire nuclear parity with Chinese/American help. When Nukes did not give Pak any offensive capabilities(because of balance of terror) they had to stoop down to pin pricks. While Pak had been spending all its resources and energies in this childish game of one-up-man-ship, India quitely moved ahead and transformed itself into an economic power to reckon with. Now US wakes up to the realities and wants to change track. The US played a dirty game so far (recall the words of Mr SK Chavan, a minister in Narasimha Rao Govt-"India can bomb Pak and solve the problem once for all but for the threat of reprisals from not Pak but US") Now they want to change. India will take its own time to assess the sincerety.

India is already reluctant in forging a long term Strategic Partnership with the US...look at China, with all the fundamental differences in ideology, she is is embracing US warmly for its Capitalism.. consequently, the FDI and FII in China is increasing by the week, and millions of poor Chinese are lifted away from abject poverty. In 1980, the per capita GDP of India and China was nearly the same; today, Chinese are 3X ahead of India. Their infrastructure modernization is envy of all the Third World.. my anxiety has been if China can thrive well with a business partnership with the US, why not India the largest democracy in the world?

India is reluctant because of its past bitter experiences. It would like to move at a measured pace without sacrificing its vital interests. China's calculations are different.;It knows it is not yet strong enough to challenge the super power and may never reach that stage either. China's interest in keeping the US economy going is in its own interest and that is the reason why it has invested heavily into the treasury papers of US. It is a sovereign debt though return is poor. The poor return is the sacrifice that China has made to keep the dollar where it is. FDIs certainly help in the economic growth of the country in which these investments are made. But FIIs are hot money brought in to make a killing quickly and leave as quickly as they came leaving the recipient country to hold the baby. India encourages FIIs and FDIs subject to certain safeguards.India's GDP growth is steady though not spectacular.

Somehow, I feel, either a truly independent India or in alliance with Brazil, SA and Turkey will not foster an economic growth and prosperity to equal China - the Dragon breathing on our NE border. Yes, I am always comparing India with China: one has a chaotic multi-party Democracy and the other has the mighty Communist Autocracy. Who can prosper better and pull more people out of abject poverty?

India is doing well.We do not allow the script of our growth story to be written by any one else. India, because of its history, culture and civilizational values can not have an autocratic set up. Chinese are different. As a matured democracy we took the right steps in the past and are taking them in the present also. India's story has all the ingradients of a success story. ;Doubting Thomases always will doubt. But then they make the story interesting. Don't they?

Cheers

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Shri.Y,

Though Economics and Business are my favourite topics, we seldom find discussion on these issues in this forum. But today you have touched them lightly in your post.

Do you really think that FDI and FII can lift people from poverty?
Please see this: [h=2]Economic reform to reform of economics [/h]

Dear Haridasa:

As I have said elsewhere, I used to be a Socialist in college.. preaching that the Govt should give EVERYBODY everything needed to live in the Society... never once thinking who's going to finance it!

After picking up an MBA here in my late 40s, I started appreciating certain principles of capitalism and financing of basic services of the Society via taxation or debt financing.

I read Gurumuthy's commentary on Reforming Economics.. he has some valid observations. I wish he compared and contrasted the growth of India and China since 1980.

One glaring difference is, although India and China had a very similar per capita GDP in 1980, today the difference is 3X in China's favor. There are distinct policy differences between the two during this period:

1. China opted for an Export Economy, as Japan and Germany did soon after WW II. All these countries invited FDI and FII from the rest of the world (mostly from the US) to run their economy which created enormous wealth and brought millions of people up from abject poverty (in China, nearly 300 million people have been lifted out of the hell holes of poverty).

India imports more than she exports..

2. China understands the importance of Infrastructure Modernization.. she has already undertaken massive projects and the world is seeing their progress in awe (their Olympic 2008 was a Spectacular Event to showcase their ability).

India is limping and still writing proposals on paper... granted a few Major Highways are built in Chennai and elsewhere.

Capitalism need not be a dirty word, IMO.. after all is said and done, we need Capital to start massive projects and to create jobs for both professionals and labor. It's good to know India saves nearly 35% of her income...that's still not enough, if the income is low. It's estimated that 70% of the GDP is income: if the per capita GDP is $1200 (official rate), then per capita income is $840 per year, which is very very low, IMO.

Gurumurthy talks about the problems in US and Europe.. Yes, we had Tech Bubble Burst in 2000 and Financial Tsunami in 2008. The former was due to excessive investments in technology sector (the NASDAG Index fell from about 5000 to about 2000) by private investors, and the latter was due to the toxic derivatives (CDOs, CMOs and SWAPs) created by the unsupervised private financial sector. Such things could still very well happen in India and China - the fastest growing economies... I believe the private markets will experiment with new ideas and products... some will succeed and some could fail spectacularly.. that's not the failure of the economics; I should say in both cases, the Free Market worked at the end of the day. Watch out for a sudden collapse of the Real Estate market in India and China... it happened in Japan and the US already.

I strongly believe that India must attract more FDI and FII to super-charge the economy and stimulate internal consumption more.

For India's economy caters to only about 300 million of the upper crest, while the bottom 900 millions are largely ignored.

More later.

Cheers.

 

[talwan]

India has a Defenite potential to lead the way in Asia.A strong political will alone can take the lead.Unfortunately Our Plitical Leadership is week.They even cannot Condemn a Terrorist Attack.Our Leaders claim we are99% contained Terrorism.1% remains.Other Leader Tells Since 2008 (WHEN I BECAME HM)No major Incidents of Terro.He also claims It is Intelligence Lack.
We are Debating as on Dtae whom to include in Lok Pal.We are still Dodging the Court on BlackMoney.Our PM is not able to Do change His Ministry as per His Prerogative.
If we want to lead from front these leaders should Change or sent out.
Jai Hind.
alwan

 

[suraju06]

Dear Yamaka,

As Hillary Clinton said very recently, I think that India needs to take a leadership role in South Asia and East Asia as a whole, even helping Pakistan to stabilize and forge an economic partnership with India.

It is not enough if US wants it that way. Pakistan is already doing whatever it can do to prevent India a permanent membership in security council. If only Pak can forget the animosity and forge a friendship with India the whole situation in Asia and the world will change dramatically. But it requires far-sight and we dont know whether Pak has that.

Yes, Pakistan is brutally divided internally by a blood-thirsty feudal culture & Talibanism and a moderate modern Islamic society who believes in women's right and modernity. The ISI and the Military is also divided on those two extremes. The founding fathers of Independent Pakistan never envisioned such a dichotomy in social and political life. What's the way forward?

The way forward will involve Pak realising the situation and taking steps. Once that happens India can lend a helping hand.

Yes, neither NDA nor UPA Coalition politicians are eager to cure the cancer in Kashmir. Pakistan and China eye to share Kashmir for their own!

Every one is keen to solve the problem. It is only Pak and its paid aagents in Kashmir who do not allow that to happen.

Yes, India's ideological enemy China is growing in leaps and bounds by their Strategic Partnership with US and other countries.

Ideological enemy? What does that mean?
Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Yamaka,



It is not enough if US wants it that way. Pakistan is already doing whatever it can do to prevent India a permanent membership in security council. If only Pak can forget the animosity and forge a friendship with India the whole situation in Asia and the world will change dramatically. But it requires far-sight and we dont know whether Pak has that.



The way forward will involve Pak realising the situation and taking steps. Once that happens India can lend a helping hand.



Every one is keen to solve the problem. It is only Pak and its paid aagents in Kashmir who do not allow that to happen.



Ideological enemy? What does that mean?
Cheers.

By ideological "enemy", I mean

India's Multi-Party Democracy Vs China's Single Party Autocracy.

Ideally speaking, a Multi-Party Democracy should facilitate multiple newer ideas come to the top freely which will solve problems easily and to leap forward better than a Single Party approach.

In reality, what's happening?

Cheers.

ps. Chinese Communist Party has about 80 million membership.. they say that inside their Single Party, there is robust political activism to encourage multiple points of view; they debate in their Committees thoroughly ALL political options and bring forth the BEST option available, and they implement it very effectively very fast. It appears we have at one end Multi-Party Parliamentary Democracy as in India and the other end a Single Party Autocracy as in China, and the US falls in between with just two Parties... who can deliver the goods to the Society, more effectively? That's the ideological battle I was referring to.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Yamaka,

As I have said elsewhere, I used to be a Socialist in college.. preaching that the Govt should give EVERYBODY everything needed to live in the Society... never once thinking who's going to finance it!

Every thinking young man is a socialist. Socialism never says Govt should give everybody everything. Rather it says each contribute according to his ability and each take according to his needs. That is not a bad thing at all.

Yes, we had Tech Bubble Burst in 2000 and Financial Tsunami in 2008. The former was due to excessive investments in technology sector (the NASDAG Index fell from about 5000 to about 2000) by private investors, and the latter was due to the toxic derivatives (CDOs, CMOs and SWAPs) created by the unsupervised private financial sector.

"Unsupervised private financial sector"? I dont understand what do you mean by this. I think it would be more appropriate to call them unscrupulous financial institutions which converted their bad assets into "liabilities' without any assurance. The unrestrained greed for profit was the motivating force behind the Tsunami.

Such things could still very well happen in India and China - the fastest growing economies... I believe the private markets will experiment with new ideas and products... some will succeed and some could fail spectacularly.. that's not the failure of the economics;

Such things can happen in India too if we become greedy like Americans.

I should say in both cases, the Free Market worked at the end of the day. Watch out for a sudden collapse of the Real Estate market in India and China... it happened in Japan and the US already.

Free market did not work in US. It ended up in life's entire savings getting wiped out without any trace other than the junk bonds held in the case of many investors. There were enough warnings in the air which were all ignored.

I strongly believe that India must attract more FDI and FII to super-charge the economy and stimulate internal consumption more.
For India's economy caters to only about 300 million of the upper crest, while the bottom 900 millions are largely ignored.

Indians are very smart. They will accept FIIs as well as FDIs in select areas of economy subject to certain conditions. Otherwise they know very well that they will be left to rely on pledging their family jewels again with the Central Bank of Britain.
Cheers.

 

[Nara]

Dear Y, peoples of South Asia are largely of the same ethnic stock, though there are some pockets of significant diversity. Yet, the region is mired in religious hatred rooted in ignorance.

In this respect I wish to point to a poignant story from your backyard. The State of Texas executed Mark Stroman, a self described Arab Slayer. He was so ignorant he could not tell a Bangaladeshi from an Arab.

One of the victims of his shooting spree that killed two others, Rais Bhuiyan, survived though blinded in one eye. A Muslim immigrant from Bangladesh not only forgave the killer, but worked hard to stop the execution. The killer himself was so moved by the forgiveness and love the victim showed, that the killer was transformed and offered a message of peace before he was murdered by the State of Texas. Here is what Stroman said in an interview in the lead up to his execution.

"In the free world, I was free but I was locked in a prison inside myself because of the hate I carried in my heart,....It is due to Rais' message of forgiveness that I am more content now than I have ever been."

​

For more click here.

Kashmir problem can be easily solved if only the Indians and Pakistanis let the Kashmiries alone and not make a pawn out of them. Who will dare to think outside the box? No chance, Indian politicians are just as much a bunch of dishonest and self-serving leaches as the U.S. ones.

Cheers?

 

[biswa]

Pakis are haters, as simple as that. Always have an inferiority complex regarding big brother India. Just scan a few internet forums to confirm this behavior.

 

[Yamaka]

Pakis are haters, as simple as that. Always have an inferiority complex regarding big brother India. Just scan a few internet forums to confirm this behavior.

Not all Pakistanis are haters; there are some, but many are eager to travel across and do business and cultural and sports activities...

I don't know about inferiority complex and all those parameters... we are all from the same ethnic stock; many of our senior political leaders were born and brought up in the current Punjab and Sind provinces of Pakistan.

We need to bring down the political rhetoric down whenever possible, IMO.

What's the "Big Brother" going to do going forward? Status Quo... ? A totally failed Pakistan will be a serious threat to India's Peace, believe me.

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

"Kashmir problem can be easily solved if only the Indians and Pakistanis let the Kashmiries alone and not make a pawn out of them. Who will dare to think outside the box? No chance, Indian politicians are just as much a bunch of dishonest and self-serving leaches as the U.S. ones." - Nara wrote.

Dear Nara:

What's the way to break the dead lock? No way at all??

When there is movement to curb corruption at high levels by Anna Hazere et al.. why not a movement to solve Kashmir issue?

Why there is no appetite among the students, workers and professionals?

Cheers.

 

[Nara]

...What's the way to break the dead lock? No way at all??

Y, the outlook right now is quite bleak. Otherwise rational and nice people somehow transform into serious haters when it comes to Pakistan. An ordinary Pakistani is more likely to face terrorism than an average Indian, yet, Indians hate Pakistanis as though their patriotism depended on it.

Recently I saw a movie Ramchand Paksitani, based on a true story. A Dalit Hindu Pakistani father and son accidentally stray into Indian territory and spend five years in Indian prison before reuniting with the family.

There are enough ordinary people with common decency on both sides, but, unfortunately, it does not take more than just a handful of hatemongers, both Muslim and Hindu, to whip up hatred. Given the uninspiring politicians in India and the U.S., the immediate future is quite bleak.

My hope is, in the long term, these things will work out on the side of justice. There was a time when Rhodesia seemed etched in stone, only to be transformed into Zimbabwe -- the present situation not withstanding. Who in their right mind during Reagan era would have predicted Apartheid will come to an end in our life time? The Israeli brutality upon the Palestinians will also come to an end one way or another. Similarly, the arc of history will bend towards justice for ordinary Kashmiris as well, sooner or later.

Cheers!

 

[Haridasa Siva]

I thank Messrs.K,Y and Raju for their observations on Indian Economy. Quite interesting. I think India's policy on FDI/FII is not that bad. Corruption and red-tapism are the impediments for our growth. Talking of capitalism, I think once a person is rich, he/she tends to support capitalism (to justify one's wealth?) Capitalism is needed to drive growth. But with a huge population BPL, capitalism could have its risks too. It depends on the rulers, the hope for which at present is bleak.

 

[DrBarani]

I thank Messrs.K,Y and Raju for their observations on Indian Economy. Quite interesting. I think India's policy on FDI/FII is not that bad. Corruption and red-tapism are the impediments for our growth. Talking of capitalism, I think once a person is rich, he/she tends to support capitalism (to justify one's wealth?) Capitalism is needed to drive growth. But with a huge population BPL, capitalism could have its risks too. It depends on the rulers, the hope for which at present is bleak.

Problems with capitalism are inherent:

1. It assumes unlimited resources/ supply of materials

2. It assumes that competition can quickly bring down prices to help consumer, which isn't true, as it fails to consider the phase lag between demand and creation of new manufacturing entities to meet the demand.

3. It fails to consider that businesses fix the price of a commodity at the highest end of the affordability spectrum, not the lowest end. For example, you are happy to buy gas at $1 per gallon. You are angry to buy it at $4. But you will refuse to buy it only at $6. Therefore, the oil companies will price it at $5. After all, almost all of the oil companies are monopolised by a few, and you and I cannot go and start an oil company overnight. So, where is the free market capitalism there? It doesn't exist.

I have earlier proposed my own theory of markets. I called it "Chartism". Free Market works when prices are falling (chart shows falling prices). Regulatory controls work when prices are going up. Both are required. I don't see Socialists whining about Capitalists as much as the Capitalists whining about Socialists.

 

[Yamaka]

What's that the Former Socialist (Y) likes about the Current (American) Capitalism?


1. Capitalism encourages savings and investments, granted low income people can't save much. Therefore, poor people need not like Capitalism; in fact, they all hate it... I also favor no sales tax or VAT on food, medicine and basic clothing - these taxes affect the poor very badly... If there is general tax, then it must be returned back to the poor via Refundable Tax Credit, Child-Care Credit for low income, Food Stamps and other subsidies and "freebees" aimed at the poor, which is a family making about $25,000 per family of four ((India has similar equivalent levels).

2. When an "idea person" comes up with a brand new idea, he/she needs Capital to convert the idea into action.. this could be anything from new iPad or new ways of retailing (like Walmart) or communication (5G Wireless), or transportation (like $1200 car - Nano) or any such thing...Capital markets (primary Investment Bankers, Venture Capitalists, Angel Investors, Bond buyers etc) provide this to this new "idea person" for a price.

What should be the cost of the Capital? I will say it should be = Risk free rate (like 10 y T bond) + Risk Premium.

10 Y T is determined by private bond market daily, now it is about 3.8%. Risk Premium = About 4-8%, which can be established by negotiation.

The Capitalists (aka savers who could be regular folks with their pension and retirement funds, or active savers who forego current consumption so that she/he can consume later - allowing the saved money to grow using the concept of time value of money - aka compounding concept) expect also the so-called Capital Gains, which may or may not happen; in fact there may be a Capital Loss.. this is the RISK the savers take when they lend their money.

What's wrong with this, Socialists?

3. Prices adjust "quickly" depending on the supply and demand of the goods or services. There are sufficient number of suppliers. If supply is limited then this will not work, I admit. Prices WILL soar; that's what happens when monsoon fails for several years and no way to import food from outside every year.

4. All the Utilities (Electricity, Water and Cooking and Heating Gas) are fully regulated. Here the companies just can't make more than a set profit level (like 4-6% of their Capital Investment); Gov't Regulators are watching them very closely, which protects ALL consumers.

5. Whereever there is Capital Intensive Industries (like Petrol/Gas companies, Steel or Car), the Gov't sees that there are at least 3 players in each, so that they will compete TRULY among themselves to keep the prices reasonable.

Anti-Trust and Collusion Laws are already on the books and enforced with TEETH against these Industries if there is "price fixing".

Thus Capitalism protects the ordinary people AND allows the Capitalists to fund "the new idea person" to convert the new idea into new products and services.

Consequently, new businesses are formed, jobs are created constantly and EVERYONE is benefited.. in the end there is prosperity for ALL.

Now, where's the problem, Socialists?

Critique me constructively, please.

Thanks

Y

ps. New Capitalism in India and China is following American Capitalism mostly, with minor variations. I definitely favor private people's Right to Private Property and hate Central Planning and Gov't owning of all properties as per a form of the Communism.

 

[Nara]

....What's wrong with this, Socialists?

Y, we are not going to agree on this issue, but I think you are a fine person nevertheless.

I can't and don't speak for Socialists with a capital S, but I can present my views.

The Capitalism you describe is one that exists in text books.

First and foremost, for perfect capitalism to function the way it is sold we need stable and peaceful political environment. This means we need government intervention to one degree or another -- enter Socialism

Then, we need an enlightened community of capitalists who will not interfere in the political process and play by the rules established by that process. If anyone believes this can ever be true, then I have this beautiful bridge in NY city for sale, will sell at rock bottom price. The fact is the Capitalists (i) work nonstop to collude with each other to tilt the market pressures in their favor, and (ii) collectively buy the politicians to make rules that privatize profit and socialize loss.

You know, the recently released GOA audit of the Fed says the Fed gave out $16.1 trillion in emergency loans to U.S. and foreign financial institutions between Dec. 1, 2007 and July 21, 2010, all by a few strokes of a computer keyboard -- more here. That is 16.1 trillion, more than the GDP of the U.S.A., all given by one man, to rescue big banks who were gaming the system in the first place. This is the kind of Capitalism that can exist in reality, not the kind that exists in textbooks.

Finally, we need a fairly wise public who is able to make critical decisions that favor them in the long run. But, they are manipulated by big money interests to vote against their own self interest. Even the relatively less educated voters of Tamil Nadu saw through the freebees of DMK government and voted them out. But the U.S. voters can't seem to see beyond the one party system of democracy -- the party of Wall Street Corporate sycophants -- there are of course camps in this party, one calls themselves Republicans and the other Democrats, each falling over each other to please these barons without whose money they cannot keep the ignorant voters, well ignorant.

So, these mavens of free market Capitalism, one who will stop at nothing to privatize profit and socialize loss, are putting on a show to balance the budget on the backs of the ordinary people and maximize the profits of the already rich -- this is the practical face of Capitalism.

BTW, there is a charade going on in D.C. now, the so called Debt Ceiling debate. The money is already spent. They are fighting as though they have a choice whether to pay the bill or not.

These are expenses already voted into law by the previous congress, and the 14th Amendment to the Constitution gives the power to the POTUS to pay all the debt obligations and let congress to go to court to try to stop him, but he won't do it, because he is a Corporatist like all the Republican and most Democrats. He needs the Wall Street money to get reelected.

What Bush couldn't accomplish, namely dismantle Social Security and Medicare, the only two programs that are meant for ordinary people -- the rest are for the Corporate Capitalists -- Obama has already given away according the reports that are leaking out.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Y, the outlook right now is quite bleak. Otherwise rational and nice people somehow transform into serious haters when it comes to Pakistan. An ordinary Pakistani is more likely to face terrorism than an average Indian, yet, Indians hate Pakistanis as though their patriotism depended on it.

Recently I saw a movie Ramchand Paksitani, based on a true story. A Dalit Hindu Pakistani father and son accidentally stray into Indian territory and spend five years in Indian prison before reuniting with the family.

There are enough ordinary people with common decency on both sides, but, unfortunately, it does not take more than just a handful of hatemongers, both Muslim and Hindu, to whip up hatred. Given the uninspiring politicians in India and the U.S., the immediate future is quite bleak.

My hope is, in the long term, these things will work out on the side of justice. There was a time when Rhodesia seemed etched in stone, only to be transformed into Zimbabwe -- the present situation not withstanding. Who in their right mind during Reagan era would have predicted Apartheid will come to an end in our life time? The Israeli brutality upon the Palestinians will also come to an end one way or another. Similarly, the arc of history will bend towards justice for ordinary Kashmiris as well, sooner or later.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

I will be very glad to see your hopes fructifying. But the ground reality, in so far as I have seen, is somewhat different. When I was working in Ahmedabad, I have been able to feel the sub-terranean current of hatred and disbelief in the minds of both the hindus and muslims there. These are ordinary people with no political background or training or affiliation to one party or another; but their dislike for the other and the strong disbelief, drives them towards BJP/RSS or the Congress and other regional political outfits which give semblance of taking care of Muslim interests.

The Muslims consider a marriage of their daughter/s to a Pakistani (Muslim) as a blessing next only to a pilgrimage to Mecca. GOI still allows this if the girl's side produce some evidence (usually this can be cooked up and there are agencies doing this service!) to show their lineage to some Pakistani family or the prospective boy to have some links with Indian family. In many cases the alliance is within the family, arising out of an Indian-Pakistani marriage of 30 years or so back. In short, for many Muslims in Gujarat settling down in the Shariat soil of Pakistan is a dream realized.

Thus, to me, the root cause underlying the India-Pakistan hatred is religious intolerance and to the extent I have learnt, the major blame for this extreme polarisation goes to Gandhi, the original because he was also intolerant to a large extent, to sane ideas and suggestions because he was immensely self-opinionated.